 Do mirrors grant line of sight?, Can you cast a spell at a target in one? |
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 Dec 21 2003, 06:12 AM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029  |
What? C'mon Doc, you've gotta be kidding... granted, FASA/FanPro's made a bunch of errors and such but this seems like it's intentional.
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Dec 21 2003, 06:20 AM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 227 Joined: 18-August 03 Member No.: 5,513 |
How about because you can take retinal mods without replacing your eyes? :wobble:
The optical mag would be great for people with cataracts, just replace that old crusty lens with a new set of lenses that let you see better than when you were born. :cyber: |
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Dec 21 2003, 06:34 AM
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#28
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Hence my use of "bad game design that never got repaired" instead of "genuine mistake." :)
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Dec 21 2003, 07:19 AM
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#29
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I don't know about that. There is a reason for having both designs.
Optical Magnification in the original design was very obvious as a Retinal Modification, as the lenses stuck out of the eyes. They were unobtrusive in Cybereyes, however. Electronic Magnification, on the other hand, is not obvious, no matter what method of implantation. |
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Dec 21 2003, 07:21 AM
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#30
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I was talking magical-wise. I have no problem with there being two options; one is cheaper but costs more Essence, while the other is the other way around. Options are good.
The poor design comes from the fact that, as pointed out many times in the past, that magicians can use cybereyes just fine (because they're "bought with Essence") but electronic magnification doesn't get the same benefit despite the same logic being in place. |
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Dec 21 2003, 07:22 AM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
Woah, wait a tick... like go-go-gadget binoculars? They actually telescoped out of the eye? That's gotta be an icebreaker at parties... sheesh.
Here I always thought that the extra Essence (for Optical Mag) was what you paid for the ability to cast spells through them. I figured that Electronic Mag was good for the non-Awakened and Optical for the spellslingers. |
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Dec 21 2003, 08:14 AM
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#32
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I know what you were meaning. I just don't have a problem with it the way it is. |
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Dec 21 2003, 01:49 PM
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#33
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
What if the explanation was they found a way to make cybereyes that don't ever turn the signal into electricity? Somehow they recreat the retina and change it back to the neural impulses directly. Then it doesn't matter that the mage paid for it with essence or not, it just never goes through an electronic device (barring the fact that the neural impulses are electric, or maybe that's the whole point... You're allowed to use electricity in the main part of the cyber eye because they go straight into neural impulses, something like that.) Then your electronic magnification is built on top of that and translates it into unacceptable electronic signals, while your cybereye doesn't.
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Dec 21 2003, 03:54 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 400 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 825 |
They also made an issue of the image quality; electrical gave you a grainy image, just like the aforementioned digital zoom on a camera. Granted, they never gave any rules for it, but I almost always had my characters, magic or non, take the optical for that reason. |
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Dec 21 2003, 04:58 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
Okay, I knew I wasn't nuts:
That's a direct quote from the basic book, p. 300. Emphasis mine. |
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Dec 21 2003, 05:15 PM
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#36
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Yes, we know that's the rule. What we're discussing is why it makes slightly less than no sense whatsoever. ~J |
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Dec 21 2003, 05:17 PM
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#37
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Target Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 18-December 03 Member No.: 5,917 |
That does sort-of make sense. Optical magnification would be be like looking through binoculars, or essentially the same as looking through a window. It doesn't really enhance your sight anyway. Electronic magnification doesn't strictly enhance your sight either, but it would be like looking at a photograph of a person and casting the spell on the real person. The former sounds like it might work, the latter seems obviously wrong.
I don't think image quality would be a big issue, with the way they're going now in 50 years your average pocket camera could have far better resolution than the human eye. As far as casting through cybereyes / mirrors / etc. the whole LOS seems like a big grey area. Like, what if you got a silver-coated coat - a mage looking at you would see his own reflection. |
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Dec 21 2003, 05:23 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
I know, I just wanted to post the quotation so that: A) Everyone was on the same page (literally and figuratively); B) I could prove (to myself, mostly) that I wasn't completely nuts :silly:;
Screw that--based on the "logic" (and I use that term loosely) governing optical and electronic magnification, thermographic vision should not grant LOS. |
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Dec 21 2003, 06:24 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 156 Joined: 1-September 03 Member No.: 5,565 |
What if the thermo is natural like if you're a dwarf/troll?
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Dec 21 2003, 06:46 PM
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#40
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
Natural vision is, well, natural. It works fine, no matter what portion of the spectrum you're using. The issue is only with artificial enhancements. And, IIRC, therm cyber mods explicitly work, despite the apparent contradiction with the treatment of electronic magnification. Therm goggles won't, though. It's another good reason to be a dwarf sorcerer... cast spells in the dark without the Essence/Magic hit of getting cyberware mods. |
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Dec 21 2003, 07:36 PM
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#41
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Target Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 18-December 03 Member No.: 5,917 |
There's no reason for Low Light vision to work if thermo doesn't. (again, only referring to cyber/artifical enhancements, not natural) The low-light camera is going to pick up the faint light that they would have a hard time seeing otherwise, amplify it, and shows that to the user. It would work is a very similar way to how Thermo picks up IR light, converts it to equvalent visible light, and shows that to the user.
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Dec 21 2003, 07:42 PM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
Yeah, natural vision always works.
I'm trying to find all of the references to magicians and cybernetic vision and so far I've got nothing. In the Big Basic Book, on page 299 (under the heading Cybereyes), there's no mention of magicians at all. On page 300, under both Low-Light and Thermographic, there's likewise no reference to spellcasting or line-of-sight issues. In fact, the only mention of magicians in that section is under the Vision Magnification header (also on page 300). I'll continue to look in both the basic book and other supplements. |
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Dec 21 2003, 09:22 PM
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#43
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
Might be worth noting that the Combat Mage archetype in SR2 had cybereyes with therm and low-light built in.
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Dec 21 2003, 09:47 PM
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#44
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
Thermo isn't a vision. It is a vision mod. You have to be seeing the target through some other kind of vision. You can't just have 'thermal' vision and nothing else. In cyber eyes the thermal image is overlayed on top of your normal vision. And you arn't seeing the heat. Your seeing a visual representation of it, created by a computer. So the logic does follow, you cant target someone who isn't there.
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Dec 22 2003, 04:23 AM
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#45
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Target Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 18-December 03 Member No.: 5,917 |
Thermo is exactly the same as regular vision. The only difference is that instead of seeing the wavelengths of light humans normally see, it picks up wavelength a few hundred nm longer. A cyber eye for thermo only and one for normal vision only would be virtually indestiguishable unless you looked through them. If you had thermo only eyes you could probably operate just fine, maybe better even for a shadowrunner. You couldn't read newspapers or computer screens, but that guy trying to sneak up on you in the dark alley would look lit up like a chrstmas tree.
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Dec 22 2003, 04:49 AM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 745 Joined: 26-July 03 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 5,029 |
Just to keep you updated: I've found nothing in Man & Machine about vision mods and line-of-sight. :|
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Dec 22 2003, 05:10 AM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 400 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 825 |
How about the "Spell Targeting" section on p.181 of SR3? Specifically, the part that says, "However, optical lenses, mirrors and fiber optics can enhance line of sight, as can cybernetic vision enhancements....Metahuman vision abilities can also enhance line of sight..." Or are you looking for something else? |
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Dec 22 2003, 06:14 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 606 Joined: 17-December 03 Member No.: 5,909 |
this might sound dumb but what is the Ares Viper Slivergun. I dont know much about firearms and cyberware |
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Dec 22 2003, 06:52 AM
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#49
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
It's a weapon in the main sourcebook with rather questionable stats, namely a heavy pistol (instead of a machine pistol) with a 30-round clip full of 9M ammo, burst-fire capabilities, and a silencer (which ignores the fact that silencers are only supposed to work with [semi-automatic and single-shot] firearms), and a Concealability that's way too high for the entire package. Sure, it's based upon a "classic" weapon from cyberpunk fiction, but that doesn't excuse the fact that it just doesn't fit in with Shadowrun's other weapons.
All they really have to do to fix it is to turn it into a machine pistol with a base damage code of 6L and everything would be peachy. But... oh well. |
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Dec 22 2003, 07:31 AM
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#50
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
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