Runner's Companion, Whacha think? Options

[Cthulhudreams]

I thought everyone did excel? The maths is actually quite complex. A typical character will have 20+ variables, which results in a very complex formula to determine total costs.

In a BP system, I can always take one point of a stat and put it into a different stat. I actually prefer the 5 points for a skill group and 2 for a skill because it makes the maths even simpler.

Karmagen has none of that elegant simplity. If I take one point of will on the character I am working on now, that is radically different from taking one point out of body.

[Starmage21]

It's a sad day when basic algebra is considered over-complication. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)

I shouldnt have to do even basic algebra. I'm really good at math actually, but that doesnt mean i have the patience for it.

[CanRay]

Bah! Kids today, no staying power for mental exercises! *Waves walker in random threatening directions*

[Aaron]

For those who want to use the Karma build system (or something similar) but don't feel they have the ability or patience to do the calculations repeatedly, might I suggest creating a look-up table? I'd suggest columns of Skill Ratings, Attribute Ratings, and ... er ... I guess that's it. Rows would be 1 through 6 or 7.

It's what software engineers do when CPU time is at a premium.

[Malicant]

I thought everyone did excel? The maths is actually quite complex. A typical character will have 20+ variables, which results in a very complex formula to determine total costs.

This is a joke, right? Please, someone tell this is a joke.

I shouldnt have to do even basic algebra. I'm really good at math actually,[...]

I really have to doubt that after reading

but that doesnt mean i have the patience for it.

Ignoring the fact that a BP system still is basic algebra, I don't think anyone can be good at anything basic if he needs patience to perform it.

I agree that multiplying numbers is more complicated then simply adding values, but crying over-complication is plain silly.
And I prefer KarmaGen over anything else on every day, no surpriese here, I guess.

[CanRay]

I swear, calculators will be the ruin of mathematical ability!

Hell, they already have been!

[Ancient History]

I cannot yet say for certain if my proposed alterations fix the issue, but I can say that the system is broken as is.

Heh. Okay, here's the issue - BP chargen uses straight costs for buying everything, whereas karma improvement increases geometrically, and we wanted players to be able to use standard karma improvement right off the bat with KarmaCharGen. To take attributes as an example:

CODE

BP  Karma  Attribute
(0)  (0)       1 (Default)
10    6        2
10    9        3
10    12       4
10    15       5
10    18       6
10    21       7
10    24       8
10    27       9
10    30       10

Now, it's fairly easy to notice that at 2 Karma per BP (i.e. 10 BP = 20 Karma), each improvement below 6 is actually cheaper than the BP advancement, while each improvement above 6 is actually more expensive than the BP advancement. The math gets a little hairier when you add in the 15 BP cap for maxing out an attribute in BP advancement, but leave that aside for the nonce.

You can see the immediate issue concerns the two outliers - trolls and humans (despite the other character options presented in RC, the major concern was with the five principal metahuman options). Humans essentially get all their attributes cheaper than in the BP, while trolls simply wouldn't have enough points to max out a single attribute without major sacrifices, or at least increasing the fraction of their Karma they could devote to attributes. Dwarfs, elves, and orks suffer the same problems to a lesser degree.

One option was to simply have metahuman attribute modifiers - everyone could buy their attributes up from 1 to 5 (and one 6) and then apply the modifiers. This was eventually decided against primarily because in early playtest it seemed against the spirit of the rest of the "let's just use karma improvement from chargen" angle, metahumans were overpowered, and many players were stuck buying up an attribute only to have to subtract a point from the metahuman attribute modifiers (remember, it's the minimums and the maximums that count!)

The other option was to increase how much Karma metahumans could spend on their attributes so that the players could (if they chose), max out a single attribute at chargen as in the BP system. The solution deemed most elegant was adding the converted racial cost to the amount you could spend on attributes. There were other factors in the decision, natch, but that was a primary one.

There is potential for abuse by working the system - 750 Karma was finally settled on as "default" because of the attribute calculations; 400 Karma (the standard limitation for points spent on attributes in BPCharGen is half of the initial pool of BP, which for a 400 BP game is 200 BP, which when converted is 400 Karma) was too much for humans, not enough for trolls (creating a character approximately equivalent to its BPCharGen counterpart), but with the "metahuman rider" for attributes it worked out so I dropped the default down to 750. I could have gone further, but playtest seemed happy with 750 for the most part (aside from the one guy that insisted his 400 Karma character was better than anything he could make with 400 BP).

So, there's some of the reasoning behind it for ya at least.

[Starmage21]

I really have to doubt that after reading

??? That some kind of poorly veiled personal attack? Seems at the very least non sequitur since not liking something /= a lack of ability

[Moon-Hawk]

My thoughts on RC: I really like it. There is a ton of stuff I plan to use. There are a few things I probably won't ever use, but I'm okay with that, at least I know where to start if I decide I do want to use them. There are more than a few things that I can't wait to use. All in all I think its a great book. My thanks to everyone who worked on it.

Sorry, but I really haven't found anything to complain about. Granted, I haven't read every word yet, and I haven't triple checked the math, but overall I like what I see.
Oh, and I love the cover.

[Ryu]

=WENN(namecell="";"";WENN(ISTFEHLER(FINDEN("(Group)";$namecell));(ratingcell*(ratingcell+1)/2+1)*2;(rating cell*(ratingcell+1)/2+1)*5))

Took a lesson from the excel sheet in the community section. Put Group in the skillname and it calculates accordingly.

[Isath]

The math gets a little hairier when you add in the 15 BP cap for maxing out an attribute in BP advancement

wasn't that 25?

However, as see it every system can be exploited. Actually having to make a system tight enough that it will not be exploited an thereby limiting it more than it would be fun to, is the most complex exploit I guess. However, I think the karma system is simply different, and thus an option, like everything else. Mostly the ST will decide which system the characters will be setup by, how many points are to spend and that's it. I have to admit though, I do not have to set up new characters all that often, so maybe I do not care enough.

I think everyone of the three systems is viable. Personaly I like the mix of simplicity and complexity of the BP system the most. The priority-system will take the third spot, as I think its a bit to stiff.

[Ryu]

I shouldnt have to do even basic algebra. I'm really good at math actually, but that doesnt mean i have the patience for it.

Dude! We are going to have the sweetest and most comfortable character generator EVER! Remember your rumours.

[Starmage21]

<threadjack>
now theres something I can get into. need a C# programmer?
</threadjack>

[Aaron]

wasn't that 25?

Nope, it's 15. The 10 is already there for the stat increase, plus an extra 15 for it being the cap. The total is 25, but you'd only add 15 to get it there.

[Ryu]

<threadjack>
now theres something I can get into. need a C# programmer?
</threadjack>

There are strong indications that we might get such (link) a toy. Which would so totally be a must-buy!

[Muspellsheimr]

Okay, Ancient, I am not arguing that the various metatypes should have an increased allocation for what they can spend on attributes. If you go with the default post-modified attribute, instead of my proposed pre-modified for determining advancement costs, it makes sense and is appropriate. The problem lies with not charging for metatypes in the Karma system. Allow me to demonstrate.

For this we will use Human vs. Elf. It is a simple comparison because the elf has no penalties to their attributes. We will use the lowest stat line necessary for the comparison - Agility 2, Charisma 3, Edge 2.

Elf:
Agility 2 - 0 Karma
Charisma 3 - 0 Karma
Edge 2 - 6 Karma
Total: 6 Karma

Human:
Agility 2 - 6 Karma
Charisma 3 - 15 Karma
Edge 2 - 0 Karma
Total: 21 Karma

Elf has a maximum of 7 Agility, Human has a maximum of 7 Edge = balanced
Elf has a maximum of 8 Charisma, Human has no comparable advantage = unbalanced
Elf has Low-Light Vision, Human has no comparable advantage = unbalanced

Elf costs 6 Karma, Human costs 21.

So, playing a Human, you pay 15 Karma more than an Elf to simply equal them Attribute-wise, with lesser advantages.

Conclusion: The only reason I would ever play a Human in the Karma generation system is if I desired an Edge attribute of 8, as in every other way possible, an Elf is both superior and cheaper.

Let us just glimpse the Troll & Ork. Their lower attribute maximums only ever become an issue if you have a concept that those attributes are important for. They do not increase the cost for advancement at all. So, compared to a Human, they are significantly cheaper to achieve a strong base Attribute line for a position they are suited for. Further, they have significantly greater potential advancement.


Now, once again I ask - how did you ever reach the conclusion this is balanced?

[Ancient History]

There were a number of factors to the decision. The attributes and point costs were one thing - if you charge and raise the cap on attributes, it's like a double-whammy on the metahumans. By contrast, by not charging for metatype two things immediately become apparent: metatypes become much more attractive an option, and the outliers change because the metahumans suddenly have "free points." The former is very attractive from both a game designer and a player's point of view, the latter less so - because, as you pointed out, you can build a "minimum" metahuman character cheaper. Part of the appeal of "free races" is that there is no direct cost attached to the decision, which encourages people to play what they really feel like playing, as opposed to playing what they can afford.

However, to be fair you have to look at the whole picture. For the cost of your elf raising Charisma from 6 to 8 (at chargen, after chargen is another ballgame), a human character could raise three attributes from 4 to 5. Metahumans that don't go for reaching their higher attributes spend less than humans, but those that do exceed 6 pay a lot more. This effectively moves the bulk of the characters to strive for the 5-6 range in attributes, with a couple people taking lower attributes to free up points for expensive qualities or skills, and a couple people splurging to start out the game with Strength 10.

Your example looks at the low end of the scale, which is why it gives a worst-case scenario. Most players honestly won't try to start a game with those kind of attributes, and the biggest appeal there is for foward-thinking munchkins. I know that's more of a psychological answer than a mathematical one, so consider that the costs after chargen are the same as those during chargen, which means that the disparity evens out. For the elf that starts with Charisma 3 to get up to Charisma 8 after chargen would cost 90 Karma - a human that maxes out their own Charisma (with Exceptional Attribute) would still have 24 Karma in-game to spare on other things, and that is balanced.

[Malicant]

??? That some kind of poorly veiled personal attack? Seems at the very least non sequitur since not liking something /= a lack of ability

No, it's not veiled at all. I pretty much said in plain sight that I doubt you are good at math, if basic algebra needs you to have patience.

There is also no point continuing this, since a) I already said what needed to be said and b) I have no interest in bringing Mod-Heat down on myself.

[Cthulhudreams]

Bleh. It is more complex. Yes I have done two years of tertiary maths and while not a HD average, I certainly passed.

And yes, when simulating circuits I use pspice rather than calculating it by hand, because I'm not an idiot. Nor do I do financial modeling with changeable assumptions with a pen and paper. Instead, I prefer excel.

And indeed, rather than manually doing finite element analysis I use solidworks, rather than by hand.

Why the hell would anyone do anything manually when you have access to a perfectly good tool?

Anyway, now we are talking about ninja maths skills - I can actually do the entire calculation for an optimized BP character in my head with reference to a book except for equipment. I cannot do it with karmagen or karma advancement (where i've mostly had to do it) because of the changeable scales making it to difficult to remember all the possible variables.

[Malicant]

You are using a perfectly good tool, yet you call it complex. I do it manualy, juggle numbers in my brains and make notes with a pen. Weird. I use simple tools and simple it is what I do. And yet I have to encounter the problems you seem to have.

I'm really starting to feel good about myself and for that I want to sincerely thank you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

[Cthulhudreams]

Yeesh. Whats a single advantage of the karma gen system, aside from having very poor rules for the managing of metatypes which is I suppose an advantage if you want to break the game? BP unquestionably has simpler numbers and is therefore superior in every way as it already includes solutions by default for the the problems AH outlines previously.

Oh, and it breaks all the starting adventures because as pointed out previously, it results in significantly more powerful characters.

Why is it so mcuh better again? Worse rules + more complex maths = failure.

[Ancient History]

Multiplication is just an addition problem, that's not complex math.

For the advantages, there are three:
1) A single system for character creation and advancement.
2) For the real detail-minded player, there are subtle advantages in building characters, such as the cost of specializations and the like.
3) Nearly all the character options are equally encouraged.

[Cthulhudreams]

I'm not sure how BP advancement does not provide all three advantages, while having linear mathematics and not breaking the game with regards to metatypes?

Maybe you'd care to elobrate?

Edit: And yeah... I agree with muspellsheimr Unless you want edge 8, or are planning a character with agility and charisma 1, there is no possible reason to play a human over an elf ever under karmagen.

I suppose making humans utterly useless does enhance people's desire to play metatypes?

[Muspellsheimr]

Ancient, you seem not to grasp the point - it does not matter by how much you raise an Attribute, what matters is the final value. In literally any character build that has 2+ Agility & 3+ Charisma, playing an Elf will always be cheaper, with more additional advantages, than a human of the equivalent Attribute level.

Further, your example of the cost of an Elf raising their Charisma from 6 to 8 - guess what. A Human can raise three attributes from 4 to 5. The elf can raise three attributes from 4 to 5, or Charisma from 6 to 8. The Elf has more options than the Human, without loosing any of those available to the Human.

Using the Karma system, make any Human character you want with 2+ Agility, 3+ Charisma, and under 7 Edge. I will equal the exact same build with an Elf, with an additional skill at rating 3. Even more, if you choose not to have eye replacement, said elf will have yet another advantage over the human.

Make any Human character with a maximum Reaction of 5, Edge 6, and I will once again create an identical Dwarf character for cheaper.

Low end scale or high, it does not matter. Sure it costs an Elf to go from 7 to 8 Charisma than a Human to go from 5 to 6. If the Human, through various means, is capable of reaching a natural Charisma of 8, it will cost them the same amount to raise it that last point, plus the cost to raise it from 1 to 3 (Elf does not pay this).

3) Nearly all the character options are equally encouraged.

False. Every metatype in the book is encouraged over a Human in the Karma generation RAW. Sure if you are playing a Face, you may prefer a Human over a Troll, but an Elf is by far the better option.


EDIT: Ancient, I extend my challenge. Using the 750 Karma character generation, RAW, make any Human character you want, excepting Edge of 7 or 8. I will, using the exact same system, create an Dwarf, Elf, Ork, or Troll that, mechanically, equals or exceeds your Human in every way. Further, my metatype will exceed your character in a minimum of one way. I will not use any of the Variants from Runners Companion, nor will I use any of the new Sapient Races. I will only use 'Racial' Qualities that you use (SURGE, for example). Your one restriction is to not use any Human-only qualities, such as Vampire, & the previously mentioned Edge of 7+.

[FlashbackJon]

So, in other words, aside from metatype, the karma system rocks.

Just assign an arbitrary number to the metatype of your choice in your game and get on with it.