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Squinky
Pg. 77 runners companion:

Infected with the Regeneration power may only accept deltaware implants.

Pg. 20 Augmentation:

Off the rack, basic bioware is considered
delta grade for purposes of interacting with a type O body
(i.e., reduce Essence Costs by half, though nuyen prices remain the
same).

Am I assuming incorrectly that this is a bp expensive way to start an infected character (with the regeneration ability) with
Bioware at least?

And if I am, am I incorrect in thinking that installing a chemical gland in this character that produces metahuman blood could save some hassle?

I know I am the worst kind of munchin for thinking this, but, just throwing it out there smile.gif
MJBurrage
It would not work because in Shadowrun the blood is not the end. It is only the means to the end which is draining essence from others.

For some other sci-fi game with vampires that is a very cool idea, but no good for the Sixth World.
Muspellsheimr
If you can get a chemical gland that produced metahuman blood (GM discretion - personally I would say 'no'), then yes, it would cover the Dietary Requirement.

MJBurrage - Vampires must consume 5% of their body weight per week in blood, but only must maintain an average of 1 Essence Drain per month. They are two entirely separate requirements. The only link is that when you do decide to drain essence, you must also drain a small amount of blood. There is no reverse requirement of draining essence every time you consume blood. If a vampire does not consume said amount of blood, they begin suffering from starvation - permanently loosing attribute points, & eventually dieing.

Regarding Type-O System, it is RAW legal, and I was considering using it for one of my characters (I eventually decided simply not to use Augmentation on that one).
MJBurrage
How about this argument, as it's bioware it gets its energy from the subjects body. For a normal subject this means eating food fuels your body and bioware (and most cyberware for that matter).

But for the vampire that means consuming blood to fuel bioware that makes blood. Since there must be some loss in the process (no such thing as perpetual motion) it should not work long term.

Of course in a world were vampires are citizens somebody will use animals with such bioware to produce and bottle blood for resale. (Tru Blood anyone)
tsuyoshikentsu
QUOTE (MJBurrage @ Aug 6 2008, 11:33 PM) *
How about this argument, as it's bioware it gets its energy from the subjects body. For a normal subject this means eating food fuels your body and bioware (and most cyberware for that matter).

But for the vampire that means consuming blood to fuel bioware that makes blood. Since there must be some loss in the process (no such thing as perpetual motion) it should not work long term.

Of course in a world were vampires are citizens somebody will use animals with such bioware to produce and bottle blood for resale. (Tru Blood anyone)


You appear to have brought a fluff to a crunch fight.

In other words, we're talking about the rules here. Nice find!
MJBurrage
So can non-infected get an implant that produces a nutrient paste and never eat again. Same argument.
tsuyoshikentsu
QUOTE (MJBurrage @ Aug 7 2008, 12:30 AM) *
So can non-infected get an implant that produces a nutrient paste and never eat again. Same argument.


Hey, up to the DM. Considering that we're fully capable of doing that externally now, I don't see that being a problem in the 2070s. I'd basically treat it as Digestive Expansion. Maybe a little costlier.
Isath
Well, I guess there has to be a regular external input, to generate the energy that the body needs. There are implants that optimze your metabolism to need less food (as far as I know), but none that will completely do away with it. Ok maybe you can get an implant that keeps you nutrious as far as you feed it or your self will some concentrated nutrions, but I heavily doubt an implantable perpetuum mobile. Same goes for the infected and the bloodgland. While it might be possible to implant such a gland (if you find the wares and a facility), you'd still need to feed the gland. Also while I think that there might be such thing (platelet factories for examples) they would most probably use your own dna as basis (artificial blood wouldn't work anyways). So what you would need is a very specialized ware, that wouldn't be common if it even exsistet at all.

Finally, as a ST I would not allow such workings, or at least not with serious downsides.
Wanderer
The concerns about perpetual mobile that have been expressed are noteworthy, but can be sidestepped by combining a couple of implants that converts ordinary foodstuff in the specific foodstuff (metahuman blood or flesh) the Infected would need. In other words, implant a deltaware Digestive Expansion to assimilate ordinary food, a deltaware Chemical Gland to release metahuman blood or liquified flesh, and the pesky deitary requirement of your vampire/banshee are satisfied. Infected that are not strict hemovores (nosferatu and wendigo) might even skip the Digestive Expansion.
Starmage21
As a GM I wouldnt make the same stink about allowing a vamp PC to side-step their blood requirement with bioware. The creature still has to drain meta-human essence and that is part of what keeps them going alot like food. We're talking about deltaware here anyway, it could be some HMHVV infected ware that feeds off the vamp's essence to create blood to nourish them.
psychophipps
QUOTE (tsuyoshikentsu @ Aug 7 2008, 01:40 AM) *
Hey, up to the DM. Considering that we're fully capable of doing that externally now, I don't see that being a problem in the 2070s. I'd basically treat it as Digestive Expansion. Maybe a little costlier.


The problem here is that you can't get more calories out of something you grow in your gut than gets put into it. If you're making food in your gut, digesting it, living from it, and then making for food from what's left then you lose some energy in the process.

Dramatic reduction in food intake? Yes. Never having to buy food again? Not quite.
Starmage21
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Aug 7 2008, 09:53 AM) *
The problem here is that you can't get more calories out of something you grow in your gut than gets put into it. If you're making food in your gut, digesting it, living from it, and then making for food from what's left then you lose some energy in the process.

Dramatic reduction in food intake? Yes. Never having to buy food again? Not quite.


they still have to drain essence as another form of nourishment. They go inert if they run out.
Wanderer
QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Aug 7 2008, 04:15 PM) *
As a GM I wouldnt make the same stink about allowing a vamp PC to side-step their blood requirement with bioware. The creature still has to drain meta-human essence and that is part of what keeps them going alot like food. We're talking about deltaware here anyway, it could be some HMHVV infected ware that feeds off the vamp's essence to create blood to nourish them.


By checking on the Dietary Requirements sidebar, it seems that the Chemical Gland sidestep to the dietary requirement might indeed work. There seem to be paraphysiological as well as physiological reasons behind dietary requirements, but they appear to be fulfilled by feeding on cloned metahuman blood or flesh, so a Chemical Gland producing more of the same and releasing it directly in the Infected's bloodstream or digestive trait (maybe better as it should nullify any hunger pangs involved) ought to fulfill the need.

As it concerns the Essence need, the only possible remedies seem to be feeding on clones, and/or using Revitalization treatments on "donors".

However, the availability of these potential "remedies" might well explain while some governments and corporation have been recently willing to grant citizenship to the Infected. Maybe you need to provide proof of implant for a Digestive Expansion-Chemical Gland suit, as well as standing accord with a cloning firm to let you feed on clones.
Starmage21
QUOTE (Wanderer @ Aug 7 2008, 10:19 AM) *
By checking on the Dietary Requirements sidebar, it seems that the Chemical Gland sidestep to the dietary requirement might indeed work. There seem to be paraphysiological as well as physiological reasons behind dietary requirements, but they appear to be fulfilled by feeding on cloned metahuman blood or flesh, so a Chemical Gland producing more of the same and releasing it directly in the Infected's bloodstream or digestive trait (maybe better as it should nullify any hunger pangs involved) ought to fulfill the need.

As it concerns the Essence need, the only possible remedies seem to be feeding on clones, and/or using Revitalization treatments on "donors".

However, the availability of these potential "remedies" might well explain while some governments and corporation have been recently willing to grant citizenship to the Infected. Maybe you need to provide proof of implant for a Digestive Expansion-Chemical Gland suit, as well as standing accord with a cloning firm to let you feed on clones.


Sucks for the clones if youre a banshee, since they have to be awakened, and then you get to scare the crap out of them to get your essence fix.
Adarael
Come on, let's back up here. The question in a nutshell isn't "Can a Chemical Gland produce blood," but "Can a Chemical Gland produce ENOUGH blood." Under no circumstances is a chemical gland capable of producing enough blood to sidestep the requirement. Let's break it down.

Dietary Requirement: 5% of your body weight per week in blood. Let's suppose a vampire that's built like me, and weighs 155 pounds. So he needs about 7.5 pounds of blood per week. Well, 1 gallon of water is 8.3 pounds, so let's assume he needs exactly a gallon of blood a week. We can do some easy math to see that's about a half a liter a day he'll need, since 1 gallon = 3.79 liters.

Now, as I remember it, Chemical Gland stores 3 'doses' of a compound, and restores those gradually over a couple of hours. Given that most 'doses' of anything are measured in single digit grams, I think it's a hell of a stretch to assume that a chemical gland can produce half a liter of blood every day. Maybe a quarter liter, if you're lucky.

So I guess make sure you vampire is a midget?
Moon-Hawk
Type-O means you have all the same genetic/immune markers that the off-the-shelf 'ware has, right? So since you're already a perfect match for what they're mass producing, it counts as deltaware. Lucky you.
Well, if you become Infected you get your DNA rewritten, right? So it looks to me like becoming Infected would cause you to loose the type O quality.
Of course, that's not explicit, so if you want to jump up and down and scream RAW loud enough, sure, you can do it. Maybe your GM will even let you, but I wouldn't.
Adarael
I actually don't think HMHVV infection changes your DNA. I think it's a magical disease, not a full phenotypic change. At least, I've never seen anything to indicate it.

It'd make going undetected a bitch if it did, though.

"Hey Bob! Check it out! That dude's a Wendigo!"
'Man. I thought he just was hairy.'
Wanderer
QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Aug 7 2008, 05:24 PM) *
Sucks for the clones if youre a banshee, since they have to be awakened, and then you get to scare the crap out of them to get your essence fix.


Well, actually it sucks for the clones whatever the Infected type, since the Essence Drain power needs some kind of emotional bond (be it fear, rage, love, or lust) to work. So they would need to be awakened nonetheless. However, IIRC, banshees do not have to use fear to feed, it's just the one emotional bond that comes most easily to them, given their powers. But all of them need conscious clones to feed. But I really do not see many people in the cynical SR world being too much concerned about this, given that clones are routinely grown to pick organ or limb replacements, and the only alternative is to let the Infected feed from real people and then put them through the hassle of a Revitalization treatment.
Adarael
Or, you know, kill them for bounty money. wink.gif
Wanderer
QUOTE (Adarael @ Aug 7 2008, 05:32 PM) *
Come on, let's back up here. The question in a nutshell isn't "Can a Chemical Gland produce blood," but "Can a Chemical Gland produce ENOUGH blood." Under no circumstances is a chemical gland capable of producing enough blood to sidestep the requirement. Let's break it down.

Dietary Requirement: 5% of your body weight per week in blood. Let's suppose a vampire that's built like me, and weighs 155 pounds. So he needs about 7.5 pounds of blood per week. Well, 1 gallon of water is 8.3 pounds, so let's assume he needs exactly a gallon of blood a week. We can do some easy math to see that's about a half a liter a day he'll need, since 1 gallon = 3.79 liters.

Now, as I remember it, Chemical Gland stores 3 'doses' of a compound, and restores those gradually over a couple of hours. Given that most 'doses' of anything are measured in single digit grams, I think it's a hell of a stretch to assume that a chemical gland can produce half a liter of blood every day. Maybe a quarter liter, if you're lucky.

So I guess make sure you vampire is a midget?


Your argument has a point, but then again, nothing stops you from implanting multiple Chemical Glands that all produce metahuman blood. Since they are all Deltaware, the Essence bill is not that great, given that you need to sacrifice 1 Essence point anyway in order to use this strategy: 1 Delta Digestive Expansion .25 + 2/3 Delta Chemical Glands 0.45/0.6 = 0.7/0.85 Essence and you are sure to be freed of Dietary requirement in blood from actual people. Maybe a wendigo or dzoo-no-qua might need the output of more (4-5) Chemical Glands, but non-hemovore Infected would not need the Digestive Expansion in the first place, freeing place for more Chemical Glands.
Ancient History
Y'all will recall that Chemical Glands can only produce a single chemical or compound. Blood is a might complex.
Wanderer
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Aug 7 2008, 07:27 PM) *
Y'all will recall that Chemical Glands can only produce a single chemical or compound. Blood is a might complex.


Spoilsport frown.gif

Oh well, there's still feeding on clones and blood banks.
nyahnyah.gif
Starmage21
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Aug 7 2008, 12:27 PM) *
Y'all will recall that Chemical Glands can only produce a single chemical or compound. Blood is a might complex.


We're just abstracting, but those chemical compounds are probobly rather complex molecules. On the other hand, if we can bio-engineer organs to produce such chemicals then blood is a rather simple leap backwards in technology.
Ancient History
I'm waiting for one of you to make the leap of logic that a vampire can satisfy her Dietary Requirement by just tapping a vein and drinking her own blood.
Isath
If an infected will fit into my campaign, I would allow it for play. The player of the infected will then have to live with the package, he will have all the powers that are granted to an infected of that type aswell as all the downsides.
The HMHVV transfers it's RNA into the DNA of the infected, triggering a metagenetic process that transforms the body. Those facts are all I need when it comes to the question if the DNA is altered (however slightly it may be). I would disallow Type O as a quallity, at least for an infected with Regeneration, as I see it as more than just a matter of bloodtype if regeneration rejects the ware. As I see the Infected to need true deltaware, that is fitted to their special condition, "Type O" just wouldn't do the character much of a favor.

Thiking about it, it could verywell be, that the body doesn't have much of the old immune system left and thus not much of a typical bloodtype. Immunities to diseases, pathogenes, age and regeneration speak for a highly resistant system and genetic alteration (though by magical means). In SR genes are no pure mudane matter anymore (if they ever were wink.gif).

Should a vampiric character ever get his hands at such delta options, he could probably get rid of his need for blood to some extend - I still would have him drink blood for the essence. But, he would then have to feed on nutrion pills or something alike and I would make something inside of him crave. It always has a price to go against your nature. By the way, I would have a human with the "same" implant craving for a steak or other food aswell. It would have to be a prosses, making the character feel unsatisfied for "no obvious reason" at first and play it where ever it leads.

Life sucks and you won't escape by being infected.

All of this has to do with comonsense, believability and balance.
Starmage21
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Aug 7 2008, 12:45 PM) *
I'm waiting for one of you to make the leap of logic that a vampire can satisfy her Dietary Requirement by just tapping a vein and drinking her own blood.


Why not? I am certainly capable of drinking my own blood. Unfortunately, humans were not designed to exist entirely on the ingestion of blood.
Isath
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Aug 7 2008, 07:45 PM) *
I'm waiting for one of you to make the leap of logic that a vampire can satisfy her Dietary Requirement by just tapping a vein and drinking her own blood.


That would be "taking energy out of the system and put it back in". Oh and...call me what ever you want, but I would have a vampire needing more blood if he he had lost larger amounts of it, due to wounds or such.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Aug 7 2008, 01:50 PM) *
Why not? I am certainly capable of drinking my own blood. Unfortunately, humans were not designed to exist entirely on the ingestion of blood.


You won't actually obtain any nutrition from it, however, and will, in fact, loose nutrition and hydration. And your body will spend even more nutrients and even more fluids trying to replenish the lost blood. And lets not even get into the negative effects caused by the reduction in blood pressure that accompanies such severe blood loss. You're better off just going hungry and letting your body's natural survival mechanisms break down your fat while searching for something to eat.

Jaid
to the original question, i would say that no, type O doesn't help vampires, purely because of the reason they need to have deltaware. basically, the cyber counts as deltaware because they have to do all kinds of custom treatments to get around the regeneration and shapeshifting abilities. so imo, it's not a matter of the bioware needing to match their immune system as it is that the process has to be designed specifically for them.

now, perhaps another 10 years down the road, if the infected become common enough that research is made into developing generic implants for vampires (or wendigos, or banshee, etc) then at that point type O would come into play imo.
tsuyoshikentsu
QUOTE (Jaid @ Aug 7 2008, 09:56 AM) *
to the original question, i would say that no, type O doesn't help vampires, purely because of the reason they need to have deltaware. basically, the cyber counts as deltaware because they have to do all kinds of custom treatments to get around the regeneration and shapeshifting abilities. so imo, it's not a matter of the bioware needing to match their immune system as it is that the process has to be designed specifically for them.

now, perhaps another 10 years down the road, if the infected become common enough that research is made into developing generic implants for vampires (or wendigos, or banshee, etc) then at that point type O would come into play imo.


Irrelevant. Fluff to a crunch fight.

QUOTE (Wanderer @ Aug 7 2008, 09:41 AM) *
Spoilsport frown.gif

Oh well, there's still feeding on clones and blood banks.
nyahnyah.gif


Which would lead to the most awesome Whedon ripoff EVER.

"Everyone knows about Delivery Day."
Wanderer
QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Aug 7 2008, 07:43 PM) *
We're just abstracting, but those chemical compounds are probobly rather complex molecules. On the other hand, if we can bio-engineer organs to produce such chemicals then blood is a rather simple leap backwards in technology.


Actually, on second thoughts, how many Chemical Glands may be necessary to produce all the components of metahuman blood that are necessary to fulfill a Dietary Requirement ? Logic tells they are going to be a finite, limited number.
Starmage21
QUOTE (Wanderer @ Aug 7 2008, 01:04 PM) *
Actually, on second thoughts, how many Chemical Glands may be necessary to produce all the components of metahuman blood that are necessary to fulfill a Dietary Requirement ? Logic tells they are going to be a finite, limited number.


Or we could just take metahuman bone marrow, stick it in a plastic bag, figure out how to keep it alive(and producing) and connect a tube to vampire stomach.

Oh wait I think that counts as cyberware, not teh bioware biggrin.gif
Wanderer
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Aug 7 2008, 07:45 PM) *
I'm waiting for one of you to make the leap of logic that a vampire can satisfy her Dietary Requirement by just tapping a vein and drinking her own blood.


I readily agree it wouldn't work on its own, because of the thermodynamic issues involved, but I can certainly see it to work in combination with a deltaware Digestive Expansion implant. The implant to digest normal food and derive energy and proteins from it, one's own blood to fuflill the paranormal component of the Dietary Requirement.
Isath
Crunch vs. Fluff fight eh? While it's a crunch and fluff question to me, never forget:

Style over substance! cyber.gif
Jaid
in this case, the fluff is driving the crunch.

that is, the fluff in question is the reason the crunch in question exists in the first place. separating the two is not desireable. assuming you don't operate under the assumption that said fluff, not being anywhere called out as being fluff only, may also be crunch.

however, if you want to get technical about it, then
QUOTE
Off the rack, basic bioware is considered delta grade for purposes of interacting with a type O body (i.e., reduce Essence Costs by half, though nuyen prices remain the same)


so, if you want to get technical about it, it is not deltaware for the purposes of interacting with the regeneration critter power. just with the body.

as such, you can tape a chunk of wood to yourself, get the 'ware in question, and as long as you don't ever stop being affected by your allergy you won't just regenerate and reject the implant(s). the implants will in fact cost less essence, but should you ever use the regeneration power, you can kiss those implants goodbye, and it won't be pleasant for either the vampire or any people watching i'm sure.
Squinky
Heh, I never intend to play an infected, I just like poking around, creating characters....

My personal opinion is that the Type O thing can go either way. I guess it's a matter of wording smile.gif

Hopefully this could be something officially addressed or errated so this kind of goofy crap won't happen smile.gif


The Chemical gland is a weird piece of ware to me....I never really know what it can produce. I thought they could produce anything that occurs in anythings body, like snake venom, insulin, maybe blood? It's not really that useful for the cost, since most characters are gonna be feeding all the time for essence to burn, but the concept struck me as funny.
Muspellsheimr
Requiring Delta is is not a question of how it is implanted, but rather the gene-matching being good enough that Regeneration does not reject the implant as foreign material.
Wanderer
QUOTE (Squinky @ Aug 7 2008, 08:51 PM) *
It's not really that useful for the cost, since most characters are gonna be feeding all the time for essence to burn,


Only if the Infected isn't a high-level Magician or (Mystic) Adept. Otherwise, because of the way Essence and Magic interplay, they will hoard Essence like gold.
Squinky
True.
Muspellsheimr
That happens to be a non-issue many times. Assuming they always max out their magic before initiating again, they still must only maintain 6 essence to avoid magic loss. If they happen to be a Grade 5 Initiate with Magic 7, they only loose magic once they drop to 1 essence. Because of this, I would expect most Essence Loss characters to maintain a high Initiate grade in comparison to their Magic.
Jaid
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Aug 7 2008, 02:52 PM) *
Requiring Delta is is not a question of how it is implanted, but rather the gene-matching being good enough that Regeneration does not reject the implant as foreign material.


QUOTE (SRComp page 77-78 @ "The Infected and Augmentation")
Some Infected possess the Regeneration power, which makes implantation very difficult. Modern science can circumvent certain of these restrictions using specially formulated materials, drugs, and allergenic surgery [...]
Infected with the Regeneration power may only accept deltaware implants.


it's a little bit of both. the materials are important, but so are the special drugs and the special surgery (the former presumably being used during the latter).
Muspellsheimr
The special surgery requirements increase the availability time intervals. Deltaware is to avoid bio-rejection. They are two separate issues. You could have obtained a deltaware implant, but cannot find anyone to install it because of the difficulties involved. Or you can know numerous people capable of installing such ware, but not have access to delta.
Isath
Delta from what I recall is also quality work and not a massproduct. It works more effectively in matters of how and howmuch energy it actually drains out of your biomagnetic field and so ond and so on. It is supposed to be less inversive on every level.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Aug 7 2008, 07:45 PM) *
I'm waiting for one of you to make the leap of logic that a vampire can satisfy her Dietary Requirement by just tapping a vein and drinking her own blood.


heh, makes me think of the leap of logic marvel made when wolverine hitched a ride across the pasific with a cargo ship as a stow away and eating his own arm muscles to not die from hunger...

but then thats comics. if someone tried something similar in SR, i guess it would time to dust of that old orbital bovine thingy wink.gif
Adarael
Here's another reason why vamps must drink blood: they have "Dietary Requirement: Metahuman Blood". Above and beyond the fact that it's arguable that blood can be considered "metahuman" if created by a vampire's chemical gland... or the problem with the law of conservation of energy (somehow the vampire is producing blood without intaking anything...?) there's still one other reason they're up shit creek.

It's a dietary requirement. They must eat it. It doesn't say WHY vampires must drink blood. It doesn't say if it's because they have to biologically digest it, or because they have a magical parasite that needs it, or because they absorb chemicals through their teeth to keep said teeth strong and shiny. But the fact is that having a gland produce a substance and put it directly in your body ain't exactly the same as consuming it. What are you gonna do, line the vampire's mouth with chemical glands that constantly secret blood into their mouth?

Don't believe me? Assume you HAVE to drink milk. And then imagine what'd happen if you had "chemical gland: milk" that dumped it into you.

Eew.
Squinky
Well, the gland can be placed anywhere, and can bypass that problem pretty easily smile.gif

Just because it is in the mouth doesn't mean it is always oozing, I think it can have a trigger in a muscle.
Wanderer
QUOTE (Adarael @ Aug 8 2008, 12:22 AM) *
Here's another reason why vamps must drink blood: they have "Dietary Requirement: Metahuman Blood". Above and beyond the fact that it's arguable that blood can be considered "metahuman" if created by a vampire's chemical gland...


The Infected are still metahumans. Quoting RC, p. 77.

QUOTE
or the problem with the law of conservation of energy (somehow the vampire is producing blood without intaking anything...?)


This is effectively dealt with if the Infected can feed on normal food (as a vampire or banshee can do with a Digestive Expansion). This feeds the body with the building materials that the Chemical Gland can use to produce metahuman blood.

QUOTE
It's a dietary requirement. They must eat it. It doesn't say WHY vampires must drink blood. It doesn't say if it's because they have to biologically digest it, or because they have a magical parasite that needs it, or because they absorb chemicals through their teeth to keep said teeth strong and shiny.


Actually, it says why. Cfr. the Dietary Requirements sidebar. It's a combination of biological reasons (their digestive trait has specialized for blood) and magical ones (the virus needs to feed on something with the "metahuman blood/flesh" aura on it). Digestive Expansion deals with the first issue, chemical-gland-produced blood deals with the latter issue. Of course, the virus's parabiological sustenance also needs periodic Essence intakes, and nothing short of feeding on a clone will fulfill it.

QUOTE
But the fact is that having a gland produce a substance and put it directly in your body ain't exactly the same as consuming it.


Actually, that is exactly the same thing. Here the chemical gland works just like RL enteral or parenteral nutrition. LAso notice that nothing bars from setting up a chamical gland to release blood in the vampire's digestive trait, instead of the bloostream, if need be.

QUOTE
What are you gonna do, line the vampire's mouth with chemical glands that constantly secret blood into their mouth?


Constantly is wild exaggeration. It would boil down to releasing half a liter of blood a day. The equivalent of gulping down a couple Pepsi. Hardly an hassle, espeically if the gland can tell the host's nervous system when it's about to release, so he can be ready to swallow.

Adarael
First:
QUOTE
Actually, that is exactly the same thing. Here the chemical gland works just like RL enteral or parenteral nutrition. LAso notice that nothing bars from setting up a chamical gland to release blood in the vampire's digestive trait, instead of the bloostream, if need be.


Having an umbilicus-like connection to a chemical gland and calling it the same as 'consuming blood' is a hell of a stretch, even for cyberware. If I have "Dietary Requirement: Mustard", having mustard injected into me with a gland is probably not the best way to fill my terrible need for condiments. The umbilicus delivers blood to the child's bloodstream and liver, which definitely bypasses any sort of "consumption via stomach" argument. You're correct, however, that the chemical gland can release into the stomach. It cannot, however, pump into the bloodstream and be considered to have provided nourishment via consumption.

Second:
QUOTE
Constantly is wild exaggeration. It would boil down to releasing half a liter of blood a day. The equivalent of gulping down a couple Pepsi. Hardly an hassle, espeically if the gland can tell the host's nervous system when it's about to release, so he can be ready to swallow.


No, it's really not. Since a chemical gland can produce 3 doses, of say, ricin and can do so every couple of hours. One lethal 'dose' of Ricin is 40mg of it. Let's up that and assume 100mg, because we wanna kill trolls and elephants. Actually, scratch that - assume it's one GRAM, because behemoths have to go. A half liter of blood is about 500 grams. To produce a half a liter of blood per day, you'd need to have about 166 chemical glands going full tilt all the time, which assuming you wanted to make constant, would be a fairly constant oozing of blood from the mouth, OR a very swollen face.

The 'dose' size that chemical glands produce is grossly smaller than anything that would be required by any adult vampire.
Wanderer
QUOTE (Adarael @ Aug 8 2008, 01:09 AM) *
Second:


No, it's really not. Since a chemical gland can produce 3 doses, of say, ricin and can do so every couple of hours. One lethal 'dose' of Ricin is 40mg of it. Let's up that and assume 100mg, because we wanna kill trolls and elephants. Actually, scratch that - assume it's one GRAM, because behemoths have to go. A half liter of blood is about 500 grams. To produce a half a liter of blood per day, you'd need to have about 166 chemical glands going full tilt all the time, which assuming you wanted to make constant, would be a fairly constant oozing of blood from the mouth, OR a very swollen face.

The 'dose' size that chemical glands produce is grossly smaller than anything that would be required by any adult vampire.


I agree that the difference between the size of a typical c.g. dose output and the amount of the dietary needs for a typical Infected is the main difficulty to make the c.g. substitution strategy work. It critically depends on how much you can adjust the maximum output of the gland upwards.
Squinky
Does it ever specifically state how much it makes per day, besides calling it a "dose"? I don't think so, so we can't really get too crazy on listing off specific volumes.




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