Shifter Help, Need a few bits of information. Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[ElFenrir]

Alrighty, so I do like the concept of shapeshifters, and got a nifty idea for one(a polar-bear based Elf, of all things, to switch things up a bit). Also making him an Adept.

He starts with Vulnerablilty(Silver); Uneducated. Gotcha. Along with the bonuses.

Now, using Karma generation(750), I pay the usual 10 karma to be an Adept, and 40 Karma for the Elf shifter bit(page 87 specifically says if you want to play a shifter that transforms into a different form, you need to pay BP= to the BP cost-10. In Karma, I assume this would double(Elf is 30-10=20, x2=40).

Now, the thing that's confusing me(I used the Search option, and either i failed my Perception roll or just didn't see any information on it), says that ''They gain their standard metatype abilities(see Metatype Attribute Table, in SR4), when in that form.''

Ok, now this is the confusing part. I assume he'd get his low-light vision while in Elf form, but the Attributes seem to have a...discrepancy.

On page 86 of RC, it says'' These attribute values apply for BOTH the shapeshifter's human and animal forms,'' when it discusses the Shifter's attributes. The ones you buy on the chart on page 87, I was assuming are the same regardless of form.

But...if the attribute values apply for both forms, and they tell me to use the ''standard metatype'' bonuses in the book if I pick a different race...which do I use exactly? Do metahuman shifters somehow lose the ability to keep their animal attributes in human form, when a human shifter keeps the same attributes? Do they get bonuses on top of this? Or do they only get the ''other abilities''(vision, dermal armor, Poison/Disease resist bonus, etc.) I'm GUESSING it's the latter(so my Elf would have his regular Polar Bear stats, but have low-light vision in his Elf form)...but I could be wrong.

Could anyone clarify this one?

[Ancient History]

<grunt> Something else playtesting should have caught, artifact of an earlier draft where you had to buy attributes for the metahuman and shifter forms separately.

What is meant are the metahuman attribute modifiers - the difference between the typical unmodified maximum of 6 and the race's unmodified maximum value. For an elf, that would be +1 Agi and +2 Cha.

[ElFenrir]

Ahh, gotcha, I think.

So my ''elven panzerbjorn'' would have stats of:

B: 7/13(19), A: 2/5(7), R: 1/5(7), S 7/13(19), C 3/8(12), I 1/5(7), L 1/5(7), W 1/5(7), correct? For the cost of 40 Karma.

[Jhaiisiin]

The Bear shifter stats (and a few others) are presently under discussion for possible errata, as they seem to deviate from the normal 6 point range in a few spots.

That said, just to make sure I read you right, AH, you're saying whatever differences from the norm (6) that a Metahuman form has, you add those into the base shifter stats? I was only assuming the other abilities like lowlight and such. Wow, makes that option worth it in cases. Troll bear shifter seems a might overpowered though. That'd base strength and body at 11 or 12 right out of chargen, and that's assuming you don't buy up further points with it.

Or does it just increase the maximum range? Or just the racial maximum?

[Ancient History]

Was intended for racial minimum and maximum - hence the extra cost! We'll see if we can clear it up in errata.

[Jhaiisiin]

Wow. That's gonna be powerful.

Further clarification. Let's take the troll bear shifter idea because it's got variance in both ways.

Agility for troll: 1/5
Agility for bear: 1/4

Which do you take? Do you increase the base to the 1/5 or take the lower stat, or further reduce it by 1 to 1/3?

[Ancient History]

Lower to 1/3.

[Jhaiisiin]

Ouch. Hooray for balance!

Okay, so assuming 7/12 on bod/str for bear shifter (6 point spread that way), you end up with this for the Troll-bear shifter

Bod: 12/22 (33), Agi: 1/3 (5), Reac: 1/5, Str: 12/22 (33), Cha: 1/4 (6), Int: 1/4 (6), Log: 1/4 (6), Will 1/5 (7), Init: 2/9 (14)

Big, slow, and not overly bright, but nigh unstoppable physically and if he hits you (esp with a bow), you're completely hosed. Interesting tradeoffs. Definitely gonna have to see how some of these combinations play.

[ElFenrir]

Actually, that's a good question...so it could me Mr. PanzerBjorn Elf is actually 1/5 Agility, and 1/8 charisma, which would be interesting. Either way I'm cool with it. I just like the idea.

Hmm...the Bear stats don't look off...they would be(if you added the stats) +6 Str and Bod(+12), -1's to Reaction, Intuition, Willpower and Logic, and -2 to Agility( for a total of +6.) The +1 Reach is in their bear form only, as is their armor bonus, though they keep the Smell.

Trolls are +4 to Body/Strength, -1 to Agility, -2 Charisma and Logic, -1 to...reaction, was it? That comes out to an even +/- 4. They also get their +1 reach all the time, same with the natural armor.

But yeah, a troll bear shifter would have some crazy stats in those two.

EDIT: Ahh, answered there. Well, seems cool. Then again, with an agility of 3 and the ability to not have cyberwear work in a human form, he's going to have a hell of a time hitting stuff. (Unless he's an Adept and pays all of his points for Increased Agility...which, in this system...would be a 4 max. He'd have to rely heavily on Improved Skill(Bow), for example).

Now, as a TANK...this guy would be nigh unstoppable, indeed.

[Jhaiisiin]

The last one was for Intuition and Logic actually. Troll reaction is human norm. Bear shifter is where the negative on that came from.

[ElFenrir]

Gah! I mistook the Troll. Yeah, it's -1 Agl, Log, Intuition, and Agility, -2 Charisma. +4 Body, +4 Strength. +2 total...but with +1 Reach, +1 Dermal Armor, and Natural Thermographic vision. Cost: 40 BP.

How are the Shifter stats off? The bear does have some hefty trades for his +6 Body/Strength, Enhanced Smell, +1 Reach and Natural Armor(latter in Bear Form only and tough to use on a run if they are on a running team since they are so huge), being -2 Agl, -1 Reaction, Logic, Intuition, and Willpower, along with the tasty Silver Allergy(Severe), Vulnerability(Silver), and Uneducated that all shifters come with, at the cost of 80 BPs.

Hmm...if anything, the bears get the short end of the stick. +6 Strength(Str being looked at as one of the most useless stats in the game by the average SR player) probably isn't the selling point to a bear, and hell, even TrollBowBear, again, without significant Adept Power increases in his active skill(his Agility being capped at forever 4 unless he takes Exceptional Attribute for 20 BP/40 Karma), is going to have maybe half the dice that CyberHeavyMachineGunIHaveATonOfAgilityAndASmartlink Ork.

Looking at the other shifters: Foxes are -1 Body, -2 Strength and -1 Reach in animal form, but +1 Agl, Rea, and Intuition, enhanced hearing, low-light vision, smell AND taste. Fox form is also much more viable to use in a cramped area, for a cost of 50 BP. Getting bonuses to things that add to Initative and every combat roll...yeah. The Body minus can be offset, as can the Str minus with little trouble. As a gunner, these would be hell on wheels. (hell, enough Martial Arts DV bonuses/critical strikes, that little Str 3 Fox Demon will go nine-tails on someone's ass in a hardcore way.)

Wolves are totally even-normal, at 55 BPs, with the addition of enhanced hearing, low-light vision, smell, and taste. 55 BP might be a bit much for these guys, IMO. The senses are nice, but they get the same drawbacks as anyone else. They do get their natural attack form, at least. I would say 40, unless the BP cost is for a rarity thing.

At 60 we have the Eagle. Whoooo. NO minuses, +1 Charisma, +2 Willpower, Vision Enhancement 2, Vision Magnification. Oh, yeah, they can fly. 60 BPs. IMO, I would say Eagle should be worth the 80 instead of Bear.

Leopard/Jaguar is up next, at 65. +2 Body, +4(!!) Agility, +1 Reaction, +1 Strength, -1 Charisma, Int, Log, and Willpower. Enhanced vision: Hearing, Low-Light, Vision, and Smell. These guys are LESS than Bear? +4 Agility is huge, IMO. Not to mention a running rate that makes some street vehicles scared. Ok, I'd maybe stick Eagle at 75, and THESE guys at 80.

Okies, now we have the cute and cuddly Seal. +3 Body, +3 Agility, +1 Strength, -1 Willpower, Low Light Vision. These guys are 70. They have that disadvantage of being rather crappy on land, however, in their animal form, and I'm guessing their animal attack is less than impressive(well, that tail with their little Strength bonus can hurt, I suppose.) Still, their stat bonuses are pretty big, and I would say Seal is worth it's BP cost, even with that little ''disadvantage''. They can always go home to their indoor swimming pool after a run. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

75 is the mighty Tiger and Lion. +3 Body, +4 Agility, +1 Reaction, +2 Strength, -1 Intuition, Logic, and Willpower. Animal form has +1 Reach and enhanced hearing, low-light AND smell. I'd say these guys are worth 75.

And above, we have the humble Bear. IMO, again, Bear gets the short end of the stick. I'd say Fox is appropriately priced, Wolf could stand to be cheaper, though. Eagle and Jaguar/Leopard could stand to be a bit more expensive for what they get, Seal and Tiger/Lion are good. I'd say Bear could stand to be cheaper.

Now, I'm not sure if there is like ''a solid method'' here. I like the idea of the ''even +/-'' thing, though Tiger and Lion don't have that(they are +7 overall, with the extra bonuses), Seals are +6 as well as Bears. I'm not sure all the attributes are equal, though...and I guess that's been discussed before. Are the attributes that are chosen taken into consideration? Eagle spellcasters can be pretty scary, and any of the big cats would be the ultimate combat monkey with that agility boost(it's equal to Level 4 Muscle Toner. They don't even need ware).

So the ''six-point'' range, I'm guessing is that all of the positives are balanced out by the negatives that equal 6 points, correct? If so, Bear and Seal are kosher; so is Jaguar for that matter, though +4 Agility is a biggie. Tiger/Lion are +7, however.

But I DO overall like the shifter rules a LOT, and I'm having a blast fiddling with my elven Panzerbjorn(I can see a lot of RP opportunities coming up with this guy. For the record, I had plenty of points to do what I wanted to with him even with Bear's cost as is.) I just have a few minor quibbles about the pricing(again, I'd lower Wolf, lower Bear, increase the big cats and Eagle. Seal and Fox I think are well where they are.)

[Mäx]

So the ''six-point'' range, I'm guessing is that all of the positives are balanced out by the negatives that equal 6 points, correct?

No it's the standart range of 6 points between the atripute minumums and maximums, some of the shifters do not conform to this and that is supposedly a missprint so it will possibly be erreated.

[ElFenrir]

Ahhh...I gotcha. So, like, the Tiger/Lion with a Strength of 3/8...is a 5 point range. Bear's 7/13 is a 6 point range. (I guess attributes with minuses are already kind of done...like the Dwarf's 1/5 Reaction, or a Seal's 1/5 Willpower.) Then again, Elves have 3/8 Charisma compared to Eagle's 3/9. Seal has a 4/9 Agility.

I think I gotcha. Yeah, a few of the shifters seem a little off there...Fox conforms, Bear conforms and Wolf conforms totally.

Jaguar has 3/8 Body and 5/8 Agility(yeah, that's a bit off), Seal's 4/9 Agility sounds a bit off, Eagle's 3/9 Willpower sounds off, Tiger/Lion's 4/9 Body and 3/8 Strength is on(just like an Ork), but their Agility is that odd 5/8 again.

Well, I guess a few of them will get cleared up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mäx]

NO the all the basic metatypes atriputes conform exactly to six point range(ie. 1/6, 2/7, 3/8, 4/9, 5/10 etc.) well execp those which have maximum less the 6 of cource

[ElFenrir]

so going up would be 6/11, 7/12, 8/13, etc. Gotcha. Damn, in that case, a bunch of the shifters need some adjustment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Fox, Seal, and Wolf are the only ones that conform, in that case, totally. So Bear should be 7/12 for their Body and Strength(in that case, they really should be worth a bit less than 80), Tiger and Leopard's Agility should be...5/10(which, in that case, they maybe should be worth a bit more, as I said.) Eagle's Willpower going down to 3/8 I think makes their cost more appropriate, actually. Looking at it again, I guess I was a bit wondering due to their A. No minuses and B. Flying. But I think Eagle overall is ok where it is.

Yeah, again, I think Fox, Eagle, and Seal are worth the points-Wolf and Bear should be cheaper for what they get, while the Cats really should be the more upper-end. Just my opinion, though...YMMV.

[Jhaiisiin]

Presently the assumption I'm working off of is that the minimum number is always right, and the max number needs adjusting. So 5/10 for Leopard/Jaguar/Lion/Tiger agility, 7/12 Bear Str/Bod, etc. I went that way because it seems reasonable to me to have the cats being stupidly agile. That's kinda their thing.

[ElFenrir]

Yeah, that's how I kinda figured it.

Hmm...another thing. I noticed in the ''Sapient Critter'' area, they have Uneducated as an automatic Negative quality.

However, under the Shapeshifter setting on page 88, it said Uncouth and Uneducated are ''highly appropriate'', but not automatic. I was assuming Shapeshifters were a type of Sapient Critter...but I guess not? So Shifters DON'T have an automatic Uneducated quality?

[Oenone]

Yeah, that's how I kinda figured it.

Hmm...another thing. I noticed in the ''Sapient Critter'' area, they have Uneducated as an automatic Negative quality.

However, under the Shapeshifter setting on page 88, it said Uncouth and Uneducated are ''highly appropriate'', but not automatic. I was assuming Shapeshifters were a type of Sapient Critter...but I guess not? So Shifters DON'T have an automatic Uneducated quality?

Reading the section I can't see anything which means you have to have them.... So I guess they don't. As the Sapient Critter bit which says about Uneducated is the final bit of the section before Shifters I suspect it doesn't apply.

[Jhaiisiin]

I guess shifters involve themselves in the 6th world faster and more readily than Sapient Critters, is my guess, which gives them the option, rather than the requirement.

[Oenone]

It makes sense really, if you have to fake being a species you kind of have to look into them first.

Otherwise you end up drawing attention pretty quickly and getting chopped up and sold to the nearest corporate lab.

[ElFenrir]

True enough. I was curious, because I wasn't sure if they were a TYPE of sapient critter, or their own thing. But it does make sense. I don't doubt that they are decent in working with humans these days, though they may or may not prefer it(I guess it depends on the specific character, overall.)

[Jhaiisiin]

I'd rule they're definitely they're own thing, given they have their own section. If they'd been intended as a Sapient Critter, they'd have been part of that same section.

[Maelwys]

Actually, it would be better if you all read the rules (including the witers *looks at AH*) before going about trying to make all these strange changes that they're thinking about making into errata.

If you read the "Not always Quite Human" rule in Runner's Compainon, you see that it says

A shapeshifter with a different metatype gains their standard metatype abilities (see Metatype Attribute Table, p. 72, SR4) when in that form.

Metatype "Abilities" If you actually go look at the Table on page 72, you see that there is a very specific columm called "Metatype abilities." Those are the only "Abilities" that you gain while in a Metatype form as a shifter. It doesn't include the attributes, its only the special abilities, such as low light vision, or the troll's +1 reach.

[ElFenrir]

So...wait, but one of the devs just included ''attributes'' into this...that is making it into the errata.

<grunt> Something else playtesting should have caught, artifact of an earlier draft where you had to buy attributes for the metahuman and shifter forms separately.

What is meant are the metahuman attribute modifiers - the difference between the typical unmodified maximum of 6 and the race's unmodified maximum value. For an elf, that would be +1 Agi and +2 Cha.

So it looked like they MEANT to say that's what it was...but it didn't come out that way. I mean, it makes sense to me...you pay the extra BPs, get the bonuses and the penalties like anything else.

[Maelwys]

The Dev/Author should've read the rule and seen what it said before making knee jerk assumptions. Apparently playtesting or someone did catch/change it, because the current "Not always quite human" specifically refers to "Metahuman ABILITIES" which has nothing to do with the stats.

Again, go to the page/chart referenced in the rules. Three's a column that says "Metahuman abilities" You'll notice that the only stat bonuses there are the human's +1 Edge, and the troll's +1 armor.

The rule works as written without being errata'd. Whatever form you shapeshift to you keep the same stats, but if you shift into a bear, you get its claws, if you shift to a troll, you get the dermal armor and reach. You don't wind up with 2-3 different statblocks, you don't have to figure out how multiple bonuses stack.

Its simpler, it works the way the rule is written, and doesn't require errata.