Runner's Companion, Whacha think? Options

[Arawyn]

This book is so broken that I have actually cancelled my regular SR and group and I am going to take up D&D 4th as being less cheesy. I'm surprised that no one is bitching about how cheesy Born Rich and Restricted Gear are. And those aren't optional. They're core.

Huh, so you are dumping SR4 because of Optional Rules?

The simple fact about books like RC is it should get you thinking. It should get you to review the rules you are currently using and see if you can do anything better.
That is how you improve your games, not by introducing Free Spirits (or Dracoforms (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ), but simply getting you to consider "what could I do better, and does this book give me ideas".

That is why I find this metahuman argument to be complete wank. Anyone with the book has a servicable SURGE system to make their own variants, at the very least a framework to make their own. They just so happened to include examples of how the SURGE system can work (and how the point values are not sacrosanct[i])[/i].

Runners Companion will not ruin anyones game, that can be left to the GM who holds too much importance to the print on the page, instead of what is important to their own game.

The Runners Companion has an opportunity to improve everyone's game, even if you house rule everything you use in it.

The only issue I have with Shadowrun at the moment is the rarity of the books in the stores of Australia. Demand has outstripped supply so much that I have three players who cannot even buy the Core Rules and just heard a national distributor in Australia complaining of their inability to get any decent volume like they were talking about an 16GB iPhone in black.

[Ancient History]

You as involved writer may not have had the intention of bringing back Obsidimen via SURGE and ofc the details of the Drake development wouldn't be the exact same thing one might expect for Obsidimen. However, the claim that their "known" ways of propagation or their spirit-fleshbeing-cross-existance makes it "impossible" that during the course of time the Obsidimen might have experienced a "similar" (not identical) development to Drakes up to a point where some (if not all) of their traits express themselves coming from the "Changeling" / "SURGE" perspective is unsound. I have to suspect that your personal ideas are blocking you there.

And I think you're comparing apples to oranges. You want a knee-jerk out of me, suggest those bones on Mars are from a dragon sometime. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[DreadPirateKitte...]

Dude, Those bones on Mars? They are from a dragon.

Totally.

[Jackstand]

is born rich the 10 BP advantage that lets you take 10 BP more worth of money?

I thought it was absolutely terrible. Yes, I totally want to spend 20 BP on 50k nuyen, thats a good investment.

Wtf?! Its a terrible quality. I'd be fine if it was like.. 10 BP and just gave you the cash - because it limits what you can actually spend on positivity qualities.

Not only does it let you break the regular limits by spending additional points, making it, essentially, like Aptitude, Exceptional Attribute or Lucky, but it gives you a background hook with your apparently wealthy family.

[DreadPirateKitte...]

Why does spending 20 points to get 10 bp worth of resources and a background hook equate to broken?

[Ryu]

Dragons hibernate on Mars. Old news.

*runs*



Obsidimen in SR... I think they might have some choice things to say about SK, MCT and other heavy-industry corporations. Exploiting a liferock for magic or minerals? Hard choice. If you want to bring them back, let their liferock awaken in a deep mine. The drones report funny business as the first obsidimen warriors separate from the Life-Rock and engage, your runners are send to investigate.

[Jackstand]

Why does spending 20 points to get 10 bp worth of resources and a background hook equate to broken?

I actually meant that it's perfectly cool, by me.

[toturi]

Dragons hibernate on Mars. Old news.

I thought they went there for vacation. You know, like Disneyland. Tourism is big business for the Martians.

[Cthulhudreams]

Born Rich lets you go beyond the 50 BP cap on resources during character generation, to 60 BP, breaking the cap that restricts everyone else. Some folks might actually like to have more than 50 BP in stuff/gear/warez when they start the game... this plus Restricted Gear can make for a fun starting character. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

@You and the other poster that said it has hooks etc...

Yeah.. its still not very good mechancially. I mean I can see why you might want to take it, but its pretty much the suck in terms of 'power' which was my orginial point.

If it had some sort of ongoing effect it might be worth it, but really its kinda lame.

Suggest: If your player wants to take it.. just let him spend more BP on gear/stuff/warez/whatever instead of punishing him by making him take a 10 BP advantage before he can engage in behaviour that isn't exactly that hot.

[Cochise]

And I think you're comparing apples to oranges.

And what would be the "apple" and what the "orange"?

You want a knee-jerk out of me, suggest those bones on Mars are from a dragon sometime. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Actually what I want of you is far from such a knee-jerk. Interestingly enough I want something that is pretty much in line with what so far has been the "official" stance on said "dragon" bones on Mars:

Nothing is known for sure. Those might or might not be dragon bones.

What you've been doing here so far is such a knee-jerk: You outright deny the possibility

... for something that can be interpreted as being part of the Obsidimen's return, but could turn out to be something completely different if "you" (as the makers of SR) ever decided to give a more conclusive insight on the reasons behind SURGE and / or should come up with the "return of Obsidimen" (all possible copyright / trademark issues left aside for now).

But hey, who am I to even suggest something like that? ~shrugs~
This just marks the second time for me that someone who made the transition from "fan" to "maker" leaves me with a very bad impression.

[Ancient History]

And what would be the "apple" and what the "orange"?

Drakes and obsidimen.

Actually what I want of you is far from such a knee-jerk. Interestingly enough I want something that is pretty much in line with what so far has been the "official" stance on said "dragon" bones on Mars:

Be fair, so far the official stance has been to not mention them at all.

You outright deny the possibility

Leaving aside for the moment the repeated assertions by the devs (and not lowly freelancers like m'self) that it's too early for obsidimen, I don't deny the possibility of their return - I just point out that it's pretty bloody unlikely they'll return as a SURGE phenomenon because of the particular aspects of their magical nature and biology - if and when obsidimen do show up, I'm pretty sure it's not going to be a human waking up after a three-day coma to find themselves seven feet tall and made of living rock.. In other words, I'm arguing with you using in-game logic and your counterargument is accusing me of going dev on you.

This just marks the second time for me that someone who made the transition from "fan" to "maker" leaves me with a very bad impression.

Now, now. I've always been a bit of a prick. Actually getting paid to write hasn't changed that.

[CanRay]

Now, now. I've always been a bit of a prick. Actually getting paid to write hasn't changed that.

The best kind, too. An honest one.

[Cochise]

Drakes and obsidimen.

Lucky me that the comparison I made was on the level of "fruit" rather than on the level of "apples" and "oranges" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Be fair, so far the official stance has been to not mention them at all.

~hmm~ I was under the impression that the book that brought them into existance itself gave that "answer" ... and I seem to recall answers from "offcials" during interviews / conventions that went straight in that direction. Deny nothing, just leave it open.

Leaving aside for the moment the repeated assertions by the devs (and not lowly freelancers like m'self) that it's too early for obsidimen,

As if the idea that was presented in this thread actually said that the specific SURGE trait was already the return of "true" Obsidimen, right?

I don't deny the possibility of their return - I just point out that it's pretty bloody unlikely they'll return as a SURGE phenomenon because of the particular aspects of their magical nature and biology -

Just as "unlikely" as it was that Drakes made the transition from a magically crafted beings that were unable to reproduce on their own? The particular aspects of their magical nature and biology made that pretty much "unlikely" as well. Yet it "worked". But that's ofc "apples" and "oranges" to you ...

if and when obsidimen do show up, I'm pretty sure it's not going to be a human waking up after a three-day coma to find themselves seven feet tall and made of living rock..

See, I didn't expect such an "easy" way either, but I wouldn't outright deny the possibility or some sort of link between certain Obsidimen-like SURGE-traits and whatever "you guys" finally draw out of the hat to bring them back - provided that it ever happens.

In other words, I'm arguing with you using in-game logic

I guess I have a different perspective on what I consider "in-game logic", because what you used to me is "off-game background information" ... from a different game that already had its precendent of nothing being set in stone with Drakes in conjunction with SR that created its own precedent with SURGE.

and your counterargument is accusing me of going dev on you.

Actually you went "dev" on the thread opener and those who picked up the idea ...

Now, now. I've always been a bit of a prick. Actually getting paid to write hasn't changed that.

The key word for me there being "bit" ...

But I better leave it as it is now ... SR4 is too unimportant and uninteresting to me to continue this argument

[Cadmus]

I shall now proceed in laughing manically. Who shall join me!

[Ancient History]

~hmm~ I was under the impression that the book that brought them into existance itself gave that "answer" ... and I seem to recall answers from "offcials" during interviews / conventions that went straight in that direction. Deny nothing, just leave it open.

I'm fairly certain your impression is incorrect, as there is nothing in Portfolio of a Dragon or the Missions adventure to give that impression.

As if the idea that was presented in this thread actually said that the specific SURGE trait was already the return of "true" Obsidimen, right?

Could you try to rephrase that? I'm having trouble following your meaning.

Just as "unlikely" as it was that Drakes made the transition from a magically crafted beings that were unable to reproduce on their own? The particular aspects of their magical nature and biology made that pretty much "unlikely" as well. Yet it "worked". But that's ofc "apples" and "oranges" to you

Drakes had a mechanism or two in their favor - including the presence of genitalia, Aardelea, and the anecdotal ability of humans to be changed into drakes. Obsidimen lack all three.

But I better leave it as it is now ... SR4 is too unimportant and uninteresting to me to continue this argument

There's a word for people that walk out on a losing argument.

[Ryu]

Just as "unlikely" as it was that Drakes made the transition from a magically crafted beings that were unable to reproduce on their own? The particular aspects of their magical nature and biology made that pretty much "unlikely" as well. Yet it "worked". But that's ofc "apples" and "oranges" to you ...

It didn´t exactly work on its own IIRC. Can´t dig for the source, my earthdawn GM has the books (*getstoplayhappydance").

[Johnny Jacks]

But I better leave it as it is now ... SR4 is too unimportant and uninteresting to me to continue this argument

Not to change the subject... but what's with all the 4th Edition hate around here?

[Stahlseele]

Not to change the subject... but what's with all the 4th Edition hate around here?

ok, that allmost made me perform a knee-jerk-like response-action . .
but then i looked at the clock and lo and behold, officially only 20 minutes untill i get to leave work for home and i don't think it's enough time for me to go into detail where the reasons lie on MY side of the screen . .

[Ryu]

No hate on my part. Best SR system so far, unless I´m missing out on first edition.

[FlashbackJon]

Not to change the subject... but what's with all the 4th Edition hate around here?

Same with DND 4e hate, nWOD hate, Exalted 2E hate, etc.: people hate change. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It'll fade. And then 5th Edition will come out and everyone will reminisce about "the good old days of 4th edition."

[Isath]

I agree, in my opinion SR4 is the best edition of this game so far.

[Cang]

I love SR4e. Also when you run a game (i dont want to sound like im telling you how to gm but) you should consider nothing but what you want core. Yes having certian things in the game will help the mechanics because the game rules are based on that but how many people you know use all sorts of house rules or run a game machanic in a different time line or world. If you want want someone using something (if i have a player who wants a squid head im going to kill him myself) then dont allow it. There aint no way im going to allow people play any of the non meta races unless they have a really good reason and the rest of the group agrees but that is my choice to do that. If i love vampires then i would let a game go with everyone infected and having cults and orgies. Its all optional.

[Rasumichin]

There aint no way im going to allow people play any of the non meta races unless they have a really good reason and the rest of the group agrees but that is my choice to do that.

Now i'm curious.
What is a good reason?

Edit : Excuse me, really good reason, as in REALLY GOOD backstory™.

[Isath]

Right, I think the...

"I hate to be forced, to have options"

...stance is somewhat odd. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[hyzmarca]

Centaur, once frolicked with friends in the forest
Kidnapped by mean men with lassos and electric prods
Violence, beatings, pain
Forced to make demeaning porn sims with all manner of beasts
And then they slip
A three fingered hand finds a gun
An evil man's brain decorates the ugly plywood wall
Freedom