After perusing the Sixth World Wiki and searching these forums pretty hard, I can safely say that I have no idea what Tir Taingire looks like in 2070. I know the Council of Princes was supposed to be overthrown, but I don't have a clear idea of by whom and what its ramifications are.

What happened to the members of the Council of Princes? Who's in charge? What's Tir T. doing militarily and politically? I'm especially interested in its relationship with the California Free State (that's where our game will be set.) What's its relationship to Tir a Nog now? And what corporations and other interested parties have moved in to take advantage of the turmoil?

If you can provide book references, that'd be especially good, since it would suggest which SR4 books I need to pick up -- I only have the core rulebook right now. Thanks!

Check the L.A. section of Corporate Enclaves. The current High Prince is an ork though his name escapes me.

The Ork is'nt his name Larry Zincan? Horizons Charisma Associates branch PR'd him to the moon and back after the Coo.

Begging the more important question what happened to all the princes there paladins,hangers on and what not. Theres mention an orgainization to return elven rule "Black Sun". (A nod to star wars novels?)

Laying low is the idea given out, but were and what is really going on? I just can't imagine after centuries of plotting planning to form the Tir they'd give up so easily or be defeated with the power they have at there disposal. (I'm personally of the opinion there behind alot of North American countries troubles early in the century to destabilize and create a smooth creation of the Tir.)

As much as I love playing around with the ED/SR connections and the whole "ancient elves" concept, in this case I'm looking for present-day information. I'm still not clear on what Tir Taingire's relationship with its political neighbors, Hestaby, Tir a Nog, and various corporations is right now.

Sounds like things are ripe for insurgency.

Wha??? you're kidding me right?

I hope I don't need another new reason to really hate 4th edition.

Well, they fucked up Tir Taingire beyond all reason. Sorry, but it can't be sai in a nicer way. This setting now officially rivals the original Berlin setting in the German Germany SB. That part started out with "We cannot gve any reason why this works, but it does". That's how TT in 4th can be summed up.

Has anyone else considered that the ork in charge of the TT might be a puppet of the old regime? Every time I see someone mention it, that's what leaps to mind for me anyway.

-paws

No. He is Horizon's puppet, who media blitzed him to power. "Media Blitz" must be one hell of a powerful Shape Reality spell.

Still feels like there's something else to it. You know, behind the scenes. That's just me , I guess.

*Closing eyes, holding fingers to brow and furrowing* I'm predicting... Portland/Tir Tairngirie to be covered in Cities of Intrigue... or perhaps a campaign plot book for 2009 or 2010 centered around the Tir princes... or perhaps some other project. Whew, fortune telling is hard. Always in motion, the future is.

I really doubt a location of major importance like TT will be left blowing in the wind for all eternity.

You pulled all that from a couple of sentences in Corporate Enclaves? Wow, impressive.

Well, yes, of course. But that's what campaigns are for, I suppose. Also that way I don't have to make a guess - I can let my DM come up with that story.

(For the record, I'm not fond of the idea either - I liked the idea of an overt autocracy in amidst the other plutocracy's of North America. But that's just me.)

But no comments on Tir Taingire's international / corporate political relations? I'm trying to come up with some character concepts and contacts, so I was hoping for at least a few notes to work on.

There honestly hasn't been enough information published to make any reliable guesses at the moment. It's still all up in the air. Sorry dude! All we've got is conjecture.

So they eliminated Lugh Surehand how? I don't see him stepping down and I don't think much short of Dunkelzahn (if even) could kill him. Besides, all the 1st edition links to mythology and folklore were awesome plot twisters. It always worked much better than 2nd editions ED references.

Oh well, yet one more reason not to waste my money on 4th edition books.

If anything the setting of TT could have benefited from being even more uniquely elven with even more intrigue.

Everyone is kissing up Horizon's ass because they've been media blitzed. And they love the taste of Horizon shit, to boot. Media Blitz, you know.


Nah, it definitly lacked AIs and technomancers and other k3wl new stuff 4th brought up. Nothing says "elf autocracy" like an AI with a fluffy icon that developed out of a virtual pet, or a norm with half-asian features named Neo. Screw unique settings! This is 4th, baby. No more unique elven stuff here.


There's also the BBB, Unwired and Runner Havens. Besides, what was written there was sufficient to understand how badly they fucked up the setting.

Elven Autocracy? Tir na nOg.

Let's face it. None of us knows what's in for Tairngire. Especially since Lonsingshian times have passed (bless the gods!). So... hold your fruitless rants untill it gets fully covered in a supplement by someone who understands gameworld mechanics and dramaturgical tools.

But ranting is half the fun!

Yeah. But less fun as the topic is so poorly covered

But what we know reads 'unsalvagable'. Really, with that crap they have established, this setting is gonna be another stupid joke like LA, unhless CGL retcons their own stuff again.

While it is annoying that the only info we have are a couple blurbs in Runner's Havens and Corporate Enclaves, I for one am glad the old Council has stepped down from overt power (I can't realistically see it as anything other than a voluntary - albeit highly calculated - move). The Tir was always an essential improbable (not impossible though) place to run, and that amounted to alot of wasted setting space/flavor IMO. In other words, everyone was fine being from the Tir, but no one wanted to run in the Tir. But then you'll have that when virtual gods run the place. Making their control (yes, IMO they are still likely in control somehow) covert rather than overt is a good move, but we need more info (hint hint developers )

Where, exactly, is LA a place you can run in with less attention to stealth, cover from above and care to being detected than the Tir of old, huh? And since the Tir is Orange County II it's propably a dumbass clone of the LA setting, with an elfy theme.

I have yet to read the LA section, as it wasn't in demand in my group. However, El Infeirno or the underwater areas cross my mind immediately.

The only way to run in LA is to hook up with P2.0, which essentially means you post your runs in your online live feed or viewer consumption. Noone in LA will take younserious as a runner if you don't do the Pita. Also, LA is a surveillance society that makes britain look like an Anarchist's paradise. The underground caves are full of horrors and worse things, and El Infierno has sunk into the ocean.

Heh, sounds like Manhattan.

Pretty much, only cornier (Pita is basically a runner facebook community). So what's the greatness in turning the Tir - a much less ridiculous high-security, high surveillance state, into elfy Disneyland?

P2.0 Horizon Talking Head: "You just broke into the Renraku Arcology and stole the Maguffin! What are you doing to do now?"

Overly Famous Shadowrunner: "I'm going to Elfy Disneyland!!!"

We don't know that's it's elfy Disneyland. We don't know much about it at all. Only that the Princes are no longer in power. The greatness of that is that it takes the Tir from the private playground of virtual gods and puts it down into the rest of the world. Runners can deal with high-security and high surveillance - it's their job after all. They cannot deal successfully with an IE who happens to take interest in whatever they are doing. Not saying that every run in the previous Tir would attract IE attention - indeed only a minuscule portion would - but it is the perception that such is a possibility however small simply due to location is what in my experience keeps players from wanting to run in the Tir on a consistent basis. Removing that metagame perception is IMO a good thing.

The 'it might bring down gods' wrath' part was what made the Tir setting unique.

Yeah, it might get you on bad footing with NPC with stats of n+10. So? Same goes for any run against Saeder-Krupp. Same goes for any run against Horizon, for that matter, because they'll media blitz all your contacts and then send their cheery friendly killer squad after you. Actually, should any target of the runners' actions decide they're woth obliterating, runners don't stand much of a chance, whether that's a mega in it's backyard (think Neonet and Boston, or Ares and Detroit, or Japanacorp and Japan), a dragon with the vindictive quality (Lofwyr) or Donna O'Malley in good old Seattle. I don't really see where an IE would be such an incredibly more disproportionate threat to the runners. Odds are the IE'd send kill squads just like everyone else would, anyway.

If your playersd are against running in the Tir for metagaming reasons, you might lay that out to them. If the reason is "I don't like elfy stuff", of course, then they just dislike the setting, but that can happen with any setting, and isn't Tir specific.

What I do see is the Tir losing it's unique features and becoming anopther Horizon-dominated POS setting, like LA. What I don't see is anything about unique, anymore. Like you said, now it's just a country like all else are.

Well Tir aside, i like the Fluff on LA. Sure it is kinda silly but it is different. If i want my players to play in the toxic mud or go in the caves i just fly them over there, but if my players are tired of dark and dreary Seattle (and most other cities aren't that different) they can go to LA where they can feel like rockstars. I wouldn't want to always run campaigns in LA, but it is fun to run it from time to time.

On Tir, i personally hate IEs and i am really tired of ED connections. I don't mind the little ones like "Hey, is X really X from ED" but i rather have a npc cast that is ever changing and relevant to the 6th world. It makes the setting feel like a dangerous place to live and even more to rule being that someone is always trying to replace you. Super strong NPCs are just a pain in the ass and the only way you can really use them in a game is as a cameo. "Oh snap, it was harlequin that gave us a mission, neato." But that is my opinion, everyone likes their stakes different.

What we know:

Fact #1 - The previous Tir Council of Princes has been replaced.
Fact #2 - The current High Prince is an ork with ties to Horizon's PR spin machine.

Everything else is pure conjecture bullshit. It could be the same aristocratic, police state regime or it could be completely different. I'm sorry if the loss of Lugh Surehand and company wrecks a thin link to Earthdawn for some of you but you can blame that on the collapse of FASA and the scattering of their intellectual properties. Saying 4th Ed. sucks because of some (probably) minor setting twists necessary due to copyrights is pretty damn childish. I also seriously doubt that CGL would dilute the uniqueness of the LA setting (opinions on P2.0 aside) by mimicking its quirks in the Tir.

If that were the only problematic to downright stupid addition to the game world, yes, it would be.

I want to go to Elven Disneyland now. *Pouts*

You've uncorked the bottle of my curiosity. What other additions to the game world do you think are stupid?

Pulling the princes out of power seems just as contrived as everything else about 4th edition which is on a crash course to becoming as insipid and stupid as the X-box game.

Most of Tir Tairngire had little to do with the optional setting of Earthdawn and more to do with the 1st edition roots that the world of Shadowrun could be our world and so some of the princes are made up with a smattering of celtic folklore and mythology. The Celtic roots and Native American traditions in Shadowrun are what really grounded the game in Fantasy. Now the game has neither a fantasy setting or cyberpunk, but some generic dystopian future with more final fantasy style sci-fi and magic.

Plus don't tell me Immortal Elves (which I'm not a fan of) are any worse than the way Dragons have now been handled in 4th edition to become unkillable and unstoppable "Deus Ex Machinas".

For all the complaints, it should be noted that the two Tir books were two of FASA's best selling sourcebooks. The initial print runs sold out and they are still 2 of the harder books to get ahold of. Something I know of because my originals were stolen and it took hard work to replace them at a decent cost.

Some advancement is fine, but Catalyst should start fresh with Shadowrun like FASA interactive did with their Shadowrun because very quickly 4th edition is having nothing in common with ANY previous edition of Shadowrun other than backstory. It is an unfortunate demise to a great setting.

I'm sure people will say otherwise, but to me I lump those who do in same category as the people who defended late 2nd edition (Oh the Horrors and IEs), the CCG, and Shadowrun duels settings as great games as well.

Personally, I just play it as the same old Tir. They never were much for sharing information, and who is really in charge was always a matter of conjecture. We always treated them more like old the Soviet Union then anything else. The few runs we did in the Tir wre usually an excuse to force the trigger happy to stop and think for a minute. There are many other places to play, so it never really worried me. And I like the ED links.

And dragons (at least great dragons) were always meant to be unkillable, I think 4th Ed gets that part right. As a runner I wouldn't ever expect to meet one, not and know it for sure.

To make the answer shorter: what additions do you like?

Agreed there for practicality sake. Yes, they should be mortal like Dunkelzahn but a Runner should never have that much power. Same with IEs. But unstoppable and unopposable they shouldn't be, which 4th edition fluff seems to make them out to be. It reminds me too much of the unstoppable Elf Leonardo in 2nd edition who everyone came to loathe.

Besides not just them but younger dragons have been made pretty insane as well, contributing further to the feeling that Dragons in general are just "untouchable".

For all we know, Lugh could be the ork in charge of Tir Taingire. Nothing quells dissension quite like violently overthrowing yourself and then installing yourself as the new ruler. Physical Mask helps.

Ya know, that's the great thing about fluff... You can take it or leave it. If you don't like what they've done with certain elements of the setting then by all means don't use them or change them to how you'll like them. I don't understand the point of whining "they broke the game" when you don't have to buy the books... or follow the setting(incase you like the system)

If you don't like the way they've handled the Tir, make it up yourself.

Yep. Sure, by all means, voice dissatisfaction with where canon is going, but RUN IT HOWEVER YOU WANT.



Hell, my last campaign still had Saito in LA, so forget some glitzy aristocratic Tir reality trid...

I still got Don Bigio handling the mob in Seattle. The Finnigan's are still pissed, and the infighting between the families are the reason the other "Organizations" have been able to make major in-roads in Seattle.

Something just changed that, however.

Like:
Most new cyber and bio, the Hong Kong setting, fusing Transys and Novatech to make Nova viable and Transys more international, less unrealistic basic rules on computing (undecided on the wireless; i find it a bit strangely implemented, though not a bad idea in itself). Also, available Jarhead and biodrone rules, and the Caracas setting.

Dislike:
Technomancers, AIs that are accepted because their icon is fluffy and one AI stopped another from bombarding the earth with bioweapons, Horizon, the LA setting, how the Tir Setting was developed, how parts of the Seattle setting were developed, unbelievable to stupid handling of the arcology massacre (BBB states it's public knowledge, Emergence it's secret, arsenal states it's public and people loathe Raku's household drones because of it and then introduces former arcology drones as best selling items), overt pushing of new ideas (like the above mentioned). Also, to everyone's surprise I'm sure, playable vampires.


I'm not a big fan of house rules or self-made setting changes.

Do they have a Animatronic Uncle Dunkie at Elfy Disneyland?

If by Final Fantasy-style magic you mean that magic is a generally accepted part of the world, then, yes it is. It's been 20 years in-game. Think about how different society is now in comparison to 1988. From a story-telling standpoint it would require an extreme suspension-of-disbelief to have any society maintain a "ooo, magic is spooky" attitude when it's been a part of the cultural landscape for decades. And the fact that there's magic, elves and dragons? That is the definition of a fantasy setting. And virtual reality, artificial intelligence, and criminal hacking adventures? That's cyberpunk. And like has been mentioned many times in this thread, if you don't like the world of 2070s Shadowrun, then set yours back in the 2050s.



Ask yourself this: how special would a dragon be if you could hose it down with a gatling gun and be done with it? They're not unkillable. It's simply very, very hard to kill them. They're not cannon fodder like security guards and ghouls.



All of the FASA-era location sourcebooks are out of date and have been since third edition. They're good for basic location rundowns but, again, it's been 10-15 years since those Shadowland entries were written. I have a large Shadowrun library which I obtained at great cost but I'm not complaining about a few leadership changes to one of the settings. Everything I've seen so far still indicates that the Tirs are still the "Israels" for the metahuman races.



Anything that stays the same forever becomes tired and boring and from a business standpoint, who wants to sell that kind of game? You're making it sound like everything that has been established in continuity by FASA and FanPro has been wiped off the map which is a pretty serious snap judgment and is based very little in fact.

Of the four fully developed settings, I actually like the Hong Kong setting the least as I don't feel it brings anything new to the table and there's an over-reliance on Asian settings in cyberpunk but at the same time, I still liked the write-up on it in Runner Havens.




What's wrong with Technomancers? It seems like a fairly logical progression in science-fiction to have a race of people who can interface with information without the need for machinery.

AI's are a mainstay of cyberpunk. And if a media-company introduces one to the public as "fluffy" then I don't doubt the unwashed masses are going to believe it. What the runner believes is up to the player. Speaking of which, the surface of Horizon has barely been scratched and there has been no published development of the Tir setting other than the two facts we know. The post-Renraku Arcology Shutdown continuity issues seems to be a matter of simple editorial gaffes on Catalyst's part, so I'll agree with you on that one.

What's your beef with the Seattle setting development?

As for PC vampires, that's game mechanics issues, not setting which is all I'm concerned about here.

Hey, if Aztechnology can use spin doctoring to make itself seem like a happy, decent corporation to all the Unwashed Masses, then Horizon could EASILY sell an AI!

Another angle: Everyone needs a vacation from responsibility occasionally - and Orks don´t live forever.

There is because Asian societes radiate a very cyberpunk feel. you've propably see it to believe it, but China feels a lot like a cyberpunk dystopia. Anyway, Shadowrun, before HK, had no developed asian city settings. None. I don't really see an overabundance there, but whether you like the setting or not boils down to a question of taste.


They do? And because of that, they don't sue magic but "resonance" and are absolutly overpowered? Also, I loath the Matrix trilogy, so I don't care much for porting Neo's concept into SR. YMMV.


Especially if the unwashed masses have been massacred by it's AI cousins twice, with another massacre only barely averted, yes. Totally plausible.


For example, an ashen rain plagued part of the Barrens turning into a B zone (Tarislar), retconning parts of the SSC that have been SSC for almost 20 years of SR publication into Seattle, and the handling of the arcology (A low-level housing enclave in the prime business district of an enclave short on room to build stuff but big on business. RIGHT.)


Uhm, of course is a 180 degree turn in treating the infected an important setting issue.


Horizon will make it happen. They employ The One AND Agent Smith.