A logical examination of brain hacking, Please, be nice Options

[ludomastro]

OK, first a quick word on what this is and isn't.

What this is:

• My personal attempt to see if brain hacking works using ...
• a logical *gasp* examination of the concept and existing rules.

What this isn't:

• An endorsement of or counter argument against brain hacking.
• An endorsement of or counter argument against Frank's alternate Matrix rules.

Ok, let's get this started. First, we need a definition of "brain hacking." I will use the following:
Brain Hacking = ability to remove thoughts from a brain and insert thoughts into said brain.
For this analysis, I will only attempt to determine if brain hacking is doable at all. Distances involved are for another day (assuming I find that brain hacking is possible.)

I only ask that you keep comments to my analysis (or yours) not whether or not you like/dislike Frank's rules.


DNI exists - This is a given in canon.
DNI allows the metahuman brain to communicate with computers - again, canon
Therefore, the brain communicating with computers is canon.
Let's show that as Brain Language converted by the DNI to Machine Language by using the following "equation":
BL -> DNI -> ML

Now for brain hacking to work, it has to go the other way as well. That is:
ML -> DNI -> BL
Do we see this in the rules?

Smartlink / Image Link doesn't do this. Your brain may tell the gun to turn on the targeting but the image link puts it on your contacts or cyber-eyes.

Skillsofts are something of a gray area. They allow your brain to know things that you shouldn't know and (with skillwires) your body to do things you don't know how to do. I could make the argument that skillwires are controlling your body like a puppet; however, that doesn't help in this case. The knowsofts are like a giant wiki in your head. The linguasofts are the closest to giving you back brain language at some point.

The winner though is the Sim Module which

... translates computer signals ... into neural signals...

i.e. ML -> DNI -> BL

So the communication between the brain and machines can be two-way - by canon.

Can you hack the metahuman brain? We're still not there yet.

Are there canon examples for the mind being overwritten by a computer. Well, sorta, yes. BTL - specifically the P-fix chip seem to control the mind to do things that are not "normal".

Also our friendly Black IC can fry your brain.

Black Hammer overflows the Condition Monitor just like other damage ... Overflow Physical damage represents increased levels of brain damage.

Emphasis is mine.

Also, on page 226 it mentions that Black Hammer can be used to brainwash individuals or trigger psychological disorders.

Ok what do we have so far:
BL -> DNI -> ML: via datajack, trode net, paste, etc.
ML -> DNI -> BL: via sim module only
BTL and Black IC can use the sim module to put the hurt on your brain.
BTL and Black IC can use the sim module to modify your brain.

Does all this = brain hacking? As I have defined it, no. Canon only supports the insertion of foreign thoughts into the metahuman brain with the use of sim module, not the removal of thoughts from said brain.

Could you handwave the reading of thoughts? Sure, but then you are in the territory of house rules.

Should the possibility of the insertion of foreign thoughts scare the PCs? Getting captured in the first place should scare them, as that is the only way I see this working.

Thank you for reading,
Alex


Personal note
I was hoping that I could show brain hacking to be possible with the existing rules as the concept is very dystopian and on top of that, I like it. Perhaps when I finally get around to making my own rules for the Matrix ...

[Ryu]

There are metahuman/machine interfaces. Brain hacking assumes that tech can read the brain. There is the possiblity that tech can be made to be readable by the brain. SIM-modules to it best, but other devices do it for different senses.

Published rules imply that getting MMI is not much of an issue, at all. But writing specific information (psychotrope conditioning for example) is limited. It would therefore be logical to assume that the brain can access the tech, while the tech is limited to brainwashing. It can neither write nor read directly.

[Seven-7]

Brain Hacking = ability to remove thoughts from a brain and insert thoughts into said brain.

The whole arguement is flawed if your definintion of hacking a brain is that.

Main Entry:1hack Pronunciation:\ˈhak\
Function:verb Etymology: Middle English hakken, from Old English -haccian; akin to Old High German hacch�n to hack, Old English h�c hook Date:13th century transitive verb
1 a: to cut or sever with repeated irregular or unskillful blows b: to cut or shape by or as if by crude or ruthless strokes <hacking out new election districts> c: annoy, vex —often used with off
2: to clear or make by or as if by cutting away vegetation <hacked his way through the brush>
3 a: to manage successfully <just couldn't hack the new job> b: tolerate <I can't hack all this noise>
intransitive verb
1 a: to make chopping strokes or blows <hacked at the weeds>; also : to make cuts as if by chopping <hacking away at the work force> b: to play inexpert golf
2: to cough in a short dry manner
3: loaf —usually used with around
4 a: to write computer programs for enjoyment b: to gain access to a computer illegally — hack it
1: cope 2b <I can't hack it any longer>
2: to be successful <couldn't hack it in the world of professional sports>

4b is obviously what we're looking for.

Main Entry: 1brain
Pronunciation: \ˈbr�n\
Function:noun
Etymology:Middle English, from Old English brægen; akin to Middle Low German bregen brain, and perhaps to Greek brechmos front part of the head
Date:before 12th century
1 a: the portion of the vertebrate central nervous system enclosed in the skull and continuous with the spinal cord through the foramen magnum that is composed of neurons and supporting and nutritive structures (as glia) and that integrates sensory information from inside and outside the body in controlling autonomic function (as heartbeat and respiration), in coordinating and directing correlated motor responses, and in the process of learning — compare forebrain, hindbrain, midbrain b: a nervous center in invertebrates comparable in position and function to the vertebrate brain
2 a (1): intellect, mind <has a clever brain> (2): intellectual endowment : intelligence —often used in plural <plenty of brains in that family> b (1): a very intelligent or intellectual person (2): the chief planner within a group —usually used in plural <she's the brains behind their success>
3: something that performs the functions of a brain; especially : an automatic device (as a computer) for control or computation
[brain illustration]

And 1a is the other half.

Black IC, including Psychotropic IC, do exactly this.

They illegally gain access to the human brain. Worse:

Psychotropic software uses brute-force simsense biofeedback to imprint a victim with a certain lasting psychological efect. Each Psychotropic program inlicts a specific effect in the form of a Negative quality. In con-sequence, the victim’s subconscious is “programmed� with subliminal messages without his knowledge.

Is hacking the brain possible? Yes, both in SR3 and SR4 rules AND in SR3 and SR4 theme.
Anything else to add? Answering this is getting old, fast. Just because it's not labled Brain hacking and just because the rules are half-assed about it doesn't mean it can't be done.

ETA: Just wanted to throw this out there:

Can Shadowrun computer technology both read and write information to the brain? The short answer is 'Yes'. The long answer is 'The technology is there in cybernetic limbs'.

[Pandaman]

Can Shadowrun computer technology both read and write information to the brain? The short answer is 'Yes'. The long answer is 'The technology is there in cybernetic limbs'.

Commlinks and simsense modules are better examples of direct interfacing with the brain since there's no reason a cyberlimb needs to access the brain directly for someone to adapt to using one; that being said just because a cyberware can interpret signals from the brain and generate signals the brain can understand isn't proof a hacker can gain access to the brain. The problem with brain hacking is that there is no "stock" file structure for brains - each person has his/her own unique perception of the world and associations of concepts, therefore any operating system built to fully decode the neural mapping of one brain would not be able to correctly interpret what certain neural patterns in another brain represent; so basically if you try to visualize another person's brain using an interpreter that isn't customized to them, all you'll likely see is a chaotic node with nothing but corrupted files.

One could argue that preexisting head/bodyware already has a partial interpreter customized to the user but he/she would need to have specific 'wares for certain neural patterns; an invoked memory stimulator would be a good candidate for an interpreter for memories, skillwires for skills, attention coprocessor for information processing, etc.; if the target doesn't have any of those, the hacker would need to abduct the target and run him/her through a series of tests to create an interpreter - at which point you might as well just use the brainwashing rules in Unwired.

[Seven-7]

Commlinks and simsense modules are better examples of direct interfacing with the brain since there's no reason a cyberlimb needs to access the brain directly for someone to adapt to using one; that being said just because a cyberware can interpret signals from the brain and generate signals the brain can understand isn't proof a hacker can gain access to the brain. The problem with brain hacking is that there is no "stock" file structure for brains - each person has his/her own unique perception of the world and associations of concepts, therefore any operating system built to fully decode the neural mapping of one brain would not be able to correctly interpret what certain neural patterns in another brain represent; so basically if you try to visualize another person's brain using an interpreter that isn't customized to them, all you'll likely see is a chaotic node with nothing but corrupted files.

If a computer can do it then a hacker can make a computer do it. Simple fact.


And if you think the fact that there's no "stock file" is going to stop a Hacker then you need to check out the crews doing unix based OS drivers for new and old devices that come out.


This is compound with the fact that, guess what, for a computer to interact with a human brain it has to be programed that way before it's implanted. I doubt cyberlims, which have to send back touch input, have AI's inside them.

[Jaid]

brainhacking does exist in SR4. if you have the person hooked up to a sim module (hot sim preferred) via DNI and you have the right software (or, for more delicate operations, the right hardware) you can subvert their brain.

give them mania (answering questions honestly). give them a phobia and use that to intimidate them. both of these are valid ways of gaining the ability to make queries to the brain and get an answer (particularly if you have a simrig as opposed to just a sim module). give them a mania for obeying your orders. give them a phobia for disobeying your orders. you ask them a question, they will give you an answer. they can even send it back to you through the matrix if you want, if they're wearing a simrig. it really isn't even very hard to brainhack someone, provided you have the right tools for the job. heck, you can even use psychotropic IC to wipe out a period of memory, and with the super machine you can rewrite whatever memories from the person's brain you want.

so even if you define brainhacking as the ability to add and remove stuff from someone's brain, SR4 has it.

[ludomastro]

@ Seven-7
Please note, I do not have Unwired and therefore could not reference it. I can appreciate that you don't agree with my definition for "brain hacking". Please codify yours in a single sentence - not a mass of paragraphs from the dictionary - and then build a logical argument using the rules (you are welcome to use Unwired if you prefer) to show your argument.

@ All
Please remember, my goal is NOT Opinion Fest 2008. It is a logical argument in favor of your own position (or against mine). Telling me (or anyone else), "you're wrong" doesn't work ... by itself. Show me the error in my logic and counter with better logic to back up your point.

[Seven-7]

We can't show you logic if you ignore the evidence we're backing it up with. All those words were not written for our health.

If you ask to discuss something you are expected to read the responses. Unless you're Bill O'rly.



Hacking

b: to gain access to a computer illegally

Brain

1 a: the portion of the vertebrate central nervous system enclosed in the skull and continuous with the spinal cord through the foramen magnum that is composed of neurons and supporting and nutritive structures (as glia) and that integrates sensory information from inside and outside the body in controlling autonomic function (as heartbeat and respiration), in coordinating and directing correlated motor responses, and in the process of learning compare forebrain, hindbrain, midbrain b: a nervous center in invertebrates comparable in position and function to the vertebrate brain

Hacking

Psychotropic software uses brute-force simsense biofeedback to imprint a victim with a certain lasting psychological efect. Each Psychotropic program inlicts a specific effect in the form of a Negative quality.

Brain

In con-sequence, the victims subconscious is programmed with subliminal messages without his knowledge.

Is hacking the brain possible? Yes, both in SR3 and SR4 rules AND in SR3 and SR4 theme.
Anything else to add? Answering this is getting old, fast. Just because it's not labled Brain hacking and just because the rules are half-assed about it doesn't mean it can't be done.
Can Shadowrun computer technology both read and write information to the brain? The short answer is 'Yes'. The long answer is 'The technology is there in cybernetic limbs at the most powerful'.

[Seven-7]

Just as a double post, this doesn't even require Unwired to prove.


Black hammer damages the brain. To be able to do this it requires access to the brain.

[ludomastro]

@ Seven-7
I actually did read your post. I also read your synopsis on the second go round. While your quotes and statements certainly do lead me to agree that computers can influence / affect the brain, I had deduced as much in my own analysis.

I just don't see the jump to brain hacking as I defined it. I realize that you don't agree with my definition; however, I am fuzzy on your definition of brain hacking. I understand what hacking means and I understand what a brain is. I even understand the in Unwired there exists IC that can implant subconscious messages. Please note that I mentioned P-chip chips and Black Hammer IC in my analysis as well - to much the same effect.

How, in your view, does the hacker get information out of the target? And yes, I read Jaid's post about inflicting them with a mania or phobia in order to extract information.

That said, it seems like brain hacking in your view is a specialized application of specific technology in more of an interrogation format. Do you believe that on-the-fly brain hacking is possible?

If I have misunderstood something, please exercise patience and help me to understand your POV.

[Jaid]

alright, before i answer your question, answer me this:

what's the huge difference that makes it so when i query a subverted computer using data search + browse i am hacking it, but when i make a query to a subverted person using intimidation (or whatever skill) + charisma i am not hacking them? the fact that the input and output are different is irrelevant, really. in fact, if i wanted to, i could input simsense data (a recording of someone watching me ask the question, for example) and if the target has a simrig, i can even receive simsense data as a response (the person records their internal response to question and sends me the recording).

seriously, the fact that i don't ask the question with my skills for manipulating computers and instead use my skills for manipulating people is irrelevant. the brain has been hacked, the input/output method is not relevant to that fact, because i can even choose what input/output method i want. actually adding and subtracting memories is a lot more tricky, but still possible.

brain hacking is alive and kicking in SR4. and now it's in the hands of the players. hackers (and especially technomancers) are now very scary people.

[ludomastro]

@ Jaid
Hmmm, your question is an interesting one. Let me ponder that for a few hours (the family and I are on the way out the door to go bowling) and I will get back to you.

[Seven-7]

@ Seven-7
I actually did read your post. I also read your synopsis on the second go round. While your quotes and statements certainly do lead me to agree that computers can influence / affect the brain, I had deduced as much in my own analysis.

Then brain hacking is possible and has been possible and actually happened in some stories and campaigns.

I just don't see the jump to brain hacking as I defined it. I realize that you don't agree with my definition; however, I am fuzzy on your definition of brain hacking. I understand what hacking means and I understand what a brain is. I even understand the in Unwired there exists IC that can implant subconscious messages. Please note that I mentioned P-chip chips and Black Hammer IC in my analysis as well - to much the same effect.

If you define 'Positive Number' as something else than what Mathematics describes it as then guess what, you're going to end up with the wrong answer.

That said, it seems like brain hacking in your view is a specialized application of specific technology in more of an interrogation format. Do you believe that on-the-fly brain hacking is possible?

If a computer can do it then a hacker can make a computer do it. Simple fact.


And if you think the fact that there's no "stock file" is going to stop a Hacker then you need to check out the crews doing unix based OS drivers for new and old devices that come out.


This is compound with the fact that, guess what, for a computer to interact with a human brain it has to be programed that way before it's implanted. I doubt cyberlims, which have to send back touch input, have AI's inside them.

[Aaron]

Black hammer damages the brain. To be able to do this it requires access to the brain.

Er ... doesn't this logic suggest that a good-sized spade is a brainhacking tool?

Saying that Black Hammer accesses the brain just because it causes brain damage is a bit of an unsupported leap. It's ignoring the possibility that it accesses something else that accesses the brain, and since it requires a VR user to work, this ignored possibility seems more likely to me.

I mean, I might write something that shapes your opinion about something. Does this mean that I have access to your brain? Or are there intermediate steps?

[Seven-7]

Considering your fallacies link I think that's a bit funny you should ask that.

No, a spade is not a hacking tool because it's not a computer.

Saying that Black Hammer accesses the brain just because it causes brain damage is a bit of an unsupported leap.

But that's not what I said. I said "For Black hammer to work it needs access to the brain."

[MJBurrage]

If I follow this thread correctly the original poster was trying to ask a relatively specific question. Can one hack a brain in the same fashion as one would hack a computer if the target has a simrig. I.E. treating the brain like an organic node with memory files that could be directly deleted, edited and even created.

For example, could I follow a simrig equipped spider NPC on his way home from a bar, knock him out, copy everything he knows about his workplace's security (including passwords etc.) right from his brain, and then edit his memories so that he thinks he just got too drunk too remember the cab ride home.

I have not read Unwired thoroughly enough to give a reasoned response.

[Aaron]

But that's not what I said. I said "For Black hammer to work it needs access to the brain."

Right. Then I said that it could work just fine without access to the brain, but by accessing something that accesses the brain. Then I ... you know what? Forget it. Keep on doin' your thang.

[Jaid]

If I follow this thread correctly the original poster was trying to ask a relatively specific question. Can one hack a brain in the same fashion as one would hack a computer if the target has a simrig. I.E. treating the brain like an organic node with memory files that could be directly deleted, edited and even created.

For example, could I follow a simrig equipped spider NPC on his way home from a bar, knock him out, copy everything he knows about his workplace's security (including passwords etc.) right from his brain, and then edit his memories so that he thinks he just got too drunk too remember the cab ride home.

I have not read Unwired thoroughly enough to give a reasoned response.

not precisely the same, no. but like i said, you can subvert the brain using the right kind of software, and make queries just as you might use a data search + browse test to make queries of a computer.

i suppose you could conceivably order the person to relive their life and make a simsense recording of that, but you'd be spending a hugely long time getting that recorded, and given that full-x simsense apparently takes up an actual significant amount of space, you're going to need to have someplace to actually download it. it would be much more efficient to just query the subverted brain and get the specific 'file' you want instead, unless what you actually want is a full-on simsense recording of the entirety of the person's memories. i am of the opinion that you probably could get the person to re-experience everything, though it would basically be something like a post-hypnotic suggestion. but simply storing that information is gonna be tough, let alone getting it all sent to you. the brain does have the information recorded, but it's not in a format that's very efficient for transmitting. and like i said, we're talking about an obscenely large amount of information... but yes, imo, you could in fact 'download' a copy of someone's memory. i don't think that psychotropic IC has sufficient precision to select a specific memory to destroy, but you can explicitly nuke their short term memory for a few hours. with GM permision, you could create a special psychotropic IC to nuke specific parts of long-term memory also, but you'd have to have some way of knowing where that long-range memory is stored (imo, the amnesia quality from SRComp would be a valid choice of negative quality to inflict also, and would in fact be much easier than removing one specific memory). implanting specific memories is somewhat harder, requiring a PAB machine and weeks of time, but can be done.

[kzt]

Not sure of game mechnics-wise, but in real life it's not that hard to create specific memories. Various studies have been done that show that you can fairly easily convince people of things that they didn't see, add non-existent detail to things that they did see, change the order in which they remember people doing things, etc. And you can do this sequentially, so you can first create the impression that someone was there then add detail to the non-existent memory.

Isn't it great how un-trustworthy eyewitness testimony is?

[Seven-7]

Right. Then I said that it could work just fine without access to the brain, but by accessing something that accesses the brain. Then I ... you know what? Forget it. Keep on doin' your thang.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Style_over_substance_fallacy

[Aaron]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Style_over_substance_fallacy

Cute, but inappropriate. I agree that I would be guilty of such a fallacy if I was actually using it to support my arguments. I'm not; I'm just giving up on you.

If you've got a response, please IM me. Let's give this thread back to the original subject.

[The Monk]

So let me get this right, seven-7's definition of Brain Hacking is "getting illegal access to the brain." The question is then, once you get illegal access to a brain, what can you do? Besides just turning it to mush do you get the ability to remove thoughts from that brain and insert memories into such brain?

[WearzManySkins]

Some notes.

Only a Hot Sim Module implanted or not can enable Black Hammer to injure ones brain. Black Hammer Programs cause a over Voltage/Overload to generated from a Hot Sim Module to affect areas of the brain.

A Cold Sim Module is not capable of delivering a Over Voltage/Over Load to a brain.

Yes a Cold Sim Module can be modified to become a Hot Sim Module but is a hardware change not a software change.

Why hardware you say? RAW page 229 ~modifying one is a Hardware + Logic Test (10, 1 Hour)~

I know return you to your scheduled discussion/debate/flame fest. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[Jaid]

So let me get this right, seven-7's definition of Brain Hacking is "getting illegal access to the brain." The question is then, once you get illegal access to a brain, what can you do? Besides just turning it to mush do you get the ability to remove thoughts from that brain and insert memories into such brain?

yes and yes, respectively, provided you have the right equipment. note that said equipment is a PAB to do that with anything even remotely resembling precision, and it takes a long time.

if you want to do something quick, then the best you can explicitly do is wipe short term memory for a few hours, and inflict a bunch of negative qualities (which you can use to control the person, at least).

[ludomastro]

alright, before i answer your question, answer me this:

what's the huge difference that makes it so when i query a subverted computer using data search + browse i am hacking it, but when i make a query to a subverted person using intimidation (or whatever skill) + charisma i am not hacking them?

Ok, I'm back. I gave this some thought and came to the following conclusion. Is having a troll point a Vindicator Minigun at Joe Wageslave going to subvert him and allow me to gain information from him? Yes, absolutely. Is it hacking? No. However, by your definition - that is, if I am understanding you correctly - it would be.

Therefore, the difference is one of definition, plain and simple. If you define hacking as anything that produces the outcome of information contained in the brain then I would have to concede your point. However, I do not agree with that definition so I can not agree with you.

If I follow this thread correctly the original poster was trying to ask a relatively specific question. Can one hack a brain in the same fashion as one would hack a computer if the target has a simrig. I.E. treating the brain like an organic node with memory files that could be directly deleted, edited and even created.

For example, could I follow a simrig equipped spider NPC on his way home from a bar, knock him out, copy everything he knows about his workplace's security (including passwords etc.) right from his brain, and then edit his memories so that he thinks he just got too drunk too remember the cab ride home.

Precisely my original thought. And as yet, I have not seen a logical argument that shows how this is possible. Plenty of statements that computers can (and therefore hackers can) affect the brain; however, I have yet to see an argument that the brain has a file structure from which I can extract information as I would from a computer.

Then brain hacking is possible and has been possible and actually happened in some stories and campaigns.

Affecting the brain (i.e. frying it) is not the same thing as being able to remove the memory of someones fifth birthday and replace it with elf porn. Stories are not canon and therefore outside of my request. Likewise, campaigns.

If you define 'Positive Number' as something else than what Mathematics describes it as then guess what, you're going to end up with the wrong answer.

While your statement is indeed a fact, it does not actually answer my question. If my definition of brain hacking is incorrect - that is to say, treating the brain like an organic node and saving, altering, deleting, copying "files" - then please provide me with why my definition is incorrect. If you can't, then we are simply going to have to agree to disagree as we have reached the point were opinion takes over and logic is useless.

I will concede one point. The right equipment can and does (in canon no less) allow the prepared hacker to inflict torment on the brain of the victim that would not normally be possible. I still do not see evidence that we can make the leap from influence to read/write/delete.

yes and yes, respectively, provided you have the right equipment. note that said equipment is a PAB to do that with anything even remotely resembling precision, and it takes a long time.

If you wish to have brain hacking work in a lab then I'm all for it. Once the runners are not interacting with Joe Wageslave, Sammy Star or Felix the Fixer the metaplot takes over. (I allow metaplot to work for my players too.)