A logical examination of brain hacking, Please, be nice Options

[Seven-7]

Affecting the brain (i.e. frying it) is not the same thing as being able to remove the memory of someones fifth birthday and replace it with elf porn. Stories are not canon and therefore outside of my request. Likewise, campaigns.

So you ignore Deus?

[ludomastro]

So you ignore Deus?

No, not anymore than I ignore great dragons or the nanosecond buyout. All three are indeed part of canon. Perhaps my use of the word "story" was unclear. I should have said, novels.

Deus is an AI which, by my reading of both the metaplot and the RAW, is an entity unto itself. It doesn't have stats per se and in that regard is much like the aforementioned great dragon. They are both plot devices, not part of the rules affecting player characters.

While I will agree that re-writing a meta-human brain is within the realm of possibility for an AI, I was specifically asking about players. Admittedly, I did not make this abundantly clear from the outset so, my apologies.

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In an effort to see if I can understand where you are coming from:

1. DNI and the sim module allow the meta-human brain to interface with computers and vice versa.
2. Black IC (and an Artificial Intelligence) can affect the brain, therefore they must be using DNI and the sim mod.
3. If a program can affect the brain, so can a hacker.
4. Therefore, the hacker can affect the human brain.
5. Since the hacker is not authorized to affect the brain but is capable of doing so, he, therefore, is hacking said brain.
6. Since he is hacking the brain, he can access it.

Did I understand your point correctly?

[Pandaman]

If a computer can do it then a hacker can make a computer do it. Simple fact.


And if you think the fact that there's no "stock file" is going to stop a Hacker then you need to check out the crews doing unix based OS drivers for new and old devices that come out.


This is compound with the fact that, guess what, for a computer to interact with a human brain it has to be programed that way before it's implanted. I doubt cyberlims, which have to send back touch input, have AI's inside them.

I'm not saying that a lack of a "stock file [system]" prevents a hacker from trying to manipulate the brain, I'm saying that because each brain is unique you have to "decode" one before being able to access it; your OS can't automagically draw a conclusion as to what memory a specific brain pattern represents without first monitoring how the specific brain reacts to outside stimuli, which means such analysis would require time and a controlled environment. In your example of Unix drivers it takes time to write one from scratch (or modify one) even when the coder has a good idea of what functions are required; if it takes time for someone to write drivers for a system he's familiar with, how can it be reasonable to expect someone to write "drivers" for an unfamiliar brain in a matter of seconds?

That being said I think the problem here seems to be our definition of "access" appears to be different: I'm arguing from the stance that accessing a brain means the ability to search, view, and manipulate memories, behavior, and reflexes (which is basically brainwashing); the impression I'm getting from your arguments is "access" simply means being able to affect the brain without any specific effect beyond "give them a potentially fatal headache".

So if your definition of "brain hacking" is to simply cause a headware implant to give the gray matter surrounding it an unhealthy shock (and possibly induce an epileptic seizure) or have a cyberlimb generate false pain signals, then yes, I agree that can be done on-the-fly and with relative simplicity; however I would call that "overloading cyberware" or "neural spoofing" rather than "brain hacking".

[Jaid]

allow me to clarify my point:

there are programs in unwired that enable you to directly modify people's brains. you can turn off their short term memory, you can give them various emotional responses and such for a little while (not permanent) and you can inflict a selection of negative qualities that are closely tied in to the brain.

you can't use those programs to just walk in and do any old random thing, however, each of them has 1 specific use. however, each of those individual uses are essentially a specific brain hack.

now there are further brain hacks that can go beyond those programs. the smaller machines can fit into a briefcase, iirc. honestly, i'm not sure it matters what they fit into, because there's nothing that says you can't just hook up a wireless transmitting set of trodes or maybe a simrig, and use that to transmit anything needed back to the machine. these machines do take time, and essentially can be used to create a custom brain hack for that person, to modify their memory, etc.

either way, brain hacking is possible. it isn't very *flexible* but it's there.

you can 'hack' someone to make them answer "bob" to every question. you can give them actual phobias, permanent ones. you can give them obsessions, you can make it really hard for them to act outside of certain parameters. it isn't as perfect as hacking most machines, but then again most machines aren't sentient. brains have more resistance to hacking, but they can be hacked, and provided you have the right tool, it doesn't take much longer than a few seconds. if you want to do certain other types of brain hacks (such as modifying memories rather than behaviours) you need time, but it still can be done.

so no, you can't just go into a human brain, do a data search, and delete a file containing incriminating video evidence. but you can absolutely hit someone with a program that will perform a very specific brain hack that will affect their behaviour significantly.

[HappyDaze]

While I will agree that re-writing a meta-human brain is within the realm of possibility for an AI, I was specifically asking about players. Admittedly, I did not make this abundantly clear from the outset so, my apologies.

AI are now availalbe to use as PCs...

[ludomastro]

AI are now availalbe to use as PCs...

I assume you are speaking of the Runners Companion? Haven't had the pleasure of reading it yet.

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<SNIP>
either way, brain hacking is possible. it isn't very *flexible* but it's there.
<SNIP>
so no, you can't just go into a human brain, do a data search, and delete a file containing incriminating video evidence. but you can absolutely hit someone with a program that will perform a very specific brain hack that will affect their behaviour significantly.

Ok, those rules were not available for my analysis. I stand by my analysis using only the BBB. Despite my initial misgivings, I think I will have to pick up a copy of Unwired.

Either way, there is no brain hack from across the room while the target is ordering a drink.

[Jaid]

Ok, those rules were not available for my analysis. I stand by my analysis using only the BBB. Despite my initial misgivings, I think I will have to pick up a copy of Unwired.

Either way, there is no brain hack from across the room while the target is ordering a drink.

well, not for the PAB no. it's not terribly clear on what it is that takes weeks (SRComp implies you could get readings on the person regularly, then have them come in at the end and have it work on them however), but pretty much a best case scenario for what you described above is that you might be able to do so if you've spent the last few weeks somehow getting simsense feeds from the person and creating a customised brain hack.

psychotropic IC, potentially yes. most GMs rule that, notwithstanding the sim module *is* a wireless device, i can't use my sim module for someone else, it has to be hooked up to them directly (largely because most GMs don't seem to want brain hacking to be possible from across the bar unless the other guy chooses to have a sim module on him, afaict) if you don't make that ruling, then all the target needs is a DNI (which i can simply connect any sim module within wireless range to by hacking their commlink or DNI or whatever, say for example the hotsim modified one i carry in my pocket for just such an occasion), and for me to get a clear shot at their persona. if you do make that ruling, then all the target needs is a DNI, to have a sim module, to be in VR (which you can accomplish by hacking their sim module, commlink, or whatever, and forcing them to go into VR) and for me to have a clear shot at their persona. note that a lot of cyber includes a DNI, but i personally would require the kind of DNI connection that trodes or datajacks give (i would also allow the DNI from an internal commlink, internal sim module, or internal simrig, but not the DNI from, say, a cybereye... technically, i think you can do it through a cybereye's DNI though)

so you can brain hack someone sitting across the bar, but essentially they have to have the right hardware attached. conveniently, said hardware is not particularly rare, and depending on which ones you or your GM feel the target must have, may even be extremely common. in fact, either way it's supposedly quite common. (according to the BBB, the most common way to access AR is not via image link and AR gloves, but rather by using a limited simsense feed to get your AR fix). but your on-the-fly brainhacking is pretty much limited to behavioural changes rather than memory modification.

[WearzManySkins]

Unwired page 187

A sim module or simdeck translates the computer data into
precise locations and amounts of electrical and ultrasound signal
to be applied to the brain (and vice versa), but you still need a
piece to do the actual application, either trodes or a direct neural
interface. Any simfreak will tell you that DNI is the way to go,
because the electrodes and ultrasound emitters are inside the brain
and the signals aren’t weakened by the skull the way trode signals
are. The same simfreak will also tell you that if you don’t have DNI,
you’re better off with standard trodes than nanopaste trodes. Sure,
nanopaste trodes will get the job done, but the signal application
is less precise (depending on how well you apply the nanopaste)
and the signals tend to be weaker. The rule of thumb is: the less
resistance between the emitter and the brain and the more precise
the signal can be targeted at specific regions of the brain, the more
real the simsense experience.

So in clarification you need not just a DNI but a DNI with a Sim module.

WMS

[Jaid]

Unwired page 187


So in clarification you need not just a DNI but a DNI with a Sim module.

WMS

did you actually read the entire paragraph you just bolded a handful of words out of? that bolded text is related to why some people think an actual built-in DNI is better, and isn't actually even directly related to the sim module at all. it's comparing trodes and nanopaste trodes to a datajack, it's not discussing the sim module at all.

[edit] and furthermore, the comparison it's making is purely fluff! there are no rule changes introduced in unwired that make the simsense feed transmit better if you have a datajack as compared to a trode net. [/edit]

[WearzManySkins]

Again by RAW and UnWired you not only need a DNI but a Sim Module. Reread what I have quoted in the First Sentence ....

WMS

[Jaid]

Again by RAW and UnWired you not only need a DNI but a Sim Module. Reread what I have quoted in the First Sentence ....

WMS

sure, it translates computer data into instructions on what to do to your brain. and what piece of equipment applies those instructions to the brain? trodes or DNI, just like it says in the first sentence of what you quoted. does it say anywhere that i can't connect the sim module to the trodes using wireless? no, it does not.

there are some places where if you turn it sideways and squint, you can sorta make it sound like you have solid support for the target needing to have their own sim module connected by wire to their DNI. this is not one of those places.

now don't get me wrong. if a GM says "i don't want hackers to be able to brainhack people from across the room unless that person has both a DNI(such as trodes) and a sim module." then far be it from me to tell them 'well here's what the rules say so you have to do it'. i mean, the GM not wanting something in the game is as good a reason as any to not include that something in that GM's local games. probably a better reason then some, really. but there isn't really any solid support for that interpretation. it doesn't explicitly call out that you *can* wirelessly connect a sim module to the DNI, but then again it doesn't explicitly call out anywhere that you can wirelessly connect your commlink to an RFID tag either. it just says that everything has wireless unless otherwise noted, and leaves it to you to interpret that both your commlink and an RFID have wireless, and can therefore connect to each other wirelessly. i am simply expanding those rules to cover the specific scenario. is a DNI by default wireless enabled? yes, because it doesn't say anywhere explicity that there is no wireless, and the default assumption is that there is wireless in everything. is a sim module by default wireless enabled? yes it is, because it doesn't explicitly say anywhere that it is not wireless enabled, and the default rule is that everything is wireless enabled. therefore, since both a sim module and a DNI (be it trodes, datajack, internal commlink, or whatever) are by default wireless, they can be wirelessly connected.

(on a side note, i worry that this is going to sidetrack alex's thread. if you wish to continue it elsewhere, that would be fine, but as it stands, you haven't yet provided solid evidence for your viewpoint. if you do find something, post it in a new thread and i'll discuss it there if you like. probably tomorrow... it's kinda late here.)

[VagabondStar]

Can I hack a storm dolphin and use him like an amphibious drone?

Made of Storm Dolphin?

[WearzManySkins]

Sim Module to Trode Net or DNI to Brain

How a Sim Module gets its data/program can be wirelessly or via wired.

But since UnWired came out there are ways to keep the Sim Module protected rather than naked. But in all a character still can place a trodenet with sim deck/module onto another's head and apply various programmings to the brain.

My house rule is that Trode Nets require a synching in, ie tuning the trodenet to the individual. To do that requires some willing participation of the trodenet wearer.

As one who has be the "test subject" for EEG's etc, typical placement of electrodes is at best a guideline not a standard. One has to observe the signal diagnostics when placing the electrodes. Yes in 2070 this will be faster but still each will have to be "tuned" to each individual.

WMS

[Jaid]

Sim Module to Trode Net or DNI to Brain

How a Sim Module gets its data/program can be wirelessly or via wired.

But since UnWired came out there are ways to keep the Sim Module protected rather than naked. But in all a character still can place a trodenet with sim deck/module onto another's head and apply various programmings to the brain.

My house rule is that Trode Nets require a synching in, ie tuning the trodenet to the individual. To do that requires some willing participation of the trodenet wearer.

As one who has be the "test subject" for EEG's etc, typical placement of electrodes is at best a guideline not a standard. One has to observe the signal diagnostics when placing the electrodes. Yes in 2070 this will be faster but still each will have to be "tuned" to each individual.

WMS

that's actually a houserule that matches the fluff in unwired.

and i did say the target needs to have his own DNI for the brainhack across the room to work. my point was merely that there is no actual rule denying you from hacking his DNI, attaching your own sim module to his DNI, and pumping him full of psychotropic black IC, but that many GMs don't like you being able to use your own sim module and require that the target also has to have a sim module.

but yes, if the person across the bar doesn't have some form of DNI, be it trodes, datajack, internal commlink, or whatever, then you need to get one on him before you can brainhack him. it's just the sim module that you can provide from across the room.

fortunately, sim modules are commonly used to get AR, which means that a DNI must be at least as common if not more common. so there is a reasonable chance that the guy sitting on the other side of a room for you can be brainhacked without you having to bring anything other than the programs to do so.

[Johnny Jacks]

fortunately, sim modules are commonly used to get AR, which means that a DNI must be at least as common if not more common. so there is a reasonable chance that the guy sitting on the other side of a room for you can be brainhacked without you having to bring anything other than the programs to do so.

While that's true, the sim module used (yours or theirs) has to be modified for Hot Sim for any of the technological brain hacking methods to work.

[Jaid]

While that's true, the sim module used (yours or theirs) has to be modified for Hot Sim for any of the technological brain hacking methods to work.

that sounds really plausible, but i've found nothing that actually says that. the psychotropic option only has this as a limitation: "The Psychotropic program option can only be added to a program that features some kind of biofeedback subroutine" and the psychotropic effect is triggered by the target taking biofeedback damage, without any mention of hot sim anywhere in the applicable rules.

is there something i missed, though, that you're aware of? page number would be helpful...

[Johnny Jacks]

is there something i missed, though, that you're aware of? page number would be helpful...

Hmm.... well I thought that was the case... but now I can't find any rules, so it looks like you're right, psychotropic does work on Cold Sim, weird.

[kzt]

There is a bunch of issues all through the game from people thinking the rules say what was true in SR3, or what was printed was what they wrote, or what everyone agreed would be printed was what made it to print, etc, or from having different definitions of critical phrases like what a "success test" is on different pages of the same section.

[WearzManySkins]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) OK for the DataSearch impaired here it is....

RAW page 226, under heading of Black Hammer

Black Hammer is intended as a weapon against hot-sim full-VR hackers; against cold-sim VR users it only inflicts Stun damage. It has no effect on programs, agents, IC, or sprites, nor will it affect AR users.

And on PAB units there is this...
Unwired page 190.

The PAB unit does the heavy lifting in any brainwashing session, but the modified signal still needs to be fed into the subject’s
brain. Because peak controls are disabled on certain pieces of the signal, the subject is often patched into a hotsim-modified simdeck during the brainwashing procedure. Then a direct neural interface or a set of trodes is used to feed the signal onto the subject’s brain. Tests have shown that the higher signal clarity of the playback gear, the easier the programming is, presumably because the ASIST sequences are more convincing.

From the UnWired reprogramming someone's brain is not something to be done across a room via a com link, but requires a set of equipment specifically designed to do that and the use of drugs may be needed for a unwilling subject.

WMS

[ludomastro]

Since the discussion has moved on to Unwired I am at a loss to contribute; however, I must thank you for being polite. By all means continue, as I find the Unwired tidbits to be interesting.

[Jaid]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) OK for the DataSearch impaired here it is....

RAW page 226, under heading of Black Hammer

yes, but that's just damage. the psychotropic effect still hits.

And on PAB units there is this...
Unwired page 190.

From the UnWired reprogramming someone's brain is not something to be done across a room via a com link, but requires a set of equipment specifically designed to do that and the use of drugs may be needed for a unwilling subject.

WMS

true. my above example was for using psychotropic IC, not a PAB, but you are quite right that a PAB requires the subject be in hotsim. like i said, the PAB is not at all an on-the-fly hack. if you want to hack someone's brain on the fly, use psychotropic IC, which works whenever the target takes biofeedback damage (with no distinction between that biofeedback damage being stun or physical; it works either way).

[WearzManySkins]

yes, but that's just damage. the psychotropic effect still hits.

true. my above example was for using psychotropic IC, not a PAB, but you are quite right that a PAB requires the subject be in hotsim. like i said, the PAB is not at all an on-the-fly hack. if you want to hack someone's brain on the fly, use psychotropic IC, which works whenever the target takes biofeedback damage (with no distinction between that biofeedback damage being stun or physical; it works either way).

One note unless the target is VR, psychotropic IC has no effect. Same note that the Target has to have a Sim Module.

As for the actual ruling on Psy IC affects a cold sim users....

From the explanation from the PAB's, for the Psy IC have a chance at working the target would have to have a Hot Sim Module, other wise no joy.

I also follow the "Spirit of the Rules" rather than the "Letter of the Rules". Following the Letter of the Rules is a Hallmark of a Munchkin. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

WMS

[Jaid]

the PAB is completely different from the psychotropic IC.

PAB sits there for weeks on end, figuring out how to modify your memory subtly. it's kind of like picking a lock.

psychotropic IC, on the other hand, is all about brute force. it's about as subtle as having the troll rip the door off it's hinges and throw it at the security guards inside.

additionally, the two do completely different things. you can't implant memories with psychotropic IC, and the PAB is not for giving someone a permanent craving for NERPS.

as for the need for a sim module, we've alread discussed that.

and as for the need to be in VR, if you've compromised their DNI or commlink or whatever, it's not a substantially more difficult thing to turn on VR. just flip the switch (put it on a time delay so that you can ready an action for as soon as they go into VR) and then nuke their persona. as far as your hot sim vs cold sim, i don't remember SR3 or earlier using BTL level signals for decking, which would mean they were using cold sim, and psychotropic IC worked fine back then.

[WearzManySkins]

UNWired page 115

The Psychotropic program option can only be added to a program that features some kind of biofeedback subroutine (for example, a Black IC program like Black Hammer or a program with the Biofeedback program option).

Black Hammer is defined as program that can have a Psychotropic program option, ergo from the description of Black Hammer, the limitations of Black Hammer apply.

As for previous iterations of SR, not on topic due this topic is for SR4, not the past versions.

We can dance back and forth using past examples of how things USED to work, again this is SR4, so we take what SR4 offers/describes/lists.

As for the difference on PAB and Psychotropic programs they have many things in common ASSIST being the major one. I do not see much difference between the two. Who knows if we are "lucky" a Dev/and or/Freelancers will wade into this morass. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

As for switching on the VR.....well using the "new" additional rules in UnWired that has gotten much harder. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[Cthulhudreams]

Yeah but the stun version of blackhammer works on people in cold sim, so ergo...