What do you think of Technomancers? Options

[Fuchs]

But it is magic. There's no technological explanation for it and there's the typical "cyberware hurts your magic/resonance" stuff. Plus there's all the spirit/sprite similarities.

It just doesn't sit well with my view of the matrix, and the world of Shadowrun. The matrix should require tech to access.

If I did TMs, I'd surely not make them the mages that they are in the book, I'd make them a (maybe unwitting/unwilling) host for AIs, maybe a sort of cell of a hidden hive mind - and they'd require some tech/cyberware to connect to the matrix. And they surely would not lose any power just for having more of what makes the matrix itself, meaning tech, in their bodies.

[sunnyside]

But it is magic. There's no technological explanation for it and there's the typical "cyberware hurts your magic/resonance" stuff. Plus there's all the spirit/sprite similarities.

It just doesn't sit well with my view of the matrix, and the world of Shadowrun. The matrix should require tech to access.

If I did TMs, I'd surely not make them the mages that they are in the book, I'd make them a (maybe unwitting/unwilling) host for AIs, maybe a sort of cell of a hidden hive mind - and they'd require some tech/cyberware to connect to the matrix. And they surely would not lose any power just for having more of what makes the matrix itself, meaning tech, in their bodies.

Alternatively you could have them grow their own bioware or somesuch that also uses up essence. This would keep the game balance and keep them different than regular hackers.

[NightmareX]

But it is magic. There's no technological explanation for it and there's the typical "cyberware hurts your magic/resonance" stuff. Plus there's all the spirit/sprite similarities.

The Resonance realms and quests are the biggest issue for me. I can - kinda - get around it by assuming that the realms don't truly exist but are in fact projections of the techno's own mind (essentially a meditative exercise) in order to make sense of things they can't rationally understand (like recovering deleted files - something that is possible even these days I guess with the proper tools?). Of course I haven't read the entirety of Unwired yet so that might fall flat.

If that be the case though, I've thought of a contingency plan to "deal with" technos in my campaigns rather than just hand waving them away - I call it the Ghostline virus, basically a virus of unknown origin that infects OSs and reacts catastrophically with anything Resonance based. I'm still working on the idea though so that's about as far as I've got. I'll post more when I've developed the idea further, any thoughts or help would be highly welcome though.

[Fuchs]

I guess I could handle TMs if they were done less "magic, but in the matrix and called resonance" style. The difference between hackers and TMs would be like between Wizards and Sorcerers in D&D 3E - a fireball is cast the same by either, but there are some differences in fluff and handling.

If TMs were fluff wise actually possessed by some AI-like parasite/virus, which granted them "apparent spontaneous programs" which were in reality actual programs handled by the AI hidden in his headware and brain that would make more sense to me.

But I really don't want magical matrix stuff.

[GreyBrother]

I agree with the first Paragraph, but disagree with the second.

But the resonance is mysterious and you can actually explain it with some AI Master and prove Clockwork right (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

My favourite explanation? It's a kind of evolution. Not a biological evolution, just some way of "synchronisation" between the Matrix and the Human Brain. It's a bit pseudomysterious, but everything unexplainable starts as a mystery.

[Wesley Street]

That's a similar explanation to what I use as well. Though this does pertain to biology, evolutionary theory states that change often comes around in fits and starts. I see technomancers as the next step in a race of people who are constantly bombarded by information, be it a rapid biological change or a rapid sociological one. To put it in simpler terms, my parents can't believe that I can both work and surf the Internet at the same time and still be productive. And I'm astonished as to how Generation Y/Z can listen to music, talk on the phone, watch TV, and study all at the same time.

[NightmareX]

Those are great explanations but they don't fully explain Resonance realms (or do they)?

[KitsuneKaze]

My interpretation of them losing resonance due to cyber was stems from my engineering. Inside your skull is a horrible place for an antenna. It kind of implied to me that they utilised they're whole nervous system as an antenna array.

Sprites, to me are unconscious reflections of the TM's mind, forced into a very organic program. They can go free, etc etc.


As for resonance realms, that I didn't like, though some concepts with quantum computing and and entanglement goes a long way towards some interesting concepts.

[Fuchs]

I'd not explain matrix metaplanes, I mean, resonance realms.

[GreyBrother]

Resonance Realms... My character believes that they were always there since humanity first got a grasp on concepts like networking information, sharing data through any means and communication. Humanity just aquired technology to "travel" or "access" an In-Between-World = The Matrix.

But that's quite speculative, although a fun idea for him to play, since he is quite confident, that technomancer-like-characters were around for some time, but did express themselves after the birth of the internet for the first time. Roughly.

As for losing Resonance when you lose essence... that's easy to explain. The antenna of a technomancer is his nervous system. Otaku in SR3 got mali when they installed and used headware and their otaku-abilities and otaku didn't need the sophisticated nervous system a technomancer uses, so they could use some 'ware. The nervous system is everywhere, so if you cut out a piece of flesh, your nervous system get's disturbed too and therefore you lose Resonance.

Sprites could be those "random code fragments" what they talked about in iRobot. Same goes for Paragons. They could be a cumulative persona for various things on the net. Paragons are the prime example here with guys like Shooter, Echelon, Snuff and Alias.

[Fuchs]

I hate the idea that TMs do not need technology to access technology.

[GreyBrother]

You may call it bioengineering then (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Fuchs]

No. I'll simply not use TMs, or if so, make them cyberware-dependent.

[Cyntax]

I like my little Otaku.

[Not of this Worl...]

I like my little Otaku.

Yeah, and one of the major advantages was that any Gm could decide if their powers were Mystical or Technical in origin.

The lack of delineation between the two was one of the reasons I disliked late 2nd edition (Where the rules for everything were silly and just treated everything like magic). You also can't convince me that the rules for SR4 are any kind of improvement when you bring up Technomancers versus Otaku (or the Matrix in general for that matter).

But seriously for the other side, in what way are Technomancers better than Otaku whether as a plot device, NPC, or PC?

[Wesley Street]

Those are great explanations but they don't fully explain Resonance realms (or do they)?

The human mind interpreting machine code as a religious/spiritual experience.

Computer bits make a character code --> Character code makes a program --> Programs make a system --> Overlapping and connected systems make the Matrix --> Where bits of broken code (like junk DNA) join up with other bits of broken code and half-working programs and systems to make new and "alien" programs, systems and experiences you get the Resonance Realms. It's like a Mutant Internet where the beauty is in the chaos of it all.

Um, yeah, I design and code websites all day. *cough* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/upsidedown.gif)

[Icephisherman]

I like them because they're another option aside from hacker characters. I like that they tried to differentiate them from your normal hackers but it feels that they couldn't find a shoehorn to make them fit and used a crowbar instead. So it feels a bit forced and sometimes uncomfortable.

I understand why ware and resonance don't play nice because technos would just be hackers with ware. This way they end up as modified spellslingers that use "programs" instead of immolating the opposition.

I don't like sprites. Or rather, I believe that they are broken. If they weren't free to summon (minus the time) they'd be more balanced. Play an elf, grab that high charisma stat and up to eight (or nine with exceptional attribute) and you'll never have to fail a matrix skill roll ever again. Or dump machine sprites into cyberware or guns or cars or planes or whatever and you'll never fail there either. Not to mention that with unwired you could actually send them out into the matrix to make nuyen for you each month starting at 10k each. I'll never, ever tell my players about that.

I think the reason that I love/hate them the most though is because they are completely nuyen independent. Since spoofing lifestyles came out you can actually run one almost for free after food and gas. They don't buy cyberware, they don't have to pay for their lifestyle, they aren't heavy into guns, they don't need any tailsmongering or summoning materials. So their cred can snowball. So all of a sudden dropping 10k in cred when that would break any other shadowrunner's bank screws with me. The only thing that I could possibly think of that they need money for is to get teaching for new complex forms.

Of course, they can always just double as a rigger with sub par piloting and gunnery skills and make up for it by having lots of machine sprites.

I like the choice that technomacers offer. I just hate that they are incredibly broken and in the wrong hands are completely game breaking.

[ravensmuse]

I always liked Synner's take on it: magic adapts. Technology has become a major part of our lives. So magic adapted. Thus you get the otaku (UGE) and then Technomancers (Goblinization). Though I still like cyberkinetic as the better term.

And I'm sorry, "hacker adept" always struck me as a cheesey way to go about things. "I'm the master of my own body, so I'm going to stick wires in my brain and hack away!" Riiiiight. And you're not doing it because you can up your atts, right?

[GreyBrother]

But seriously for the other side, in what way are Technomancers better than Otaku whether as a plot device, NPC, or PC?

"Should they be better?" is my counter question here.
Because i don't think that Technomancers aren't that much thought through in their starting development. I think it was more a "Well, there are the Otaku, how will they develop?" and the writers just made them 1:1 like Hackers and gave them some specials.
I like them how they are and i love playing them, but the taste is a bit... like food from the last three days turned into a new lunch. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Wesley Street]

Technomancers. The cold pizza of Shadowrun archetypes.

[Not of this Worl...]

"Should they be better?" is my counter question here.
Because i don't think that Technomancers aren't that much thought through in their starting development. I think it was more a "Well, there are the Otaku, how will they develop?" and the writers just made them 1:1 like Hackers and gave them some specials.
I like them how they are and i love playing them, but the taste is a bit... like food from the last three days turned into a new lunch. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Yes they should be better. If you're going to rip a "character class" out of a game and replace it in a new edition then you should make sure it is an improvement.

In my opinion the decision was made to replace Otaku (And many other things) before seeing if they worked out better could actually be improved on.

and other than being in the Matrix and using computer skill, Otaku didn't play at all like Deckers. Otaku had different skills and abilities and primarily improved through Karma. Deckers had one skill and depended mostly on programs and improved primarily through acquiring better gear. The Decker could be as kick butt in the real world or more than in the Matrix. Otaku were incredible and better than most Deckers in the Matrix, but were physically weak kids in the real world. Everything depends on how it is played, but in my experience Otaku and Deckers were very, very different.

[GreyBrother]

What you said sounds to me like the Hacker/TM Relationship. Please enlighten me the differences here. I'm curious.

[Not of this Worl...]

What you said sounds to me like the Hacker/TM Relationship. Please enlighten me the differences here. I'm curious.

The difference is that Otaku were far better developed both in game mechanics and story background.

I'm not going to go into the differences between different elements of 4th edition because I'm not an expert and I know just enough about the edition to know I don't want to be one.

But one glaring difference is in the wireless mechanics themselves. Otaku were weak in the physical world, but a Technomancer... well he can hack your cyberware, your guns, your car, etc all just while standing there staring at you. If an Otaku kid was in a street fight then he pretty much already lost. The Matrix has lost that technological and futuristic feeling to me in 4th edition and now is just that "Other Astral Plane" where people mystically connect to it and from there to electronic things you'd never hook up to a network.

Yes in 3rd edition you had radio commlinks, satellite uplinks, and could hack all kinds of things that were connected to the Matrix... but you didn't have techno-mystics staring at someone and turning the lights off unless it was real magic.

Shadowrun was where Man met Magic & Machine, now it is more like Shadow: The Running where Man meets Machine-Magic.

I'll end this again by asking my original question which didn't get answered: In what way are Technomancers better than Otaku?

[Cain]

Yes they should be better. If you're going to rip a "character class" out of a game and replace it in a new edition then you should make sure it is an improvement.

In my opinion the decision was made to replace Otaku (And many other things) before seeing if they worked out better could actually be improved on.

and other than being in the Matrix and using computer skill, Otaku didn't play at all like Deckers. Otaku had different skills and abilities and primarily improved through Karma. Deckers had one skill and depended mostly on programs and improved primarily through acquiring better gear. The Decker could be as kick butt in the real world or more than in the Matrix. Otaku were incredible and better than most Deckers in the Matrix, but were physically weak kids in the real world. Everything depends on how it is played, but in my experience Otaku and Deckers were very, very different.

What you said sounds to me like the Hacker/TM Relationship. Please enlighten me the differences here. I'm curious.

Otaku weren't the karma sinks that TM's are. They could improve with cyberware as well as karma, putting them on a more even footing. I don't have Unwired; but as written in the base book, TM's have to spend BP's like crazy in order to keep up with a similar decker. That means they're weaker in many other areas, not just physically. For example, otaku could take cyber without taking a hit to their matrix abilities. That meant an otaku could eventually add combat cyberware, making them a force in physical combat. They could also add skillwires, which would make up for their deficiencies in other areas. TM's cant do any of that without losing matrix abilities.

Otaku could start with a Computer skill of 8, and higher mental attributes than anyone else of their metatype. While the meaning of this difference changed between editions, the end result was that they were very, very powerful in the matrix right out of the box, certainly better than a comparably-built decker. The higher mental attributes meant a better cyberdeck-equivalent, and added to the hacking pool; combined with a higher skill, that meant you had more dice to roll. A well-built starting TM may be roughly equal to a decent SR4 decker in the matrix, and could easily be worse than a well-optimized decker. TM's dice pools tend to come out smaller than an equivalent decker, and their living personas are no match for a custom commlink. They rely on Threading to make up for the difference, but that causes Drain.

Otaku created under the priority system would have just as many skill points as anyone else. They did concentrate a lot of that to get their high Computer skill, but they still had enough to put lots of points into other useful skills. Under the point system, they tended to come out about the same. In SR4, the high BP costs to raise Resonance and buy complex forms means they have less points for *everything* else.

Sprites are where TMs do exceed Otaku. The sheer variety and powers of sprites overwhelm the ability of daemons. What that means, though, is that the summoner-type is a more viable build than a matrix-runner. So, instead of being able to slice through black IC on their own, we have the army of sprites doing it for them.

In my experience, Otaku were the envy of deckers in the matrix, but in turn paid for it with physical frailty. TM's are the sidekicks of deckers, not being quite as powerful in the matrix, but with the ability to provide a useful trick or two. They're also physically frail, however; and they also tend to have narrower skill sets, making them less useful overall. In short, outside of the matrix, an otaku was a liability in physical combat; a TM can be a liability *everywhere*.

[tete]

[gronard on] I hates them! [gronard off] They are ok i suppose but much like ghouls and bizarre metahuman types should be in the companion and not in the main book. The GM should have the option to leave them out.