Full Version: Do mirrors grant line of sight?
Just wondering if a mage can cast a spell at a target he sees in a mirror.
Fiber optics work too.
Thanks; just discovered it in the BBB too:
| QUOTE |
| "A physical spellcaster can cast a spell at any physical thing he can see unaided by imaging technology. However, optical lenses, mirrors and fiber optics can enhance line of sight, as can cybernetic vision enhancements (they have been paid for with essence)." Page: 181 |
Just remember that it might not work for elemental manipulation spells. Since they travel in a straight path between the caster and the target there can't be anything between the two of them.
I still can't bring myself to accept optical implants allowing line of sight as anything more than a cheap gameplay balance.
Anyway, I'd imagine the fireball or suitable equivalent would just start traveling towards the target, and if a wall is between you and what's you're staring at through a light pipe, well, be prepared to get toasty.
Anyway, I'd imagine the fireball or suitable equivalent would just start traveling towards the target, and if a wall is between you and what's you're staring at through a light pipe, well, be prepared to get toasty.
why wouldn't optical implants work?
edit: er, why don't they make sense?
edit: er, why don't they make sense?
By the by, in theory, with the right setup of mirrors and/or lenses, you could hit someone on another continent. The smart snipers are spell slingers ; )
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| why wouldn't optical implants work? edit: er, why don't they make sense? |
Yeah, same question.
You pay the essence for them, they're a part of you and your pattern.
I always thought that's what the difference was between Electronic Magnification and Optical Magnification: the latter allows spellcasters to use them for line-of-sight acquisition. Eletronic Magnification is cheaper but doesn't work for magic.
Am I out to lunch on this?
Am I out to lunch on this?
The reason electronic mag is out is because they do not have LOS. optical mag is like wearing glasses
| QUOTE |
| toturi Posted on Dec 20 2003, 04:30 PM The reason electronic mag is out is because they do not have LOS. |
Electronic Mag does grant Line Of Sight, actually. But you still cant use it to zap someone w/ a manabolt.
If I were to guess I'd say it samething to do w/ the difference between casting a manabolt at someone thru a pair of glasses (like, on your head) and zapping someone thru a close circut monitor.
Then again, the mage did pay for even the E mag w/ essence. I dunno. I like the rule as it is. It adds flavor, I think.
Logically, none of it should work. you can't wear glasses on the Astral...
Oh, and for the mirror thing, I'd say it would work on everthing but damaging manipulations. As someone else said, if the macial effect starts at the caster and travels in a straight line...Besides that, Dam Manips work differently all together. If theres a bunch of goons hidding behind the next corner and you can smell 'em or whatever, lob a fireball against the far wall. WHOOSH. Crispy Goons....
YAY! the good old "Why won't Electronic Vision Magnification grant LOS?" debait.
Shall I stir the pot by mentioning that thermographic and Low-Light vision cyber mods do grant LOS?
This has been discussed several timeson these forums, I'd advise using the search function. I would look it up myself but I need to go soon.
Mirrors do grant LOS, as do any purely optical systems (lenses ETC) but you can't shoot fireballs through glass or mirrors. I think that even putting a pinhole in the wall of a dark room and looking at the inverted image of the outside world on the far wall would work too.
There's also the question of where a mage shoots fireballs from. Eyes? Hands? Feet? Arse? Can you choose any part of your body? Is it set by the spell formula you know? If hands, do gloves block it?
Shall I stir the pot by mentioning that thermographic and Low-Light vision cyber mods do grant LOS?
This has been discussed several timeson these forums, I'd advise using the search function. I would look it up myself but I need to go soon.
Mirrors do grant LOS, as do any purely optical systems (lenses ETC) but you can't shoot fireballs through glass or mirrors. I think that even putting a pinhole in the wall of a dark room and looking at the inverted image of the outside world on the far wall would work too.
There's also the question of where a mage shoots fireballs from. Eyes? Hands? Feet? Arse? Can you choose any part of your body? Is it set by the spell formula you know? If hands, do gloves block it?
You shoot it with your mind. Kill yaks from 300m with mind bullets.
That's telekinesis, Kyle. Gotta make sure you're high above the mucky-muck when you try that, though.
Fire ball appears where ever the mage decides it does. As long as he has line of sight he/she can make it show up where ever along that line. Just make sure your out side the blast radius.
| QUOTE |
| Fire ball appears where ever the mage decides it does. As long as he has line of sight he/she can make it show up where ever along that line. Just make sure your out side the blast radius. |
Not according to the "Elemenatal Manipulation Spells" section on p182. Glass and other obstructions will impede an elemental spell. The spell creates the effect, or part of it, and then directs it towards the target, just like any ranged attack.
The difference in emag and optical is easy. Emag amplifies an image and then zooms in on it. Take your digital camera with zoom. It doesn't actually zoom in, it takes a sample of the image, blows it up, and reconstructs it digitally for a better image.
Optical mag uses lenses and mirrors to actually bring the light reflected from the target to your eyes.
At least this is why I always have thought that emag didn't work for spellcasters. Your not really seeing the target, your seeing a digital recreation of the target.
Optical mag uses lenses and mirrors to actually bring the light reflected from the target to your eyes.
At least this is why I always have thought that emag didn't work for spellcasters. Your not really seeing the target, your seeing a digital recreation of the target.
Thanks Shadow, that's exactly how I imagined it too. That's why Low-Light works too: it amplifies exisiting light. What about Thermographic? That's a total reconstruction of the image... are you all sure that thermographic goggles / lenses / cybermods allow LOS for a mage?
| QUOTE (Shadow) |
| The difference in emag and optical is easy. Emag amplifies an image and then zooms in on it. Take your digital camera with zoom. It doesn't actually zoom in, it takes a sample of the image, blows it up, and reconstructs it digitally for a better image. |
Yup. I wouldn't make the spell not work however. So long as the spell in question can target objects as well, it will do all of its damage or effect to the view screen that the mage is using to 'snipe' with. Since technically, they'd be able to target what they're seeing (flat image of joe shadowrunner on a view screen)... just not what they think they're targetting (the real joe shadowrunner). That should make for a nice story when they think they're getting away with 1-mile sniping, only to find out that all they did was permanently singe all of the hair off their head and blow out their own eye.
Maybe that's excessive, but in theory it seems to make sense to me. What do you guys think?
I think it's a great way to punish a PC who's been abusing LOS rules and unbalancing the game. Give 'im a warning and if that fails... hell yeah, blow out their cybereye / goggle / viewscreen next time. Serves 'im right.
However, I wouldn't just ambush a well-intentioned PC with this the first time: that strikes me as excessive.
However, I wouldn't just ambush a well-intentioned PC with this the first time: that strikes me as excessive.
Or better yet, have an invincible hit team of grade 20 initiates and cyberzombies go after him. The sheer arrogance of using electronic magnification instead of optical is staggering. MAKE HIM PAY FOR HIS HUBRIS WITH DEATH.
| QUOTE (Shadow) |
| At least this is why I always have thought that emag didn't work for spellcasters. Your not really seeing the target, your seeing a digital recreation of the target. |
If you're looking at it with cybereyes, you're seeing a digital recreation of the target, regardless of what sort of magnification, if any, you're using. If cybereyes can be used for spell targetting in the first place, then any vision mod for which you paid Essence (that being the excuse used to allow cybereyes) should be usable for spell targetting.
Allowing cybereyes with electronic magnification to be used for spell targetting makes sense. Disallowing cybereyes from being used for spell targetting at all makes sense. Allowing cybereyes but disallowing electronic magnification makes no sense.
A rigger mage. Send out the mirror drones to aquire los on the target.
| QUOTE |
| John Campbell If you're looking at it with cybereyes, you're seeing a digital recreation of the target, regardless of what sort of magnification, if any, you're using. |
Okay, what you're saying makes sense--but then why have two different kinds of Image Magnification technology?
Bad game design that never got repaired? The same holds true for things like the Ares Viper Slivergun, too. (And no, let's not go there. I was just using it as an example.)
What? C'mon Doc, you've gotta be kidding... granted, FASA/FanPro's made a bunch of errors and such but this seems like it's intentional.
How about because you can take retinal mods without replacing your eyes? 
The optical mag would be great for people with cataracts, just replace that old crusty lens with a new set of lenses that let you see better than when you were born.
The optical mag would be great for people with cataracts, just replace that old crusty lens with a new set of lenses that let you see better than when you were born.
Hence my use of "bad game design that never got repaired" instead of "genuine mistake." 
I don't know about that. There is a reason for having both designs.
Optical Magnification in the original design was very obvious as a Retinal Modification, as the lenses stuck out of the eyes. They were unobtrusive in Cybereyes, however.
Electronic Magnification, on the other hand, is not obvious, no matter what method of implantation.
Optical Magnification in the original design was very obvious as a Retinal Modification, as the lenses stuck out of the eyes. They were unobtrusive in Cybereyes, however.
Electronic Magnification, on the other hand, is not obvious, no matter what method of implantation.
I was talking magical-wise. I have no problem with there being two options; one is cheaper but costs more Essence, while the other is the other way around. Options are good.
The poor design comes from the fact that, as pointed out many times in the past, that magicians can use cybereyes just fine (because they're "bought with Essence") but electronic magnification doesn't get the same benefit despite the same logic being in place.
The poor design comes from the fact that, as pointed out many times in the past, that magicians can use cybereyes just fine (because they're "bought with Essence") but electronic magnification doesn't get the same benefit despite the same logic being in place.
Woah, wait a tick... like go-go-gadget binoculars? They actually telescoped out of the eye? That's gotta be an icebreaker at parties... sheesh.
Here I always thought that the extra Essence (for Optical Mag) was what you paid for the ability to cast spells through them. I figured that Electronic Mag was good for the non-Awakened and Optical for the spellslingers.
Here I always thought that the extra Essence (for Optical Mag) was what you paid for the ability to cast spells through them. I figured that Electronic Mag was good for the non-Awakened and Optical for the spellslingers.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| I was talking magical-wise. I have no problem with there being two options; one is cheaper but costs more Essence, while the other is the other way around. Options are good. |
I know what you were meaning. I just don't have a problem with it the way it is.
What if the explanation was they found a way to make cybereyes that don't ever turn the signal into electricity? Somehow they recreat the retina and change it back to the neural impulses directly. Then it doesn't matter that the mage paid for it with essence or not, it just never goes through an electronic device (barring the fact that the neural impulses are electric, or maybe that's the whole point... You're allowed to use electricity in the main part of the cyber eye because they go straight into neural impulses, something like that.) Then your electronic magnification is built on top of that and translates it into unacceptable electronic signals, while your cybereye doesn't.
| QUOTE |
| Optical Magnification in the original design was very obvious as a Retinal Modification, as the lenses stuck out of the eyes. They were unobtrusive in Cybereyes, however. Electronic Magnification, on the other hand, is not obvious, no matter what method of implantation. |
They also made an issue of the image quality; electrical gave you a grainy image, just like the aforementioned digital zoom on a camera. Granted, they never gave any rules for it, but I almost always had my characters, magic or non, take the optical for that reason.
Okay, I knew I wasn't nuts:
| QUOTE |
| [Cybernetic vision magnification] comes in electronic and optical versions (the latter are necessary for magicians with cybereyes). |
That's a direct quote from the basic book, p. 300. Emphasis mine.
| QUOTE (Velocity) | ||
Okay, I knew I wasn't nuts:
That's a direct quote from the basic book, p. 300. Emphasis mine. |
Yes, we know that's the rule. What we're discussing is why it makes slightly less than no sense whatsoever.
~J
That does sort-of make sense. Optical magnification would be be like looking through binoculars, or essentially the same as looking through a window. It doesn't really enhance your sight anyway. Electronic magnification doesn't strictly enhance your sight either, but it would be like looking at a photograph of a person and casting the spell on the real person. The former sounds like it might work, the latter seems obviously wrong.
I don't think image quality would be a big issue, with the way they're going now in 50 years your average pocket camera could have far better resolution than the human eye.
As far as casting through cybereyes / mirrors / etc. the whole LOS seems like a big grey area. Like, what if you got a silver-coated coat - a mage looking at you would see his own reflection.
I don't think image quality would be a big issue, with the way they're going now in 50 years your average pocket camera could have far better resolution than the human eye.
As far as casting through cybereyes / mirrors / etc. the whole LOS seems like a big grey area. Like, what if you got a silver-coated coat - a mage looking at you would see his own reflection.
| QUOTE |
| Kagetenshi wrote: Yes, we know that's the rule. What we're discussing is why it makes slightly less than no sense whatsoever. |
I know, I just wanted to post the quotation so that:
A) Everyone was on the same page (literally and figuratively);
B) I could prove (to myself, mostly) that I wasn't completely nuts
;| QUOTE |
| Lilt wrote: Shall I stir the pot by mentioning that thermographic and Low-Light vision cyber mods do grant LOS? |
Screw that--based on the "logic" (and I use that term loosely) governing optical and electronic magnification, thermographic vision should not grant LOS.
What if the thermo is natural like if you're a dwarf/troll?
| QUOTE (Cheese Emperor @ Dec 21 2003, 01:24 PM) |
| What if the thermo is natural like if you're a dwarf/troll? |
Natural vision is, well, natural. It works fine, no matter what portion of the spectrum you're using. The issue is only with artificial enhancements. And, IIRC, therm cyber mods explicitly work, despite the apparent contradiction with the treatment of electronic magnification. Therm goggles won't, though.
It's another good reason to be a dwarf sorcerer... cast spells in the dark without the Essence/Magic hit of getting cyberware mods.
There's no reason for Low Light vision to work if thermo doesn't. (again, only referring to cyber/artifical enhancements, not natural) The low-light camera is going to pick up the faint light that they would have a hard time seeing otherwise, amplify it, and shows that to the user. It would work is a very similar way to how Thermo picks up IR light, converts it to equvalent visible light, and shows that to the user.
Yeah, natural vision always works.
I'm trying to find all of the references to magicians and cybernetic vision and so far I've got nothing. In the Big Basic Book, on page 299 (under the heading Cybereyes), there's no mention of magicians at all. On page 300, under both Low-Light and Thermographic, there's likewise no reference to spellcasting or line-of-sight issues. In fact, the only mention of magicians in that section is under the Vision Magnification header (also on page 300).
I'll continue to look in both the basic book and other supplements.
I'm trying to find all of the references to magicians and cybernetic vision and so far I've got nothing. In the Big Basic Book, on page 299 (under the heading Cybereyes), there's no mention of magicians at all. On page 300, under both Low-Light and Thermographic, there's likewise no reference to spellcasting or line-of-sight issues. In fact, the only mention of magicians in that section is under the Vision Magnification header (also on page 300).
I'll continue to look in both the basic book and other supplements.
Might be worth noting that the Combat Mage archetype in SR2 had cybereyes with therm and low-light built in.
Thermo isn't a vision. It is a vision mod. You have to be seeing the target through some other kind of vision. You can't just have 'thermal' vision and nothing else. In cyber eyes the thermal image is overlayed on top of your normal vision. And you arn't seeing the heat. Your seeing a visual representation of it, created by a computer. So the logic does follow, you cant target someone who isn't there.
Thermo is exactly the same as regular vision. The only difference is that instead of seeing the wavelengths of light humans normally see, it picks up wavelength a few hundred nm longer. A cyber eye for thermo only and one for normal vision only would be virtually indestiguishable unless you looked through them. If you had thermo only eyes you could probably operate just fine, maybe better even for a shadowrunner. You couldn't read newspapers or computer screens, but that guy trying to sneak up on you in the dark alley would look lit up like a chrstmas tree.
Just to keep you updated: I've found nothing in Man & Machine about vision mods and line-of-sight. 
| QUOTE |
| Just to keep you updated: I've found nothing in Man & Machine about vision mods and line-of-sight. |
How about the "Spell Targeting" section on p.181 of SR3? Specifically, the part that says, "However, optical lenses, mirrors and fiber optics can enhance line of sight, as can cybernetic vision enhancements....Metahuman vision abilities can also enhance line of sight..."
Or are you looking for something else?
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Bad game design that never got repaired? The same holds true for things like the Ares Viper Slivergun, too. (And no, let's not go there. I was just using it as an example.) |
this might sound dumb but what is the Ares Viper Slivergun. I dont know much about firearms and cyberware
It's a weapon in the main sourcebook with rather questionable stats, namely a heavy pistol (instead of a machine pistol) with a 30-round clip full of 9M ammo, burst-fire capabilities, and a silencer (which ignores the fact that silencers are only supposed to work with [semi-automatic and single-shot] firearms), and a Concealability that's way too high for the entire package. Sure, it's based upon a "classic" weapon from cyberpunk fiction, but that doesn't excuse the fact that it just doesn't fit in with Shadowrun's other weapons.
All they really have to do to fix it is to turn it into a machine pistol with a base damage code of 6L and everything would be peachy. But... oh well.
All they really have to do to fix it is to turn it into a machine pistol with a base damage code of 6L and everything would be peachy. But... oh well.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| (which ignores the fact that silencers are only supposed to work with [Semi-Automatic and Single Shot] firearms) |
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