I cannot believe there aren't more Vietnam War RPGs, Talk about material that is both suitable and interesting Options

[Platinum Dragon]

Abolutely, but most people won't see eye-to-eye with you on that one. =P

Personally, I prefer the escapism of playing in fantasy / sci-fi over more realistic present-day settings. I just don't find the real world as interesting as made-up ones.

[Backgammon]

Hmm, that actually reminds me of a recent article in The Economist that was talking about how Iraq War films are systematically failing at the box office. Nobody is interested in an unpopular war, it seems. That probably goes for games too then.

[Wesley Street]

I'd also be inclined to believe that Iraq War films are systematically failing at the box office because they're all the same. "Rah-Rah! America!" or "War is Hell". Boring and has been done to death or done better. See Three Kings.

While I don't think a Vietnam War RPG would make for a great game, a game set in that time period could be interesting. You could play a US Soldier, Black Panther Radical, Communist Fifth Columnist, Weather Underground Terrorist, Hippie Rocker, Violent Protester, Drug Guru, Eurotrash Government Agent, Redneck Sheriff... The Vietnam conflict could be one campaign setting to work with. But if the game setting was expanded to fit all the radical change that was occurring around the globe from between say 1965 and 1975, you could get some interesting stories out of it. The Munich Olympics murders in 1972 and the retaliation by the Mossad, Malcom X and the rise of the Nation of Islam, etc.

[Wounded Ronin]

Hmm, that actually reminds me of a recent article in The Economist that was talking about how Iraq War films are systematically failing at the box office. Nobody is interested in an unpopular war, it seems. That probably goes for games too then.

Well, also, a lot of those films are crap. They basically repeat a lot of the literary themes from the Vietnam War, but repeat them poorly. Whereas in school today if you're lucky you can read some of the best cinemographic and literary commentary on the Vietnam War and it gets you all pumped, if you watch films coming out today about Iraq (I'm looking at you, Home Of The Brave), it seems like they're trying to do those Vietnam War stories again except the quality is a lot lower and the characters are not as well done.

(While I was in the Peace Corps I watched some of those films coming out due to boredom, which I probably wouldn't have watched in the US.)

[Wounded Ronin]

One thing I've been looking up on YouTube every now and then are songs from the 60s and 70s which are related somehow to the Vietnam War. Then I found this version of Galveston which I thought was pretty cool: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaMf6ydI-YI&NR=1

[eidolon]

There's Tour of Darkness for Savage Worlds, but yeah, it's more fantasy/alternate reality than it really is a Vietnam RPG. I haven't picked it up yet, so I can't say whether you could just take out the "alternate" stuff and have a Vietnam RPG, but I suppose it might be possible, since you can do that to Deadlands easily enough.

[Wounded Ronin]

In your opinion, do you think that Deadlands would be mechanically better than SR3?

[Wounded Ronin]

Just some more Vietnam War rocking out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gHiR1xeOSs...feature=related

As I read more and more Vietnam War memoirs I learn that the Vietnam War was what it was. It was not the fairy tale version of it told retrospectively by either American political liberals or conservatives. The reality was much more nuanced and complex.

[Chrysalis]

Heh, you do realize that the Vietnam War ended what was began by the Japanese in World War II. The Vietnamese fighting for the freedom to have a nation. Between Japan and America was the French.

Ages ago I ran a campaign set during the First Indochinese War it ran from September 2, 1945 from President Ho declaring independence for the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, until March 1954, when the Viet Minh won the decisive victory against French forces at the gruelling Battle of Dien Bien Phu.

They were all French Foreign Legion soldiers. Most had fought during World War II in some capacity. The big problem was that most of the characters died quite quick. Only two players and characters of the original squad made it through to the end.

The problem I found was how much time it took for me to do research, how much detail I sunk in, and discovering how much it detracted from the game. It was not a fun game to play.

[Wounded Ronin]

Yes, Vietnam has a pretty badass history of military heroes and fighting against foreigners. IF you look at Vietnamese martial arts you can see some Chinese influence and of course at one point in history China was teabagging Vietnam like it did lots of places.

Anyway, I kind of think your players played their characters wrong. Anyone who survived combat in World War II was really fucking hard, given the incredible insanity-defying casualty counts coming out of that war and the tactics that were still centered around flinging lots of soldiers and really big bombs at the enemy. Anyone capable of surviving World War II should have at least a decent shot (relative to others, dumb luck nonwithstanding) of not dying over the course of a given Vietnam campaign IMO.

[Chrysalis]

The players must be playing their characters wrong was amusing.

One died in an ambush as he assaulted a machinegun nest. One died when trying to rescue an officer whose jeep ran into a mine field. Another volunteered to jump with the paratroop battalion south of Dong Khe and work as a diversion. One character was retired due to battle fatigue (player left the city).

[Wounded Ronin]

The players must be playing their characters wrong was amusing.

It's a cool thing to say in the context of RPGs.

One died in an ambush as he assaulted a machinegun nest. One died when trying to rescue an officer whose jeep ran into a mine field. Another volunteered to jump with the paratroop battalion south of Dong Khe and work as a diversion. One character was retired due to battle fatigue (player left the city).

That was some campaign.

[Link]

Heh, you do realize that the Vietnam War ended what was began by the Japanese in World War II. The Vietnamese fighting for the freedom to have a nation. Between Japan and America was the French.

Ages ago I ran a campaign set during the First Indochinese War it ran from September 2, 1945 from President Ho declaring independence for the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, until March 1954, when the Viet Minh won the decisive victory against French forces at the gruelling Battle of Dien Bien Phu.

They were all French Foreign Legion soldiers. Most had fought during World War II in some capacity. The big problem was that most of the characters died quite quick. Only two players and characters of the original squad made it through to the end.

The problem I found was how much time it took for me to do research, how much detail I sunk in, and discovering how much it detracted from the game. It was not a fun game to play.

Sounds interesting, what game system did you use?

Most Vietnam movies focus on the American aspect with a few references to the French bit in We Were Soldiers and Apocalypse Now IIRC (I didn't see Indochine). To reinvigorate the film genre we need a French 'Jean Rambo' figure, perhaps played by Chuck Norris with voice coaching from Steve Martin.

[Chrysalis]

Sounds interesting, what game system did you use?

Most Vietnam movies focus on the American aspect with a few references to the French bit in We Were Soldiers and Apocalypse Now IIRC (I didn't see Indochine). To reinvigorate the film genre we need a French 'Jean Rambo' figure, perhaps played by Chuck Norris with voice coaching from Steve Martin.

GURPS, since that was the best generic gaming system at the time.

Films:

The Quiet American
Diên Biên Phú
Le Crabe Tambour
Le Facteur s'en va en Guerre
Lost Command
La 317ème section

To be honest, I was not fascinated by the movies. I read memoirs.

[Wounded Ronin]

Yeah, Indochine was pretty shoddy and typical effeminite French stuff. Honestly read real memoirs. Vietnam War memoirs kick so much ass I read them whenever I find them.

[Synner667]

Interesting that you want the elements in a Vietnam war setting [military, civilian, political], but don't want those same elements in a WWII setting.

[Chrysalis]

I think our games of WWII would be highly different.

I grew up in Rovaniemi one of the last major towns in Finland as you progress up north. When I was there it had been burned to the ground by the retreating German army. Feelings about Germans was highly negative in a city that only had one building standing after the Germans, and a lot of the area was still littered with WWII memorabilia. We used to collect spent cartridges and links. Occasionally someone found a real treasure like a 20mm cartridge, the best one was a friend of ours found an unspent grenade. We all crowded around to see what would happen when he pulled the pin. I mean if GI Joe uses them we would just need COBRA. Luckily his mother got suspicious when everyone went real silent in his room, stopped us midway and had the police come and remove the explosive device. We were told to hand over our collectibles.

My best friend's grandfather used to serve with the German army all the way to 1945. He came back to Finland in 1947 after being in an internment camp somewhere in west Europe. Won an iron cross too. He was a drunkard and only in the last years of his life did he start making airplanes again (before the war he had been an aircraft designer and continued his job for a while after the war). I know all of this only when he died and we were staying at his place for a week and I rummaged around his bookshelf.

My great uncle flew the flying coffin P-51 Mustangs during the Pacific campaign, while my grandfathers both served in the navy as engineers. One in U.S. submarines another as a volunteer in a submarine hunter in the Canadian navy attached to the British navy.

There was nothing fun about WWII and was not the cavalcade of the victorius American troops as they waltzed their way to Berlin that is the myth pumped out by Hollywood.

[hobgoblin]

War is hell, as they say. I guess thats why i cant find myself enjoying starship troopers for example...

[Wounded Ronin]

I think our games of WWII would be highly different.

I grew up in Rovaniemi one of the last major towns in Finland as you progress up north. When I was there it had been burned to the ground by the retreating German army. Feelings about Germans was highly negative in a city that only had one building standing after the Germans, and a lot of the area was still littered with WWII memorabilia. We used to collect spent cartridges and links. Occasionally someone found a real treasure like a 20mm cartridge, the best one was a friend of ours found an unspent grenade. We all crowded around to see what would happen when he pulled the pin. I mean if GI Joe uses them we would just need COBRA. Luckily his mother got suspicious when everyone went real silent in his room, stopped us midway and had the police come and remove the explosive device. We were told to hand over our collectibles.

My best friend's grandfather used to serve with the German army all the way to 1945. He came back to Finland in 1947 after being in an internment camp somewhere in west Europe. Won an iron cross too. He was a drunkard and only in the last years of his life did he start making airplanes again (before the war he had been an aircraft designer and continued his job for a while after the war). I know all of this only when he died and we were staying at his place for a week and I rummaged around his bookshelf.

My great uncle flew the flying coffin P-51 Mustangs during the Pacific campaign, while my grandfathers both served in the navy as engineers. One in U.S. submarines another as a volunteer in a submarine hunter in the Canadian navy attached to the British navy.

There was nothing fun about WWII and was not the cavalcade of the victorius American troops as they waltzed their way to Berlin that is the myth pumped out by Hollywood.

But why do you assume that a RPG session dealing with World War II must necessarily be Hollywood style instead or historical style?

[Warlordtheft]

I would suggest Beyond Valor (Patrick O'donnel) as a good read to get an idea of what the combat was like. It is an oral history from some of the soldies who served in the paracorps and other elite units in WWII.

While were boastin, my grand father served in the 2nd Infantry division in WWII from Mid december 1944 to the end of the war. He went from belgium through germany and ended up meeting the russian in what is now ithe Czech republic.

[Wounded Ronin]

So, today I decided to go to http://www.ichiban1.org/html/music.htm and try to listen to all the #1 songs of the various years of the Vietnam era. I think part of me wishes to use Vietnam War resources created for the original Operation Flashpoint games to create a musical campaign or something.

Apparently the #1 song for 1960 is Theme From A Summer Place. Wow. Hard to imagine that as a #1 song. I guess that there is a lot that I have to culturally learn about the early 60s. Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mERbQIvgJXs

The #1 song for 1961 is supposed to be Tossin' and Turnin'. I don't think it sounds very interesting musically but some of the lyrics suggest some things to me about lifestyles of the era. "The middle of the night" is described as being late in the context of the song. The song also references a milkman. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghFBvBmXv4E Personally I think Will You Love Me Tomorrow, at #7, is a much more emotionally and historically interesting song because it references recreational sex and therefore demarks something about the transition of recreational sex of being totally taboo to something you could apparently make a hit song about.

1962's # 1 song is Mashed Potato Time. I watched the video and it made my head explode. It seems really really sexual but in an under the table repressed way. The dancers seem to be doing everything they can to make their breasts rock hard up and down. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQBKpV9emKc

Hilariously, I could only find the Japanese version of I Will Follow Him, which is the #1 song for 1963. Heh, even though I'm half Japanese, I don't really speak or understand Japanese, but her accent is probably ridiculous-sounding, since that's what usually happens when singers sing stuff in languages they don't understand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-43tlrBoRk

1964 has Louis Armstrong Hello Dolly as #1. I would have guessed that it came chronologically earlier than some of the other songs I just referenced but I guess I would have been wrong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmfeKUNDDYs

1965 has Satisfaction by the Rolling Stones. I guess it was such a classic that they play it on the radio even now. It must have been so dynamic at the time given how old-fashioned the songs of preceeding years sound in comparison. Personally I like Paint It Black better but that's probably Kubrick's fault. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MejtR81RzCo

What really amazes me is how in 1966 the #1 song was apparently The Ballad of The Green Beret. I think it's much more intelligent than a lot of contemporary country music dealing with the military. It's a cool song, but the fact that it was #1 for this year makes me wonder if 1966 was when the American public began to become more invested in the Vietnam War. Of course I've read a lot of history books but sometimes I wish I could go back in time just to observe how people spoke and acted. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH4-tOqLH94

How the heck is To Sir WIth Love top song for 1967? I hear it and my brain shuts down due to boring. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPoFI7m-cjI

1968 - Hey Jude. Hmm, I don't know if I can have an opinion about The Beatles anymore. I have heard them too much on the radio and my brain kind of went numb to their sound. I think it's weird that people attribute all kinds of negative things to Yoko Ono over some silly experimental album.

1969 - Some song about the Age of Aquarius? In the first place, can someone explain to me what the Age of Aquarius is supposed to be? Secondly, watch the video because it's hilarious. How the hell did anyone ever take this song seriously? Holy holy holy crap, this is 1969 too. I can't imagine anyone playing this song or using it except out of irony: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LANwIgpha7k

1970 is Raindrops Keep Fallin On My Head. Why is that #1? It's mellow, I'll grant, but it's not that interesting. Maybe the general public likes mellow braindead stuff? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRsXHDYXafM

1971 has Joy To the World by Three Dog Night as #1? Is that some kind of direct statement about the war and how everyone should do peace and love or something? Holy crap, check out the long hair and the 'stache: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFypAB7nYGA

1972 is Gilbert O'Sullivan's Alone Again. This is another song I don't get. It just doesn't sound interesting or memorable to me so how could it be #1? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_P-v1BVQn8

1973 finally seems to have a #1 song that seems to deal explicitly with the Vietnam War. According to the website I'm going by this song marked the growth of public awareness about POW-MIA. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NCZ4l8FCFc

Let's see, 1974's top song was...The Way We Were? I just realized I don't know anything about Barba Streisand except what South Park told me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-KPGh3wysw

The final year the page deals with is 1975. And the top song is...Rhinestone Cowboy? Well, I dunno. I guess it's a pretty catchy song. I mean I can't deny that it really sticks in your head. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p8wDhK5LyY

[Kagetenshi]

(I'm looking at you, Home Of The Brave)

According to Wikipedia, Home of the Brave made back 1/24 of its budget in theatres. That's just harsh.

Apparently it somehow made it up to over 1/3 on DVD sales, though.

Regarding I Will Follow Him, the accent is pretty extreme. I'm not sure I'd call it "ridiculous", though; the little bit I listened to just had her pronouncing it as if it was English, so it was deeply wrong but not American-trying-to-fake-the-accent-without-any-idea-what-they're-doing absurd or anything. It doesn't even sound like she tries, which is probably for the best.

Edit: regarding Age of Aquarius, the actual age is supposed to be a golden age that's going to start sometime in the next thousand years or so, moving from the conflict of the age of Pisces into the understanding and cooperation of Aquarius. As for the music, you just don't have enough LSD in your system.

~J

[hobgoblin]

about the only one i connect to vietnam is the stones one, but that only shows that i get my cultural context via movies i guess...

[DWC]

Raindrops is probably the #1 song of the year because it was featured in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, which came out at the tail end of 1969.

[Wounded Ronin]

Another song I really like is Jimmy Webb's version of Galveston. Supposedly Webb wasn't referencing the Vietnam War, but instead the Spanish-American War. However, the song came out in 1969, and Webb's style is kind of slow and introspective. So in my opinion maybe he said it was about the Spanish American War to avoid controversy, but can we really believe that he was all contemplative and morose about a historical war instead of about the one that was taking place at the time?

In any case Glen Campbell had a more upbeat version that was supposedly more popular, but it doesn't sound as cool to me as this serious sad Webb version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfYJKpLX1xw