Runner's Companion, Whacha think? Options

[Stahlseele]

like that it seems as if trolls are the new master race, at least when building with karma *g*

[CanRay]

Or dealing with the Spikes.

But my group had something to say about that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Malicant]

like that it seems as if trolls are the new master race, at least when building with karma *g*

They were the master race in the BP system already, I am not surprised this did not change with the Karma generation system.

[Stahlseele]

and here i thought orks had been the master race with the build point system O.o

[Cthulhudreams]

Trolls are only the master race if you think strength is actually worth the same as a point of agility or body.

Except its patently not, because the game has guns, while everyone takes damage and wears armour.

[BookWyrm]

I'll have to wait until the end of the month. Cash is a little tight right now.

[Stahlseele]

someone just threw in the idea of creating a free spirit using the karma system in another thread, beause spirit is effectively your metatype you won't be paying any karma for that . . so your complete karma can go into other things O.o

[Tiger Eyes]

The good
Lifestyles are back. WHEW. I so missed you! Some decent new toys in the lifestyle and survival section. A few questions left open, as always, and I seriously wonder why all those style advantages and disadvantages are gone (I miss terrific view and disgusting neighbourhood), but it's good to have them back regardless.

You can blame any missing lifestyle qualities on Synner. He's got all these issues with wordcount and whips us freelancers when we try to sneak in fun extra things like "Horrible View" and its cousin, "Terrific View." His red pen is probably smoking from overuse. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Oh, well. We still stuck in quite a few lifestyle qualities. You can always play build-a-quality:
Terrific View: 1 pt.
Disgusting Neighborhood -1 pt. Maybe -2 pt depending on just how disgusting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

Convienient Bar: 1-Point Positive Lifestyle Quality

Your local watering hole is within easy stumbling distance to home, with few places for a mugger to lie in wait.

[Ancient History]

For two points does it have comfortable gutters?

[Cadmus]

no no it should be, Convienient Bar: +1 point Positive Lifestyle Quality but it should incure negitive modfiers to your addiction tests (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tiger Eyes]

For two points does it have comfortable gutters?

Indeed. So comfortable that a whole family of Devil Rats has taken up residence. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tycho]

To come back to Karma CharGen:

as noted in the other thread, if you make a free spirit with Karma rules, you don't pay 250BP and still get massive Boni of being a spirit. I think some Karma cost for the race are really needed, maybe only BP in Karma instead of BP*2 in Karma.

cya
Tycho

[Muspellsheimr]

Got it in one. Humans have a slight advantage in KarmaGen as they can get higher attributes while spending less points than metahumans, which is part of the reason the cost for race is waived. The real slam-dunker is skills, though.

Humans are at the greatest disadvantage over all the other races in the Karma creation system. For example, an Elf (for free) gains 15 Karma worth of Attributes & Low Light Vision, and looses 6 points of Special Attributes (Edge). For no cost.

Lets now compare a Troll to a Human. The Troll has the same cost for raising his low attributes (up to their maximum, which was always a limitation), but has significantly reduced cost for raising their high attributes. Example: A Human will pay 60 Karma for Body 6. The Troll will pay 18 (with no other costs), and will still be able to raise it higher if he so chooses, while the human is maxed out.

How much you increase an attribute by is irrelevant. What you increase it to is what matters, and with no racial cost for the metatypes, they have a significant advantage - especially Trolls & Pixies, as they receive the greatest benefit with the least cost (reduced maximum means little in the Karma system). I'm not even going to start on Free Spirits in the Karma system as written (they go from worst possible option to best possible option).


To all those reading this who can see reason, I strongly suggest implementing a cost of [Racial BP Cost x 2] to play metatypes.

[Jhaiisiin]

You could also make the other races buy up their attributes from 1 to whatever they want, so that 6 Str troll and human would be equal. It would necessitate a minimum expenditure of karma to reach the racial minimums, and that in of itself could be a balancing factor, though may be too harsh.

Even so, that still makes Free Spirit karma generation a fantastic thing.

[Muspellsheimr]

That system, although good at first glance, would completely screw up the values of various races with special abilities - as those are not taken into account.

I would actually suggest the above [Racial BP Cost x 2], but with an alteration to how advancement works. You buy your attributes on the 1-6 scale, then apply racial modifiers. So a Troll going from 5 to 6 Body will cost the same as a Human going from 1 to 2, but their cost to increase Charisma from 1 to 2 would be the same as a Human increasing it from 3 to 4 (minimum attribute of 1, so Trolls would start with 3-2 = 1, not 1-2 = -1).

Regarding Free Spirits, their cost is fucked up. Simple as that. Once I get around to doing the math & play testing it (if I ever do), I will post what I believe a reasonable cost would be. As an initial estimate, after looking at their abilities & losses, I would say around 150 BP.

[Tycho]

You buy your attributes on the 1-6 scale, then apply racial modifiers. So a Troll going from 5 to 6 Body will cost the same as a Human going from 1 to 2, but their cost to increase Charisma from 1 to 2 would be the same as a Human increasing it from 3 to 4 (minimum attribute of 1, so Trolls would start with 3-2 = 1, not 1-2 = -1).

That will boost metatypes with high attr. boni...

I think a race cost is necessary, but the Attr should be paid for the actual rating.

the best solution would be:

every Race costs the attr. karma cost for their attr. minimum plus a fixed karma cost for their race bonus. But this would result in new karma cost for every race, but it takes much effort. A fixed cost Race BP*2 in Karma should work well.

Free Spirits aren't concerning me much, because they a just a very rare char option. In the most groups they won't ever be played.

cya
Tycho

[Malicant]

So, how many characters have you already made using KarmaGen?
It really strikes me as odd that you don't pay for being a Meta, but on the other hand... they had playtesting, so they maybe put some tought into it. I'm not houseruling anything before I'm absolutly sure the rules do not work or are to annyoing to use as written.

But it's really amusing how everyone knows a first glance that a houserule is needed. Kind of an insult to the people who made those rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[Muspellsheimr]

I have been playing around with Karma-based character generation long before Runners Companion. Further, I have made several concept-characters with the rules as presented in Runners Companion. What I can say with absolute certainty is that a character built with 750 Karma is significantly more powerful than a 400 BP character. 600 Karma produces characters approximately comparable to 400 Build Points, while virtually eliminating min/maxing, & usually resulting in more rounded characters.

Further, with no direct cost for playing a metatype (not even looking into the more powerful ones from Runners Companion), said metatypes produced with the RAW Karma generation system are more powerful than a human equivalent. Further, they are not balanced with each other. How much more powerful depends on the metatype - Trolls receive much greater benefit from RAW Karma creation than Elves.

Once again, I have gone over the numbers & made test characters. I cannot yet say for certain if my proposed alterations fix the issue, but I can say that the system is broken as is.

[Cthulhudreams]

I wish I knew they why they included karmagen, but not BP advancement, when BP is clearly the superior system as it has linear costs and thus is much less annoying to deal with.

[Muspellsheimr]

Linear costs is precisely the reason why I dislike the Build Point system. It is much easier to go from 'Unaware' to 'Novice' in a skill than it is to go from 'Expert' to 'Master'. Linear advancement costs have no logical sense behind them, & there is no game play advantage to them. "Much less annoying" is never an issue that I have run into, and should never be an issue for anyone after the first 5 minutes. If you have a problem with the calculations, simply create a cheat-sheet - Rating 3 costs X (total), Rating 7 costs Y (total). While I created such a sheet once, I have never had any need to use it.

[Cardul]

I wish I knew they why they included karmagen, but not BP advancement, when BP is clearly the superior system as it has linear costs and thus is much less annoying to deal with.

Simple answer: Knowing how Karma Chargen works, you can easily apply Standard Answer #1 to the BP advancement, allowing players to trade in 2 Karma for 1 BP, now that you know that, officially, 2 Karma approximates 1 BP. Interestingly, this results in an interesting situation where, using BP Advancement, it always costs 50 Karma to get the max in an attribute, while, with Karma Advancement, for, say, humans, it costs only 18 Karma or, even if the maximum is 11, it would only cost 33 Karma.

[Starmage21]

Linear costs is precisely the reason why I dislike the Build Point system. It is much easier to go from 'Unaware' to 'Novice' in a skill than it is to go from 'Expert' to 'Master'. Linear advancement costs have no logical sense behind them, & there is no game play advantage to them. "Much less annoying" is never an issue that I have run into, and should never be an issue for anyone after the first 5 minutes. If you have a problem with the calculations, simply create a cheat-sheet - Rating 3 costs X (total), Rating 7 costs Y (total). While I created such a sheet once, I have never had any need to use it.

On the flip side, it's alot easier to deal with such linear systems. Theres no over-complication by math that changes at every level like the karma system does.

[Malicant]

It's a sad day when basic algebra is considered over-complication. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)

[CanRay]

See what our educational system has lead us to!

All the kids want to do now is slot a chip or get a Math Co-Processor now and have the tech do all the work!