Metavariants just don't add up., Breaking down the point values in the Runner's Companion. Options

[HappyDaze]

I've been looking at the Metavariants in the Runner's Companion along with the point values assigned to the special traits, and some just don't add up. Here are examples of the Ork and Troll Metavariants (excepting the Giant which had a matching Calculated Cost and RAW Cost) to express my point.

Hobgoblin
Ork Metatype: 20 BP
Fangs: 5 BP
Poor Self-Control (Vindictive): -10 BP
Calculated Cost: 15 BP
RAW Cost: 20 BP

Ogre
Ork Metatype: 20 BP
Ogre Stomach: 5 BP
Calculated Cost: 25 BP
RAW Cost: 20 BP

Oni
Ork Metatype: 20 BP
Striking Skin Pigmentation: -5 BP
Calculated Cost: 15 BP
RAW Cost: 25 BP

Satyr
Ork Metatype: 20 BP
Satyr Legs: 10 BP
Calcualted Cost: 30 BP
RAW Cost: 25 BP

Cyclops
Troll Metatype: 40 BP
Cyclopean Eye: -10 BP
Metagenic Improvement (Strength): 20 BP
No Natural Armor: -10 BP
No Thermographic Vision: -5 BP
Calculated Cost: 35 BP
RAW Cost: 45 BP

Fomori
Troll Metatype: 40 BP
Arcane Arrestor: 25 BP
Metagenic Improvement (Body): 20 BP
No Natural Armor: -10 BP
Calculated Cost: 75 BP
RAW Cost: 45 BP

Minotaur
Troll Metatype: 40 BP
Goring Horns: 5 BP
Metagentic Improvement (Body): 20 BP
No Natural Armor: -10 BP
Calculated Cost: 55 BP
RAW Cost: 45 BP

I really hope that this is a mistake, and that the values were not assigned without reference to the values given later in the book. I was hoping to use those Qualities as a menu for creating my own metavariants (or adjusting the ones given), and for that to feel right, I'd like the ones in the book to play nicely with the numbers.

[Ancient History]

Part of the BP value also represents the relative rarity of the character option. Except for that one island in the Aegean, you're not going to find a community of cyclops, minotaurs, and satyrs anytime soon.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Part of the BP value also represents the relative rarity of the character option. Except for that one island in the Aegean, you're not going to find a community of cyclops, minotaurs, and satyrs anytime soon.

How does this impact balance?

Like, at all?

[HappyDaze]

Part of the BP value also represents the relative rarity of the character option.
That's terrible. Point costs should be based upon game effects not fluff-dependent. If a GM wants to reduce rarity, then the metatypes get cheaper even though the alterations are based on game stats? Really dumb...

[HappyDaze]

How does this impact balance?

Like, at all?

I think we're getting back to the "Gee, Rocky, let's see what BP value we can pull out of our hat/ass."

It's really bad for balance. Not that the base metatypes were perfectly balalnced, but they had never built a system for pointing out all of the components to make up the race - now they have done so and they don't even use it. It makes me really doubt the value of it at all.

[VagabondStar]

I like it the idea. From a purely metagame point of view it makes it less efficient...

But realistically, it supports the rarity of those metatypes.

[Ancient History]

I just love to get y'all riled up. In most cases, it's just an issue where it doesn't make sense for the metavariant to be cheaper than the race. I think the cost for Ogres is probably a typo.

[Large Mike]

I love it when rules lawyers get all riled up. "Dude, you didn't carry the one! The world is going to explode! It's going to throw a cramp in my mathematical exercise, the story you're all trying to have be damned! Allow me to reference six different rules and do some math for 45 minutes to show you!"

Holy crap, when did I turn into a crotchety old man?

[Synner]

As Ancient pointed out the Metavariant BP cost does indeed reflect rarity as well as the bonuses (similar to the Ork BP cost in the corebook). This was a design choice and one I stand behind, asking a gamemaster to enforce rarity of metavariant expression without something built into the system poses the same problem as asking a gamemaster to enforce rarity of Awakened characters among his group (which typically leads to the "But the rules say I pay the BP and I'm a magician, what do you mean I can't be a magician because Jack and Jill over there are already playing Awakened?" syndrome.)

[tsuyoshikentsu]

I was actually talking about the Fomori.

What you've essentially done is given it 35 BP worth of positive qualities... for the price of 5. All it loses over the troll is the NA, and considering the Body it gets I'm thinking most are gonna see that as a fair trade. Put differently: in what build where the differences would come into play are things gonna be tight enough that a player won't go with the fomori?

[Zak]

As Ancient pointed out the Metavariant BP cost does indeed reflect rarity as well as the bonuses (similar to the Ork BP cost in the corebook). This was a design choice and one I stand behind, asking a gamemaster to enforce rarity of metavariant expression without something built into the system poses the same problem as asking a gamemaster to enforce rarity of Awakened characters among his group (which typically leads to the "But the rules say I pay the BP and I'm a magician, what do you mean I can't be a magician because Jack and Jill over there are already playing Awakened?" syndrome.)

Sorry, but I can not disagree more here. Fluff should not cost BP or Karma. And Fomori seem to be all over the world (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) , following this 'logic'.

[weblife]

But the base races do not add up either. So what?

Doesn't ordinary Troll also give you 30-35 BP's of goodness, over what you pay for?

From that perspective, the meta-variants above range from mediocre to "acceptable". You get a rebate on the normal races, but here you have a few where you actually pay BP's for being that race, and others where you gain "less" than you could by being a normal ork or troll.

[NightmareX]

I love it when rules lawyers get all riled up. "Dude, you didn't carry the one! The world is going to explode! It's going to throw a cramp in my mathematical exercise, the story you're all trying to have be damned! Allow me to reference six different rules and do some math for 45 minutes to show you!"

Holy crap, when did I turn into a crotchety old man?

Probably right around the same time as me, cause I'm thinking the same thing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[NightmareX]

Put differently: in what build where the differences would come into play are things gonna be tight enough that a player won't go with the fomori?

Easy. The one where I, as a GM (or player for that matter), say "WTF we already have two fomori. No you can't play one, enough's enough".

[tsuyoshikentsu]

But the base races do not add up either. So what?

Doesn't ordinary Troll also give you 30-35 BP's of goodness, over what you pay for?

Which makes the Fomori even more unforgivable. If you're right, that means a Fomori should cost about 105 BP... but it costs 45.

[It trolls!]

From what I got, all metavariants come with Distinctive Style to some degree (unless they're in their "natural habitat") and that's why they get other perks for free.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

From what I got, all metavariants come with Distinctive Style to some degree (unless they're in their "natural habitat") and that's why they get other perks for free.

Oh, so that's what Ancient meant. I hadn't considered the "This crime was committed by a fomori. There are three in Los Angeles." angle.

That's a pretty substantial disadvantage, yeah.

[WearzManySkins]

Under FrankTrollMan's House Rules, the metahuman races have a more balanced BP cost.

I agree the Metavariant BP costs are not to my tastes.

WMS

[Stahlseele]

whut?
when did good ole frankie-boy put out rules for that? O.o
i must have missed those with his matrix-rules again and again ^^

[toturi]

I do not have RC as yet, but from what I have read, I like the new metavariants.

Real life's unfair. Life in Shadowrun is even more unfair. Some people just have more than what they pay for.

But even considering game balance™ for a minute, I recall a conversation I had with a friend. With a fixed BP for everyone, the higher the BP costs of single item, then more it must pay off. Why? Because "all dragon charactors look alike!" The reason is that you pay for the flexibility of that lower BP cost affords you.

While I respect Frank's work and enjoy reading his house rules, I find that one of the things that appeals to me concerning Shadowrun is that certain things aren't balanced. At least not at first glance or even when you read carefully. But consider with everyone running the same old "most borken" characters, who is more likely to get more karma from the GM? The Mr Most Min-Max or Dr Road Less Traveled?

[It trolls!]

Oh, so that's what Ancient meant. I hadn't considered the "This crime was committed by a fomori. There are three in Los Angeles." angle.

That's a pretty substantial disadvantage, yeah.

Yup, imagine the rarity of the generic metatype in the region where your campaign is set, then of the fraction of those who are of your chosen metavariant and then think of how many of those are involved in the Shadows.
If your character has any kind of Street Rep, the Star KNOWS who he is. They might not have any dirt on you yet, but they have someone undercover for sure or get someone to talk in exchange for forgetting that drug possession charge...
Then if you get identified on a Run as "a guy with a steer snout" or similar, the Star's already narrowed it down to a handfull of people and an arrest warrand for you is filed in no time.
I agree that the BP costs appear too low but the possibility of the above-mentioned happening is all it takes to get me thinking twice.

[Drogos]

Oh, so that's what Ancient meant. I hadn't considered the "This crime was committed by a fomori. There are three in Los Angeles." angle.

That's a pretty substantial disadvantage, yeah.

There's the lightbulb.

Yeah, they are RARE unless you're in freakin Greece, or whereever, and even there, they are rarish. Think of them like awakened, where like 1% of all trolls in the world are Formori/Cyclops/Minos, and if you happen to be in Greece that might jump to 2-4% of the Trolls. That's probably a close enough for government work figure.

[HappyDaze]

With the rarity issue then Oni should be cheaper than regular Orks if playing in Japan or an area with high Japanese population, Ogres are pretty damn common in Europe (>30% of robustus os still likely more common than either dwarfs or trolls), and Hobgoblins shouls be no more expensive than baseline Orks in the Middle East.

Are there actually GMs that tell a player what they can play based on the choices of the other players? "No, you can't be an Adept since one awakened character in the group is the limit. Play a vatjob instead." If so, then that's a gmae style that I abhor. Since it sounds like the game writers encourage this, I'll keep that in mind and give their suggested rules a healthy dose of scrutiny before accepting them. I'm finding I have very little love for this edition.

[thiagão]

Remember that metavariants (and changelings) may buy metagenetic qualities, and the regular races can't.

[BRodda]

I've been looking at the Metavariants in the Runner's Companion along with the point values assigned to the special traits, and some just don't add up. Here are examples of the Ork and Troll Metavariants (excepting the Giant which had a matching Calculated Cost and RAW Cost) to express my point.

You forgot to subtract between 5-35BP for Distinctive Style. There can't be all that Hobgoblins running around Seatle. Cyclops? Thats definitly -35BP.