Runner's Companion, Whacha think? Options

[Cthulhudreams]

No, 750 karma makes for insane characters. As my excel sheet of awesome creates a karma cost, i can see that a 556 BP character I had worked up for a game only costs 691 karma. (I'd initially created him as 400 BP character with the frank houserules boxes ticked, so I just unticked them)

See the massive power boost that happened there?

See how hugely massive it was? And I didn't even try and optimize for effect.

Edit: Sorry, I wasn't calculating specializations correctly, so the correct costs are 561 BP = 697 karma.

Intense!

i can get 588 BP worth of bonuses for 697 karma if I make him a troll too. Significantly tougher due to extra body as well.

[Muspellsheimr]

As I mentioned earlier, 400 Build Points approximates out to 600 Karma. Because of the different advancement scales, it will not be exact, but close enough to work with.

I have a 400 Build Point character, that I decided to create with 750 Karma instead just to see how she looked. Nothing was lower. Well over half her attributes & skills had increased by a minimum of 1 point, several as many as 3. Contacts got better. She had more money to spend. She had an additional Positive Quality.

As has obviously been mentioned, a 750 Karma character is far more powerful than a 400 Build Point character. If you choose to use this system as RAW, you had better increase your players opposition by at least 20%

Did I mention she was Human? The least efficient race in the Karma system?

[Cthulhudreams]

Can someone just confirm for me what the money karma ratio is under karmagen?

[Sir_Psycho]

It's a sad day when basic algebra is considered over-complication. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)

Fun police.

[Muspellsheimr]

1 Karma = 2,500 Nuyen. 100 Karma to Nuyen limit.

[Ancient History]

Muspellsheimr, we don't seem to be communicating. Let's try this again.

Yes, if your non-human character sticks to attributes less than 6, they are going to have more Karma after buying attributes than human characters - because they have higher minimums. However, metahumans also have higher maximums, and those maximums are costly to obtain. If players want to have metahuman characters that are strictly within human limits, they can do that, but in my opinion they are missing out.

A troll with Strength 5 is going to be the weakest troll on the block, an elf with Charisma 3 is going to be the fugliest booger-eating elf in the 'hood. This is true whether you're using KarmaCharGen or BPCharGen - whether the human pays 21 Karma or 30 BP. When metahumans buy attributes over 6, the costs balance out.

EDIT: Ancient, I extend my challenge. Using the 750 Karma character generation, RAW, make any Human character you want, excepting Edge of 7 or 8. I will, using the exact same system, create an Dwarf, Elf, Ork, or Troll that, mechanically, equals or exceeds your Human in every way. Further, my metatype will exceed your character in a minimum of one way. I will not use any of the Varients from Runners Companion, nor will I use any of the new Sapient Races. I will only use 'Racial' Qualities that you use (SURGE, for example). Your one restriction is to not use any Human-only qualities, such as Vampire.

Bugger that. Here's my counter challenge: have your group use the Karma system to build new characters and have fun playing them.

[Cthulhudreams]

1 Karma = 2,500 Nuyen. 100 Karma to Nuyen limit.

Thanks, thats what I had. A bit more fiddling gives me 626 BP character for 749 karma just by ramping up the previous characters skills.

lol, thats a HUGE power increase.

@Ancient: That effect is prelevant across the entire system of karmagen. You are encouraged to have more lower numbers whether its attributes or skills because of the scaling costs. Metahumans just illustrate it very clearly.

[hyzmarca]

Basically, the three creation systems have different balances, and they're supposed to have different balances.

Each system can be min-maxed in its own unique way. The default assumption is that it won't be, that each will be used to create similar characters. And in that the systems all work.

The karma system is built on the assumption that some people will be using it to make Body 10 trolls (that's 120 BP for one stat) or similar. The costs and limits are designed to allow them to do so. It also allows people who choose lower numbers to become extremely diverse, far more diverse than is possible under BP. This is a feature, not a bug.

BP encourages min-maxing (and always has)
Karma encourages diversity (and always has)
I'm not yet sure what Priority encourages.


But things do get really crazy if you use Karma to create a dragon character using the leaked rules.

[Ancient History]

This is one of the reasons I suggested a single group not mix characters put together with different systems.

[Muspellsheimr]

Muspellsheimr, we don't seem to be communicating. Let's try this again.

Yes, if your non-human character sticks to attributes less than 6, they are going to have more Karma after buying attributes than human characters - because they have higher minimums. However, metahumans also have higher maximums, and those maximums are costly to obtain. If players want to have metahuman characters that are strictly within human limits, they can do that, but in my opinion they are missing out.

A troll with Strength 5 is going to be the weakest troll on the block, an elf with Charisma 3 is going to be the fugliest booger-eating elf in the 'hood. This is true whether you're using KarmaCharGen or BPCharGen - whether the human pays 21 Karma or 30 BP. When metahumans buy attributes over 6, the costs balance out.

I am not arguing this. What I am arguing is the mechanical advantage of playing a metahuman because they lack an associated cost.

It does not matter how strong or weak they are in comparison to their own race. What matters is how strong or weak they are in comparison to other races. With no cost necessary to play a metahuman, with the same character creation resources, they will always be more powerful than the Human equivalent.

If I can create a Troll with the exact same stats as a Human, and then some, with the same allocation of resources, who gives a shit if he is supposedly the weakest Troll on the block - he is clearly, without any doubt, superior to said Human. And this is a fucking serious problem with game balance. Now, if using the Karma system RAW, the only reason you would ever have to play a Human is 1: Edge 7 or 8, or 2: flavor or concept. Either way, your Human will be weaker than the metahumans in the group. Such a system is punishing a player for wanting to play a certain type of character.

Once again, as an example (just an example - no math behind it), if you can create a Human with skills X, Y, & Z all at 4 each, and Attributes all at 4, and for the exact same cost create an Elf with skills X, Y, Z, & N all at 4 each, and seven Attributes at 4, one at 7, tell me - why would you play the Human? The Elf can equal anything the Human can do, and then some.

This is a core flaw in proper balance of the Karma character generation system, and must be fixed before it can be reasonably used.



Once again, to demonstrate this, I challenge you to create any Human character you wish. Only things you are not allowed to use are Edge 7 or 8, or Human-Only Qualities, such as Vampire.

I will then make a character of one of the four basic metatypes that will first equal everything your Human is capable of, and then surpass him in at least one area, for equal or less Karma.

Use the 750-point Karma character generation, as written.



If your entire group wants to play as Humans, go for it. Same if they all want to be Trolls, or all Elves. There is no problem. But as soon as you begin playing with mixed metatypes, the Trolls will always be superior to the Humans, regardless of how they compare to other Trolls.

[Coldan]

I see your point, Ancient, but at last, you will have to play your character a long, long time to see these effects, while you see the effects we mentioned immediatly at the generation of the characters. It's the point of view and most players will always look at the generation first. The karma based generation system is very nice at last and I also see your point at the BP system, the metatypes are stronger than human, perhaps we didn't notice it this much, because we didn't see the karma costs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Perhaps somebody should programm a character generator with all the stuff in now and shows BP and Karma costs.


The priority system works nice, if you want to get a fast character without looking for much equipment or using precalculated equipment lists. I think with a little bit work for the equipment lists, it will be great at conventions to get newbies to your table (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


@ Muspellsheimr
Get it, the metatypes were always better than humans. Increasing the Strength of a troll from 5 to 6 is worth 10 BP or 18 Karma. Increasing the Strength of a human is also worth 10 BP but only 6 Karma. Every point is also worth 12 Karma more and they don't pay for it! Elf have got the worse BP/ Advantages relationship, they get 1 point at Agility, 2 points at charisma and lose 1 point of edge, but costs 30 BP. At last, every point of Agility is worth 3 more karma (ok, you can set this even to the edge of the human) and every point Charisma is worth 6 points more Karma!
If you want to hunt down the disadvantages of the humans, begin with the BP system, not with the new karma system, which only shifts the point of view.

[Ancient History]

M, you're not reading me on this. You are literally getting tunnel vision on this one. Let me give an example:

Only things you are not allowed to use are Edge 7 or 8, or Human-Only Qualities, such as Vampire.

These essentially are the mechanical advantages of humans in Shadowrun. Subtract these and you might as well label it "any metahuman."

What you're kvetching about is the perceived point disadvantage of humans under the KarmaCharGen system. The thing you're buggering on about is the perceived "something for nothing" that metahumans get - and you're right, if metahumans stay within normal human limits (1-6), they have more points to spend. However, as soon as metahumans exceed those limits, the balance changes.

This is really one of the reasons we went with 750 Karma instead of 600 - I can tell you there was a lot of argument back and forth on that one, but the costs didn't balance right for expensive attributes.

[Cthulhudreams]

The current excel chargen spreadsheet from the community forums already shows costs in both BP and Karma

it by default assumes that your playing 2 x BP in karma for a metatype, but its easy enough to just change that cost to 0 - there is a handy box provided to do exactly that.

to show that the point about stats over 6 is poorly made - we have a large repository of characters down in 'welcome to the shadows' and the majority do not have stats of 6, let alone more.

[DreadPirateKitte...]

Ancient:

I think the complaint here is that you can do all the stuff a human can do, but better, or, you can do stuff a human can never do, your choice.

The human, on the other hand, can have good luck, or be a vampire. Or, he can be statistically worse than a metahuman, his choice.

Costing equal Karma but having lower stats, is NOT, and I do repeat, NOT, an advantage, no matter what anyone claims. Further, stating that things equal out if a metahuman buys a 10, while you get a couple of 5's points out the absurdity.

Mind you, humans blow under BP also, so lets not lay this dog all at your feet.

[Ancient History]

Keep in mind that "stats are bad" in this case is basically equivalent to six 4's and four 5's in your main ten stats if you choose to pay for it - an equivalent value of 280 BP in your standard character generation, and thats not choosing to max any stat.

[DreadPirateKitte...]

But nobody I know ever maxes a stat, since its a terrible gain, spending way too many resources for way too little gain.

Also, doing the math:

Human: Body:4(27) Agi:5(42) Rea:4(27) Str:4(27) Cha:4(27) Int:4(27) Log:4(27) WP:4(27) Edge:5(42) 273 karma
Troll: Body:6(18) Agi:4(27) Rea:5(42) Str:6(18) Cha:3(15) Int:4(27) Log:4(27) WP:5(42) Edge:5(42) 258 karma

Troll also gets +1 natural armor, +1 reach, Thermographic vision, and some RP penalties for being a troll...or RP bonuses, if you like that sort of thing.

So, less karma, for significantly better stats, AND, a bunch of additional bennies? Wow.

[DreadPirateKitte...]

The human is actually paying 15 karma to not have: +1 natural armor, +1 reach, Thermographic vision.

AND has 2 less body and 2 less strength and 1 less wp, while having 1 more agi and 1 more cha.

[Muspellsheimr]

M, you're not reading me on this. You are literally getting tunnel vision on this one. Let me give an example:

These essentially are the mechanical advantages of humans in Shadowrun. Subtract these and you might as well label it "any metahuman."

What you're kvetching about is the perceived point disadvantage of humans under the KarmaCharGen system. The thing you're buggering on about is the perceived "something for nothing" that metahumans get - and you're right, if metahumans stay within normal human limits (1-6), they have more points to spend. However, as soon as metahumans exceed those limits, the balance changes.

This is really one of the reasons we went with 750 Karma instead of 600 - I can tell you there was a lot of argument back and forth on that one, but the costs didn't balance right for expensive attributes.

Okay, go ahead and have 7 or 8 Karma, if you so choose. Instead of my character being better at one or two things & equal at the rest, he will be slightly worse off one one thing (Edge), and much better at a minimum of one or two other things. I still exclude Vampires & similar, because once you become one, you are no longer really Human. You argue that post-development, the advantage begins to fade. In a way, yes. 5% of 750 is only going to be 2.5% of 1,500. But the hard value - the 15 Karma advantage an Elf has over a Human, will always remain the same. To simulate character advancement as part of this, choose how much Karma we will create our characters with, & what the limits of spending are. 400 Karma, 4,000 Karma. RAW restrictions, no restrictions. Whatever you want. I will still duplicate your Human in every way (except possibly Edge), and exceed him, with the same amount of resources.

By the way, that a Troll can achieve an unaugmented Strength of 10, regardless of cost, is enough for them to have a racial cost. It allows them to exceed a Human's maximum capabilities. If a Human was capable of achieving 10 Strength, it would cost more for them to do so than a Troll. As such, a Troll is not more expensive as you are trying to make out. Not only are they cheaper, they have greater advancement opportunities.

If you continue to argue against this instead of allowing me to demonstrate exactly what the problem is, or somehow provide proof I am wrong, I will simply admit to myself that you have no concept whatsoever of game balance & proceed to ignore you. In regard to this, I will one final time say that regardless of what minimum and maximum values of a range are, 5 will always be greater than 4. And while a Human must pay to achieve 4, a Troll gets 5 for free, under this new system.

@ Muspellsheimr
Get it, the metatypes were always better than humans. Increasing the Strength of a troll from 5 to 6 is worth 10 BP or 18 Karma. Increasing the Strength of a human is also worth 10 BP but only 6 Karma. Every point is also worth 12 Karma more and they don't pay for it! Elf have got the worse BP/ Advantages relationship, they get 1 point at Agility, 2 points at charisma and lose 1 point of edge, but costs 30 BP. At last, every point of Agility is worth 3 more karma (ok, you can set this even to the edge of the human) and every point Charisma is worth 6 points more Karma!
If you want to hunt down the disadvantages of the humans, begin with the BP system, not with the new karma system, which only shifts the point of view.

Under the Build Point system, Humans are more or less equal to the other metatypes. Why, if the metatypes are obviously better? Because with Build Points, said metatype must pay for his advantages. Under the Karma system, they get said advantages free of charge.

You further go on to explain the fundamental flaw of Build Point creation & Karma advancement. They are different systems with different scaling values. As such, they should have been kept separate from the beginning, as it encourages min/maxing, and post-development balance issues.

[DreadPirateKitte...]

Muspel:

The BP system isnt fair to humans. Lets compare a 180 bp ork(+20 for race, so both are 200) to a 200 bp human.

Human: 5 agi, 5 rea, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3 200 bp

Ork: 5 agi, 5 body, 5 str, 4 rea, 3, 3, 3, 3 180 bp attributes, 20 bp race. So, this ork has 20 more bp to spend on stats, if he wants to, or, he can spend elsewhere, since he's already markedly better than the human. Also, he has lowlight vision, for his trouble.

[Muspellsheimr]

Okay, I will try to detail the mis-communication in this argument one more time.

Ancient: You say it costs a Troll more to achieve maximum Strength than it costs a Human to achieve maximum Strength. I agree. I have never disputed this.

Me: I say, 5 Strength is equal to 5 Strength, regardless of how you achieved that score. Trolls get 5 Strength for free with Karma Generation RAW. Humans pay for it.

The game cares about what your attribute value is, not how close to your maximum it is. Because of this, using Karma Generation, the metatypes basically receive free points.

DreadPirate: Yes, the balance is not necessarily there with the Build Point system, but it is far closer than the current Karma system.
In the Build Point system, a metatype pays for it's bonuses. If they pay enough or not is not what I am currently discussing. The point is, said bonuses have a cost associated to them. In the Karma system, they do not. The metatypes receive those bonuses for free.


EDIT: I earlier proposed a system where you use Karma for character generation & advancement, but calculate the costs before metatype adjustments. Although I could be wrong, due to a lack of testing data, I strongly believe this, along with a cost to play said metatypes, would solve these issues. Under this system, A Troll would pay for its bonuses (cost also taking into account its penalties). The cost of raising a Trolls Body from 5 to 6 is the same as raising a Human's Body from 1 to 2; you calculate the cost, then apply racial modifiers. The cost of raising a Trolls Charisma from 1 to 2, however, is greater than a Human doing the same thing, as Trolls receive a -2 to that Attribute.

Ancient said they had considered this idea during development but tossed it out because they wanted Karma Generation & Karma Advancement to use the same costs. I fully agree with their idea - one solid system is better than two different systems (however close they are). What I believe he failed to understand from my suggestion was that determining advancement costs before racial modifiers was intended not only for character generation, but post-generation advancement as well. This may not be an appropriate solution to the problem for an errata, because it would also involve changing the basic character advancement rules.

For now, however, it remains my recommendation, along with a Karma cost for playing the metatypes. The main issue with this concept is that metatype costs may need to be adjusted to account for the advancement changes, which could be difficult to calculate appropriately. Until I get around to said calculations, I would suggest a temporary fix of Build Point cost x 2 Karma to play a non-human species. Who knows - this may turn out to be the most balanced cost after all.

[DreadPirateKitte...]

Keep in mind that "stats are bad" in this case is basically equivalent to six 4's and four 5's in your main ten stats if you choose to pay for it - an equivalent value of 280 BP in your standard character generation, and thats not choosing to max any stat.

The "Your human is more powerful than he would be with bp" only flies if the rest of the party has to use bp. Because as is, the human remains the red-headed stepchild of Shadowrun.

[Ancient History]

Hey now. I resemble that.

[DreadPirateKitte...]

DreadPirate: Yes, the balance is not necessarily there with the Build Point system, but it is far closer than the current Karma system.
In the Build Point system, a metatype pays for it's bonuses. If they pay enough or not is not what I am currently discussing. The point is, said bonuses have a cost associated to them. In the Karma system, they do not. The metatypes receive those bonuses for free.

The Build Point system is not well balanced. Thus it is not surprising that the Karma system is not well balanced. Further, I dont think anyone actually cares, or, feels its a feature. I am not sure why playing a human seems to be discouraged, but it IS mechanically discouraged, the carrot and stick, metahumans get the carrot, and humans get whacked.

If I was GM, I'd either give free gear, free contacts, free stuff, or free attribute points for anyone playing a human. I'd also try and rebalance Ork and Elf, cuz Ork is way too good, and Elf is only good enough for faces and agility based characters.

[Coldan]

Well, at the karma system, you have got a new choice, let them pay for their attributes at the second point, but they have to match the minimum stats of their race.

Don't count the further advantages. Metahumans also get disadvantages, like trolls and dwarfs have to pay 110% for equipment they carry. ("Well, this suit costs 2000 Nuyen, well for you 2200, because you are a dwarf.") There are multiple further disadvantages at roleplay.

[Muspellsheimr]

Yes, Orks are to good. Elves are roughly equal to Humans.

I would also just like to say that while they are not balanced, the Build Point character generation is at least close enough to make Humans playable. In the Karma character generation, you cannot even pretend Humans are comparable to the other metatypes. And because I only ever play Humans, I will never be playing in a RAW Karma generation game, unless the entire group agrees to play as Human.