OK, first a quick word on what this is and isn't.

What this is:

• My personal attempt to see if brain hacking works using ...
• a logical *gasp* examination of the concept and existing rules.

What this isn't:

• An endorsement of or counter argument against brain hacking.
• An endorsement of or counter argument against Frank's alternate Matrix rules.

Ok, let's get this started. First, we need a definition of "brain hacking." I will use the following:
Brain Hacking = ability to remove thoughts from a brain and insert thoughts into said brain.
For this analysis, I will only attempt to determine if brain hacking is doable at all. Distances involved are for another day (assuming I find that brain hacking is possible.)

I only ask that you keep comments to my analysis (or yours) not whether or not you like/dislike Frank's rules.


DNI exists - This is a given in canon.
DNI allows the metahuman brain to communicate with computers - again, canon
Therefore, the brain communicating with computers is canon.
Let's show that as Brain Language converted by the DNI to Machine Language by using the following "equation":
BL -> DNI -> ML

Now for brain hacking to work, it has to go the other way as well. That is:
ML -> DNI -> BL
Do we see this in the rules?

Smartlink / Image Link doesn't do this. Your brain may tell the gun to turn on the targeting but the image link puts it on your contacts or cyber-eyes.

Skillsofts are something of a gray area. They allow your brain to know things that you shouldn't know and (with skillwires) your body to do things you don't know how to do. I could make the argument that skillwires are controlling your body like a puppet; however, that doesn't help in this case. The knowsofts are like a giant wiki in your head. The linguasofts are the closest to giving you back brain language at some point.

The winner though is the Sim Module which

i.e. ML -> DNI -> BL

So the communication between the brain and machines can be two-way - by canon.

Can you hack the metahuman brain? We're still not there yet.

Are there canon examples for the mind being overwritten by a computer. Well, sorta, yes. BTL - specifically the P-fix chip seem to control the mind to do things that are not "normal".

Also our friendly Black IC can fry your brain.


Emphasis is mine.

Also, on page 226 it mentions that Black Hammer can be used to brainwash individuals or trigger psychological disorders.

Ok what do we have so far:
BL -> DNI -> ML: via datajack, trode net, paste, etc.
ML -> DNI -> BL: via sim module only
BTL and Black IC can use the sim module to put the hurt on your brain.
BTL and Black IC can use the sim module to modify your brain.

Does all this = brain hacking? As I have defined it, no. Canon only supports the insertion of foreign thoughts into the metahuman brain with the use of sim module, not the removal of thoughts from said brain.

Could you handwave the reading of thoughts? Sure, but then you are in the territory of house rules.

Should the possibility of the insertion of foreign thoughts scare the PCs? Getting captured in the first place should scare them, as that is the only way I see this working.

Thank you for reading,
Alex


Personal note
I was hoping that I could show brain hacking to be possible with the existing rules as the concept is very dystopian and on top of that, I like it. Perhaps when I finally get around to making my own rules for the Matrix ...

There are metahuman/machine interfaces. Brain hacking assumes that tech can read the brain. There is the possiblity that tech can be made to be readable by the brain. SIM-modules to it best, but other devices do it for different senses.

Published rules imply that getting MMI is not much of an issue, at all. But writing specific information (psychotrope conditioning for example) is limited. It would therefore be logical to assume that the brain can access the tech, while the tech is limited to brainwashing. It can neither write nor read directly.

The whole arguement is flawed if your definintion of hacking a brain is that.


4b is obviously what we're looking for.


And 1a is the other half.

Black IC, including Psychotropic IC, do exactly this.

They illegally gain access to the human brain. Worse:



Is hacking the brain possible? Yes, both in SR3 and SR4 rules AND in SR3 and SR4 theme.
Anything else to add? Answering this is getting old, fast. Just because it's not labled Brain hacking and just because the rules are half-assed about it doesn't mean it can't be done.

ETA: Just wanted to throw this out there:

Can Shadowrun computer technology both read and write information to the brain? The short answer is 'Yes'. The long answer is 'The technology is there in cybernetic limbs'.

Commlinks and simsense modules are better examples of direct interfacing with the brain since there's no reason a cyberlimb needs to access the brain directly for someone to adapt to using one; that being said just because a cyberware can interpret signals from the brain and generate signals the brain can understand isn't proof a hacker can gain access to the brain. The problem with brain hacking is that there is no "stock" file structure for brains - each person has his/her own unique perception of the world and associations of concepts, therefore any operating system built to fully decode the neural mapping of one brain would not be able to correctly interpret what certain neural patterns in another brain represent; so basically if you try to visualize another person's brain using an interpreter that isn't customized to them, all you'll likely see is a chaotic node with nothing but corrupted files.

One could argue that preexisting head/bodyware already has a partial interpreter customized to the user but he/she would need to have specific 'wares for certain neural patterns; an invoked memory stimulator would be a good candidate for an interpreter for memories, skillwires for skills, attention coprocessor for information processing, etc.; if the target doesn't have any of those, the hacker would need to abduct the target and run him/her through a series of tests to create an interpreter - at which point you might as well just use the brainwashing rules in Unwired.

If a computer can do it then a hacker can make a computer do it. Simple fact.


And if you think the fact that there's no "stock file" is going to stop a Hacker then you need to check out the crews doing unix based OS drivers for new and old devices that come out.


This is compound with the fact that, guess what, for a computer to interact with a human brain it has to be programed that way before it's implanted. I doubt cyberlims, which have to send back touch input, have AI's inside them.

brainhacking does exist in SR4. if you have the person hooked up to a sim module (hot sim preferred) via DNI and you have the right software (or, for more delicate operations, the right hardware) you can subvert their brain.

give them mania (answering questions honestly). give them a phobia and use that to intimidate them. both of these are valid ways of gaining the ability to make queries to the brain and get an answer (particularly if you have a simrig as opposed to just a sim module). give them a mania for obeying your orders. give them a phobia for disobeying your orders. you ask them a question, they will give you an answer. they can even send it back to you through the matrix if you want, if they're wearing a simrig. it really isn't even very hard to brainhack someone, provided you have the right tools for the job. heck, you can even use psychotropic IC to wipe out a period of memory, and with the super machine you can rewrite whatever memories from the person's brain you want.

so even if you define brainhacking as the ability to add and remove stuff from someone's brain, SR4 has it.

@ Seven-7
Please note, I do not have Unwired and therefore could not reference it. I can appreciate that you don't agree with my definition for "brain hacking". Please codify yours in a single sentence - not a mass of paragraphs from the dictionary - and then build a logical argument using the rules (you are welcome to use Unwired if you prefer) to show your argument.

@ All
Please remember, my goal is NOT Opinion Fest 2008. It is a logical argument in favor of your own position (or against mine). Telling me (or anyone else), "you're wrong" doesn't work ... by itself. Show me the error in my logic and counter with better logic to back up your point.

We can't show you logic if you ignore the evidence we're backing it up with. All those words were not written for our health.

If you ask to discuss something you are expected to read the responses. Unless you're Bill O'rly.



Hacking

Brain


Hacking

Brain

Just as a double post, this doesn't even require Unwired to prove.


Black hammer damages the brain. To be able to do this it requires access to the brain.

@ Seven-7
I actually did read your post. I also read your synopsis on the second go round. While your quotes and statements certainly do lead me to agree that computers can influence / affect the brain, I had deduced as much in my own analysis.

I just don't see the jump to brain hacking as I defined it. I realize that you don't agree with my definition; however, I am fuzzy on your definition of brain hacking. I understand what hacking means and I understand what a brain is. I even understand the in Unwired there exists IC that can implant subconscious messages. Please note that I mentioned P-chip chips and Black Hammer IC in my analysis as well - to much the same effect.

How, in your view, does the hacker get information out of the target? And yes, I read Jaid's post about inflicting them with a mania or phobia in order to extract information.

That said, it seems like brain hacking in your view is a specialized application of specific technology in more of an interrogation format. Do you believe that on-the-fly brain hacking is possible?

If I have misunderstood something, please exercise patience and help me to understand your POV.

alright, before i answer your question, answer me this:

what's the huge difference that makes it so when i query a subverted computer using data search + browse i am hacking it, but when i make a query to a subverted person using intimidation (or whatever skill) + charisma i am not hacking them? the fact that the input and output are different is irrelevant, really. in fact, if i wanted to, i could input simsense data (a recording of someone watching me ask the question, for example) and if the target has a simrig, i can even receive simsense data as a response (the person records their internal response to question and sends me the recording).

seriously, the fact that i don't ask the question with my skills for manipulating computers and instead use my skills for manipulating people is irrelevant. the brain has been hacked, the input/output method is not relevant to that fact, because i can even choose what input/output method i want. actually adding and subtracting memories is a lot more tricky, but still possible.

brain hacking is alive and kicking in SR4. and now it's in the hands of the players. hackers (and especially technomancers) are now very scary people.

@ Jaid
Hmmm, your question is an interesting one. Let me ponder that for a few hours (the family and I are on the way out the door to go bowling) and I will get back to you.

Then brain hacking is possible and has been possible and actually happened in some stories and campaigns.



If you define 'Positive Number' as something else than what Mathematics describes it as then guess what, you're going to end up with the wrong answer.

Er ... doesn't this logic suggest that a good-sized spade is a brainhacking tool?

Saying that Black Hammer accesses the brain just because it causes brain damage is a bit of an unsupported leap. It's ignoring the possibility that it accesses something else that accesses the brain, and since it requires a VR user to work, this ignored possibility seems more likely to me.

I mean, I might write something that shapes your opinion about something. Does this mean that I have access to your brain? Or are there intermediate steps?

Considering your fallacies link I think that's a bit funny you should ask that.

No, a spade is not a hacking tool because it's not a computer.



But that's not what I said. I said "For Black hammer to work it needs access to the brain."

If I follow this thread correctly the original poster was trying to ask a relatively specific question. Can one hack a brain in the same fashion as one would hack a computer if the target has a simrig. I.E. treating the brain like an organic node with memory files that could be directly deleted, edited and even created.

For example, could I follow a simrig equipped spider NPC on his way home from a bar, knock him out, copy everything he knows about his workplace's security (including passwords etc.) right from his brain, and then edit his memories so that he thinks he just got too drunk too remember the cab ride home.

I have not read Unwired thoroughly enough to give a reasoned response.

Right. Then I said that it could work just fine without access to the brain, but by accessing something that accesses the brain. Then I ... you know what? Forget it. Keep on doin' your thang.

not precisely the same, no. but like i said, you can subvert the brain using the right kind of software, and make queries just as you might use a data search + browse test to make queries of a computer.

i suppose you could conceivably order the person to relive their life and make a simsense recording of that, but you'd be spending a hugely long time getting that recorded, and given that full-x simsense apparently takes up an actual significant amount of space, you're going to need to have someplace to actually download it. it would be much more efficient to just query the subverted brain and get the specific 'file' you want instead, unless what you actually want is a full-on simsense recording of the entirety of the person's memories. i am of the opinion that you probably could get the person to re-experience everything, though it would basically be something like a post-hypnotic suggestion. but simply storing that information is gonna be tough, let alone getting it all sent to you. the brain does have the information recorded, but it's not in a format that's very efficient for transmitting. and like i said, we're talking about an obscenely large amount of information... but yes, imo, you could in fact 'download' a copy of someone's memory. i don't think that psychotropic IC has sufficient precision to select a specific memory to destroy, but you can explicitly nuke their short term memory for a few hours. with GM permision, you could create a special psychotropic IC to nuke specific parts of long-term memory also, but you'd have to have some way of knowing where that long-range memory is stored (imo, the amnesia quality from SRComp would be a valid choice of negative quality to inflict also, and would in fact be much easier than removing one specific memory). implanting specific memories is somewhat harder, requiring a PAB machine and weeks of time, but can be done.

Not sure of game mechnics-wise, but in real life it's not that hard to create specific memories. Various studies have been done that show that you can fairly easily convince people of things that they didn't see, add non-existent detail to things that they did see, change the order in which they remember people doing things, etc. And you can do this sequentially, so you can first create the impression that someone was there then add detail to the non-existent memory.

Isn't it great how un-trustworthy eyewitness testimony is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Style_over_substance_fallacy

Cute, but inappropriate. I agree that I would be guilty of such a fallacy if I was actually using it to support my arguments. I'm not; I'm just giving up on you.

If you've got a response, please IM me. Let's give this thread back to the original subject.

So let me get this right, seven-7's definition of Brain Hacking is "getting illegal access to the brain." The question is then, once you get illegal access to a brain, what can you do? Besides just turning it to mush do you get the ability to remove thoughts from that brain and insert memories into such brain?

Some notes.

Only a Hot Sim Module implanted or not can enable Black Hammer to injure ones brain. Black Hammer Programs cause a over Voltage/Overload to generated from a Hot Sim Module to affect areas of the brain.

A Cold Sim Module is not capable of delivering a Over Voltage/Over Load to a brain.

Yes a Cold Sim Module can be modified to become a Hot Sim Module but is a hardware change not a software change.

Why hardware you say? RAW page 229 ~modifying one is a Hardware + Logic Test (10, 1 Hour)~

I know return you to your scheduled discussion/debate/flame fest.

WMS

yes and yes, respectively, provided you have the right equipment. note that said equipment is a PAB to do that with anything even remotely resembling precision, and it takes a long time.

if you want to do something quick, then the best you can explicitly do is wipe short term memory for a few hours, and inflict a bunch of negative qualities (which you can use to control the person, at least).

Ok, I'm back. I gave this some thought and came to the following conclusion. Is having a troll point a Vindicator Minigun at Joe Wageslave going to subvert him and allow me to gain information from him? Yes, absolutely. Is it hacking? No. However, by your definition - that is, if I am understanding you correctly - it would be.

Therefore, the difference is one of definition, plain and simple. If you define hacking as anything that produces the outcome of information contained in the brain then I would have to concede your point. However, I do not agree with that definition so I can not agree with you.



Precisely my original thought. And as yet, I have not seen a logical argument that shows how this is possible. Plenty of statements that computers can (and therefore hackers can) affect the brain; however, I have yet to see an argument that the brain has a file structure from which I can extract information as I would from a computer.



Affecting the brain (i.e. frying it) is not the same thing as being able to remove the memory of someones fifth birthday and replace it with elf porn. Stories are not canon and therefore outside of my request. Likewise, campaigns.



While your statement is indeed a fact, it does not actually answer my question. If my definition of brain hacking is incorrect - that is to say, treating the brain like an organic node and saving, altering, deleting, copying "files" - then please provide me with why my definition is incorrect. If you can't, then we are simply going to have to agree to disagree as we have reached the point were opinion takes over and logic is useless.

I will concede one point. The right equipment can and does (in canon no less) allow the prepared hacker to inflict torment on the brain of the victim that would not normally be possible. I still do not see evidence that we can make the leap from influence to read/write/delete.



If you wish to have brain hacking work in a lab then I'm all for it. Once the runners are not interacting with Joe Wageslave, Sammy Star or Felix the Fixer the metaplot takes over. (I allow metaplot to work for my players too.)

So you ignore Deus?

No, not anymore than I ignore great dragons or the nanosecond buyout. All three are indeed part of canon. Perhaps my use of the word "story" was unclear. I should have said, novels.

Deus is an AI which, by my reading of both the metaplot and the RAW, is an entity unto itself. It doesn't have stats per se and in that regard is much like the aforementioned great dragon. They are both plot devices, not part of the rules affecting player characters.

While I will agree that re-writing a meta-human brain is within the realm of possibility for an AI, I was specifically asking about players. Admittedly, I did not make this abundantly clear from the outset so, my apologies.

-----

In an effort to see if I can understand where you are coming from:

1. DNI and the sim module allow the meta-human brain to interface with computers and vice versa.
2. Black IC (and an Artificial Intelligence) can affect the brain, therefore they must be using DNI and the sim mod.
3. If a program can affect the brain, so can a hacker.
4. Therefore, the hacker can affect the human brain.
5. Since the hacker is not authorized to affect the brain but is capable of doing so, he, therefore, is hacking said brain.
6. Since he is hacking the brain, he can access it.

Did I understand your point correctly?

I'm not saying that a lack of a "stock file [system]" prevents a hacker from trying to manipulate the brain, I'm saying that because each brain is unique you have to "decode" one before being able to access it; your OS can't automagically draw a conclusion as to what memory a specific brain pattern represents without first monitoring how the specific brain reacts to outside stimuli, which means such analysis would require time and a controlled environment. In your example of Unix drivers it takes time to write one from scratch (or modify one) even when the coder has a good idea of what functions are required; if it takes time for someone to write drivers for a system he's familiar with, how can it be reasonable to expect someone to write "drivers" for an unfamiliar brain in a matter of seconds?

That being said I think the problem here seems to be our definition of "access" appears to be different: I'm arguing from the stance that accessing a brain means the ability to search, view, and manipulate memories, behavior, and reflexes (which is basically brainwashing); the impression I'm getting from your arguments is "access" simply means being able to affect the brain without any specific effect beyond "give them a potentially fatal headache".

So if your definition of "brain hacking" is to simply cause a headware implant to give the gray matter surrounding it an unhealthy shock (and possibly induce an epileptic seizure) or have a cyberlimb generate false pain signals, then yes, I agree that can be done on-the-fly and with relative simplicity; however I would call that "overloading cyberware" or "neural spoofing" rather than "brain hacking".

allow me to clarify my point:

there are programs in unwired that enable you to directly modify people's brains. you can turn off their short term memory, you can give them various emotional responses and such for a little while (not permanent) and you can inflict a selection of negative qualities that are closely tied in to the brain.

you can't use those programs to just walk in and do any old random thing, however, each of them has 1 specific use. however, each of those individual uses are essentially a specific brain hack.

now there are further brain hacks that can go beyond those programs. the smaller machines can fit into a briefcase, iirc. honestly, i'm not sure it matters what they fit into, because there's nothing that says you can't just hook up a wireless transmitting set of trodes or maybe a simrig, and use that to transmit anything needed back to the machine. these machines do take time, and essentially can be used to create a custom brain hack for that person, to modify their memory, etc.

either way, brain hacking is possible. it isn't very *flexible* but it's there.

you can 'hack' someone to make them answer "bob" to every question. you can give them actual phobias, permanent ones. you can give them obsessions, you can make it really hard for them to act outside of certain parameters. it isn't as perfect as hacking most machines, but then again most machines aren't sentient. brains have more resistance to hacking, but they can be hacked, and provided you have the right tool, it doesn't take much longer than a few seconds. if you want to do certain other types of brain hacks (such as modifying memories rather than behaviours) you need time, but it still can be done.

so no, you can't just go into a human brain, do a data search, and delete a file containing incriminating video evidence. but you can absolutely hit someone with a program that will perform a very specific brain hack that will affect their behaviour significantly.

AI are now availalbe to use as PCs...

I assume you are speaking of the Runners Companion? Haven't had the pleasure of reading it yet.

-----



Ok, those rules were not available for my analysis. I stand by my analysis using only the BBB. Despite my initial misgivings, I think I will have to pick up a copy of Unwired.

Either way, there is no brain hack from across the room while the target is ordering a drink.

well, not for the PAB no. it's not terribly clear on what it is that takes weeks (SRComp implies you could get readings on the person regularly, then have them come in at the end and have it work on them however), but pretty much a best case scenario for what you described above is that you might be able to do so if you've spent the last few weeks somehow getting simsense feeds from the person and creating a customised brain hack.

psychotropic IC, potentially yes. most GMs rule that, notwithstanding the sim module *is* a wireless device, i can't use my sim module for someone else, it has to be hooked up to them directly (largely because most GMs don't seem to want brain hacking to be possible from across the bar unless the other guy chooses to have a sim module on him, afaict) if you don't make that ruling, then all the target needs is a DNI (which i can simply connect any sim module within wireless range to by hacking their commlink or DNI or whatever, say for example the hotsim modified one i carry in my pocket for just such an occasion), and for me to get a clear shot at their persona. if you do make that ruling, then all the target needs is a DNI, to have a sim module, to be in VR (which you can accomplish by hacking their sim module, commlink, or whatever, and forcing them to go into VR) and for me to have a clear shot at their persona. note that a lot of cyber includes a DNI, but i personally would require the kind of DNI connection that trodes or datajacks give (i would also allow the DNI from an internal commlink, internal sim module, or internal simrig, but not the DNI from, say, a cybereye... technically, i think you can do it through a cybereye's DNI though)

so you can brain hack someone sitting across the bar, but essentially they have to have the right hardware attached. conveniently, said hardware is not particularly rare, and depending on which ones you or your GM feel the target must have, may even be extremely common. in fact, either way it's supposedly quite common. (according to the BBB, the most common way to access AR is not via image link and AR gloves, but rather by using a limited simsense feed to get your AR fix). but your on-the-fly brainhacking is pretty much limited to behavioural changes rather than memory modification.

Unwired page 187


So in clarification you need not just a DNI but a DNI with a Sim module.

WMS

did you actually read the entire paragraph you just bolded a handful of words out of? that bolded text is related to why some people think an actual built-in DNI is better, and isn't actually even directly related to the sim module at all. it's comparing trodes and nanopaste trodes to a datajack, it's not discussing the sim module at all.

[edit] and furthermore, the comparison it's making is purely fluff! there are no rule changes introduced in unwired that make the simsense feed transmit better if you have a datajack as compared to a trode net. [/edit]

Again by RAW and UnWired you not only need a DNI but a Sim Module. Reread what I have quoted in the First Sentence ....

WMS

sure, it translates computer data into instructions on what to do to your brain. and what piece of equipment applies those instructions to the brain? trodes or DNI, just like it says in the first sentence of what you quoted. does it say anywhere that i can't connect the sim module to the trodes using wireless? no, it does not.

there are some places where if you turn it sideways and squint, you can sorta make it sound like you have solid support for the target needing to have their own sim module connected by wire to their DNI. this is not one of those places.

now don't get me wrong. if a GM says "i don't want hackers to be able to brainhack people from across the room unless that person has both a DNI(such as trodes) and a sim module." then far be it from me to tell them 'well here's what the rules say so you have to do it'. i mean, the GM not wanting something in the game is as good a reason as any to not include that something in that GM's local games. probably a better reason then some, really. but there isn't really any solid support for that interpretation. it doesn't explicitly call out that you *can* wirelessly connect a sim module to the DNI, but then again it doesn't explicitly call out anywhere that you can wirelessly connect your commlink to an RFID tag either. it just says that everything has wireless unless otherwise noted, and leaves it to you to interpret that both your commlink and an RFID have wireless, and can therefore connect to each other wirelessly. i am simply expanding those rules to cover the specific scenario. is a DNI by default wireless enabled? yes, because it doesn't say anywhere explicity that there is no wireless, and the default assumption is that there is wireless in everything. is a sim module by default wireless enabled? yes it is, because it doesn't explicitly say anywhere that it is not wireless enabled, and the default rule is that everything is wireless enabled. therefore, since both a sim module and a DNI (be it trodes, datajack, internal commlink, or whatever) are by default wireless, they can be wirelessly connected.

(on a side note, i worry that this is going to sidetrack alex's thread. if you wish to continue it elsewhere, that would be fine, but as it stands, you haven't yet provided solid evidence for your viewpoint. if you do find something, post it in a new thread and i'll discuss it there if you like. probably tomorrow... it's kinda late here.)

Can I hack a storm dolphin and use him like an amphibious drone?

Made of Storm Dolphin?

Sim Module to Trode Net or DNI to Brain

How a Sim Module gets its data/program can be wirelessly or via wired.

But since UnWired came out there are ways to keep the Sim Module protected rather than naked. But in all a character still can place a trodenet with sim deck/module onto another's head and apply various programmings to the brain.

My house rule is that Trode Nets require a synching in, ie tuning the trodenet to the individual. To do that requires some willing participation of the trodenet wearer.

As one who has be the "test subject" for EEG's etc, typical placement of electrodes is at best a guideline not a standard. One has to observe the signal diagnostics when placing the electrodes. Yes in 2070 this will be faster but still each will have to be "tuned" to each individual.

WMS

that's actually a houserule that matches the fluff in unwired.

and i did say the target needs to have his own DNI for the brainhack across the room to work. my point was merely that there is no actual rule denying you from hacking his DNI, attaching your own sim module to his DNI, and pumping him full of psychotropic black IC, but that many GMs don't like you being able to use your own sim module and require that the target also has to have a sim module.

but yes, if the person across the bar doesn't have some form of DNI, be it trodes, datajack, internal commlink, or whatever, then you need to get one on him before you can brainhack him. it's just the sim module that you can provide from across the room.

fortunately, sim modules are commonly used to get AR, which means that a DNI must be at least as common if not more common. so there is a reasonable chance that the guy sitting on the other side of a room for you can be brainhacked without you having to bring anything other than the programs to do so.

While that's true, the sim module used (yours or theirs) has to be modified for Hot Sim for any of the technological brain hacking methods to work.

that sounds really plausible, but i've found nothing that actually says that. the psychotropic option only has this as a limitation: "The Psychotropic program option can only be added to a program that features some kind of biofeedback subroutine" and the psychotropic effect is triggered by the target taking biofeedback damage, without any mention of hot sim anywhere in the applicable rules.

is there something i missed, though, that you're aware of? page number would be helpful...

Hmm.... well I thought that was the case... but now I can't find any rules, so it looks like you're right, psychotropic does work on Cold Sim, weird.

There is a bunch of issues all through the game from people thinking the rules say what was true in SR3, or what was printed was what they wrote, or what everyone agreed would be printed was what made it to print, etc, or from having different definitions of critical phrases like what a "success test" is on different pages of the same section.

OK for the DataSearch impaired here it is....

RAW page 226, under heading of Black Hammer

And on PAB units there is this...
Unwired page 190.

From the UnWired reprogramming someone's brain is not something to be done across a room via a com link, but requires a set of equipment specifically designed to do that and the use of drugs may be needed for a unwilling subject.

WMS

Since the discussion has moved on to Unwired I am at a loss to contribute; however, I must thank you for being polite. By all means continue, as I find the Unwired tidbits to be interesting.

yes, but that's just damage. the psychotropic effect still hits.


true. my above example was for using psychotropic IC, not a PAB, but you are quite right that a PAB requires the subject be in hotsim. like i said, the PAB is not at all an on-the-fly hack. if you want to hack someone's brain on the fly, use psychotropic IC, which works whenever the target takes biofeedback damage (with no distinction between that biofeedback damage being stun or physical; it works either way).

One note unless the target is VR, psychotropic IC has no effect. Same note that the Target has to have a Sim Module.

As for the actual ruling on Psy IC affects a cold sim users....

From the explanation from the PAB's, for the Psy IC have a chance at working the target would have to have a Hot Sim Module, other wise no joy.

I also follow the "Spirit of the Rules" rather than the "Letter of the Rules". Following the Letter of the Rules is a Hallmark of a Munchkin.

WMS

the PAB is completely different from the psychotropic IC.

PAB sits there for weeks on end, figuring out how to modify your memory subtly. it's kind of like picking a lock.

psychotropic IC, on the other hand, is all about brute force. it's about as subtle as having the troll rip the door off it's hinges and throw it at the security guards inside.

additionally, the two do completely different things. you can't implant memories with psychotropic IC, and the PAB is not for giving someone a permanent craving for NERPS.

as for the need for a sim module, we've alread discussed that.

and as for the need to be in VR, if you've compromised their DNI or commlink or whatever, it's not a substantially more difficult thing to turn on VR. just flip the switch (put it on a time delay so that you can ready an action for as soon as they go into VR) and then nuke their persona. as far as your hot sim vs cold sim, i don't remember SR3 or earlier using BTL level signals for decking, which would mean they were using cold sim, and psychotropic IC worked fine back then.

UNWired page 115


Black Hammer is defined as program that can have a Psychotropic program option, ergo from the description of Black Hammer, the limitations of Black Hammer apply.

As for previous iterations of SR, not on topic due this topic is for SR4, not the past versions.

We can dance back and forth using past examples of how things USED to work, again this is SR4, so we take what SR4 offers/describes/lists.

As for the difference on PAB and Psychotropic programs they have many things in common ASSIST being the major one. I do not see much difference between the two. Who knows if we are "lucky" a Dev/and or/Freelancers will wade into this morass.

As for switching on the VR.....well using the "new" additional rules in UnWired that has gotten much harder.

WMS

Yeah but the stun version of blackhammer works on people in cold sim, so ergo...