Alrighty, so I do like the concept of shapeshifters, and got a nifty idea for one(a polar-bear based Elf, of all things, to switch things up a bit). Also making him an Adept.

He starts with Vulnerablilty(Silver); Uneducated. Gotcha. Along with the bonuses.

Now, using Karma generation(750), I pay the usual 10 karma to be an Adept, and 40 Karma for the Elf shifter bit(page 87 specifically says if you want to play a shifter that transforms into a different form, you need to pay BP= to the BP cost-10. In Karma, I assume this would double(Elf is 30-10=20, x2=40).

Now, the thing that's confusing me(I used the Search option, and either i failed my Perception roll or just didn't see any information on it), says that ''They gain their standard metatype abilities(see Metatype Attribute Table, in SR4), when in that form.''

Ok, now this is the confusing part. I assume he'd get his low-light vision while in Elf form, but the Attributes seem to have a...discrepancy.

On page 86 of RC, it says'' These attribute values apply for BOTH the shapeshifter's human and animal forms,'' when it discusses the Shifter's attributes. The ones you buy on the chart on page 87, I was assuming are the same regardless of form.

But...if the attribute values apply for both forms, and they tell me to use the ''standard metatype'' bonuses in the book if I pick a different race...which do I use exactly? Do metahuman shifters somehow lose the ability to keep their animal attributes in human form, when a human shifter keeps the same attributes? Do they get bonuses on top of this? Or do they only get the ''other abilities''(vision, dermal armor, Poison/Disease resist bonus, etc.) I'm GUESSING it's the latter(so my Elf would have his regular Polar Bear stats, but have low-light vision in his Elf form)...but I could be wrong.

Could anyone clarify this one?

<grunt> Something else playtesting should have caught, artifact of an earlier draft where you had to buy attributes for the metahuman and shifter forms separately.

What is meant are the metahuman attribute modifiers - the difference between the typical unmodified maximum of 6 and the race's unmodified maximum value. For an elf, that would be +1 Agi and +2 Cha.

Ahh, gotcha, I think.

So my ''elven panzerbjorn'' would have stats of:

B: 7/13(19), A: 2/5(7), R: 1/5(7), S 7/13(19), C 3/8(12), I 1/5(7), L 1/5(7), W 1/5(7), correct? For the cost of 40 Karma.

The Bear shifter stats (and a few others) are presently under discussion for possible errata, as they seem to deviate from the normal 6 point range in a few spots.

That said, just to make sure I read you right, AH, you're saying whatever differences from the norm (6) that a Metahuman form has, you add those into the base shifter stats? I was only assuming the other abilities like lowlight and such. Wow, makes that option worth it in cases. Troll bear shifter seems a might overpowered though. That'd base strength and body at 11 or 12 right out of chargen, and that's assuming you don't buy up further points with it.

Or does it just increase the maximum range? Or just the racial maximum?

Was intended for racial minimum and maximum - hence the extra cost! We'll see if we can clear it up in errata.

Wow. That's gonna be powerful.

Further clarification. Let's take the troll bear shifter idea because it's got variance in both ways.

Agility for troll: 1/5
Agility for bear: 1/4

Which do you take? Do you increase the base to the 1/5 or take the lower stat, or further reduce it by 1 to 1/3?

Lower to 1/3.

Ouch. Hooray for balance!

Okay, so assuming 7/12 on bod/str for bear shifter (6 point spread that way), you end up with this for the Troll-bear shifter

Bod: 12/22 (33), Agi: 1/3 (5), Reac: 1/5, Str: 12/22 (33), Cha: 1/4 (6), Int: 1/4 (6), Log: 1/4 (6), Will 1/5 (7), Init: 2/9 (14)

Big, slow, and not overly bright, but nigh unstoppable physically and if he hits you (esp with a bow), you're completely hosed. Interesting tradeoffs. Definitely gonna have to see how some of these combinations play.

Actually, that's a good question...so it could me Mr. PanzerBjorn Elf is actually 1/5 Agility, and 1/8 charisma, which would be interesting. Either way I'm cool with it. I just like the idea.

Hmm...the Bear stats don't look off...they would be(if you added the stats) +6 Str and Bod(+12), -1's to Reaction, Intuition, Willpower and Logic, and -2 to Agility( for a total of +6.) The +1 Reach is in their bear form only, as is their armor bonus, though they keep the Smell.

Trolls are +4 to Body/Strength, -1 to Agility, -2 Charisma and Logic, -1 to...reaction, was it? That comes out to an even +/- 4. They also get their +1 reach all the time, same with the natural armor.

But yeah, a troll bear shifter would have some crazy stats in those two.

EDIT: Ahh, answered there. Well, seems cool. Then again, with an agility of 3 and the ability to not have cyberwear work in a human form, he's going to have a hell of a time hitting stuff. (Unless he's an Adept and pays all of his points for Increased Agility...which, in this system...would be a 4 max. He'd have to rely heavily on Improved Skill(Bow), for example).

Now, as a TANK...this guy would be nigh unstoppable, indeed.

The last one was for Intuition and Logic actually. Troll reaction is human norm. Bear shifter is where the negative on that came from.

Gah! I mistook the Troll. Yeah, it's -1 Agl, Log, Intuition, and Agility, -2 Charisma. +4 Body, +4 Strength. +2 total...but with +1 Reach, +1 Dermal Armor, and Natural Thermographic vision. Cost: 40 BP.

How are the Shifter stats off? The bear does have some hefty trades for his +6 Body/Strength, Enhanced Smell, +1 Reach and Natural Armor(latter in Bear Form only and tough to use on a run if they are on a running team since they are so huge), being -2 Agl, -1 Reaction, Logic, Intuition, and Willpower, along with the tasty Silver Allergy(Severe), Vulnerability(Silver), and Uneducated that all shifters come with, at the cost of 80 BPs.

Hmm...if anything, the bears get the short end of the stick. +6 Strength(Str being looked at as one of the most useless stats in the game by the average SR player) probably isn't the selling point to a bear, and hell, even TrollBowBear, again, without significant Adept Power increases in his active skill(his Agility being capped at forever 4 unless he takes Exceptional Attribute for 20 BP/40 Karma), is going to have maybe half the dice that CyberHeavyMachineGunIHaveATonOfAgilityAndASmartlink Ork.

Looking at the other shifters: Foxes are -1 Body, -2 Strength and -1 Reach in animal form, but +1 Agl, Rea, and Intuition, enhanced hearing, low-light vision, smell AND taste. Fox form is also much more viable to use in a cramped area, for a cost of 50 BP. Getting bonuses to things that add to Initative and every combat roll...yeah. The Body minus can be offset, as can the Str minus with little trouble. As a gunner, these would be hell on wheels. (hell, enough Martial Arts DV bonuses/critical strikes, that little Str 3 Fox Demon will go nine-tails on someone's ass in a hardcore way.)

Wolves are totally even-normal, at 55 BPs, with the addition of enhanced hearing, low-light vision, smell, and taste. 55 BP might be a bit much for these guys, IMO. The senses are nice, but they get the same drawbacks as anyone else. They do get their natural attack form, at least. I would say 40, unless the BP cost is for a rarity thing.

At 60 we have the Eagle. Whoooo. NO minuses, +1 Charisma, +2 Willpower, Vision Enhancement 2, Vision Magnification. Oh, yeah, they can fly. 60 BPs. IMO, I would say Eagle should be worth the 80 instead of Bear.

Leopard/Jaguar is up next, at 65. +2 Body, +4(!!) Agility, +1 Reaction, +1 Strength, -1 Charisma, Int, Log, and Willpower. Enhanced vision: Hearing, Low-Light, Vision, and Smell. These guys are LESS than Bear? +4 Agility is huge, IMO. Not to mention a running rate that makes some street vehicles scared. Ok, I'd maybe stick Eagle at 75, and THESE guys at 80.

Okies, now we have the cute and cuddly Seal. +3 Body, +3 Agility, +1 Strength, -1 Willpower, Low Light Vision. These guys are 70. They have that disadvantage of being rather crappy on land, however, in their animal form, and I'm guessing their animal attack is less than impressive(well, that tail with their little Strength bonus can hurt, I suppose.) Still, their stat bonuses are pretty big, and I would say Seal is worth it's BP cost, even with that little ''disadvantage''. They can always go home to their indoor swimming pool after a run.

75 is the mighty Tiger and Lion. +3 Body, +4 Agility, +1 Reaction, +2 Strength, -1 Intuition, Logic, and Willpower. Animal form has +1 Reach and enhanced hearing, low-light AND smell. I'd say these guys are worth 75.

And above, we have the humble Bear. IMO, again, Bear gets the short end of the stick. I'd say Fox is appropriately priced, Wolf could stand to be cheaper, though. Eagle and Jaguar/Leopard could stand to be a bit more expensive for what they get, Seal and Tiger/Lion are good. I'd say Bear could stand to be cheaper.

Now, I'm not sure if there is like ''a solid method'' here. I like the idea of the ''even +/-'' thing, though Tiger and Lion don't have that(they are +7 overall, with the extra bonuses), Seals are +6 as well as Bears. I'm not sure all the attributes are equal, though...and I guess that's been discussed before. Are the attributes that are chosen taken into consideration? Eagle spellcasters can be pretty scary, and any of the big cats would be the ultimate combat monkey with that agility boost(it's equal to Level 4 Muscle Toner. They don't even need ware).

So the ''six-point'' range, I'm guessing is that all of the positives are balanced out by the negatives that equal 6 points, correct? If so, Bear and Seal are kosher; so is Jaguar for that matter, though +4 Agility is a biggie. Tiger/Lion are +7, however.

But I DO overall like the shifter rules a LOT, and I'm having a blast fiddling with my elven Panzerbjorn(I can see a lot of RP opportunities coming up with this guy. For the record, I had plenty of points to do what I wanted to with him even with Bear's cost as is.) I just have a few minor quibbles about the pricing(again, I'd lower Wolf, lower Bear, increase the big cats and Eagle. Seal and Fox I think are well where they are.)

No it's the standart range of 6 points between the atripute minumums and maximums, some of the shifters do not conform to this and that is supposedly a missprint so it will possibly be erreated.

Ahhh...I gotcha. So, like, the Tiger/Lion with a Strength of 3/8...is a 5 point range. Bear's 7/13 is a 6 point range. (I guess attributes with minuses are already kind of done...like the Dwarf's 1/5 Reaction, or a Seal's 1/5 Willpower.) Then again, Elves have 3/8 Charisma compared to Eagle's 3/9. Seal has a 4/9 Agility.

I think I gotcha. Yeah, a few of the shifters seem a little off there...Fox conforms, Bear conforms and Wolf conforms totally.

Jaguar has 3/8 Body and 5/8 Agility(yeah, that's a bit off), Seal's 4/9 Agility sounds a bit off, Eagle's 3/9 Willpower sounds off, Tiger/Lion's 4/9 Body and 3/8 Strength is on(just like an Ork), but their Agility is that odd 5/8 again.

Well, I guess a few of them will get cleared up.

NO the all the basic metatypes atriputes conform exactly to six point range(ie. 1/6, 2/7, 3/8, 4/9, 5/10 etc.) well execp those which have maximum less the 6 of cource

so going up would be 6/11, 7/12, 8/13, etc. Gotcha. Damn, in that case, a bunch of the shifters need some adjustment. Fox, Seal, and Wolf are the only ones that conform, in that case, totally. So Bear should be 7/12 for their Body and Strength(in that case, they really should be worth a bit less than 80), Tiger and Leopard's Agility should be...5/10(which, in that case, they maybe should be worth a bit more, as I said.) Eagle's Willpower going down to 3/8 I think makes their cost more appropriate, actually. Looking at it again, I guess I was a bit wondering due to their A. No minuses and B. Flying. But I think Eagle overall is ok where it is.

Yeah, again, I think Fox, Eagle, and Seal are worth the points-Wolf and Bear should be cheaper for what they get, while the Cats really should be the more upper-end. Just my opinion, though...YMMV.

Presently the assumption I'm working off of is that the minimum number is always right, and the max number needs adjusting. So 5/10 for Leopard/Jaguar/Lion/Tiger agility, 7/12 Bear Str/Bod, etc. I went that way because it seems reasonable to me to have the cats being stupidly agile. That's kinda their thing.

Yeah, that's how I kinda figured it.

Hmm...another thing. I noticed in the ''Sapient Critter'' area, they have Uneducated as an automatic Negative quality.

However, under the Shapeshifter setting on page 88, it said Uncouth and Uneducated are ''highly appropriate'', but not automatic. I was assuming Shapeshifters were a type of Sapient Critter...but I guess not? So Shifters DON'T have an automatic Uneducated quality?

Reading the section I can't see anything which means you have to have them.... So I guess they don't. As the Sapient Critter bit which says about Uneducated is the final bit of the section before Shifters I suspect it doesn't apply.

I guess shifters involve themselves in the 6th world faster and more readily than Sapient Critters, is my guess, which gives them the option, rather than the requirement.

It makes sense really, if you have to fake being a species you kind of have to look into them first.

Otherwise you end up drawing attention pretty quickly and getting chopped up and sold to the nearest corporate lab.

True enough. I was curious, because I wasn't sure if they were a TYPE of sapient critter, or their own thing. But it does make sense. I don't doubt that they are decent in working with humans these days, though they may or may not prefer it(I guess it depends on the specific character, overall.)

I'd rule they're definitely they're own thing, given they have their own section. If they'd been intended as a Sapient Critter, they'd have been part of that same section.

Actually, it would be better if you all read the rules (including the witers *looks at AH*) before going about trying to make all these strange changes that they're thinking about making into errata.

If you read the "Not always Quite Human" rule in Runner's Compainon, you see that it says



Metatype "Abilities" If you actually go look at the Table on page 72, you see that there is a very specific columm called "Metatype abilities." Those are the only "Abilities" that you gain while in a Metatype form as a shifter. It doesn't include the attributes, its only the special abilities, such as low light vision, or the troll's +1 reach.

So...wait, but one of the devs just included ''attributes'' into this...that is making it into the errata.



So it looked like they MEANT to say that's what it was...but it didn't come out that way. I mean, it makes sense to me...you pay the extra BPs, get the bonuses and the penalties like anything else.

The Dev/Author should've read the rule and seen what it said before making knee jerk assumptions. Apparently playtesting or someone did catch/change it, because the current "Not always quite human" specifically refers to "Metahuman ABILITIES" which has nothing to do with the stats.

Again, go to the page/chart referenced in the rules. Three's a column that says "Metahuman abilities" You'll notice that the only stat bonuses there are the human's +1 Edge, and the troll's +1 armor.

The rule works as written without being errata'd. Whatever form you shapeshift to you keep the same stats, but if you shift into a bear, you get its claws, if you shift to a troll, you get the dermal armor and reach. You don't wind up with 2-3 different statblocks, you don't have to figure out how multiple bonuses stack.

Its simpler, it works the way the rule is written, and doesn't require errata.

I don't always see everything post-edit. Sorry.

When in doubt always take the rules in the book and any official errata or FAQ over the author's take on it.

No problems. Just a bit of confusion, some clarity, a bit more confusion, and now it's clear again.

It actually didn't change the character at all the way I built him either way, so I really don't mind how it was ruled. If anything it makes life easier not having to add and subtract more sets of stats. *remembers the nightmare of shapeshifters of old with split stats and shudders*

Ok, so...Metahuman Form=Regular Bonuses(vision for all, Reach for trolls, Poison/Disease dice for dwarves), but attributes stay as the animal, in both forms, unless specified. So his stats (after purchased with the Karma method) 11/4/4/11/4/4/3/3 in both of his forms(elf and bear), with +1 reach, +1 natural armor in Bear form.

Yeah, that IS a lot easier than the old ones.

Well I do think that "Not Always Quite Human" does include attribute Modifications, else you would not have the extra cost in many cases.

With the attributes of the shifter types, I rather think the maximum is right and the minimum often is a glitch. This seems much more likely (at least to me). Normaly, if I'd be working on this, I would set a maximum and then derive the minimum and augmentated max. However I hope this will be adressed in an errata soon as the RC seems to be rather heavy on glitches.

So potentially a troll fox shifter with a body of 6 max? Granted, I'm not sure I was fully comfortable with the stacking stat mods, but *not* modifying for a metatype seems a little off in a way, esp if there's that much disparity.

I think I'll go with the original idea of stacking mods and wait for official errata to clear it up.

I concur. Why would a troll shifter be costing me 40pts more for only thermo. vis. and +1reach?

Damnit, now more points are brought up. @_@

True. It's easy to buy a ''smaller'' race with big Body/Strength bonuses like a Dwarf, Elf, or even Ork moving ''up''(though in some ways, moving down. Dwarf Bears would get a Reaction hit, Orks would get some). But picturing a Troll Fox shifter with a MAX Body of 5/Str of 4 IS rather hard to swallow. And you're right, while I could maybe fathom paying 10 BPs for Low-Light natural vision(orks), or maybe 15 BPs for natural thermographic vision and +2 Body dice for disease/poisons...+1 reach, dermal armor and vision I'm not sure if is worth 30 BP, especially if you end up losing a crapload of Body and Strength(though Body is indeed the bigger loss here-fox shifter, wolf shifter). I know Elf natural low light isn't worth 20 BPs, especially if 'Orks' only have to pay 10 for it...

Yeah, waiting on errata. [I guess Errata is going to clear up what they metas get and what they don't, their BP costs and the actual supposed minimums/maximums of the shifter types?] Again, I do like these rules a lot actually, they are miles beyond the old shifter rules. But it was just a few things that started coming to light after I started fiddling more with the character(namely, wanting to make him an elf.)



Thinking again, I could see it both ways, really. Thinking the max is the glitch can make sense(Eagle may well have been 3/8 on Willpower]...OR the minimum(maybe the big cats WERE 3/8 Agility, Eagle 4/9 Willpower, and Bear 8/13 Body/Strength.)

Well, no use going nuts about it. It will all become clear. I think.

Especially if you note that most shifters will have low-light vision anyway.



Taking the min for the glitch and the max for true, would also fit the BP-Cost.

Good point. So Orks would be paying for...tusks and Elves for...erm...pointy ears for the most part, unless they played Eagle or Bear.




I'd buy that Bear might be worth 80 points if they got to start with an 8 Body and Strength; the Body is the big seller here, the Strength is more or less a nice bonus. Trolls are 40 BP and start with 5's, with other goodies, Bears get other goodies, too(the Regeneration is awesome. I mean, even Wolf shouldn't be worth less than 45-50 BPs because of that, but I do think 55 is a BIT much for Wolf...I still somehow think 50 might be better there.) 50 BPs is a good minimum for any Shifter, IMO, due to that fact.

I'd STILL be tempted to say Bear is still more in the 70 range and the big cats 80, due to the massive boosts they get overall(Agility boost really are huge, since AGL does link to every combat skill AND a heap of other ones; decent Bod and Str boosts on top of that. The fact that Tiger/Lion also get get no Charisma minuses make them also perfectly viable social-wise, as well...then again, all but one shifter gets no Charisma penalty, which I thought was nice.)

Regeneration will be a good portion of the cost I guess. While playing around with the mods and the cost for a while, I think the costs work out somewhat fine. Eagle maybe underestimated by it's cost, but then again it is more of a specialist. Flying is asome, but once inside a building, I'd prefer to be fast on foot... Eagle seems hard to judge so maybe it's ok.

The Wolf... I thought Wolf should have gotten more at first, but when I started thinking about what it should be, nothing came to my mind. Wolf has what he is prominet for, I think. The greatest strength a wolf has are his pack, his senses and teeth, hes got all of that. Maybe an Edge Bonus akin to humans would have been the way to go; then again...wolf-packs weren't all that lucky comparing to humans.

The big cats seem ok to me, by cost and other means, they are not cheap have good stats but do not go into extremes (working with the printed max here).

Bear on the other hand, is going into extremes in a trolly kind of way. Bear shifters may not be the most agile, but that can be compensated. If they do hit, it might aswell be that it is the only hit they need (sort of). Their insane body attribute does not only keep them from taking too much damage, it grants larger condition monitors, heavy overflow tolerance and a larger regeneration pool. So they take less while being able to take more and heal fast. This is extremely powerful. If you really are missing something, well... you always can come up with 5 BP for an adept quality. Bears are worth the points.

Oh, thing is, with my Bear, I am totally satisfied with him. I don't need extra points, so it wasn't complaining as much...I was more or less looking at it in a different light, I think. I think I was going by the ''attribute weight'' that seems to come up sometimes. For example, the fact that Agility, Logic, and Charisma have more linking skills than, say, Strength to me gives the attributes more weight. Strength, essentially...it's a *cool* stat, but when the little old man can slap on some Hardliners(negligible cost +1DV), get +4 DV to his unarmed damage via martial arts(4 levels, or 20 BP worth), and have a Strength of 2 and STILL be smacking for 6 DV...as much as someone with a 12 strength(a LOT more than 20 BP)..well, it shows that Strength isn't the end all be all of physical damage. Again, it's *nice* to have but it almost seems like a bonus-like if you're playing said little old man(from a technical point of view), AFTER you get done buying your Agility, Body, Martial Arts skills and qualities...THEN you see ''do I have enough left over for another point of Strength?''

I'll give you Body, though. Definitely awesome in the sense of wearing armor and physical condition monitor(a Bear STARTS with a Condition Monitor of 12.) Now, Eagle's Willpower...if it indeed comes to a 9, they start with a Stun Monitor of 10(minimum), and can get up to a 13(which is HUGE for a stun monitor.) Ill even give you that in coupled with the massive regeneration power, that much body ensues that Bear is an amazing tank that is just damned hard to bring down.

Wolf getting an Edge bonus...I kind of like that idea, honestly. It sort of makes them the ''Humans'' of the Shifter world.

I guess I still have trouble swallowing that the shifters that gets a +4 Agility, +3 Body, +1 Reaction, +2 Strength is weaker than +6 Body/Strength. Even assuming Str carries less ''weight''...is +6 to Body equal to +4 Agil/+3 Bod/+1 Reaction? (If the printed max of Big Cat Agilty becomes a 10..I would absolutely put them more expensive than Bear, especially if they keep all of the other bonuses.) I can see your point if right now, the Maxes are the proper numbers, and the Minimums are wrong, that the points might be accurate.

BUT...then again...it could just be me thinking too hard about things. (I guess with the prevalence of massive guntech and the like, whenever I see that huge Agility bonus i'm like ''whoa!'') But this brings me back to thinking of the one thread not that long ago(still on this page, even), about Metahuman costs and how they never HAVE been 100% balanced. I suppose it's just part of the deal, in a way.

I am fully with you here!

IF the Agility max was 10, I guess you would be right, claiming the cats to be too low on cost. Like I stated however, I do not think a maximum of 10 on agility is intended.

Strength is not used that much, right but there is still much that a high strength can achieve with brute force (intimidation boni, feats of strength and so on). There are ways to uppen the DV of a bear as he could learn MA or be an adept, he does allready do decent damage in melee however. Whil MA are cool for combat and strength is low on use, it is still usefull for more things than just DV. About the old man... ok so he may have extra DV... Crush him with your weight and mass - I wonder what damage he will deal then

Should the "strength vs recoil" rules apply at your table, you also gain something to compensate for missing agility in a gunfight... use automatic weapons.

Achieving balance is hard and I think it is safe to say, that it's close to impossible to reach a level of game balance that pleases every single player.

You indeed may be thinking to hard about all this, but I guess we all do. In fact I think that is why we are on these boards

Heh, totally. I mean, I'm one to say ''Fun before Everything.'' (Funny thing is, even with Strength being a rather low-end stat, I still *like* the stat. I like playing a guy that can lift a motorcycle over his head, even if he rolls a couple less dice to hit people with.) In the end, the costs of the Shifters isn't my biggest concern; it was more of a few little things I noticed. I guess if I had a 'main concern' it's how the metahuman shifters are going to pan out. a Fox shifter(50 BP) that pays 30 BP to be a Troll...by the rules, ends up a big troll...with a 1/5 Body, a 1/4 Strength, +1 Reach, Natural Armor, and Thermographic Vision. I mean...if that's how it is, that's how it is...but it DOES seem mighty odd sounding to me.

Likewise, it kind of blows that elves and orks are playing 10/20 BP most of the time for...pointy ears and/or tusks. I'm all for dropping a big load of karma on knowledge/language skills for RP, I'm all about buying those odd skills out at a low level for RP purposes...but for some reason the appeal of tossing away 10-20BP(20-40 karma) for literally something I can get with 5-10k of resources sort of baffles me.

Again, though, all in all, the new shifter/shift human rules themselves work very well and I've no complaints at all. It's when you start crossing metahuman/shifters that things get hairy(rimshot).

Indeed the shifter/metahuman thing is tricky, but like I said, I will go by the "whole package" for the cost. looking orkish or elvish may be worth 5BP as a quality at best, as it comes with additional social bias. Also you are right, while a fox shifting into a troll may be somewhat odd in the first place, a Troll with a maximum Body of 5 (the minimum of trolls - which the fox is not likely to max) just doesn't transport the "message".

Also while a Bear turning troll might be tough statwise, a troll can easily get cyber and bio at chargen, that ups strength and agility by 4/3, gives him additional melee damage and damage resistance /armor and so on... a 400 BP Troll shouldn't have that much trouble with a bear shifter on the same amount of points, even if the bear is a troll aswell... then again, it could turn out as a fair match. It all depends if the bear has something to boost his ini passes, else the troll will have an easy game (given that he has the warez, but why shouldn't he).

I'm gonna add this latest confusion to the errata thread. I know Synner has responded there before. Maybe he'll respond there again and help clear this up, or at least acknowledge that he's working on clarification.

why has no one considered that maybe shifters just have a less-than-6 point spread in their weird stats? There are several examples of less than six spreads elsewhere, only they all have a lower bound of 1. I see no reason we can't use the ability ranges as is.

Yes, but as I mentioned when I started bringing this up, any example of a greater than 1 minimum stat has *always* adhered to a 6 point stat range. The only exception I can see with that being Spirits, because their range is 2-Force, which could very well be 2,3, or 10 or whatever.

It has also been hinted, that it is most probably a case for the errata... so something seems to be in err, so to say.

Same reason that Free Spirits went from being 85 BPs, then gained 100 BP worth of stats, and suddenly shot up to being 250 BP to take. The authors have already said that costs aren't always equal.

Saying that getting the alternate form is worth (BP-10) is much easier than them trying to stat out exact BP costs for the abilities of every metavariant out there (especially with all the new ones, we're up to what, 22 Metavariants now?), then applying each of those BP costs to all the different shifters (7 I believe) while trying not to overlap the abilities. "Oh, you're playing a Jaguar, well then you have to pay the BP for low light vision for being an elf, but the Leopard shifter doesn't because they have it already."

It would be mass confusion and we'd have an entire page full of costs for all the various combinations. Saying "Metahuman cost-10" is much much much simpler.

On the Fox/Troll question...well, what are you expecting? Yes, a small creature like a fox is going to transform into a small troll. Its also going to be a relatively smaller human in most cases. Even the shapeshift spell has always had a limit on what exactly it can do. Maybe there's a reason the 2.8kg Fox can't turn into a 300kg Troll?

The rules work as stated. Its just that people are reading into them what they want, instead of what they say. I mean, when you shift into human form you don't suddenly get all your stats shifted back to human norms, why should you for the other races?

We are not talking about norms (statwise) but about relative stats. It will never be worth it to spend 20bp for being an elf poser and having lowlight vision, even if you didn't have it before, if 10 are in case of an ork, I doubt it. Pure appearance changes could have gone under the same category as the shifter variations in the black panel. Until I do get something official, I concur with the explanation AH gave here, as it seems somewhat logical to me.



For the Fox, yes he would ofcause be a smaller troll... but not necesarly a tiny one. I do however see your point and there are many ways to view this, I simply am not convinced enough to let mine down.

My way has the rules behind it AH's way seems to be solely based on what was said in the original question, which isn't what the rules say (based on what he says in reply #26).

My way also doesn't allow you to have a body 17 troll running around

And again, you're assuming that the costs in SR4 are based on fairness, which Runner's Companion has shown that they most emphatically are not.

Because arbitrary ≡ fun!

Hey, not my ruleset. I think its pretty dumb that metavariants seem to have random modifiers thrown in, and free spirits gain 100 points worth of attributes, but have a cost increase of 165.

But since the devs have said that that's the case, using "The points don't add up" as an argument isn't really worth anything.

The thing with you having the rules behind you, is, that I am not convinced of that "fact". Those books have always proven to be meaning what the say. While the word "abilities" can be found in both paragraphs, it does not mean that they refer to each other. To me Attributes are abilities as well. With Rules I can go by the word, I mostly do that if I want to tease people, but mostly I try to understand the meaning over the wording. This may not make me a good lawyer, but worked out so far. Also I do not say that I am right and you are wrong, as in my eyes none of the theories has been aprooved.

As for Trolls with a body of 17... if you do not want them you have to rule some stuff out of your game (not limited to but including) cyber and bioware for example.

There are many ways to view it and most of them will have a point of some sort I guess. Well see and houseruling is a sport anyways.

Since DreadPirateKitten and I got into this on IRC, and the last two questions for RC errata have been brought up...

One of DKP's points is that you can get basically the same effect for taking a 5 point negative flaw if you want to play an "elf" shifter, so for 20 BP you'd better get the stats bonuses as well.

My points, as usual, are that

a) the writers have pretty much said BP costs for things in RC are arbitrary and in no way fair
b) The rule says "metatype abilities" and refer to a chart that has a specific column for "metatype abilities"
c) If you play an eagle/bear shifter that can shapeshift into an Elf, then you get ALL of the elf's abilities...for less than an elf pays. How can that be fair?


edit
misread the table, changed jaguar to eagle/bear
/edit

Essentially, paying build points for nothing is completely silly.

It makes no sense, and it'd cause less damage to my "silly-dar"(thats a radar that detects silliness), by the by, if the whole option was just banned. You can already add little fake ends to your ears, paying 20 bp to gain no life span, no vision, no stats, and no benefits at all, but possibly some anti-elf prejudice seems like a serious loser of an option.

So basically, consider this my shout out to removing completely pointless options from future books, or, to not charging 20 bp for "looking like an elf instead of a human". Those 20 bp could be 2 more charisma. Come on.

Charging 5 bp to have crazy colored skin, when you charge 0 to have a beneficial stomach is also silly.