Dragons can be shot.

I gave my group two dragons that they could shoot if they so wished.

Thing is, you only get one shot, then the dragon get to give a rebuttal that is far more powerful than the "Last Argument Of Kings".

Well, this is true only insofar as it refers to very powerful dragons or very weak greats. A "stock" dragon, insofar as such a thing exists, is generally able to be churned into ground beef by mobile armor or a close support wing. Unique spells and abilities that Greats get aside, a regular dragon basically has what's in the book, some extra karma for spells and spirits, and that's it. You don't want to miss, no, because the Dragon CAN do very serious damage, but I wouldn't say that it's necessarily MORE dangerous that a fast mover with a rack of laser-guided AGMs.

We had that discussion a time ago, search the forum for the thread about Ghostwalker's take of Denver.

Yes, I remember it.

I'm talking about non-greats, though. Just regular old, by the book ordinary dragons. Inasmuch as such a thing exists.

I didn't follow the thread then, but if it's possible to kill a GD, a non-great shouldn't be a problem either. So please, don't discuss it here.

-- I would be surprised if Crater Lake ever has anything explicitely said about it. If you recall, the original TT book had pictures of what appeared to be Borg Cubes floating over it, and there are other mysterious hints placed here and there in SONA and other books for enterprising GMs to develop.
-- I always found mixing in the real world Mt. Shasta myths more interesting myself ...

-- Bit odd to hear that TT has changed so much. The TT section in SONA was, more or less, an attempt to change the rather ... hostile ... environment the area presented to the average shadowrunning group. It also ended up retconning some of the more outrageous elements of the original (which I haven't seen anyone say is a bad thing) and gave a number of "hooks" for a campaign in the area. The damn elves were always a thorn in my side, but I'd hate to see them basically shot, stabbed, and waylaid in SR4. They were a nice counterpoint to the original cute and fuzzy depictions of the NAN for one thing.

(Black Sun had nothing to do with Star Wars btw)
P.S. Rex is an Immortal Sasquatch. Discuss.

Ignore the IE, GD, and overall ED/SR metaplot for a moment.

I think CGL tore down Surehand et al because of continuity.

Wait a second, stay with me here. When I say continuity, I don't mean ensuring that old information meshes at least reasonably well with new information. I meant that the plot, the storyline, the setting itself, all actually continue. They move forward. They advance.

That more than anything is what has always angered me the most about Games Workshop and their games. Don't get me wrong; as a miniatures gamer, I love both the Warhammer franchises, but the storyline never moves forward, not for either of them. No matter how many wars are fought or grand campaigns end in failure for one side or the other, the status quo simply does not change. So when I find a game that actually shakes up that status quo, that pushes forward the timeline, makes changes to political, financial, or even military facts of life for that game world, I find it refreshing.

That's one of things that I like about Shadowrun. I've only been playing since 3rd Edition unlike most of you old hands, but that doesn't mean I'm a dolt when it comes to everything that came before; I actually hunted down hard copies of the original BBB, the Tir Na nOg SB, and Dunkelzahn's Secrets (just to name a few) and I have read as much as I can find about all that came before so I'm up to speed on what has happened throughout the continuity of the story. I say this because it makes it seem more real (note: not realistic, but real. There is a subtle but important distinction, especially considering the magic angle). Governments rise and fall. Corporations fail. Leaders are removed from if they prove unpopular (or die, for whatever reason). This is the inevitable after-effect of Time's continuous and unstoppable march forward. So, as old governments collapse, new governments take their place, as is the case with Tir Tairngire. As old corporations fail (CATCo, for instance), new ones rise to replace them (as Horizon did). Surehand, Laverty, and their cronies stepped out of the spotlight and Zincan was pushed into it.

And here we see the beauty of Change: it opens new doors. Whenever something is in flux, when it is not stagnant, chaos now exists in that system. You can't dive into a block of solid stone, but you can dive into a pool of water -- because water is inherently chaotic in its makeup. It is easy to change its flow and shape, even if that change is temporary. That is part of why I think CGL pushed Tairngire over the edge and changed it: to create a certain amount of chaos in the system. Before, players could run inside the Tir, but if you weren't working for someone in the Tir's power structure, you exponentially increased the chances of getting greased by the Ghosts. Now, the system is in flux. Sure, Zincan's the leader, but is he really in charge? He was Surehand's puppet before, so does that wily elf still have his hand up the ork's ass? Border security for free and democratic nations tends to be less tight than it is for dictatorships -- so is that really the case here? Telestrian Industries is probably going to take some hits now that the AAAs can move in, so there are bound to be lots of runs as the corps go into turf-war-mode. The elven ruling class is so used to being top-dog. . . . do you really think that ALL of them will step down and make way for new management without a fight?

And I mention all these possibilities because they all sound like plausible runs. And Tairngire makes the best choice for this great change in the game world because it is so damn close to Seattle, the runner capital of the world, thus making all these new doors for players to open without needing to venture to some out-of-the-way place (speaking as an American here, sorry guys) like the TNO or Russia. It's right next door to Seattle, inarguably the main setting and where a good sixty percent or better of Shadowrun games take place.

Now some of you have been shitting all over this decision to tear down TT as we know it. By all means, express your opinion. But then remember what I said above: the world of Shadowrun has been written to be a reflection of the real world -- a real world where (gasp!) things change. Times change. People, nations, and corporations rise and fall, but not all of these occurrances are things we actually like. As an American soldier, am I actually *happy* to have devoted two years of my life to the nation of Iraq? Nope. I'd rather have hung around Colorado Springs and drank heavily while playing Warhammer and Shadowrun. Not all changes are agreeable, but that's just how the world works.

And now, to step outside of my philosophy class: You can argue that the changes made to SR4's timeline suck. Good for you, I'm glad you have an opinion (no, that is not meant to be tongue-in-cheek; free thinkers make the world go 'round). But then I can argue that, unlike the Real World, if you don't like the Sixth World. . . . you don't have to play there. And that, gentlemen, is simply *my* opinion.

I preferred it the way Findley wrote it and think it didn't need any retconning on clearing up.

God forbid there be a location where it's hard for runners to operate like jackasses with impunity.

In the case of Tir Tairngire I can see a complaint that the changes are excessive ("lets make it more gamable ... by blowing it up!") and too fast ("I never had a chance to run a campaign in it!"). That's a pretty common issue with SR over each edition though - entire regions barely gets a sentence or two of description before its overtaken by events in a later supplement (often in shadowtalk).

Now, I'll be honest, I was never a TT fanboy by ANY measure. I didn't hate it or anything, but the entire setup just struck me as a bit outrageous and a heavy-handed allusion to Earthdawn at times. But it was a unique area set close to the "archetypical" Shadowrun setting of Seattle and was rather different then either Tsimshian or Salish-Shidhe, and had an interesting influence on the CFS setting (now talk about a criminally underutilized region ....).

That said, TT doesn't seem to have been blown up or anything, its just recovering from political turmoil that (as a writer) seems designed to do two things:
1. Maintain a sense of continuity from 3e by extrapolating the "civil war" with Rinelle and make a break with the old at the same time by erasing many of the overt Earthdawnisms.
2. The most common complaint about TT was (paraphrasing) that it was an elven prison camp and shadowrunning was hard and most mixed-race player groups were basically hamstrung in their operations. I imagine it's even worse for TnO but who cares about that place The change to a multipolar democrat society makes it far easier to justify running around in the country without getting nailed by the Peace Force or the GM running through hoops justifying why these players are so special that they are dealing with people who are, at heart, racist snobs.

My personal opinion is that I wish the NW area had its own sourcebook and effort was made to focus on far fewer "action zones" instead of the piecemeal worldwide approach that has huge information turnover. This would work even better now that we're down to what, three power brokers in the area? Salish-Shidhe, UCAS Seattle, and Tir Tairngire - with a lot going on in each of them.

Tastes are subjective views, it don't necessarly means 'truth'.

The opposite is also true; God forbid there be a location who is designed to screw players in a gygaxian dm-Adversary sense.

And the one time it makes a semblance of doing so in 40K, we get dumb shit like the Necrons (artistically cool, bogus fluff, boring army list) and the Tau (anime-inspired grey aliens that fit the rest of the universe like an Excruciator up the posterior).

But I digress...

Wait, there are people that actually liked the Tir nations? Everyone I've seen (in person) hates them, a few of them went so far as to retcon them out. Reasons for hating them ranged from "annoying racists with bad fluff" to "their social structure couldn't work" to "I don't want a bunch of fucking gods in the setting". The latter I might mention didn't like great dragons either, can't say I disagree with them, gods or entities that manage to be extremely powerful on their own (as in, not by running a megacorporation from which they can still die to a sniper) just make everything else less significant.

Yeah, but there has to be more than one villain. Otherwise, runs start feeling like Scooby Doo -- it's always the creepy old guy in a mask (aka megacorps). Just once, don't you think the gang wanted to fight actual ghosts?

No shortage of villains: Gangs, policlubs, eco-terrorists, racist terrorists, bug spirits, ghouls, mafia, yakuza, seoulpa rings, pirates, triads, vampire circles, serial killers, shadow spirits, shedim, grande zombies, other runners... the lsit goes on.

Yeah, but did they ever run against those IEs? Because hating them in principal is retarded and has zero relevance to the usability of the setting.

And some of us like the fact that there was racism in SR. The opposite is just fantasy bullshit.

I'll be honest, my perspective on TT was never even conscious of the ED stuff. It was that TT was Israel with magic.

Lets go a bit deeper: hate against the Tirs, or hate against the Tirs being in the game?

Certainly both Tirs are no Utopia.

Unless, of course, you are an elf with a Celtic-sounding name. Then it's the next best thing to Heaven.

I never had a problem with the Tirs, it was their beef. I do however hate the concept of Immortal Elves. It doesn't matter if anyone runs against them, the fact is, they're the same as the "unkillable NPCs" in Oblivion, except, their presence isn't actually required for the plot, they're just there as literary masturbation.

Shrug. I don't see Immortal Elves being any less killable than Damien Knight or any other prominent personage.

Slight difference, when you shoot Damien Knight (assuming you don't get a look a like, which you can research to avoid), he dies. When you shoot an IE, they warp the universe to turn you to ash.

Got anything akin to canon evidence to back that up? Or is that just your personal opinion?

Read the thread. If you ask the IE fanboys, the immortal elves are completely unable to be defeated short of a great dragon.

That's all fine and dandy, but I did specify canon evidence.

I htink the old TT was that way, the super secret place you couldn't get into with scary guards on the borders etc, then the TT source book came out that gave more details of still a pretty well non-relaisticx palce with rites etc.

It got more realistic as the system started to seriously break down with unquiet and unemployment and people unhappy with the situation I mean how many 'princes' and 'Dukes' etc can you have in a nation only a little bigger than the state of Oregon?

From a RL look this might be the line producers trying to fix the nonsense. From a game point of view maybe the Princes who were IE withdrew their 'blesings' on TT when they saw how far from 'true' the latest generatino of elves had taken it. Like "these guys have so fraked the pooch we are going to have to start all over again."

Then in that case, no, I have none. I just have zero interest in a group of gods in a setting like Shadowrun.

That's my point. In what way are they any more 'Gods' than a person like Damien Knight?

Simple: they are actually powerful. Damien Knight is only powerful as far as the loyalty of his employees/contacts extends, he is still just a human. He can still slip in the shower and crack his head on the floor, a particularly determined nutjob with a streetline special does still have a chance (not much of one, but a chance) to end him, and he will still eventually die of old age.

I don't see the difference. One supposedly may have personal power, but the other can call on pretty much unlimited powerful resources.



So can an Immortal Elf.



And the same is true for an Immortal Elf.



True enough (but it may take a while with the use of the available age-hindering tech), unless he has a Spirit Pact or some such that grants him immunity.

The Immortal Elves haven't been a central element of Tir Tairngire for quite a long time (as presented in the supplements), and most of direct references are only made in the novels (cue mysterious music as to the Lofywr/Oakforest backstory as hinted at in SONA!). I'm certainly sympathetic to IE bashing, but I'm not convinced that Tir Tairngire can be singled out because of their meddling. And small doses of them, I feel, can add an element of mystery and duplicity a bit more nuanced then the rather tired "darn dragons and their rascally plans!"

I'm going to have to turn in my IE Haters Membership Card (some old-timers may be surprised here) but Ehran the Scribe I feel is one of the most interesting and unappreciated characters in Shadowrun canon. It's a real pity some of his glorious deeds and plans may never be seen in print. Yes, he's an immortal superelf from the Land Before Time and wrestled dinosaurs one handed while seducing maidens and researching fireball spells, but darn it he's cool

(BTW I found the "hah-hah-wink wink wink nudge" stuff in Aztlan far more annoying then anything in the original Tir Tairngire book (the shout-outs to the Blood Elves aside).)

Can you give us an example or three?

Not really, I'm afraid :/ (I'll note I'm being a bit facetious in my depiction of his actions, Ehran has always been very much a behind-the-scenes character even in the fiction. I just happen to have taken a shine to him after SONA).

BTW I'm collecting notes of all the updates to the Salish-Shidhe and Tir Tairngire area (surprisingly short list, hah), and I see the wiki makes mention of special forces being used to hunt for Surehand. Is this in a novel or one of the sourcebooks? I've searched through all the SR4 books I have and don't see anything about this. The wiki has almost noexistent attribution so it's hard to figure out what's guesswork and what's canon sourcebook material.

For reference, the wiki link:
http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php/Tir_Ta...ire_Peace_Force

Edit: I see the unpublished "Hidden Agenda" novel by Mike Mulvihill has been mentioned by Synner so it's probably safe to note that this is where a lot of the major political changes to Tir Tairngire were sourced from (wasn't trying to be intentionally obtuse, but it's been a while and a lot of stuff is still under NDA). Rinelle and the economic source of the instability/aftershocks of Hestaby replacing Lofwyr was not part of the novel so I'll take the heat on the complaints it seemed to spring from nowhere. I thought it made logical sense given the conditions noted in Tir Tairngire and shadowtalk blurbs up till SONA. I'm sure there were competing submissions for that section, and who knows - maybe someone will chime in with what their personal vision was for the Tir. (looks around suspiciously)

You're a troll fanboy, aren't you?

That beeing said, it really went onto another subject here. I'm not here for that long, but the Love/Hate IE threads seems this common that you can't even write "elf" without having immortal added to it.


More amazing is that Catalyst said they would tone down their importance in SR4 setting and make a better mix of everything.


May someone tell me why their still complains about previous editions writtings? Doesn't it sound retarded?

If there are complaints that the older edition writings about the Tirs were better, then it makes sense that complaints about the older edition writings follow.

There were some ten thousand land-owning nobles in Germany, which only is a bit larger than Oregon. The same can be said about England, or pre-revolution France. If you apply those titles according to that pseudofeudal society in the TT book to everyone in the upper ranks of society? Again taking today's Germany as an example (with a lot larger general population than the Tir), we're talking of about ten million.


Uhm, sorry, no. I donm't recall the Tir book ever claiming something as ridiculous as "this city is a mess of warring tribes and gangs, and because everyone consistently blows everyone else up, utilities work, there's energy, and corp investment skyrockets as every corp builds arcologies in this mess because here, they can dump their frak genetic lovecraftian horrors not far away where they'll only eat some stupid natives, but at their doorstep where it's a short-distance crawl to return to and eat the lab they were made in."

Also, despite the Berlin wall, everyone could easily take the friggin' monorail train to get in and out of that city, because apparently, hoodlums and terrorists are completely unable to use trains and can safely be contained with a 2 meters high wall.

The GSB authors loved walls, anyway. They had another built around the nuke zone around Luxembourg to contain the radiation (5 meters high, 3 meters wide. It's kinda obvious these guys were primarily writers for a fantasy system).

The new Tir, with it's three-way guerilla warfare, and at the same time skyrocketing investment, working state, and all that thanks to Horizon's Media Blitz spells, comes frighteningly cloose.

My personal stance on the Immortal Elves is that I don't mind their existence. However, I like their more recent portrayals - the fact that they can get blindsided by rapid modern developments makes them a lot more interesting.

They will still be around, and certainly will plan how to regain their power. But they had to face the fact that the world won't stand still because of them. Their loss of control over Tir Taingire served as a very rude awakening here...



Where were those 4E stats again?

Actually, should Alachia still be in some sort of power (speaker of the chamber?), the ousting of the Sereatha bunch WOULD make some sense - the mad queen wins, again, and all.

Why this question didn't lead to the usual "IEs are Gods! Gooooooooodddddds!"-complaint, including the mourning about having no stats for IEs, is still a mystery to me.

And kudos to hermit for coming up with the ADL-comparions in nearly every thread.

It's because those who complain about IEs being gods readily agree that they should not be gods.

But without stats they can't be killed!

There won't be any complaints from those who dislike IEs if the GM doesn't give them any stats, but lets them die by slipping in the shower and breaking their neck.

Hey, I did keep it out of the gear threads.


Just kick them out of your game, then.

about Tir, yes. But IE are too powerfull, mary sue and the like... That doesn't addanything to the debate...

If IEs are an important part of the Tirs and their presence or absence changes the region, then yes, it adds to the debate - especially if their presence or absence is what keeps people from playing in the Tirs.

And Grinder, please, leave there irony there. I'd rather see a discussion about Tir's development/choices/past choices than about IE. Don't you think? Of course there's a link. But do not focus on their mightyness and likelyness of it.

Tell me exactely what IT referres to?


Point 1: There's definitely a wide range of feelings about IE, from people liking those metaplots to those hating them, to those finding them ok but with a few changes. However, for whatever reason, you do think that you represent the vast majority.

Point 2: Keep people playing from Tirs? So, if I sumarize, because the power in place are IE, you can't play there. Replace Lugh Surehand by Jonathan Mandolin, Ehran by Tony the Writer and Tir gets more appealing? What can prevent one from playing into the old Tir is the difficulties of running there. Not power that controls the land.

Point 3: What is IT? The debate (from every last threads I've seen on the subject) went to: "they are unkilable, it's unfun, they can't control every plot" ...and so on... . With the nice share of "They have nothing to do in SR" "Yes they have, they are there since SR1 blah blah". This was debated to death. If IT referes to the ability IE have to maintain the grasp over their power, if it's realistic or not, on which part of control they are forced to give up on corps, and so on, I say, yes, it adds to the debate.


But I do not need to quote most of the last "IE fanboyz" posts, or do I have to?

The debate about IEs you mentioned as not adding to the debate.



Huh? Where do I state that? I don't, hence my wording "their presence (for those who dislike them) or absence (for fans) may keep people from playing in the Tirs".



What may keep you from playing in the Tirs doesn't keep others from it, and vice versa. For some, replacing the IEs with non-IEs might - and did in SR4's case - Tir Tairngire more palatable.
Personally, I never really found the place appealing because it was so racist and over the top, and the one GM we had who was a fan of the place ended up miffed because my group at the time tended to shoot their way through all the paladins and guards and whatever else. And a miffed GM makes for a bad adventure.



All of the above. The debate covering the question whether or not the new Tir is better suited for the game can and should take all aspects that people bring up into account. And the ability of the IEs to maintain control is tied into their powerlevel.



I can't keep you from it, nor do I want to. All I am saying is that the Tir is, for better or worse, tied to IEs in the minds of many, and how they perceive the IEs has a big impact on how they view the Tir.

Quick interjection:
1) Please keep the chatter about the IEs and their interaction with the game to a minimum. We already had that arguement this month. If you want to discuss their political influences, go right ahead. Just keep it on the right topic.

2) I'm getting tired of seeing "x fanboyz" used to describe a game element that one person cares for and another does not. It's nothing more than a tongue in cheek way of deriding another person's opinion, and in my opinion, is akin to a personal attack, but on a much wider base. This isn't necessarily directed at sk8bcn , because I've seen a lot of it here lately. I'd like it to stop.

The "Ghosts hunting Surehand" thing was one of the adventure hooks in the Tree of Liberty section of the Aftershocks chapter of System Failure, page 184ish.

That whole Tree of Liberty section was just a waste of paper.

The whole system crash book was a waste of paper IMO. A cheaply written way of ending SR3 and rewriting much of the slate for the already by then written SR4. But not a lot of writers can start with the beginning, write the ending, and then fill in the middle meaningfully as an afterthought.

The Tirs worked well for gaming in my opinion. Better sections could certainly have been written on getting in and out. The TT book needed a lot more on the entire region than the heavy focus on Portland. If I remember correctly a Sioux military Airbus got shotdown trying to run surveillance over Crater Lake. Oooh, creepy elves stop everyone from getting there.. but they made it past the border in the first place.

I find the complaints about IEs funny coming from anybody who defends the Mary Sue treatment of Great Dragons in SR4. Great Dragons are effectively the munchkins version of how they describe IEs. All the magic in the world, PLUS awesome physical abilities and "edge" abilities to put them over the top. As said before, IEs are a plot device and are just as powerful as Damien Knight who can conceivably for story purposes whip out any prototype technological device to counter every move a runner makes. The IEs are more interesting though because Damien Knight has pretty much sole control over Ares, where as several powerful IEs split control over TT and TnO (or are they not immortal in TnO?) and create a lot of Shadowrun opportunity against each other along with all the outside forces normally present.

Anyways, for the challenge of how it should be developed it seems pretty clear that CGL isn't going there. They seem pretty set in their ways and not willing to change directions that upset things with SR3 fans. For those of you saying you're glad the Earthdawn connections are over, I sadly point out the last chat said that they're coming back. I do wish they'd go back to the roots of SR in SR1 which had NO Earthdawn. If you did go back 20 years in Shadowrun you'd find that nobody else was using any Earthdawn either. Making the 20 year anniversary of Shadowrun all about Earthdawn is a surefire way to make sure this SR1-3 GM and his players still don't pick up any books from SR4.