Current status of Tir Taingire, And its current relationship with other West Coast entities Options

[CanRay]

For example, an ashen rain plagued part of the Barrens turning into a B zone (Tarislar), retconning parts of the SSC that have been SSC for almost 20 years of SR publication into Seattle, and the handling of the arcology (A low-level housing enclave in the prime business district of an enclave short on room to build stuff but big on business. RIGHT.)

Hey, the ACHE rocks!

And who says all it does is Welfare Housing...

Hey, look at that Welfare Contract...

Instant Drafting during times of war?

Agreeance for trials of military drugs without knowledge?

Only beer for sale is Soyweiser?

It's a Hell! A living Hell! Some people liked it better when the AI was in charge!

Oh, and the rooftop is still off-limits. I bet the General and his troops are having orgies up there or something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[hyzmarca]

Hey, if Aztechnology can use spin doctoring to make itself seem like a happy, decent corporation to all the Unwashed Masses, then Horizon could EASILY sell an AI!

Aztechnology is a happy decent corporation. Its just that some times when you're working to make the world a better place for everyone you have to kill some motherfuckers and use their blood to power vast arcane rituals which may or may not bring horrific creatures to the earth. If their plan actually worked, the world would have been safe from the Horrors for the rest of the manacycle. It probably wouldn't have, but you never know.

[Not of this Worl...]

If by Final Fantasy-style magic you mean that magic is a generally accepted part of the world, then, yes it is. It's been 20 years in-game. Think about how different society is now in comparison to 1988. From a story-telling standpoint it would require an extreme suspension-of-disbelief to have any society maintain a "ooo, magic is spooky" attitude when it's been a part of the cultural landscape for decades. And the fact that there's magic, elves and dragons? That is the definition of a fantasy setting. And virtual reality, artificial intelligence, and criminal hacking adventures? That's cyberpunk. And like has been mentioned many times in this thread, if you don't like the world of 2070s Shadowrun, then set yours back in the 2050s.

Wow, that was the first in a long series of straw mans. Why am I not surprised that you failed to even get my basic point? What I don't like about magic in SR4 is that it has been overly watered down to being just "Magic" and all semblance to ancient earth folklore is being diluted out.

Now this may come as a big shock to you, but SR3 had Virtual reality (in fact the real thing, not everything is Wi-Fi and I can computer hack your kitchen utensils by looking at them), AIs, and even better yet it treated technology as technology and not mystic "techno-powers" like SR4 seems to. Otaku were a rarity and not yet entirely explained with metaphysical mumbo-jumbo.

Ask yourself this: how special would a dragon be if you could hose it down with a gatling gun and be done with it? They're not unkillable. It's simply very, very hard to kill them. They're not cannon fodder like security guards and ghouls.

It would be just fine. In fact in the very first Shadowrun novel ever printed they did just that, and yet it remained a very credible, tense and scary moment. In otherwords it contained a lot of suspense and drama that actually makes good reading. Most people consider "G-d like powers and can do whatever it wants" to make for very boring stories and it is why you won't see many of them in the fiction section of your local bookstore. Certainly not on the bestsellers list. It is that very reason that people hated IEs in 2nd edition, but all 4th edition has done is brought them back with the name of "Dragons".

All of the FASA-era location sourcebooks are out of date and have been since third edition. They're good for basic location rundowns but, again, it's been 10-15 years since those Shadowland entries were written. I have a large Shadowrun library which I obtained at great cost but I'm not complaining about a few leadership changes to one of the settings. Everything I've seen so far still indicates that the Tirs are still the "Israels" for the metahuman races.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining simply that leaders were changed. Dunkelzahn's death greatly impacted the world of Shadowrun and was done in an awesome way storywise. But SR4 isn't about removing leaders for dramatic reasons or even intrique. The flippant way in which they replace most major figures shows me that they're just trying to dismiss the existing canon. As I said it is just like the Shadowrun video game for X-box, only at least that game didn't do us the disservice of pretending to be the same universe. But I'm not surprised you're not getting it or being obtuse because the Tir were NEVER anything like "Metahuman Israelis".

The Tirs are all about elves, particularly an ancient elven culture that came from some previous age of magic based off of either Irish mythology or Earthdawn (and in Findley's great style you could pick depending on which Shadowtalk you choose to believe). So of course when you're rebuilding your great Elven empire from the previous age you abdicate power and put an Ork in charge to represent your elven cultural takeover?

Anything that stays the same forever becomes tired and boring and from a business standpoint, who wants to sell that kind of game? You're making it sound like everything that has been established in continuity by FASA and FanPro has been wiped off the map which is a pretty serious snap judgment and is based very little in fact.

That is pure fanboy nonsense. A static world simply isn't Shadowrun (though it should be pointed out that Milton-Bradley makes a killing with THOSE types of games, more than ANY RPG).

But what you and the developers of 4.0 seem to have no clue of is PLOT and CONTINUITY. Do you realize that there is a good reason why stories have continuity and movie sets have people on set who simply keep track of those things? But those things are why SR has gone from 2nd most popular RPG to surprised if the next local game store I walk into even carries it in hardback.

I understand that people who really love their "Cult" or "niche" product will do everything it takes to defend it from mass popularity. But that more popular Shadowrun is still the one that some of us want back. In business one of the general rules for expanding and adding customers is not to accept scaring off your old customers because there is never any guarantee the new customers will buy or stay loyal, but loyal and branded customers are what every marketing exec strives for.

Catalyst games has done an excellent job with Battletech and that came has come back out of nowhere. A big part of that is getting old players back and allowing all versions of the game. I guarantee that battletech strategy will be more successful than "out with the old, in with the new customers" on Shadowrun.

Anyways, just like the last days of 2nd edition sometimes things have to get worse and hit bottom before people are willing to accept the kinds of change to make it better. I hope 5th edition (or 3.5) is quick in coming and decides to go back to the attitude, continuity and feel of 1st or 3rd edition stories.

[Rasumichin]

Also, I loath the Matrix trilogy, so I don't care much for porting Neo's concept into SR.

Otaku have been a part of SR before any of that crap hit the box office and the main difference between them and TMs is that you don't have to strain your suspension of disbelieve to make a 12 year old run the shadows and that you get an explanation for why they can influence the matrix with their brain alone.
So, i don't quite get your constant Neo remarks.
Another problem with one of your players?

Uhm, of course is a 180 degree turn in treating the infected an important setting issue.

Infected rights are another setting element that has been around since SR2.
You might have noticed stuff like Cabrini Green, bounties on ghouls being removed in several jurisdictions, dicussion of the whole issue among metahuman rights activists and so on throughout SR2-3.

The changes in RC where not exactly overdue, but in contrast to some other developments, they where not premature, either.

Now this may come as a big shock to you, but SR3 had Virtual reality (in fact the real thing, not everything is Wi-Fi and I can computer hack your kitchen utensils by looking at them), AIs, and even better yet it treated technology as technology and not mystic "techno-powers" like SR4 seems to. Otaku were a rarity and not yet entirely explained with metaphysical mumbo-jumbo.

"The real thing".
Yeah, right, clinging to an 80s vision of the future until it becomes ridiculous.
Great.
So, you would prefer a world 60 years from now with computer technology that already appeared partially outdated in the mid 90s?
And otaku whose powers are completely unexplained and do not even at least pretend to make sense?


I agree on the great dragon part, though.
Turning GDs into the new Mary Sues was one of the worst decisions in 4e (and giving example stats that showed that Ghostwalker's behaviour in Denver would have gotten him instakilled without plot immunity didn't make it any better- not that coming up with Ghostwalker was a good idea in the first place).


But my intense dislike for Mary Sues and continuity wank is exactly the reason why i never was too happy with TT to begin with.

Yeah, they could have done something better to remove that bunch of disgusting pet NSC.
I wouldn't have dreamt of putting an ork in charge there, either.
From what we can tell, it doesn't make any sense at all, i completely agree on that point, too.

But getting rid of Lugh, Ehran and the rest of that plotwanky pointy ears is a change i certainly welcome.

[Not of this Worl...]

Otaku have been a part of SR before any of that crap hit the box office and the main difference between them and TMs is that you don't have to strain your suspension of disbelieve to make a 12 year old run the shadows and that you get an explanation for why they can influence the matrix with their brain alone.
So, i don't quite get your constant Neo remarks.
Another problem with one of your players?

I think the issue is that Otaku were their own unique thing that came out of cyberpunk literature where Technomancers are more of an exact rip-off of the Matrix movies. Why dump what is uniquely yours for something that is more of a copy?

Infected rights are another setting element that has been around since SR2.
You might have noticed stuff like Cabrini Green, bounties on ghouls being removed in several jurisdictions, dicussion of the whole issue among metahuman rights activists and so on throughout SR2-3.

The changes in RC where not exactly overdue, but in contrast to some other developments, they where not premature, either.

"in contrast to other developments"?? So are we scaling an acceptable amount of badness here. A lot of this is probably because of the stiff time jump to 4th edition, but I consider that another bad decision. Too many things changed too fast for old school Shadowrunners. 1st to 2nd, and 2nd to 3rd editions had smooth transitions that advanced time at a regular pace without a "jump" in the calendar so as to come up with all kinds of excuses to scrub the setting clean. While this change in and of itself wasn't bad, it is just one more thing like the Tir changes that contribute to them trying to rewrite the entire setting of Shadowrun.

"The real thing".
Yeah, right, clinging to an 80s vision of the future until it becomes ridiculous.
Great.
So, you would prefer a world 60 years from now with computer technology that already appeared partially outdated in the mid 90s?
And otaku whose powers are completely unexplained and do not even at least pretend to make sense?

Not completely explaining everything is one of the things that makes Shadowrun great. Every GM has wide license to accept what they want the reality to be in how they interpret 3rd edition sourcebooks. The 80s comment is just silly. 3rd edition was nothing like playing in the 80s, the advancements kept pace with the development of the license . The problem is that 4th edition rather wants to erase all continuity of those "80s" elements. The whole wi-fi thing is just taken too far because land line technology and virtual reality aren't obsolete, in fact virtual reality is more today than ever before with MMO gaming and land lines continue to be the unreplacable backbones of the internet and wi-fi is just the peripheral attachment that 3rd edition treated it as. Augmented reality would have made a nice addition to the Shadowrun universe, but I find it makes a lousy replacement to the cyberpunk elements of Shadowrun.

I agree on the great dragon part, though.
Turning GDs into the new Mary Sues was one of the worst decisions in 4e (and giving example stats that showed that Ghostwalker's behaviour in Denver would have gotten him instakilled without plot immunity didn't make it any better- not that coming up with Ghostwalker was a good idea in the first place).

But my intense dislike for Mary Sues and continuity wank is exactly the reason why i never was too happy with TT to begin with.

Yeah, they could have done something better to remove that bunch of disgusting pet NSC.
I wouldn't have dreamt of putting an ork in charge there, either.
From what we can tell, it doesn't make any sense at all, i completely agree on that point, too.

But getting rid of Lugh, Ehran and the rest of that plotwanky pointy ears is a change i certainly welcome.

Glad to see some common ground emerge at least. I just happen to disagree that the Tir elves were plotwanky Mary Sues. There are only 3 IEs I put in that category: Leonardo (properly killed off), Harlequin (slapped back down to his level), Alachia (still needs to be punked).

What specifically didn't you like about the Tir elves?

As a GM I loved them because each one was a treasure trove of plot hooks, twists, and a useful device for getting the runners into locations they'd rather not be.

[Angier]

Tir Tairngire == Elven Mormonic State.
Think about it.

That is just plain silly, as there is already a state based on elven autocracy and deeply rooted in mythology: Tir na nOg. No need for Tairngire in the first place.

[NightmareX]

Yeah, it might get you on bad footing with NPC with stats of n+10. So? Same goes for any run against Saeder-Krupp......I don't really see where an IE would be such an incredibly more disproportionate threat to the runners. Odds are the IE'd send kill squads just like everyone else would, anyway.

You're completely right here. However, that still doesn't change player perceptions one iota (I know, I've tried).

If your playersd are against running in the Tir for metagaming reasons, you might lay that out to them.

Accomplishing what precisely? You can't make players do anything - at least not without tons of whining later.

Pulling the princes out of power seems just as contrived as everything else about 4th edition which is on a crash course to becoming as insipid and stupid as the X-box game.

Hardly! The x-box game isn't even SR just a FPS with the SR logo slapped on it. Pulling the princes out (IF they are really out) is only on that scale in your opinion. Kicking out the princes simply does not have that much effect on the setting as a whole.

Now the game has neither a fantasy setting or cyberpunk, but some generic dystopian future with more final fantasy style sci-fi and magic.

No. The game now has mechanics that work and present a predictable interaction of real world traditions (I ain't touching the tech end) that in reality have little to no "mechanical" (ie how they work) difference between them.

because very quickly 4th edition is having nothing in common with ANY previous edition of Shadowrun other than backstory.

This statement is patently untrue. But then since you by your own statement don't buy the books that means you aren't working with full information, correct?

late 2nd edition (Oh the Horrors and IEs)

Late second was fun for a while, but it got old.

I'm not a big fan of house rules or self-made setting changes.

Then the answer to your problem is simple - tough it out and run with it, or find another game (like continuing running with 3rd as some do). In either case, there is no point whatsoever in complaining about the changes to the game if you are unwilling to put in even the minimal work required to customize it to your preferences. Not saying you can't complain, just don't expect me to take it seriously when you do.

And because of that, they don't sue magic but "resonance" and are absolutly overpowered?

Resonance = magic. Netcat's story in the back of RC made that painfully and sadly obvious.

[hermit]

Otaku have been a part of SR before any of that crap hit the box office and the main difference between them and TMs is that you don't have to strain your suspension of disbelieve to make a 12 year old run the shadows and that you get an explanation for why they can influence the matrix with their brain alone.
So, i don't quite get your constant Neo remarks.
Another problem with one of your players?

Nope, with the technomancer powers in unwired and the BBB. And Otaku were RARE. In some 18 years of on-and-off playing SR, I got to know of exactly two otaku players. Technomancers, however, aren't Otaku. They're not a rarity, they're not nearly haldleable by anything but other technos, rules-wise, they're vastly overpowered and, to top it off, they're not like the Otaku of old, but a corny Neo rip-off.

Accomplishing what precisely? You can't make players do anything - at least not without tons of whining later.

Insight. But if they won't go there, they won't, that's right.

Hardly! The x-box game isn't even SR just a FPS with the SR logo slapped on it. Pulling the princes out (IF they are really out) is only on that scale in your opinion. Kicking out the princes simply does not have that much effect on the setting as a whole.

Because neither did the october revolution have much of an effect on Russia, nor did the French revolution have much of an effect on France. Or disposing of the communist elite in, say, Poland, on Poland.

Changing the entire system of government tends to effect everything in a country.

Resonance = magic. Netcat's story in the back of RC made that painfully and sadly obvious.

Netcat's propably my least favourite official NPC ever. Also, if it's supposed to be magic, why not use the magic attribute?

[NightmareX]

Because neither did the october revolution have much of an effect on Russia, nor did the French revolution have much of an effect on France. Or disposing of the communist elite in, say, Poland, on Poland.

Changing the entire system of government tends to effect everything in a country.

I was talking about the world, not the country when I said "setting".

Netcat's propably my least favourite official NPC ever. Also, if it's supposed to be magic, why not use the magic attribute?

Dunno, likely to give it some mystery and at least the pretense of not being magic for those who hate the idea of magic in the Matrix. I'm just saying that the fiction removes all doubt in my mind that it's magic - it reads exactly like an astral quest (and yes, I know the mechanics are the same - I was hoping however that the fluff would be significantly different in some way).

[hermit]

I was talking about the world, not the country when I said "setting".

Ah, took it as the specific Tir setting.

Dunno, likely to give it some mystery and at least the pretense of not being magic for those who hate the idea of magic in the Matrix. I'm just saying that the fiction removes all doubt in my mind that it's magic - it reads exactly like an astral quest (and yes, I know the mechanics are the same - I was hoping however that the fluff would be significantly different in some way).

Only that Technos now can netherwalk by default, if only in their "world". I consider this vastly overpowered - there's simply no way to keep a computer technoproof.

The Fluff isn't different. And here's another problem with 4th, if you ask me: it doesn't seem to know where it's heading. They rewrite and retcon the setting more than has been in the last 19 years put together, but it doesn't seem to have a direction. First, the arc gets switched back and forth from public to secret knowledge, then technos, first a funky but accepted novelty in the world, get a shitload of hate piled upon them, which then dissipades for mysterious reasons. Also, first, technos are versatile but not overly overpowered, now they're gods of the matrix, but everyone keeps talking about balancing them up against hackers. Finally, all of a sudden, the infected get civil rights, after the setting has well established noone wants them to, because everyone likes to shoot them dead. And all the while, established parts of the setting are razed and distroted because someone seems to have cool ideas on this or some, and it just fits less and less with one another.

I don't know, maybe the devs don't communicate much at all, but this doesn't look good.

[Angier]

Methinks the one who lost focus is you. First, you have to respect the narrative level, which switches between the different supplements from being focused on seattle as the core setting, onwards to a more global scale back on micros. The ARC-Incident was big time for Seattle and the UCAS but not that important globally. So if it is public knowledge what happened in the Arc that means that Seattlers are in touch with the issue not necessary that the neo-tokyoan wageslave knows of it that intimately and jumps on the Raku ad-train who delivers the smartest, cheapest drones ever to your home. Same for the inficted. Okay, they are granted limited civil rights. That doesn't save them from being gangraped by a pile of self proclaimed Van Helsings and monster slayers. Heck, even the SecCorps in the area will persecute them if none watches.

Then Matrix and Technomancers. I know you are not fond of the idea that something could be more intimiatly powerfull than a mundane hacker in matrix related terms but that doesn't mean your perspective is the right one to follow. Mancers are the new players emerging on the battlefield and it is yet to determine how great their inpact will be storywise. They, too, suffer from mistrust and persecution just as the fluff in Unwired shows.

So what I try to communicate is that you should try to loosen your grip on the text itself and try to understand the metagaming level on which the story is based in order to widen your approach to the game.

[CanRay]

After all, it's not about the rules, it's about the storyline!

...

Hey, is Elfy Disneyland licensed? Or do I have to smuggle in my own hooch?

[hermit]

The ARC-Incident was big time for Seattle and the UCAS but not that important globally. So if it is public knowledge what happened in the Arc that means that Seattlers are in touch with the issue not necessary that the neo-tokyoan wageslave knows of it that intimately and jumps on the Raku ad-train who delivers the smartest, cheapest drones ever to your home.

That might be Emergence's stance, yes. Arsenal and the BBB say differently. Read the entry on the manservant, the BBB timeline, and the entry on the centipede. Plus, read the "global audience" part of the Matrix for Dummies chapter in unwired and then say again people are supposed to think strictly locally, because that states the exact opposite. It'S just a mess of retconned retcons. Bad writing, in other words.

I know you are not fond of the idea that something could be more intimiatly powerfull than a mundane hacker in matrix related terms but that doesn't mean your perspective is the right one to follow. Mancers are the new players emerging on the battlefield and it is yet to determine how great their inpact will be storywise. They, too, suffer from mistrust and persecution just as the fluff in Unwired shows.

Uh, right, some corps might want to snatch them, still, despite the public loving them. Take Horizon as a group contact and they will media blitz you out of any trouble, though. Problem solved.

And yes, I strongly dislike how insanely powerful Technos have become, but that's more of a crunch matter. Fluffwise, they don't fit with the setting, they've been imposed onto it in a very clumsy style, and they're just being written up to godlikeness because CGL lets frustrated otaku players like Ultraviolet do the writing. But that's a topic for another discussion (one we already had repeatedly).

So what I try to communicate is that you should try to loosen your grip on the text itself and try to understand the metagaming level on which the story is based in order to widen your approach to the game.

No offense, but this isn't oWoD, and having to do that sucked in the oWoD to begin with. SR used to be less crappy than that.

[Not of this Worl...]

You're completely right here. However, that still doesn't change player perceptions one iota (I know, I've tried).

Maybe your players, my SR3 players are all the same (by the way out of all my SR3 players only one has made the switch to 4th edition, and he still prefers 3rd but I'm not his GM anymore).

Hardly! The x-box game isn't even SR just a FPS with the SR logo slapped on it. Pulling the princes out (IF they are really out) is only on that scale in your opinion. Kicking out the princes simply does not have that much effect on the setting as a whole.

Wow, you really proved me wrong there. Other than the timeline, there isn't a lot of continuity from SR3 that they both share. But feel free to list the many ways SR4 is more Shadowrun than the X-box game.

No. The game now has mechanics that work and present a predictable interaction of real world traditions (I ain't touching the tech end) that in reality have little to no "mechanical" (ie how they work) difference between them.

Whatever, you won't even touch the tech end so... the magic end is more "real world"?

Then the answer to your problem is simple - tough it out and run with it, or find another game (like continuing running with 3rd as some do). In either case, there is no point whatsoever in complaining about the changes to the game if you are unwilling to put in even the minimal work required to customize it to your preferences. Not saying you can't complain, just don't expect me to take it seriously when you do.

Sure there is, without good feedback to work from that can't figure how to fix Shadowrun going forward. I'm still a loyal fan of the setting from 1st edition, and remain an eager potential customer but I don't believe in rewarding CGL or Wizkids for producing what I consider a bad product I don't enjoy. But if you think there is truly no point to arguging, why are you wasting your own time complaining about my complaints? Your actions indicate you either do believe there is a point you're not being honest about or you're just trolling.

Resonance = magic. Netcat's story in the back of RC made that painfully and sadly obvious.

4th edition Runner's companion you mean? Exactly our point about 4th edition and "matrix technomagic". It is said that the matrix system is devolving to just another magic system. I prefer two magic systems but they should be hermetic/logical and shamanistic/emotional.

But for all of you who think the old Tir setting is so bad and disliked, why are both the two Tir books among the best selling Shadowrun sourcebooks of all time? Tir Na Nog is not only one of the few 2nd edition books still available on battlecorp, but one of the higher priced ones as well.

[Rasumichin]

But for all of you who think the old Tir setting is so bad and disliked, why are both the two Tir books among the best selling Shadowrun sourcebooks of all time? Tir Na Nog is not only one of the few 2nd edition books still available on battlecorp, but one of the higher priced ones as well.

I don't think that the old Tir settings are disliked.
In fact, i always liked TnO.
TT on the other hand...i wouldn't say it's bad...it's just terribly bland.
TnO really managed to get that feeling of mystery and reaching back to Celtic traditions and also the sense of opression and despair in the face of a snobbish elite that should acompany an elven banana republic.


TT on the other hand claimed to be that place founded by that ancient elven conspiracy, but there was nothing ancient about it moodwise.

Shure, it had all those ED/IE references so all the people who knew about the continuity could get that soft, warm glow inside.
But besides that?
The whole description seemed sterile, there was a sense of syntheticity about the whole place.
It was a place run by elites thousands of years old, but in fact, it had the feel of a dictatorship set up by a bunch of yuppie elf posers.
All that seemed fantastic and ancient about TT was the fact that some ED NPCs made cameo appearances.
It just didn't work.

It had nothing comparable to path magic and the accompanying belief system, it did not make you wonder what the founders of that nation where really up to, nor did it provide a description of the country itself that was anywhere nearly as vibrant as that found in TnO.
It just gave a bunch of easily trackable references (easily trackable for the players- completely unnoticeable for the PCs) instead of making you wonder what was really going on, let alone create an impression that a state like this could have been built only by people who had lived in the 4th world.

It lacked to make internal conflicts within the setting tangible, whereas in TnO, everything that went wrong there jumped right into your face and also showed the tension running through TnO society by providing a believable opposition, be it on the streets of Belfast or in the Unseelie Court.

TnO created the image of a state struck with terror, racial bigottry and eco-fascism, providing a believable elven dictatorship.
After reading TnO, i had an idea of what life in former Ireland was like and why it sucked for anyone who was not part of the ruling class.

TT paled in comparison to that, it did absolutely nothing but saying "look, there's our pet NSC and they've set up that state that's like, uhm, really, really bad to everyone who's not an elf, okay? Neat, isn't it? Look, those IEs freak out when they see roses, do you get the reference? Funny, huh? Do you nfeel rewarded for buying ED now?".

[Not of this Worl...]

I don't think that the old Tir settings are disliked.
In fact, i always liked TnO.
TT on the other hand...i wouldn't say it's bad...it's just terribly bland.
TnO really managed to get that feeling of mystery and reaching back to Celtic traditions and also the sense of opression and despair in the face of a snobbish elite that should acompany an elven banana republic.


TT on the other hand claimed to be that place founded by that ancient elven conspiracy, but there was nothing ancient about it moodwise.

Well I agreed with most of your points, particularly about some of the downsides to the TT book but I think I would give it a higher overall rating than you did. I did find it to have a lot of history implied, though I wasn't in favor of playing up ED background so much and not playing up the mythology/folklore background.

Regardless I'm disturbed that from the points you brought up CGL appears to be taking the Tir in the other direction and not towards the direction of making it a more richly detailed elven state with a deep background.

I preferred TT to TnO largely because of the leader profiles. I had a better sense of who the Runners might be working for in TT rather than just a generic cause they were working on behalf of. When I did Tir missions my players were interested in a run for a Johnson and not for going on crusades of their own.

[NightmareX]

That might be Emergence's stance, yes. Arsenal and the BBB say differently. Read the entry on the manservant, the BBB timeline, and the entry on the centipede. Plus, read the "global audience" part of the Matrix for Dummies chapter in unwired and then say again people are supposed to think strictly locally, because that states the exact opposite. It'S just a mess of retconned retcons. Bad writing, in other words.

What amount of those references were in character?

Wow, you really proved me wrong there. Other than the timeline, there isn't a lot of continuity from SR3 that they both share. But feel free to list the many ways SR4 is more Shadowrun than the X-box game.

No thanks. It obviously wouldn't make one iota of difference.

Whatever, you won't even touch the tech end so... the magic end is more "real world"?

Go with what you know. *shrug* It's more reminiscent in terms of mechanics to the basic concepts of real world traditions, regardless of the actual validity (which is highly debatable) of said traditions.

I'm still a loyal fan of the setting from 1st edition, and remain an eager potential customer but I don't believe in rewarding CGL or Wizkids for producing what I consider a bad product I don't enjoy.

If SR4 doesn't sell, do you really think anyone will want to continue producing the IP in today's market? That is the entirety of my point at it's most basic level.

But if you think there is truly no point to arguging, why are you wasting your own time complaining about my complaints? Your actions indicate you either do believe there is a point you're not being honest about or you're just trolling.

I used to believe that people could be made to see reason if it was presented to them clearly enough. I'm still in the process of learning that that sentiment is not true, regardless of what the topic of discussion is. So yes, I am not being honest - with myself.

4th edition Runner's companion you mean?

Yes.

But for all of you who think the old Tir setting is so bad and disliked, why are both the two Tir books among the best selling Shadowrun sourcebooks of all time? Tir Na Nog is not only one of the few 2nd edition books still available on battlecorp, but one of the higher priced ones as well.

People like to learn secrets.

[hermit]

What amount of those references were in character?

They weren't shadowtalk at all. They were word-of-god, game information style, out of character setting descriptions.

I don't think that the old Tir settings are disliked.
In fact, i always liked TnO.
TT on the other hand...i wouldn't say it's bad...it's just terribly bland.
TnO really managed to get that feeling of mystery and reaching back to Celtic traditions and also the sense of opression and despair in the face of a snobbish elite that should acompany an elven banana republic.

Granted, we haven't rad much about how TnO is going to be 'excitingly redeveloped' at all as of yet. And yes, TnN always was the better developed and written setting (sorry Nigel). However, TT had one very important advantage: you could play in it outside of a special campaign with IE or IE antagonist backing. Seriously, even getting into the Tir, let alone getting equipment there (which all characters save for mages and technomancers live and die by) is pretty much impossible, let alone operate there without an extensive elfy guanxi network.

TnN is great for character backgrounds. My two favourite characters are from there. TnN also is fun for special runs - but it's not a setting where you can send your average runners just like that, like many other settings are.

Tir Taingire was a compromise. Not quite as closed as TnN For one, you have a chance to evade Ghosts. They're some 3000 soldiers and have to guard some 3000 kilometers of border. They cannot be everywhere at once. Also, it's not as complicated as TnN with it's Danaan families, proxy democracy, and various factions from the Unseelie to the Ulster terrorists - you had elfy fascists, suppressed underclass nonelves, the rinelles, and the IE, which made for a much more approachable setting. For all purposes, TT was TnN lite.

Now, with TT gone, either TnN becomes a more lite version of elfy fascism, or it will be razed too and governed by cool stuff - HMHVV infected cetaur drakes or somesuch. I don't know. I just don't have high expectations anymore.

[NightmareX]

They weren't shadowtalk at all. They were word-of-god, game information style, out of character setting descriptions.

That's not what I mean. Were they in the game information sections, or in the general information sections (which are written from an in character pov)?

[hermit]

That's not what I mean. Were they in the game information sections, or in the general information sections (which are written from an in character pov)?

Game info. There was some stuff on the arc in in-character writing too, in Emergence, but even there, Game Info stated stuff countrary to the BBB and the drone descriptions (which I take as game info) in Arsenal.

[NightmareX]

Game info. There was some stuff on the arc in in-character writing too, in Emergence, but even there, Game Info stated stuff countrary to the BBB and the drone descriptions (which I take as game info) in Arsenal.

Fair enough.

[Rasumichin]

I preferred TT to TnO largely because of the leader profiles. I had a better sense of who the Runners might be working for in TT rather than just a generic cause they were working on behalf of. When I did Tir missions my players were interested in a run for a Johnson and not for going on crusades of their own.

Good point.
When you go for the whole political intrigue stuff, you have to know the various faction's motivations and SOPs, of course.
As TT provided a group of well-established NSC, it was easier to come up with that.

Problem was, the setting never motivated me to write a run there, let alone a campaign.
It's a pity, as Nigel Findley was indeed capable of writing a continuity-centered sourcebook about an authoritarian regime with 4th world ties that was truly captivating, as Aztlan showed us.


@ Hermit : yes, TnN was one of those settings for large-scale infiltration/undercover campaigns, like Aztlan or TT, but more so.
Unless you played a group of natives or had strong corporate/government backing to get in there, it was suitable only for experienced, well-connected runners with excellent planning.
It was as deadly as Bug City, but in a completely different way.

And i really hope they don't change it in this edition.
Because for a good setting, you need locations that necessitate different approaches towards running, that require a group to adapt to specific local challenges.
Celtic Double Cross did a good job in bringing out the unique local flavour of TnO as well as the strategic implications of running in an authoritarian system instead of a weakened, corrupt nation state without gun control.

Of course, that's not suited for beginners.
But for those, we have Seattle, Hong Kong or Hamburg.
There's a reason why Runner Havens was the first location-centered supplement, as it contains the default settings.

I really hope they're not going to water TnO down to make it more accessible (i'm afraid that's what happened to Bug City), some places should be designated specifically for high-level play.

Well, we'll see how it turns out in Cities of Intrigue or Awakened Haunts, probably.

[hermit]

And i really hope they don't change it in this edition.

So do I, but when have the current authors hesitated to smash old stuff and replace it with crap Horizon media-blitzed into existence?

Of course, that's not suited for beginners.
But for those, we have Seattle, Hong Kong or Hamburg.
There's a reason why Runner Havens was the first location-centered supplement, as it contains the default settings.

I really hope they're not going to water TnO down to make it more accessible (i'm afraid that's what happened to Bug City), some places should be designated specifically for high-level play.

I'm afraid that's what'll happen to the Tir. But meh, I am sulking here. Maybe they will get it right. I just don't believe in the authors.

And since SR4 wants to be "street" again, like SR never was, such a high-level setting won't fit into their portfolio.

[Not of this Worl...]

Good point.
When you go for the whole political intrigue stuff, you have to know the various faction's motivations and SOPs, of course.
As TT provided a group of well-established NSC, it was easier to come up with that.

Problem was, the setting never motivated me to write a run there, let alone a campaign.
It's a pity, as Nigel Findley was indeed capable of writing a continuity-centered sourcebook about an authoritarian regime with 4th world ties that was truly captivating, as Aztlan showed us.

Well it was quite enough to set a run in Portland, other areas I'd agree were very weak on. Being as my Shadowrun group was in Oregon, we had enough local knowledge to do what we needed or wanted. Corporate Punishment had good ways of bringing people in, and I always had it as a GM that of course any official Tir group could easily sneak a group of Runners in for acting anonymously in their own country. TT and TnO should both keep the iron curtains, but I would like to see them have more holes in them that special opposing groups have developed.

And i really hope they don't change it in this edition.
Because for a good setting, you need locations that necessitate different approaches towards running, that require a group to adapt to specific local challenges.

Changing the leader of an Elven nation to an Ork is off to a very, very bad start.

Plus I should point out that even Shadows of North America (and Europe) starting diluting general security in both countries and is trying to turn them into more lawless type environments. Like you I would hope they stay high security but justed have a few easily exploited legal/illegal entries into the country for international runner groups.

Anyways I have little hopes for the setting at this point as it seems most of the intent is to "pave" over established settings and setup them in their own way. The strong character of Native American and Elven Nations is certainly one of the things that will keep me away from GMing 4th edition in perpetuity.

[Rasumichin]

Well it was quite enough to set a run in Portland, other areas I'd agree were very weak on. Being as my Shadowrun group was in Oregon, we had enough local knowledge to do what we needed or wanted. Corporate Punishment had good ways of bringing people in, and I always had it as a GM that of course any official Tir group could easily sneak a group of Runners in for acting anonymously in their own country. TT and TnO should both keep the iron curtains, but I would like to see them have more holes in them that special opposing groups have developed.

Aztlan SB did a very good job as far as that issue was concerned.
With detailed descriptions of various ways to sneak into the country, border guard tactics and so on.
If you want a more low-level group to run there, you can still take your approach and let member of the local powers that be arrange entry.

That's something i would welcome for new writeups of the Tirs.

However, for TnO, i don't see that happening, as i doubt that Dublin or Belfast will get more than one of the quick overviews at the end of either Cities of Intigue or Awakened Haunts (if anything at all).

Plus I should point out that even Shadows of North America (and Europe) starting diluting general security in both countries and is trying to turn them into more lawless type environments.

Collapsed states are an integral part of SR, in fact, have been before the term state failure reached today's salience in political circles.
Don't know if it's going in that direction, though, i missed out on most SR3 material.

What i can imagine is larger scale asymetric warfare in Ulster (and it would be easy to escalate this conflict without straining the readers' imagination in the slightest), but from what i can tell, the changeover in TT just came out of nowhere.
With the current lack of information, i don't know what to make of Zincan, let alone the complete situation in TT.

Personally, i wouldn't have minded a reboot of the whole SR setting in the slightest.
The developers have shunned this, probably because it proved desastrous for White Wolf (don't know about nWoD in the US, but over here, the game is dead, mostly because of sudden continuity porn interruption- them German gamers are a plotwanky bunch).

Still, the need to change established settings is there- if you don't bring about changes for a location that has already had a sourcebook of its own, older gamers will most likely not feel the need to buy it.

The format of SR4s setting SBs could offer a good solution to this problem, as most cities will not get more than a brief update anyway.
In fact, i would have preferred more extended chapters on new locales instead of one more lenghty text about Seattle.