 Shotguns and Choke, My GM feels the vanilla rules are broken |
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 Dec 20 2003, 12:18 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 67 Joined: 23-April 03 Member No.: 4,489  |
Well, as my current character is a shaman who is unwilling to devote essence/magic to cyber, I figured that using a shotgun would be a way of making up for the lack of a smartlink. Upon speaking with my GM, however, I was told that the choke rules are quite broken, and we would not be using them.
The reason, as I understand it, is that one can use choke to lower one's target numbers to the point where you succeed with almost all of your dice. Even though this lowers the force of the weapon accordingly, the enemy is almost always unable to surmount your successes, and thus the damage is staged to deadly almost every time. Has anyone else encountered this problem in their games? Do you have any solutions for how to fix it, while retaining the shotgun's ability to have a better chance of hitting targets? |
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Dec 20 2003, 12:27 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
Simple: do not lower the TN for the attacker's roll, rather, increase the TN for dodging by the same amount. (i.e., a canon -3 modifier becomes a +3 modifier to any defender's dodge test instead.)
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Dec 20 2003, 01:57 AM
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#3
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Or for every 2 or 3 off the power it also takes off a wound level.
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Dec 20 2003, 02:11 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
Or both. ;)
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Dec 20 2003, 02:24 AM
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#5
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The old forums have a thread on just this topic.
Basically, yes, they're broken. Don't tell your GM this until you use it for that one beautiful moment of glory before he or she houserules it into oblivion. ~J |
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Dec 20 2003, 02:39 AM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
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Dec 20 2003, 02:52 AM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 67 Joined: 23-April 03 Member No.: 4,489 |
The problem with just adding dodge modifiers is that they require that the target is _hit_. Hitting the target is the problem using a shotgun is supposed to overcome. How does the following solution(based partially on what has been said by others) sound? The choke rules function as normal, but the damage of the weapon is lowered by one level every 3 points in which the force/tn is reduced. Thus, if firing a 12D shotgun with 10 choke at a target at extreme range, you'd have -10 to your tn, and the shot would effectively be 2L. |
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Dec 20 2003, 02:59 AM
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#8
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
10 successes are still nasty to face on that, but it's more reasonable. Perhaps enforcing an increase in number of successes to stage?
~J |
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Dec 20 2003, 03:02 AM
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#9
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
We've always just translated the TN bonus into a Dodging TN penalty. Since it's an "area effect" shot, that's more than enough of a benefit to use a high Choke setting.
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Dec 20 2003, 04:47 AM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Lemme ask you these questions three: 1) How tough are your regular foes relative to your PC(s)? 2) Do your PC(s) regularly face high firearms target numbers (5+)? 3) Do you regularly wrack up a high NPC body count in the games? The direction I'm going, of course, is: do you have any trouble killing targets with non-shotgun weapons? I mean, if your group is splattering NPCs left and right with the typical runner assortment of assault rifles, heavy pistols, assault cannons, grenades, and area effect spells...why worry about the accuracy of shotguns? They're no worse than the rest. Of course, if killing one opponent is made into a non-trivial challenge by your GM then I can see the issue of shotguns and choke. I kinda like the dodge penalty fix - it's quick 'n easy to implement. |
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Dec 20 2003, 05:31 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
The problem with lowering the TN, however, is that it effectively increases the amount of damage done, which a shotgun with a large scatter is not supposed to do. |
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Dec 20 2003, 05:39 AM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 38 Joined: 23-February 03 Member No.: 4,142 |
We just play ranged combat using the melee combat rules. Stage damage before the damage resist test, so even an overwhelming number of successes only requires 2 successes on the damage resist test to survive.
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Dec 20 2003, 06:38 AM
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#13
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
And insane Power, as the melee rules use extra successes beyond D to increase it.
~J |
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Dec 20 2003, 07:15 PM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,359 Joined: 25-June 02 From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada (go Canucks!) Member No.: 2,904 |
Okay, I do not think choke is a broken rule. First, ya gotta use the flechette rules. That means impact armour's a good thing.
Second, shotguns are supposed to be a big threat to unarmoured opponents. Or anyone not a combatant. If ya don't have a decent combat pool (At least 6 in my opinion) then you fail shadowrun 101 and character generation is the first class you retake! Third, check out the concealability of most shotguns! Yeah, there's a pistol sized version of one, but it's damage is lowered. So, ya think Joe Shadowrunner is gonna walk around with a shotgun if he's not on a mission? Probably not. I don't think shotguns are any more broken than any full auto weapon with recoil compensation. 12 rounds from an SMG is gonna ruin yer day! Throw on a gas vent 4, a customized grip and a strength of at least 5 and ya got 6 recoil back right there. 19D + 2 overflow (Or 21D if ya use that rule) is just as hard to handlt as 9D+ from a choked shotgun with lots of successes. |
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Dec 20 2003, 07:58 PM
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#15
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
But that's like saying that a 9S SA/BF/FA AR with 8 RC but no concealability isn't broken because HMGs do more damage. And the example is a bit off, because the only SMG (that I know of) that can fire 12+ rounds is the SuperMach, which does only 6L and can't have a lot of recoil comp. And your example would still give the shooter +6 TN with the SMG, whereas the problem with shotguns is that they do insane amounts of damage because the TN is so low.
But they aren't supposed to be a threat against anyone once the shot pattern has widened beyond a few meters. If you check the math in one of those earlier threads (can't remember which one), a shot pattern with a 5 meter radius at 91-100 meters (ie choke 10 shotgun at the furthest ranges) would be really fricken lucky to significantly hurt anyone, including a nude person who doesn't know s/he's being shot at. Slap on clothes and his hands in front of his face, and the shotgunner would be in serious trouble. Many of the suggested fixes posted in this thread and either of the earlier ones work nicely. One more that I just thought of, influenced by some of the other suggestions: Tie the Choke value to the Range categories, ie treat Short as the first Choke step, Medium as the second, Long the third, Extreme the fourth, and that's it. Drop Damage Level by 1 for each category. Double the Power modifier. Then you could also keep the TN modifier to-hit (3/3/3/5 at S/M/L/E instead of 4/5/6/9). Defiance T-250 would do 10D(f) at 0-10 meters (base TN 3), 8S(f) at 11-20 meters (TN 3), 6M(f) at 21-50 meters (TN 3), 4L(f) at 51-100 meters (TN 5). And if you want a smaller Choke setting, get yourself a shotgun with Heavy Pistol ranges. |
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Dec 20 2003, 11:49 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Cleveland-Akron Sprawl Member No.: 1,200 |
How about just limiting the maximum choke level? Keep it to something like 3-5 so the TNs can't drop quite so far and the results are more realistic. Don't RL shotguns only have three choke settings available anyway?
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Dec 21 2003, 03:36 AM
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#17
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
On a side note, an anecdote of the first time I realized the potential for shotguns:
I was playing in a game GMed by Not of this World, and we were sneaking up on a female magical group spread out over a rock out in the wilderness. The LOS was unobstructed, but they hadn't seen us. I was considering using the choke to hit all of them, hoping that I could put at least a Moderate wound on most of them. Then I looked at the shotgun rules. At the time the last session ended (we never finished that, sadly) we were 250 meters away. All I had to do was get to 90 meters and fire, and as long as I wasn't detected before that I was almost certain to kill EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THAT ROCK. It was a wonderful feeling. ~J Edit: I was loaded with stun shells, so I suppose I wouldn't've killed them, but it'd be good enough. 'Sides, some of them might've gotten staged up to D Physical anyway. |
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Dec 21 2003, 01:52 PM
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#18
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I'm pretty sure that wouldn't have worked, since Stun shells shouldn't spread at all. The rules are rather unambiguous about that (it states that Shot rounds have the spread-effect, nothing about other ammunition). So they got one thing right, at least.
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Dec 21 2003, 02:00 PM
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#19
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Rubber buckshot should have the same effect as stun rd with spread effect.
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Dec 21 2003, 02:05 PM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
HOLY SHIT! I never realized that's how SR describes the shotgun stun shells... Damn, I'd really want to see someone trying to stop a guy at 50 meters with a shotgun loaded with rubber buckshot! :grinbig:
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Dec 21 2003, 02:20 PM
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#21
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Normal shotgun rds can't damage anything more than 20m in the first place and you want to damage hit something at 50m?
Choke setting 2, base damage power 10, 2 x 10 = 20m |
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Dec 21 2003, 02:24 PM
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#22
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Choke setting 10, base 10D(f) Stun, 5D(f) Stun at 50 meters, quite enough to take out any unarmored person. IRL, you wouldn't manage more than to perhaps make whoever you're shooting at more angry. Unless the target was heavily clothed (let alone armored), in which case s/he wouldn't even notice s/he's being shot at.
Especially if the rubber buckshot had spread to a 5-meter diameter at that point. :D |
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Dec 21 2003, 10:50 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 132 Joined: 4-May 03 Member No.: 4,535 |
am i the only one who remembers the bbb having min and max choke settings? also i think the lowering of the damage level makes it all fair, with a min/max choke that is
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Dec 21 2003, 10:57 PM
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#24
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Nope, you aren't. Min 2, max 10. I've never given an example that breaks those (and I don't think anyone else has, either); and if the Choke setting is not mentioned in a message, it's usually obvious from the numbers.
You mean any of the house rule suggestions that have been mentioned, like -1 DL/3 choke steps (D/D/D/S/S/S/M/M/M/L)? Yep, they make shotguns a whole lot more fair. Dropping the Spread area to a sensible level (never more than 2 or 3 meters) helps, too. I still think getting rid of the whole Choke and Spread system altogether is better, but I understand that some don't want that. |
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Dec 22 2003, 05:51 AM
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#25
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Erm, why not just give shot a -1 TN modifier and have the damage level drop every range band. This means you don't need to worry about choke settings and can get back to playing the game. Or, you could just increase the dodge TN for shot by one and drop the damage level every range band. Simple, does no let you hills full of people and everything...
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