What do you think of Technomancers? Options

[Ol' Scratch]

To be honest, I'd rather they just kept "decking naked" in the game rather than replacing it with otaku and then technomancers. But I don't mind technomancers conceptually (I hated otaku though; my suspension of disbelief didn't include bringing an 8-year-old kid along on corporate espionage jobs), just their execution.

[Draco18s]

Emphasis mine. It's kind of embarrassing when you prove yourself wrong in the same breath you used to scream out a completely and utterly wrong bit of information.

Excuse me, but this is the point I was getting at:

First of all the skill group is called Cracking, you can't have cracking higher than 4, Hacking can be a 6 with a specialty in exploit

Emphasis mine:

You can't HAVE Skill Rank 6 Hacking at char gen. You get one skill at 6 OR two at 5. Hacking is part of an extremely useful skill group, cough cough, max 4 ranks. Specialty gets you to 6.

Thanks for your input Tsithlis, next time I play a TM I'll keep that in mind (might be a while, the next game I play I'm likely to hit the other half of Runner's Companion for the neat stuff I'm missing out on this time playing a Drake Adept--which'll also let me delve into Augmentation for the first time, lots of stuff in there I keep trying to use and keep having the wrong kind of character).

[Tsithlis]

The first reason is personal taste: I like the strong distinction between magic and machine that has existed since 1st edition. TM's violate that and also bring in the problem of magic people being better than mundanes. Developers have posted here on Dumpshock that TM's are not magic, but despite their protestations, we have a number of heavy-duty reasons why people will believe that they are: the fluff, the mechanics, the ability to do things that cannot be justified by the laws of physics as we know it (most of SR tech is of a "we can't do it" nature rather than a "it can't be done" nature but TM's are squarely in the second category), their ability to do things that cannot be justified by the "laws" of the Matrix as we know it - quests to recover deleted data, etc., the ability to carry out actions that technically adept non-Technomancers cannot, e.g. perceive attributes of the software environment, contact software entities (e.g. sprites). Some of the things can be justified with the bio-computer nervous system explanation but only with effort and sometimes not at all. Quite simply, TM's come across as magic and I don't like magicians dominating magic and technology, both.

My second reason is one of the effect on different players. TM's negate a standard SR archetype - the Hacker - by their very existence. In the rules sense, no mundane hacker, no matter how much they may want to play the archetype of the brilliant programmer / genius / obsessive programmer, will ever be able to beat the TM at what the TM chooses they'll be good at. It doesn't matter as much what the karma costs are, as it does that the territory of "the best" is clearly the TM's. The Hacker is relegated to the jack of all trades. You can play that, but if your preference is to play someone who's good, bad luck - you've just been shown as always second best. Leaving aside the rules, they also make the Hacker less viable simply via fluff. You can be a character that studied programming all your life and knows the Matrix code inside and out, a six year old child can be a TM that will become one with the Matrix in a way that you are forbidden to ever come close to. Quite simply, the existence of TM's makes the Hacker, regardless of game balance, the also ran. I really don't like that.

Knasser

While I do not agree with your stance on hating Technomancers (as I enjoy them alot) I can agree with the fact that you gave clear reasons why. I also agree that some of them make sense. I also do not like the fact that you can just quest into some quasi realistic plane of existence and retrieve data that was deleted from the matrix. So in our games that we play we have removed that aspect of the Technomancer and explained the Virtuakinetic phenomenon as a new form of evolution derived from the ubiquitous nature of radio signals during this period of the sixth world. As I stated earlier Sharks as a species evolved to be able to "see" electromagnetic fields", it dosen't strike me as beyond belief that humans, a species already under constant bombardment by radio signals in the early 2000's, could not evolve a way of interacting with them on a neurological level. The nervous system evolving into a radio antenna that captures radio waves sending them to the brain which are then interpreted by areas of the brain currently dormant and sent to the cerebral cortex to be transferred into visual and auditory data. This I think would solve some of your issues with them feeling magical in some way since they would no longer have access to metaplanes and would have a clear reason as to how they interact with radio signals.

As for your second reason for disliking Technomancers I really can't comment much because I agree with you. The do by their very nature outdo mundane hackers inside the matrix, but with that being said Mike Portnoy outdoes me on drums but that dosen't prevent me from getting up everyday and practicing for hours to be better. Just remember though that only a tiny fraction of a percent of the worlds population became Technomancers after the crash and even less are alive now because of the events that have happened in Emergence. This gives hackers a serious advantage in the area of numbers and can make for a good campaign arc if the TM is just thrashing matrix sites left and right. All that aside Technomancers require a Karma level outside of the realm of a normal campaign to interact in both the Physical and Digital worlds as well as a Hacker can so while they do outshine him inside the matrix, they will likely never fulfill the same role in a team. This giving gaming groups with smaller numbers an option of a multiclassed character while giving slightly larger groups the ability to explore a new phenomenon of the sixth world. When it comes right down to it playing as a hacker or a technomancer will have almost no bearing aside from story value. If your DM wants you to succeed at something you likely will and if he does not then you likely won't... everything else is just fluff.

Thanks for the chance at a civilized discussion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

My second reason is one of the effect on different players. TM's negate a standard SR archetype - the Hacker - by their very existence. In the rules sense, no mundane hacker, no matter how much they may want to play the archetype of the brilliant programmer / genius / obsessive programmer, will ever be able to beat the TM at what the TM chooses they'll be good at. It doesn't matter as much what the karma costs are, as it does that the territory of "the best" is clearly the TM's. The Hacker is relegated to the jack of all trades. You can play that, but if your preference is to play someone who's good, bad luck - you've just been shown as always second best. Leaving aside the rules, they also make the Hacker less viable simply via fluff. You can be a character that studied programming all your life and knows the Matrix code inside and out, a six year old child can be a TM that will become one with the Matrix in a way that you are forbidden to ever come close to. Quite simply, the existence of TM's makes the Hacker, regardless of game balance, the also ran. I really don't like that.

While I agree with you on the fluff end; the karma costs are indeed a factor. By the time a decker is completely maxed out, the TM will still be behind the curve. They require so much karma to become "the best" that it simply will never happen in the course of a normal campaign. Being "the best" on paper doesn't mean much in play, especially when it's some theoretical point that will probably never be achieved.

You know, this gives me an idea. I'm going to start my own thread on this one....

[Fuchs]

"Normal" is relative. I haven't played in any campaign that did not run for years, and where karma didn't accumulate way beyond a few hundred karma.

And the numbers argument is false. We're talking about player characters, and a fictious greater number of hackers doesn't really help the PC hacker rendered obsolete by the magic hacker.

[Ryu]

Balance-wise, the devil is in the Support Operation service. It is way too good, because it permits you to leave the expected range of program ratings. You have to watch the mechanics for Hacking (Stealth), Matrix Combat (any attack program), Spoofing Orders (Spoof), Matrix Perception (Analyse). In effect, the TM can, provided any registered sprite service is available, point at an (indirect) opposed-test matrix rule, and say "is not balanced that way".

Assume there was no such service. No more "+5 to any program rating", and that basically for free. They would still be able to have effective CF ratings around 9-10, and sprites, and paragons, and echos, but pay more than the hacker and forego hacking implants (because the answer is NO!). As compensation I would disconnect Resonance and Essence, because I find that rule counter-intuitive anyway.

(I´m not really concerned about balance between players. My bunch has learned to share the spotlight, even with the totally-not-efficiency-minded RPG newbie. I´m concerned about balance with the rest of the matrix. If I build a "fair" system for a hacker, I can also build a TM that can walk over it without facing a single real challenge. Hacking on the fly + Stealth 12 = any problem is a nail. Hence the previous comment of me as the GM giving input on the "kosher" power level.)

[Cain]

"Normal" is relative. I haven't played in any campaign that did not run for years, and where karma didn't accumulate way beyond a few hundred karma.

There are 30 echoes. In order to buy all of them, you'd have to initiate 30 times. That's, what, over 500 karma or so right there; and that's not including any raises to Resonance, skills, or attributes. (If we just buy all of the echoes, without initiating, it still costs us about 450 karma). I'm too lazy to calculate the exact numbers including Resonance and other raises, but the point remains that by the time the otaku actually becomes a matrix god, we've gone significantly beyond a "normal" campaign, and still well past even a long-running one.

(I´m not really concerned about balance between players. My bunch has learned to share the spotlight, even with the totally-not-efficiency-minded RPG newbie. I´m concerned about balance with the rest of the matrix. If I build a "fair" system for a hacker, I can also build a TM that can walk over it without facing a single real challenge. Hacking on the fly + Stealth 12 = any problem is a nail. Hence the previous comment of me as the GM giving input on the "kosher" power level.)

So set up matrix runs that require more than just stealth. Threading more than one program isn't really that effective. Besides which, how easy it is to thread to rating 12? That's require 18 dice on average, and a starting character can only have 12.

[Earlydawn]

I like technomancers from a thematic perspective a lot, but their gameplay mechanics bother me. I wish they interacted with the matrix in a more arcane way then being a hacker who codes on the fly and takes IC to the brain.

[Draco18s]

So set up matrix runs that require more than just stealth. Threading more than one program isn't really that effective. Besides which, how easy it is to thread to rating 12? That's require 18 dice on average, and a starting character can only have 12.

What would you have him do? Cybercombat? If unskilled the TM would get his ass kicked in two rounds and spend a week in the hospital and not be able to be any better at it later. Encrypt and Decrypt data? You have to find something the TM isn't good at, but has, which is a problem given the optimal build (4 to 6 common hacking programs at rating effective infinity). If they're defaulting they're rolling 5-6 dice, maybe (skill (4 or 5) + Logic (3) - 2).

A technomancer CAN NOT BE a jack of all hacking trades with the standard 400 BP. If you build him as such then he's no good at ALL of it and the game becomes, once again, unfun as you can't hack your way inside a cereal box without invoking the bonuses that make you absurd (because doing so just makes any mission a nail anyway).

[ornot]

I've not finished reading Unwired, especially not the chapter on TMs, so I'm basing my thoughts on the BBB TM.

They are serious karma hogs. Out of the box the hacker is so grotesquely more efficient, and can throw down some serious dice without needing to hyperspecialise at the expense of all other skills. The hacker in my campaign is also the medic and the repair genius, and doesn't make a half bad face (first impression and pheromones FTW). I'm prepared to accept that a thoroughly twinked out TM will be able to PWn in their area of specialisation within the matrix, be it drones or stealth/exploit, but not both. In a nutshell, the mechanics turn me off.

The very concept of TMs I don't object to. I quite like that the Matrix has got kinda weird and wiggy at the same time that everyone is wandering around online all the time. The Matrix is a bit more grungy around the edges, and at the same time more intertwined with meatspace.

I've not had a PC interested in playing a TM, which has worked out quite well for me. When a friend of mine was GMing I played a TM, and got away with some quite amusing stuff, since he was running pretty loose with the rules 'cos it was his first time GMing SR. I didn't do anything that a hacker couldn't have done as well though, and probably better.

[Ryu]

So set up matrix runs that require more than just stealth. Threading more than one program isn't really that effective. Besides which, how easy it is to thread to rating 12? That's require 18 dice on average, and a starting character can only have 12.

CF 5 + Support Operation 5 + Threading 2. Translates to one registered sprite service = any node hacked on the fly, assuming you can get 12 hits, rolling your Exploit pool twice. The part in the bracket was meant under RAW.

[Cain]

CF 5 + Support Operation 5 + Threading 2. Translates to one registered sprite service = any node hacked on the fly, assuming you can get 12 hits, rolling your Exploit pool twice. The part in the bracket was meant under RAW.

Yeah, but that only lasts for 15 seconds. Then you're down to a CF of 7, with a sustaining penalty. Which means, when you add to that the penalty for having a bound sprite, you end up with a net -2 dice.

[Cain]

What would you have him do? Cybercombat? If unskilled the TM would get his ass kicked in two rounds and spend a week in the hospital and not be able to be any better at it later. Encrypt and Decrypt data? You have to find something the TM isn't good at, but has, which is a problem given the optimal build (4 to 6 common hacking programs at rating effective infinity). If they're defaulting they're rolling 5-6 dice, maybe (skill (4 or 5) + Logic (3) - 2).

A technomancer CAN NOT BE a jack of all hacking trades with the standard 400 BP. If you build him as such then he's no good at ALL of it and the game becomes, once again, unfun as you can't hack your way inside a cereal box without invoking the bonuses that make you absurd (because doing so just makes any mission a nail anyway).

You prove my point. An otaku simply cannot be as good as a decker in all things; and by the time he's earned enough karma to exceed the decker, the game is probably over.

[Ryu]

Yeah, but that only lasts for 15 seconds. Then you're down to a CF of 7, with a sustaining penalty. Which means, when you add to that the penalty for having a bound sprite, you end up with a net -2 dice.

1.) I need six seconds, 15 is comfortable.

2.) The plan is to drop stealth to base, after the the deed is done. There should be no alert.

3.) That kind of Stealth really buys you time on hacking attempts, the penalty is nothing. You might suffer a -2 twice, but you get to roll your basic pool another time. Which will likely start at what, 12 dice? I consider +8 dice on Exploit an advantage.

Solution: Tone TMs down to Resonance 4 (only fair under the karma system), or houserule. I would prefer a working houserule, since it could leave more freedom for the player.

[Cain]

1. What happens if you run across a chokepoint or killing jar?
2. That may or may not work, if there's patrolling IC about.
3. Your solution would only give +8 on Stealth, which is only 2 over what a well-built decker would have, anyway. To get that Exploit, they'd need to thead and sustain another program, which would result in no bonus to stealth *and* -2 to the Exploit in relation to a equivalent decker.

Bottom line: except for a handful of super-specialized one-trick-ponies, I have yet to see an Otaku do anything that a decker cannot. Which is the point: they're hardly matrix gods, nor are they likely to ever become so. In fact, on the balance of it all, they're rather inferior to deckers.

[Ryu]

1. No problem for the TM. High-end Chokepoints limit stealthy TMs to two rolls, and stealthy hackers to one. (And my solution is for a baseline TM, want me to bring Paragon, Codeslinger quality, Resonance higher than 6, and sprite ratings higher than 5? We might be talking "at chargen" here)
(Hacking 6 (Exploit +2), Exploit CF 6, Hot-Sim 2, "The Black Hat" +1, Code-Slinger +2 = 19 dice. Or 17 dice per attempt while threading stealth. 34 dice against an analyse 6, firewall 6 node, with a 7% chance of being caught. Possible at chargen.)

2. Patrolling IC isn´t worse for TMs than for hackers. Threading is on the instant you want it, so they actually fare better at avoiding it.

3. Sorry, could have been clearer. See 1). The TM might! have less dice for Exploit, but the full pool (minus sustaining mod for threading stealth) is rolled twice even before there is danger of detection.