Vampires and Type O, Yes, deep inside a powergamer lurks Options

[Squinky]

Pg. 77 runners companion:

Infected with the Regeneration power may only accept deltaware implants.

Pg. 20 Augmentation:

Off the rack, basic bioware is considered
delta grade for purposes of interacting with a type O body
(i.e., reduce Essence Costs by half, though nuyen prices remain the
same).

Am I assuming incorrectly that this is a bp expensive way to start an infected character (with the regeneration ability) with
Bioware at least?

And if I am, am I incorrect in thinking that installing a chemical gland in this character that produces metahuman blood could save some hassle?

I know I am the worst kind of munchin for thinking this, but, just throwing it out there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[MJBurrage]

It would not work because in Shadowrun the blood is not the end. It is only the means to the end which is draining essence from others.

For some other sci-fi game with vampires that is a very cool idea, but no good for the Sixth World.

[Muspellsheimr]

If you can get a chemical gland that produced metahuman blood (GM discretion - personally I would say 'no'), then yes, it would cover the Dietary Requirement.

MJBurrage - Vampires must consume 5% of their body weight per week in blood, but only must maintain an average of 1 Essence Drain per month. They are two entirely separate requirements. The only link is that when you do decide to drain essence, you must also drain a small amount of blood. There is no reverse requirement of draining essence every time you consume blood. If a vampire does not consume said amount of blood, they begin suffering from starvation - permanently loosing attribute points, & eventually dieing.

Regarding Type-O System, it is RAW legal, and I was considering using it for one of my characters (I eventually decided simply not to use Augmentation on that one).

[MJBurrage]

How about this argument, as it's bioware it gets its energy from the subjects body. For a normal subject this means eating food fuels your body and bioware (and most cyberware for that matter).

But for the vampire that means consuming blood to fuel bioware that makes blood. Since there must be some loss in the process (no such thing as perpetual motion) it should not work long term.

Of course in a world were vampires are citizens somebody will use animals with such bioware to produce and bottle blood for resale. (Tru Blood anyone)

[tsuyoshikentsu]

How about this argument, as it's bioware it gets its energy from the subjects body. For a normal subject this means eating food fuels your body and bioware (and most cyberware for that matter).

But for the vampire that means consuming blood to fuel bioware that makes blood. Since there must be some loss in the process (no such thing as perpetual motion) it should not work long term.

Of course in a world were vampires are citizens somebody will use animals with such bioware to produce and bottle blood for resale. (Tru Blood anyone)

You appear to have brought a fluff to a crunch fight.

In other words, we're talking about the rules here. Nice find!

[MJBurrage]

So can non-infected get an implant that produces a nutrient paste and never eat again. Same argument.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

So can non-infected get an implant that produces a nutrient paste and never eat again. Same argument.

Hey, up to the DM. Considering that we're fully capable of doing that externally now, I don't see that being a problem in the 2070s. I'd basically treat it as Digestive Expansion. Maybe a little costlier.

[Isath]

Well, I guess there has to be a regular external input, to generate the energy that the body needs. There are implants that optimze your metabolism to need less food (as far as I know), but none that will completely do away with it. Ok maybe you can get an implant that keeps you nutrious as far as you feed it or your self will some concentrated nutrions, but I heavily doubt an implantable perpetuum mobile. Same goes for the infected and the bloodgland. While it might be possible to implant such a gland (if you find the wares and a facility), you'd still need to feed the gland. Also while I think that there might be such thing (platelet factories for examples) they would most probably use your own dna as basis (artificial blood wouldn't work anyways). So what you would need is a very specialized ware, that wouldn't be common if it even exsistet at all.

Finally, as a ST I would not allow such workings, or at least not with serious downsides.

[Wanderer]

The concerns about perpetual mobile that have been expressed are noteworthy, but can be sidestepped by combining a couple of implants that converts ordinary foodstuff in the specific foodstuff (metahuman blood or flesh) the Infected would need. In other words, implant a deltaware Digestive Expansion to assimilate ordinary food, a deltaware Chemical Gland to release metahuman blood or liquified flesh, and the pesky deitary requirement of your vampire/banshee are satisfied. Infected that are not strict hemovores (nosferatu and wendigo) might even skip the Digestive Expansion.

[Starmage21]

As a GM I wouldnt make the same stink about allowing a vamp PC to side-step their blood requirement with bioware. The creature still has to drain meta-human essence and that is part of what keeps them going alot like food. We're talking about deltaware here anyway, it could be some HMHVV infected ware that feeds off the vamp's essence to create blood to nourish them.

[psychophipps]

Hey, up to the DM. Considering that we're fully capable of doing that externally now, I don't see that being a problem in the 2070s. I'd basically treat it as Digestive Expansion. Maybe a little costlier.

The problem here is that you can't get more calories out of something you grow in your gut than gets put into it. If you're making food in your gut, digesting it, living from it, and then making for food from what's left then you lose some energy in the process.

Dramatic reduction in food intake? Yes. Never having to buy food again? Not quite.

[Starmage21]

The problem here is that you can't get more calories out of something you grow in your gut than gets put into it. If you're making food in your gut, digesting it, living from it, and then making for food from what's left then you lose some energy in the process.

Dramatic reduction in food intake? Yes. Never having to buy food again? Not quite.

they still have to drain essence as another form of nourishment. They go inert if they run out.

[Wanderer]

As a GM I wouldnt make the same stink about allowing a vamp PC to side-step their blood requirement with bioware. The creature still has to drain meta-human essence and that is part of what keeps them going alot like food. We're talking about deltaware here anyway, it could be some HMHVV infected ware that feeds off the vamp's essence to create blood to nourish them.

By checking on the Dietary Requirements sidebar, it seems that the Chemical Gland sidestep to the dietary requirement might indeed work. There seem to be paraphysiological as well as physiological reasons behind dietary requirements, but they appear to be fulfilled by feeding on cloned metahuman blood or flesh, so a Chemical Gland producing more of the same and releasing it directly in the Infected's bloodstream or digestive trait (maybe better as it should nullify any hunger pangs involved) ought to fulfill the need.

As it concerns the Essence need, the only possible remedies seem to be feeding on clones, and/or using Revitalization treatments on "donors".

However, the availability of these potential "remedies" might well explain while some governments and corporation have been recently willing to grant citizenship to the Infected. Maybe you need to provide proof of implant for a Digestive Expansion-Chemical Gland suit, as well as standing accord with a cloning firm to let you feed on clones.

[Starmage21]

By checking on the Dietary Requirements sidebar, it seems that the Chemical Gland sidestep to the dietary requirement might indeed work. There seem to be paraphysiological as well as physiological reasons behind dietary requirements, but they appear to be fulfilled by feeding on cloned metahuman blood or flesh, so a Chemical Gland producing more of the same and releasing it directly in the Infected's bloodstream or digestive trait (maybe better as it should nullify any hunger pangs involved) ought to fulfill the need.

As it concerns the Essence need, the only possible remedies seem to be feeding on clones, and/or using Revitalization treatments on "donors".

However, the availability of these potential "remedies" might well explain while some governments and corporation have been recently willing to grant citizenship to the Infected. Maybe you need to provide proof of implant for a Digestive Expansion-Chemical Gland suit, as well as standing accord with a cloning firm to let you feed on clones.

Sucks for the clones if youre a banshee, since they have to be awakened, and then you get to scare the crap out of them to get your essence fix.

[Adarael]

Come on, let's back up here. The question in a nutshell isn't "Can a Chemical Gland produce blood," but "Can a Chemical Gland produce ENOUGH blood." Under no circumstances is a chemical gland capable of producing enough blood to sidestep the requirement. Let's break it down.

Dietary Requirement: 5% of your body weight per week in blood. Let's suppose a vampire that's built like me, and weighs 155 pounds. So he needs about 7.5 pounds of blood per week. Well, 1 gallon of water is 8.3 pounds, so let's assume he needs exactly a gallon of blood a week. We can do some easy math to see that's about a half a liter a day he'll need, since 1 gallon = 3.79 liters.

Now, as I remember it, Chemical Gland stores 3 'doses' of a compound, and restores those gradually over a couple of hours. Given that most 'doses' of anything are measured in single digit grams, I think it's a hell of a stretch to assume that a chemical gland can produce half a liter of blood every day. Maybe a quarter liter, if you're lucky.

So I guess make sure you vampire is a midget?

[Moon-Hawk]

Type-O means you have all the same genetic/immune markers that the off-the-shelf 'ware has, right? So since you're already a perfect match for what they're mass producing, it counts as deltaware. Lucky you.
Well, if you become Infected you get your DNA rewritten, right? So it looks to me like becoming Infected would cause you to loose the type O quality.
Of course, that's not explicit, so if you want to jump up and down and scream RAW loud enough, sure, you can do it. Maybe your GM will even let you, but I wouldn't.

[Adarael]

I actually don't think HMHVV infection changes your DNA. I think it's a magical disease, not a full phenotypic change. At least, I've never seen anything to indicate it.

It'd make going undetected a bitch if it did, though.

"Hey Bob! Check it out! That dude's a Wendigo!"
'Man. I thought he just was hairy.'

[Wanderer]

Sucks for the clones if youre a banshee, since they have to be awakened, and then you get to scare the crap out of them to get your essence fix.

Well, actually it sucks for the clones whatever the Infected type, since the Essence Drain power needs some kind of emotional bond (be it fear, rage, love, or lust) to work. So they would need to be awakened nonetheless. However, IIRC, banshees do not have to use fear to feed, it's just the one emotional bond that comes most easily to them, given their powers. But all of them need conscious clones to feed. But I really do not see many people in the cynical SR world being too much concerned about this, given that clones are routinely grown to pick organ or limb replacements, and the only alternative is to let the Infected feed from real people and then put them through the hassle of a Revitalization treatment.

[Adarael]

Or, you know, kill them for bounty money. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Wanderer]

Come on, let's back up here. The question in a nutshell isn't "Can a Chemical Gland produce blood," but "Can a Chemical Gland produce ENOUGH blood." Under no circumstances is a chemical gland capable of producing enough blood to sidestep the requirement. Let's break it down.

Dietary Requirement: 5% of your body weight per week in blood. Let's suppose a vampire that's built like me, and weighs 155 pounds. So he needs about 7.5 pounds of blood per week. Well, 1 gallon of water is 8.3 pounds, so let's assume he needs exactly a gallon of blood a week. We can do some easy math to see that's about a half a liter a day he'll need, since 1 gallon = 3.79 liters.

Now, as I remember it, Chemical Gland stores 3 'doses' of a compound, and restores those gradually over a couple of hours. Given that most 'doses' of anything are measured in single digit grams, I think it's a hell of a stretch to assume that a chemical gland can produce half a liter of blood every day. Maybe a quarter liter, if you're lucky.

So I guess make sure you vampire is a midget?

Your argument has a point, but then again, nothing stops you from implanting multiple Chemical Glands that all produce metahuman blood. Since they are all Deltaware, the Essence bill is not that great, given that you need to sacrifice 1 Essence point anyway in order to use this strategy: 1 Delta Digestive Expansion .25 + 2/3 Delta Chemical Glands 0.45/0.6 = 0.7/0.85 Essence and you are sure to be freed of Dietary requirement in blood from actual people. Maybe a wendigo or dzoo-no-qua might need the output of more (4-5) Chemical Glands, but non-hemovore Infected would not need the Digestive Expansion in the first place, freeing place for more Chemical Glands.

[Ancient History]

Y'all will recall that Chemical Glands can only produce a single chemical or compound. Blood is a might complex.

[Wanderer]

Y'all will recall that Chemical Glands can only produce a single chemical or compound. Blood is a might complex.

Spoilsport (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Oh well, there's still feeding on clones and blood banks.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Starmage21]

Y'all will recall that Chemical Glands can only produce a single chemical or compound. Blood is a might complex.

We're just abstracting, but those chemical compounds are probobly rather complex molecules. On the other hand, if we can bio-engineer organs to produce such chemicals then blood is a rather simple leap backwards in technology.

[Ancient History]

I'm waiting for one of you to make the leap of logic that a vampire can satisfy her Dietary Requirement by just tapping a vein and drinking her own blood.

[Isath]

If an infected will fit into my campaign, I would allow it for play. The player of the infected will then have to live with the package, he will have all the powers that are granted to an infected of that type aswell as all the downsides.
The HMHVV transfers it's RNA into the DNA of the infected, triggering a metagenetic process that transforms the body. Those facts are all I need when it comes to the question if the DNA is altered (however slightly it may be). I would disallow Type O as a quallity, at least for an infected with Regeneration, as I see it as more than just a matter of bloodtype if regeneration rejects the ware. As I see the Infected to need true deltaware, that is fitted to their special condition, "Type O" just wouldn't do the character much of a favor.

Thiking about it, it could verywell be, that the body doesn't have much of the old immune system left and thus not much of a typical bloodtype. Immunities to diseases, pathogenes, age and regeneration speak for a highly resistant system and genetic alteration (though by magical means). In SR genes are no pure mudane matter anymore (if they ever were (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

Should a vampiric character ever get his hands at such delta options, he could probably get rid of his need for blood to some extend - I still would have him drink blood for the essence. But, he would then have to feed on nutrion pills or something alike and I would make something inside of him crave. It always has a price to go against your nature. By the way, I would have a human with the "same" implant craving for a steak or other food aswell. It would have to be a prosses, making the character feel unsatisfied for "no obvious reason" at first and play it where ever it leads.

Life sucks and you won't escape by being infected.

All of this has to do with comonsense, believability and balance.