Hey, the ACHE rocks!

And who says all it does is Welfare Housing...

Hey, look at that Welfare Contract...

Instant Drafting during times of war?

Agreeance for trials of military drugs without knowledge?

Only beer for sale is Soyweiser?

It's a Hell! A living Hell! Some people liked it better when the AI was in charge!

Oh, and the rooftop is still off-limits. I bet the General and his troops are having orgies up there or something.

Aztechnology is a happy decent corporation. Its just that some times when you're working to make the world a better place for everyone you have to kill some motherfuckers and use their blood to power vast arcane rituals which may or may not bring horrific creatures to the earth. If their plan actually worked, the world would have been safe from the Horrors for the rest of the manacycle. It probably wouldn't have, but you never know.

Wow, that was the first in a long series of straw mans. Why am I not surprised that you failed to even get my basic point? What I don't like about magic in SR4 is that it has been overly watered down to being just "Magic" and all semblance to ancient earth folklore is being diluted out.

Now this may come as a big shock to you, but SR3 had Virtual reality (in fact the real thing, not everything is Wi-Fi and I can computer hack your kitchen utensils by looking at them), AIs, and even better yet it treated technology as technology and not mystic "techno-powers" like SR4 seems to. Otaku were a rarity and not yet entirely explained with metaphysical mumbo-jumbo.




It would be just fine. In fact in the very first Shadowrun novel ever printed they did just that, and yet it remained a very credible, tense and scary moment. In otherwords it contained a lot of suspense and drama that actually makes good reading. Most people consider "G-d like powers and can do whatever it wants" to make for very boring stories and it is why you won't see many of them in the fiction section of your local bookstore. Certainly not on the bestsellers list. It is that very reason that people hated IEs in 2nd edition, but all 4th edition has done is brought them back with the name of "Dragons".



Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining simply that leaders were changed. Dunkelzahn's death greatly impacted the world of Shadowrun and was done in an awesome way storywise. But SR4 isn't about removing leaders for dramatic reasons or even intrique. The flippant way in which they replace most major figures shows me that they're just trying to dismiss the existing canon. As I said it is just like the Shadowrun video game for X-box, only at least that game didn't do us the disservice of pretending to be the same universe. But I'm not surprised you're not getting it or being obtuse because the Tir were NEVER anything like "Metahuman Israelis".

The Tirs are all about elves, particularly an ancient elven culture that came from some previous age of magic based off of either Irish mythology or Earthdawn (and in Findley's great style you could pick depending on which Shadowtalk you choose to believe). So of course when you're rebuilding your great Elven empire from the previous age you abdicate power and put an Ork in charge to represent your elven cultural takeover?



That is pure fanboy nonsense. A static world simply isn't Shadowrun (though it should be pointed out that Milton-Bradley makes a killing with THOSE types of games, more than ANY RPG).

But what you and the developers of 4.0 seem to have no clue of is PLOT and CONTINUITY. Do you realize that there is a good reason why stories have continuity and movie sets have people on set who simply keep track of those things? But those things are why SR has gone from 2nd most popular RPG to surprised if the next local game store I walk into even carries it in hardback.

I understand that people who really love their "Cult" or "niche" product will do everything it takes to defend it from mass popularity. But that more popular Shadowrun is still the one that some of us want back. In business one of the general rules for expanding and adding customers is not to accept scaring off your old customers because there is never any guarantee the new customers will buy or stay loyal, but loyal and branded customers are what every marketing exec strives for.

Catalyst games has done an excellent job with Battletech and that came has come back out of nowhere. A big part of that is getting old players back and allowing all versions of the game. I guarantee that battletech strategy will be more successful than "out with the old, in with the new customers" on Shadowrun.

Anyways, just like the last days of 2nd edition sometimes things have to get worse and hit bottom before people are willing to accept the kinds of change to make it better. I hope 5th edition (or 3.5) is quick in coming and decides to go back to the attitude, continuity and feel of 1st or 3rd edition stories.

Otaku have been a part of SR before any of that crap hit the box office and the main difference between them and TMs is that you don't have to strain your suspension of disbelieve to make a 12 year old run the shadows and that you get an explanation for why they can influence the matrix with their brain alone.
So, i don't quite get your constant Neo remarks.
Another problem with one of your players?





Infected rights are another setting element that has been around since SR2.
You might have noticed stuff like Cabrini Green, bounties on ghouls being removed in several jurisdictions, dicussion of the whole issue among metahuman rights activists and so on throughout SR2-3.

The changes in RC where not exactly overdue, but in contrast to some other developments, they where not premature, either.




"The real thing".
Yeah, right, clinging to an 80s vision of the future until it becomes ridiculous.
Great.
So, you would prefer a world 60 years from now with computer technology that already appeared partially outdated in the mid 90s?
And otaku whose powers are completely unexplained and do not even at least pretend to make sense?


I agree on the great dragon part, though.
Turning GDs into the new Mary Sues was one of the worst decisions in 4e (and giving example stats that showed that Ghostwalker's behaviour in Denver would have gotten him instakilled without plot immunity didn't make it any better- not that coming up with Ghostwalker was a good idea in the first place).


But my intense dislike for Mary Sues and continuity wank is exactly the reason why i never was too happy with TT to begin with.

Yeah, they could have done something better to remove that bunch of disgusting pet NSC.
I wouldn't have dreamt of putting an ork in charge there, either.
From what we can tell, it doesn't make any sense at all, i completely agree on that point, too.

But getting rid of Lugh, Ehran and the rest of that plotwanky pointy ears is a change i certainly welcome.

I think the issue is that Otaku were their own unique thing that came out of cyberpunk literature where Technomancers are more of an exact rip-off of the Matrix movies. Why dump what is uniquely yours for something that is more of a copy?



"in contrast to other developments"?? So are we scaling an acceptable amount of badness here. A lot of this is probably because of the stiff time jump to 4th edition, but I consider that another bad decision. Too many things changed too fast for old school Shadowrunners. 1st to 2nd, and 2nd to 3rd editions had smooth transitions that advanced time at a regular pace without a "jump" in the calendar so as to come up with all kinds of excuses to scrub the setting clean. While this change in and of itself wasn't bad, it is just one more thing like the Tir changes that contribute to them trying to rewrite the entire setting of Shadowrun.



Not completely explaining everything is one of the things that makes Shadowrun great. Every GM has wide license to accept what they want the reality to be in how they interpret 3rd edition sourcebooks. The 80s comment is just silly. 3rd edition was nothing like playing in the 80s, the advancements kept pace with the development of the license . The problem is that 4th edition rather wants to erase all continuity of those "80s" elements. The whole wi-fi thing is just taken too far because land line technology and virtual reality aren't obsolete, in fact virtual reality is more today than ever before with MMO gaming and land lines continue to be the unreplacable backbones of the internet and wi-fi is just the peripheral attachment that 3rd edition treated it as. Augmented reality would have made a nice addition to the Shadowrun universe, but I find it makes a lousy replacement to the cyberpunk elements of Shadowrun.



Glad to see some common ground emerge at least. I just happen to disagree that the Tir elves were plotwanky Mary Sues. There are only 3 IEs I put in that category: Leonardo (properly killed off), Harlequin (slapped back down to his level), Alachia (still needs to be punked).

What specifically didn't you like about the Tir elves?

As a GM I loved them because each one was a treasure trove of plot hooks, twists, and a useful device for getting the runners into locations they'd rather not be.

Tir Tairngire == Elven Mormonic State.
Think about it.

That is just plain silly, as there is already a state based on elven autocracy and deeply rooted in mythology: Tir na nOg. No need for Tairngire in the first place.

You're completely right here. However, that still doesn't change player perceptions one iota (I know, I've tried).



Accomplishing what precisely? You can't make players do anything - at least not without tons of whining later.



Hardly! The x-box game isn't even SR just a FPS with the SR logo slapped on it. Pulling the princes out (IF they are really out) is only on that scale in your opinion. Kicking out the princes simply does not have that much effect on the setting as a whole.



No. The game now has mechanics that work and present a predictable interaction of real world traditions (I ain't touching the tech end) that in reality have little to no "mechanical" (ie how they work) difference between them.



This statement is patently untrue. But then since you by your own statement don't buy the books that means you aren't working with full information, correct?



Late second was fun for a while, but it got old.



Then the answer to your problem is simple - tough it out and run with it, or find another game (like continuing running with 3rd as some do). In either case, there is no point whatsoever in complaining about the changes to the game if you are unwilling to put in even the minimal work required to customize it to your preferences. Not saying you can't complain, just don't expect me to take it seriously when you do.



Resonance = magic. Netcat's story in the back of RC made that painfully and sadly obvious.

Nope, with the technomancer powers in unwired and the BBB. And Otaku were RARE. In some 18 years of on-and-off playing SR, I got to know of exactly two otaku players. Technomancers, however, aren't Otaku. They're not a rarity, they're not nearly haldleable by anything but other technos, rules-wise, they're vastly overpowered and, to top it off, they're not like the Otaku of old, but a corny Neo rip-off.


Insight. But if they won't go there, they won't, that's right.


Because neither did the october revolution have much of an effect on Russia, nor did the French revolution have much of an effect on France. Or disposing of the communist elite in, say, Poland, on Poland.

Changing the entire system of government tends to effect everything in a country.


Netcat's propably my least favourite official NPC ever. Also, if it's supposed to be magic, why not use the magic attribute?

I was talking about the world, not the country when I said "setting".



Dunno, likely to give it some mystery and at least the pretense of not being magic for those who hate the idea of magic in the Matrix. I'm just saying that the fiction removes all doubt in my mind that it's magic - it reads exactly like an astral quest (and yes, I know the mechanics are the same - I was hoping however that the fluff would be significantly different in some way).

Ah, took it as the specific Tir setting.


Only that Technos now can netherwalk by default, if only in their "world". I consider this vastly overpowered - there's simply no way to keep a computer technoproof.

The Fluff isn't different. And here's another problem with 4th, if you ask me: it doesn't seem to know where it's heading. They rewrite and retcon the setting more than has been in the last 19 years put together, but it doesn't seem to have a direction. First, the arc gets switched back and forth from public to secret knowledge, then technos, first a funky but accepted novelty in the world, get a shitload of hate piled upon them, which then dissipades for mysterious reasons. Also, first, technos are versatile but not overly overpowered, now they're gods of the matrix, but everyone keeps talking about balancing them up against hackers. Finally, all of a sudden, the infected get civil rights, after the setting has well established noone wants them to, because everyone likes to shoot them dead. And all the while, established parts of the setting are razed and distroted because someone seems to have cool ideas on this or some, and it just fits less and less with one another.

I don't know, maybe the devs don't communicate much at all, but this doesn't look good.

Methinks the one who lost focus is you. First, you have to respect the narrative level, which switches between the different supplements from being focused on seattle as the core setting, onwards to a more global scale back on micros. The ARC-Incident was big time for Seattle and the UCAS but not that important globally. So if it is public knowledge what happened in the Arc that means that Seattlers are in touch with the issue not necessary that the neo-tokyoan wageslave knows of it that intimately and jumps on the Raku ad-train who delivers the smartest, cheapest drones ever to your home. Same for the inficted. Okay, they are granted limited civil rights. That doesn't save them from being gangraped by a pile of self proclaimed Van Helsings and monster slayers. Heck, even the SecCorps in the area will persecute them if none watches.

Then Matrix and Technomancers. I know you are not fond of the idea that something could be more intimiatly powerfull than a mundane hacker in matrix related terms but that doesn't mean your perspective is the right one to follow. Mancers are the new players emerging on the battlefield and it is yet to determine how great their inpact will be storywise. They, too, suffer from mistrust and persecution just as the fluff in Unwired shows.

So what I try to communicate is that you should try to loosen your grip on the text itself and try to understand the metagaming level on which the story is based in order to widen your approach to the game.

After all, it's not about the rules, it's about the storyline!

...

Hey, is Elfy Disneyland licensed? Or do I have to smuggle in my own hooch?

That might be Emergence's stance, yes. Arsenal and the BBB say differently. Read the entry on the manservant, the BBB timeline, and the entry on the centipede. Plus, read the "global audience" part of the Matrix for Dummies chapter in unwired and then say again people are supposed to think strictly locally, because that states the exact opposite. It'S just a mess of retconned retcons. Bad writing, in other words.


Uh, right, some corps might want to snatch them, still, despite the public loving them. Take Horizon as a group contact and they will media blitz you out of any trouble, though. Problem solved.

And yes, I strongly dislike how insanely powerful Technos have become, but that's more of a crunch matter. Fluffwise, they don't fit with the setting, they've been imposed onto it in a very clumsy style, and they're just being written up to godlikeness because CGL lets frustrated otaku players like Ultraviolet do the writing. But that's a topic for another discussion (one we already had repeatedly).


No offense, but this isn't oWoD, and having to do that sucked in the oWoD to begin with. SR used to be less crappy than that.

Maybe your players, my SR3 players are all the same (by the way out of all my SR3 players only one has made the switch to 4th edition, and he still prefers 3rd but I'm not his GM anymore).



Wow, you really proved me wrong there. Other than the timeline, there isn't a lot of continuity from SR3 that they both share. But feel free to list the many ways SR4 is more Shadowrun than the X-box game.



Whatever, you won't even touch the tech end so... the magic end is more "real world"?



Sure there is, without good feedback to work from that can't figure how to fix Shadowrun going forward. I'm still a loyal fan of the setting from 1st edition, and remain an eager potential customer but I don't believe in rewarding CGL or Wizkids for producing what I consider a bad product I don't enjoy. But if you think there is truly no point to arguging, why are you wasting your own time complaining about my complaints? Your actions indicate you either do believe there is a point you're not being honest about or you're just trolling.



4th edition Runner's companion you mean? Exactly our point about 4th edition and "matrix technomagic". It is said that the matrix system is devolving to just another magic system. I prefer two magic systems but they should be hermetic/logical and shamanistic/emotional.

But for all of you who think the old Tir setting is so bad and disliked, why are both the two Tir books among the best selling Shadowrun sourcebooks of all time? Tir Na Nog is not only one of the few 2nd edition books still available on battlecorp, but one of the higher priced ones as well.

I don't think that the old Tir settings are disliked.
In fact, i always liked TnO.
TT on the other hand...i wouldn't say it's bad...it's just terribly bland.
TnO really managed to get that feeling of mystery and reaching back to Celtic traditions and also the sense of opression and despair in the face of a snobbish elite that should acompany an elven banana republic.


TT on the other hand claimed to be that place founded by that ancient elven conspiracy, but there was nothing ancient about it moodwise.

Shure, it had all those ED/IE references so all the people who knew about the continuity could get that soft, warm glow inside.
But besides that?
The whole description seemed sterile, there was a sense of syntheticity about the whole place.
It was a place run by elites thousands of years old, but in fact, it had the feel of a dictatorship set up by a bunch of yuppie elf posers.
All that seemed fantastic and ancient about TT was the fact that some ED NPCs made cameo appearances.
It just didn't work.

It had nothing comparable to path magic and the accompanying belief system, it did not make you wonder what the founders of that nation where really up to, nor did it provide a description of the country itself that was anywhere nearly as vibrant as that found in TnO.
It just gave a bunch of easily trackable references (easily trackable for the players- completely unnoticeable for the PCs) instead of making you wonder what was really going on, let alone create an impression that a state like this could have been built only by people who had lived in the 4th world.

It lacked to make internal conflicts within the setting tangible, whereas in TnO, everything that went wrong there jumped right into your face and also showed the tension running through TnO society by providing a believable opposition, be it on the streets of Belfast or in the Unseelie Court.

TnO created the image of a state struck with terror, racial bigottry and eco-fascism, providing a believable elven dictatorship.
After reading TnO, i had an idea of what life in former Ireland was like and why it sucked for anyone who was not part of the ruling class.

TT paled in comparison to that, it did absolutely nothing but saying "look, there's our pet NSC and they've set up that state that's like, uhm, really, really bad to everyone who's not an elf, okay? Neat, isn't it? Look, those IEs freak out when they see roses, do you get the reference? Funny, huh? Do you nfeel rewarded for buying ED now?".

Well I agreed with most of your points, particularly about some of the downsides to the TT book but I think I would give it a higher overall rating than you did. I did find it to have a lot of history implied, though I wasn't in favor of playing up ED background so much and not playing up the mythology/folklore background.

Regardless I'm disturbed that from the points you brought up CGL appears to be taking the Tir in the other direction and not towards the direction of making it a more richly detailed elven state with a deep background.

I preferred TT to TnO largely because of the leader profiles. I had a better sense of who the Runners might be working for in TT rather than just a generic cause they were working on behalf of. When I did Tir missions my players were interested in a run for a Johnson and not for going on crusades of their own.

What amount of those references were in character?



No thanks. It obviously wouldn't make one iota of difference.



Go with what you know. *shrug* It's more reminiscent in terms of mechanics to the basic concepts of real world traditions, regardless of the actual validity (which is highly debatable) of said traditions.



If SR4 doesn't sell, do you really think anyone will want to continue producing the IP in today's market? That is the entirety of my point at it's most basic level.



I used to believe that people could be made to see reason if it was presented to them clearly enough. I'm still in the process of learning that that sentiment is not true, regardless of what the topic of discussion is. So yes, I am not being honest - with myself.



Yes.



People like to learn secrets.

They weren't shadowtalk at all. They were word-of-god, game information style, out of character setting descriptions.


Granted, we haven't rad much about how TnO is going to be 'excitingly redeveloped' at all as of yet. And yes, TnN always was the better developed and written setting (sorry Nigel). However, TT had one very important advantage: you could play in it outside of a special campaign with IE or IE antagonist backing. Seriously, even getting into the Tir, let alone getting equipment there (which all characters save for mages and technomancers live and die by) is pretty much impossible, let alone operate there without an extensive elfy guanxi network.

TnN is great for character backgrounds. My two favourite characters are from there. TnN also is fun for special runs - but it's not a setting where you can send your average runners just like that, like many other settings are.

Tir Taingire was a compromise. Not quite as closed as TnN For one, you have a chance to evade Ghosts. They're some 3000 soldiers and have to guard some 3000 kilometers of border. They cannot be everywhere at once. Also, it's not as complicated as TnN with it's Danaan families, proxy democracy, and various factions from the Unseelie to the Ulster terrorists - you had elfy fascists, suppressed underclass nonelves, the rinelles, and the IE, which made for a much more approachable setting. For all purposes, TT was TnN lite.

Now, with TT gone, either TnN becomes a more lite version of elfy fascism, or it will be razed too and governed by cool stuff - HMHVV infected cetaur drakes or somesuch. I don't know. I just don't have high expectations anymore.

That's not what I mean. Were they in the game information sections, or in the general information sections (which are written from an in character pov)?

Game info. There was some stuff on the arc in in-character writing too, in Emergence, but even there, Game Info stated stuff countrary to the BBB and the drone descriptions (which I take as game info) in Arsenal.

Fair enough.

Good point.
When you go for the whole political intrigue stuff, you have to know the various faction's motivations and SOPs, of course.
As TT provided a group of well-established NSC, it was easier to come up with that.

Problem was, the setting never motivated me to write a run there, let alone a campaign.
It's a pity, as Nigel Findley was indeed capable of writing a continuity-centered sourcebook about an authoritarian regime with 4th world ties that was truly captivating, as Aztlan showed us.


@ Hermit : yes, TnN was one of those settings for large-scale infiltration/undercover campaigns, like Aztlan or TT, but more so.
Unless you played a group of natives or had strong corporate/government backing to get in there, it was suitable only for experienced, well-connected runners with excellent planning.
It was as deadly as Bug City, but in a completely different way.

And i really hope they don't change it in this edition.
Because for a good setting, you need locations that necessitate different approaches towards running, that require a group to adapt to specific local challenges.
Celtic Double Cross did a good job in bringing out the unique local flavour of TnO as well as the strategic implications of running in an authoritarian system instead of a weakened, corrupt nation state without gun control.

Of course, that's not suited for beginners.
But for those, we have Seattle, Hong Kong or Hamburg.
There's a reason why Runner Havens was the first location-centered supplement, as it contains the default settings.

I really hope they're not going to water TnO down to make it more accessible (i'm afraid that's what happened to Bug City), some places should be designated specifically for high-level play.

Well, we'll see how it turns out in Cities of Intrigue or Awakened Haunts, probably.

So do I, but when have the current authors hesitated to smash old stuff and replace it with crap Horizon media-blitzed into existence?


I'm afraid that's what'll happen to the Tir. But meh, I am sulking here. Maybe they will get it right. I just don't believe in the authors.

And since SR4 wants to be "street" again, like SR never was, such a high-level setting won't fit into their portfolio.

Well it was quite enough to set a run in Portland, other areas I'd agree were very weak on. Being as my Shadowrun group was in Oregon, we had enough local knowledge to do what we needed or wanted. Corporate Punishment had good ways of bringing people in, and I always had it as a GM that of course any official Tir group could easily sneak a group of Runners in for acting anonymously in their own country. TT and TnO should both keep the iron curtains, but I would like to see them have more holes in them that special opposing groups have developed.



Changing the leader of an Elven nation to an Ork is off to a very, very bad start.

Plus I should point out that even Shadows of North America (and Europe) starting diluting general security in both countries and is trying to turn them into more lawless type environments. Like you I would hope they stay high security but justed have a few easily exploited legal/illegal entries into the country for international runner groups.

Anyways I have little hopes for the setting at this point as it seems most of the intent is to "pave" over established settings and setup them in their own way. The strong character of Native American and Elven Nations is certainly one of the things that will keep me away from GMing 4th edition in perpetuity.

Aztlan SB did a very good job as far as that issue was concerned.
With detailed descriptions of various ways to sneak into the country, border guard tactics and so on.
If you want a more low-level group to run there, you can still take your approach and let member of the local powers that be arrange entry.

That's something i would welcome for new writeups of the Tirs.

However, for TnO, i don't see that happening, as i doubt that Dublin or Belfast will get more than one of the quick overviews at the end of either Cities of Intigue or Awakened Haunts (if anything at all).




Collapsed states are an integral part of SR, in fact, have been before the term state failure reached today's salience in political circles.
Don't know if it's going in that direction, though, i missed out on most SR3 material.

What i can imagine is larger scale asymetric warfare in Ulster (and it would be easy to escalate this conflict without straining the readers' imagination in the slightest), but from what i can tell, the changeover in TT just came out of nowhere.
With the current lack of information, i don't know what to make of Zincan, let alone the complete situation in TT.

Personally, i wouldn't have minded a reboot of the whole SR setting in the slightest.
The developers have shunned this, probably because it proved desastrous for White Wolf (don't know about nWoD in the US, but over here, the game is dead, mostly because of sudden continuity porn interruption- them German gamers are a plotwanky bunch).

Still, the need to change established settings is there- if you don't bring about changes for a location that has already had a sourcebook of its own, older gamers will most likely not feel the need to buy it.

The format of SR4s setting SBs could offer a good solution to this problem, as most cities will not get more than a brief update anyway.
In fact, i would have preferred more extended chapters on new locales instead of one more lenghty text about Seattle.

oWoD was the top selling RPG here in the U.S., nWoD isn't faring so well though they're still in business. Of course now White Wolf has been bought out by CCP of Iceland so the future will probably trend away from Pen and Paper. I do fear SR is on the same course but Wizkids/CGL can't fall back on computer game rights as Microsoft has those from FASA's demise.

For TnO I would love to see the "Iron Curtain" stay in place but some oppositional groups like the TT princes, Vatican, and Fomorians have their own easy ways to sneak Shadowrunners in there. Wars aren't that useful for Shadowrunners, but a could cold war or shadow conflict always is. (I wrote two book proposals that would have involved the Fomorian tangent that I finished just in time for 4th edition to be announced and shelved them unsubmitted)

For TT I see continued internal conflict between Princes, Dragons, and it would be nice to have some more NAN conflict in there. I mean you have a lot of tribes that should have a vested interest in sacred sites (Bridge of the G-ds?) and artifacts (She Who Watches?) Not all elves are caucasian and the Tir could easily have a 5th column inside its borders. I also think some Feathered Serpents should object to Western Dragons muscling in on their turf in TT (and I've GM'd campaigns based on striking at Lofwyr or Hestaby's holding in TT).

So, is anyone planning to make a book proposal for TT?

You meal like Aztlan in Shadows of Latin America?

Fact is, there's been a lot of changes that are good concepts, but are poorly thought out in execution. I don't have Unwired, but as the BBB has it, Technomancers are virtually unplayable. Their BP costs need to be seriously rethought; if you're a good min/maxer and can squeeze the life out of every last point, you might end up with someone who's just about as good at computers as a normal decker. Sprites are still overpowered in relation to the TM's that summon them.

My thought is that they saw a bunch of shiny new toys, and bolted them on, then squished the setting around them to fit. This has left gaping loopholes in the world and the ruleset. Those holes have been discussed repeatedly here, so I'm sure everyone can come up with a bunch of examples without my help.

As for the "SR4-- Love it or leave it!" crowd, I'm going to reply with this: Dumpshock is a place to discuss Shadowrun in all its forms, and that includes criticizing the direction it's going in. The developers and writers do hang out here, and some do listen to what Dumpshockers have to say. In fact, in the early days of SR4, some of us raised such a ruckus over some of the most glaring rules problems, our suggestions were added in the form of errata.

You, as a Shadowrun player and consumer, are an important part of the gaming market. TSR died because it didn't listen to its players. If Shadowrun is to survive in an increasingly-competitive market, it will need to do so by listening to its fans, and giving them what they want: a better game. Simply playing yes-man to everything new, and turning a blind eye to the flaws, will ensure an inferior product. The only way this game will continue to thrive is if people criticize the products, the developers, and everything else, and force them to make it better.

I have not seen any suggestion of a "love it or leave it" take on SR4. What I have seen (in other threads) is significant vitriolic abuse of writers rather than constructive criticism of content.

Constructive criticism is a good thing. Telling the writers they're scum (or the equivalent, again other threads) is not.

I agree about constructive criticism being a good thing, and flaming is bad. However, earlier in this thread, I saw:


Basically, telling people to find another game is the "Love it or leave it!" mentality. Constructive criticism implies that we know what the problem is, and how to fix it. You don't give the plumber constructive criticism when your pipes are broken; so when you have a broken game rule, you're not obliged ask nicely for them to fix it. You pay money for a good product. If you have to house-rule it into oblivion, then you don't have a good product.

I'm not a professional game designer or marketer; I don't know how to fix things. I know what I'd like to see. But hey, I shouldn't have to tell the plumber how to fix my pipes; it should be enough that I'm complaining that there's water all over the kitchen floor. As a customer, I should be able to tell the game makers what I want, and pay money for them to deliver. The answer shouldn't be: "Move out of your house or fix it yourself."

I write book proposals for a Paranormals book and an Elven Nations book but never submitted it due bad timing with SR4 being announced after completing the first one. I've used the Paranormals one quite a bit in my own campaigns because SR3 had no good way of really using them other than throwing stats into Critters. Plus I wanted to create paranormal environments and not just critters; so the home of a Black Annis isn't just some forest or savannah, the home of a Black Annis is a tree that has the paranormal abilities of Shadow Cloak and Silence to really creep the runners out and give them a fight as well as seeming more right because it is a complete ecology and not just a monster manual.

Similarly I always thought the Elven Nations were rich enough in detail to warrant their own "Target" book because they're such a popular setting to at least read if not play in. I believe a lot can be done to take the setting from before, make it more playable while adding to the setting rather than subtracting (Ahem, like removing Elven rulers from an Elven Nation) from it.

I don't see CGL having any interest in the proposals with the way SR4 is going so it is probably safe at this point to try to convert them to fanbook supplements and put them up on the internet somewhere.

Yes you did see that phrase. And yes I understand and agree with your perspective to some extent. However you may also have noticed the explanation "If SR4 doesn't sell, do you really think anyone will want to continue producing the IP in today's market? That is the entirety of my point at it's most basic level.". I never said people can't complain or criticize. If you would have read the sentence after the one you quoted you'd know this. I think what I mean should be rather clear by now - if your gonna criticize make it constructive and do it respectfully. There's a thread (re)linked in my sig all about that and people's misinterpretations of the concept. While Hermit is doing so semi-amicably, he is merely bitching (to paraphrase "Horizon sucks, the new TT sucks, technos suck, the devs don't communicate don't understand plot/continuity and are killing the game etc"). That's why I made that statement. What I'm saying in essence then is SR4 is what we have. You don't have to play it or even buy it, but offer constructive criticism instead of poisoning the well for new people because doing so makes it more likely SR4 won't sell and we won't have SR at all. That is not tolerable to me. Does that make sense?

I hold that if SR4 doesn't sell it is more likely we will have SR5 (or 3.5).

Shadowrun is too valuable a franchise, Wizkids will either use it or sell it.

So please stop with the fear mongering that if you criticize SR4 you're going to kill Shadowrun. I don't see you trying to be constructive in criticism but trying to stifle criticism entirely. As evidenced by your rant in the other thread.

I guess you missed the point there too huh? I'll repeat - constructive criticism = fine, flaming and tearing down = bad. Now, how in the wide world of sports do you get "trying to stifle criticism entirely" out of that?

As for me offering constructive criticism, 1) I don't see any glaring problems that could be solved by anything I would say (for instance, technos are basically magical - unpleasing, but the material is already out there and nothing I say will unprint it), and 2) since I can't get seem to get shit done myself in terms of writing I don't feel it's my place to complain overly much at those who can. That's why you don't see me offering much in the way of criticism to the writers/devs.

Lastly, fear mongering? Perhaps. It is a real concern I have. Are you saying that I shouldn't have and state my opinion? Or shall I just shut up and quit posting?

Talk about hypocrisy. You omitted the paragraph before my "what I hate" list (the "what I like" list), but do want everything you say seen in whatever larger context in the very same posting.


I have heared that kind of reasoning pretty often, from german WoD boards to the final years of the communist block (on their own stations). To me, it's a kiss of doom. If mere criticism is going to kill something off, it's propably better off dead anyway. And yes, by 'constructive criticism' you don't mean criticism but sucking up to the makers and swallowing anything that rubs you the wrong way. The way I see it, Universal Harmony is stagnation, and stagnation is doom. Change doesn't come easily, though, and it needs people that point out wrongs so they can be righted. Now, 'wrong' is in the eye of the beholder, and inevitably someone's pointing out will hurt someone who wrote that part and is proud of it. Change never comes without conflict, for better or worse-

And since I usually word my criticism carefully enough (though I am guilty of occasionally formulating my criticism sharply for attention's sake) and already have pointed out stuff that needs errata that authors assured me they'll put into E1.6 (machine sprites, the swap echos, multiple threading), I don't quite see where I'm just slandering and ranting. You, on the other hand, and your the-party-is-always-right line of reasoning contribute ... what?


QFT


Reread your rant, reread what you wrote 4 posts up about my reply to a list of my likes and dislikes of SR4, and then think about it.

Quoting relevant portions of the text that one is responding to is highly different than deliberately omitting for nefarious reasons. That's an old accusation that people love to use on religious boards and it's just as fallacious here.



I mean what I mean and putting your words in my mouth won't change that.



Y'know, I got a secret to tell you. I'm not omniscient. I didn't know that. All I know about you is what you've said in this thread and a couple others recently. Even so, I noted you were doing so "semi-amicably" which is close enough more or less. I use specific words for a reason, because they have a specific meaning and implication, not just to fill space on the page. The only reason I brought your name up is because Cain referenced a statement I made to you - ie I was justifying and explaining said statement. I actually don't have a huge problem with you, so kindly get off my back huh?



I did. Did you notice "Ask questions, get clarification, give feedback, hell that's all good." and the statement I made saying you can complain all you want. Did you reread those and think about it? Or are you just irked that I don't agree with you so you like so many others just jumped to the "your an asshole Nightmare" without even bothering to understand what I've repeatedly said? I mean good god people you'd think I went around and individually pissed in each of your cornflakes from the response and lack of comprehension that idiotic rant of mine has provoked.

So I'll ask you the same question as I did Not of This World - since I'm such a huge asshole for saying something that's in the bloody TOS, should I just shut up and stop posting? Hell maybe I should make a poll on that or something.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. Words have widely different meanings in different context, which includes the reader's assumptions. Maybe you didn't intend that to be an insult, it came across to me as such. Oh, and again: you distort my post to fit your line of argumentation. Yes, it's common on religious boards, and it sucks there too, so, quit doing it, I suppose.


Hypocrite, again. Also, if you're misunderstood so often by so many people, maybe, just maybe, the problem lies on your end of the communication? Just sayin'.

Since that's the case, I'm sorry. That wasn't the intention.



How so, specifically. By quoting the specific portions of the post I'm responding to (like you do, like the rest of the board and the forums in general do)? Or are you just saying it's only wrong when I do it? Further, how is this distorting your post when anyone with a mouse can simply scroll up or click the embedded link to see the full text of what you said? This is an ad hominem argument/accusation, pure and simple.



But since we're talking about insults atm, this is the second time you've called me a hypocrite. Certainly sounds like an insult to me.



I already made note of that in the stupid (yes, it's stupid - I should have never posted the damn thing and knowing my fucking luck I'll probably get banned for it) rant thread. See, to me words do have very specific meanings, yes depending on context, but the reader's assumptions are not one of those contexts. After all, we can't be expected to read each others' minds to figure out what kind of meaning someone else will project onto our words beyond the commonly accepted definitions - especially on the internet. That's not nonsense to me, but simple fact.

Regardless, this has gone on for long enough. You (and the rest of the world) can treat any question I've asked as rhetorical if you wish, or post on them as much as you wish, your choice. Suffice to say, everyone that jumped on the dogpile wins - I'm an asshole and an idiot and any other label you want to slap on me. Nuff said.

I thought the same thing when I jumped into SR4 coming from SR1. But long time players would have absolutely shat themselves.

SoLA is dead. Long live SoLA!



I agree with this 113%. Providing useful, reasonable, well thought-out criticism beyond Product X is "the suxx0r" can only ensure a better product down the road. Busted rules are busted rules and those need to be pointed out. What raises the hair on the back of my neck is an insistence on maintaining the status-quo simply for the purposes of nostalgia.

To answer your question about games not selling well but enduring: Traveller just got another major release. I haven't seen it yet, but the reviews I've read say it's decently faithful to the original concepts. And Traveller never sold in the levels that Shadowrun did, let alone any of the big players. Earthdawn was never a major hit, even when FASA and Living Room Games had it; but Redbrick picked it up and is reportedly doing quite well with it. I've yet to hear of a Star Trek RPG hitting the RPG bestsellers list, but that doesn't stop the IP from being a hot commodity among gaming companies. If it's a good concept, the IP will endure, and someone will take it up.

And while I agree that responses should be respectful and polite, they don't need to be "constructive". Most customer feedback doesn't work that way. If I have a problem with my car, I shouldn't have to tell the mechanic how to fix it. When I pay money for a bad of chips, all my complaint has to be is: "These chips taste bad!" I should not be expected to have a new test formula for the company to try. That's *their* job, not mine.

Agreed.

Hmm ... rather than fill up the page with multi-quotes, I'll just try to hit on the topic items I wanted to respond to ...

1) I actually would rather not get a TT book, if they are as tight as they are supposed to be I would expect little in the way of real game information. The best source book on TT would be 90% shadowtalk, most of it contradictory, with odd references from handles identifiable as IE that offer no real explanation to the subject at hand.

2) Rebooting the timeline - well, each BBB pretty much retconned half of the edition before it, so either way is fine with me.

3) Technomancers - they seem overpowered, but I haven't seen one in play. I always found the matrix tough to integrate with the rest of play. My guess though is that they will balance things out, and the difference will be more like that between shamen and mages.

4) Issues with SR4 - that really is beyond the topic here. I like some of it and don't care for other parts.

5) Criticism - This is a forum. We play SR. We talk about what we like and don't like. The conversation was actually fairly constructive until yesterday. I understand your point of view, NightmareX, but you tend to post like you are trolling for a fight. Words do have very specific meanings, but if that meaning in known only to you it is of no help to the rest of us. That said, I doubt it is the words you use but more your tone. Your style is very aggressive and on the internet that comes off as belligerent. Wait a minute or two before you hit send and reread your posts. It may save you many headaches over the years.

Agreed, but I'm far from the only one that adopts a rather aggressive tone here no?

No, you are not. But you asked. I don't take it personally, I realize that you lose a lot of context in a conversation like this. I was just explaining why others may take offence. I kill more than a few posts because sometimes it is easier to just let the issue die. I could do that with this post and the one above it, but I don't see it doing much harm, so I let them go.

Kk, no prob

I don't think those with criticism should have to have a solution, just a more detailed level of criticism. For example, "Technomancer's suck" (relatively neutral criticism by itself) would be much more useful to everyone, if it was followed with an explanation by the poster as to why the poster thinks they suck. I for one believe that: 1) the build point cost for complex forms is too high; 2) asking them to buy cracking skills twice if they want to also use a comlink is a poor choice (because it costs yet more build points to no other good effect); and 3) that cyberware interferes with their abilities is odd given the characters connection to technology, and that logically it means that all Otaku were actually impaired by their implants. Of course they also have the potential to develop powers that hackers are denied so they start out very weak, and can end up very powerful. One could argue that that is balanceing, but relying on campaign length for balance has its own problems as could be seen in the magic-users of older editions of D&D (die too easy at low levels, spells like wish at high levels).

As for Tir Taingire, the little recent news we have been told to date does give me pause, because I enjoyed having a high end local (with respect to difficulty for the runners) close to Seattle. I also liked the storyline connections to the previous age of magic. On the other hand, replacing Immortal Elves with an ork does seem to me to be obvious manipulation from behind the scenes, so I am withholding judgment pending more details.

It may be more useful, but that's not how most customer feedback works. Most of the time, customer feedback comes in the form of a lot of "this sucks" letters. It's up to the company to figure out why: that means soliciting opinions from people, developing detailed feedback programs, and more research (in this case, playtesting).

As far as balance goes, I believe it was Frank Trollman who did the math, and showed that a TM didn't really reach the "matrix god" levels until you add several hundred karma, well outside the length of a normal campaign. I don't know how Unwired changes this equasion, if it does at all. If a wizard won't be the equal of a fighter until 15th level, and the average campaign peters out at around 10th level, the balance point becomes a myth.

I was reading my print copy of Unwired last night. I came across the page that introduced alternate rules options for technomancers. Such as: treat each complex form as though it were a spell, with no ratings and with the same cost in BP and Karma as spells for magicians. Then, when performing Matrix actions with the complex forms, the technomancer chooses a rating for the complex form, up to twice his Resonance. (page 39). It goes on from there but I'm not going to paste the whole passage.

I haven't crunched the numbers but it sounds like a serious bump up for TMs.

Unless you simultaneously do away with threading and use it's fading system for ratings > Resonance, yeah.