Do visibility modifiers stack? Options

[Ranger]

Do visibility modifiers stack, or do you just take the worst one?

For example, if you have only normal vision and are standing in a partially lit room (-2) that is filled with heavy smoke from a smoke grenade (-4) while someone is shining a flashlight in your eyes (-1), is your modifier -7 (the total), or -4 (the worst one)?

[Eugene]

I think the answer is "it depends." Strictly by the book, you'd get the -7 penalty. But the "Eyeballing the Modifiers" optional rules on p.55 suggests using the most severe modifier (-4 for smoke) and 'nudging' it up by one or two if there are a lot of additional factors. Thus probably -5, which makes some amount of sense because who cares if the room is dark if you have a flashlight in your face.

[Ranger]

I think the answer is "it depends." Strictly by the book, you'd get the -7 penalty. But the "Eyeballing the Modifiers" optional rules on p.55 suggests using the most severe modifier (-4 for smoke) and 'nudging' it up by one or two if there are a lot of additional factors. Thus probably -5, which makes some amount of sense because who cares if the room is dark if you have a flashlight in your face.

Thanks for your reply, Eugene.

I know about the eyeballing bit, but was just wondering if strictly by the rules if the modifiers stack. I can some cases where the modifiers would not stack, such as being in a fully dark room that's filled with smoke. Since it's fully dark, you can't see the smoke anyway. But, as per my first example, it seems logical that the modifiers would stack--at least to some degree.

Anyway, I'll just go with the eyeballing rule for now.

[psychophipps]

Do visibility modifiers stack, or do you just take the worst one?

For example, if you have only normal vision and are standing in a partially lit room (-2) that is filled with heavy smoke from a smoke grenade (-4) while someone is shining a flashlight in your eyes (-1), is your modifier -7 (the total), or -4 (the worst one)?

I would toss the full -7 at them, myself. But I'm a vicious bastard that realizes that taking that -7 means that many (Ok, most) runner characters will still toss 5+ dice for a shot. With those sorts of insanely bad situations, no character should be cutting them through the nugget except with an Edge roll tossed on top.

[HappyDaze]

I'd drop the glare modifier - or possibly invert it to a +1 - since, in a partially lit room with smoke, the flashlight guy will be easier to see.

[Tarantula]

If i'm at -7 then I'll happily say "I close my eyes" and just take -6 instead for full darkness.

[Ranger]

psychophipps: Sure, I can see that as being fair. I'm still debating which way to go. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

HappyDaze: Is he really easier to see when the light is in your eyes? You might have a general idea of the direction he's in by shooting toward the light source, but you're not exactly seeing *him*. You're just seeing the light emitting from the flashlight. Once he turns off the light, it should be even worse for you for a short time, due to your night eyes being ruined.

Tarantula: Definitely an option. Of course, if your intution is worse than your agility, then it's maybe not such a great idea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HappyDaze]

HappyDaze: Is he really easier to see when the light is in your eyes?

If there is enough smake to obscure him then there won't be any glare - much as you can look at the sun when it's barely vsiable through a cloud without any glare.

[CanRay]

Autoshotgun with Dikoted Steel Shot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[psychophipps]

Autoshotgun with Dikoted Steel Shot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

Because round shot covered by round dikote coating is still good for the 1/2 Impact armor from it's enhanced cutting ability? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[WearzManySkins]

I would say the mods stack, and yes that could mean closing your eyes and blind firing is a less of a mod. I have seen worse situations, throw in multiple FlaskPaks things can get interesting.

WMS

[Apathy]

If i'm at -7 then I'll happily say "I close my eyes" and just take -6 instead for full darkness.

That seems like a valid option. But don't you also then have to roll using intuition+firearms instead of agility+firearms when blind firing?


I'd say that the worst that visibility modifiers could go would be -6 for blind fire. That said, you could easily rule that modifiers in general could get significantly higher.

• In addition to obscuring vision, does heavy smoke also cause difficulty breathing normally, or irritation to the eyes and mucous membranes?
• Does heavy rain distract your concentration? How about those disorienting spots over your vision from the flash packs?

[Isath]

Smoke and flashing lights can disturb your balance, if you rely on vision - even more so, if you add noise. Also when there is enough smoke it could diffuse the light to a degree, that it would even be hard to hit the light source. In a dark room with light spotted at you, you probably won't be able to make out who or what is behind the source. On the other hand light that is not directly pointed at you can actually help.

There is much to take into account, so the fairest thing one can do is to use the table and not himself be used by the tables instead. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Edit: I wouldn't use intuition instead of agility, else you will have a lot of people that are stronger on the mental attribues start closing their eyes in combat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Even with your eyes closed you will need to have balance, body-control and a steady hand - maybe even more so. Also, while shooting is focused on sight, shutting one sense down, doesn't make you shoot more by perception than before as you perceive less. Walking a rope without sight is still a matter of balance and you cannot perform that much of a feat without sensual perception anyways.

[masterofm]

I'm sorry I think it should only go up to a -6 when shooting at someone at least. A -5 would be best so that blind firing is still a worse option then shooting through smoke and concieled people. If they drop smoke, in darkness, are behind cover, the dude has ruthenium, and have a force 6 spirit cast conceil then you are shooting at a -18. It has the potential to be heavily abused. If someone is a really good perception adept and they cut your ruthenium, spirit conceilment, smoke, ect. why should they then take a -10 to -18 to shoot at them? You know where the person is and yet blind firing gives you a -6 instead of a -10 to a -18. It just doesn't make sense and seems a little foolish to me.

Should you be able to make it impossible for someone to shoot you if the penalties stack? I think stacking penalties can just be abused a little too much to the point where why bother playing SR at that point and just play Doom 3 w/o flashlights, or muzzle flashes, or lights. You would have an easier time hitting the monsters.

[Stahlseele]

Should you be able to make it impossible for someone to shoot you if the penalties stack? I think stacking penalties can just be abused a little too much to the point where why bother playing SR at that point and just play Doom 3 w/o flashlights, or muzzle flashes, or lights. You would have an easier time hitting the monsters.

i basically played it like that . . good headset for surround-sound and then let your ears guide you . . the walls were a bit of a problem though *g*

as for the thread: don't forget that with some eye-ware-stuff you allways apply the lowest modificator . .

[Ravor]

Well I figure that any Runner (Mage or not.) who isn't smart enough to cut out his Spirit-given eyes for a pair of tricked-out cyber deserves to get pasted when the Sec-guards hit the alarm and all of the building's lights start strobing as earblasting elevator music is piped through the intercoms and smoke/spores start pouring through the air.

Plus I like to remind Mages that their Thirdeye is not the "I can always see you." card that I get the impression that some people tend to play it as and stacking vision mods does exactly that. (Please don't get me wrong, I love Mages and my games are actually fairly Mage friendly since I play up the "Magic is largely misunderstood by mundanes." angle, but I also believe that there is nothing wrong with mundane methods being equally valid in countering all but the scariest Mage.)

Of course, remember that I play in low dicepool games, so the tactics that work for me probably won't work for you.