Question On Bows, And The Firing Rates Thereof Options

[hobgoblin]

indeed, iirc the one free action pr character pr initiative number is how it was all the way up to SR4, so the sudden change (with the rest of the combat system carrying over more or less unchanged) makes for potentially weird situations. if synner or someone else could come online and clear this up, or maybe dump something into the faq (even tho the answers there just as often makes things worse), that would be nice (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[DamienKnight]

Yeah, a clarification would be good. From the verbiage they do not necessarily allow only one free action per turn. They say they can be taken on your turn or after it. Its really hard to imagine they would want to limit it to once per pass.

[DTFarstar]

*shrug* I prefer the one free action per person per initiative pass myself. While it ends with IP one people being kind of slow and really having to chose their actions, I would prefer that people with 3 or 4 IPs not get, we will use your example of an initiative of 12 though that is low for someone with 4 IPs, 48 free actions over the span of 3 seconds. Keep in mind that all the things you were referring to above were supposed to be happening in approximately .75 seconds.

Chris

[FlashbackJon]

Yeah, a clarification would be good. From the verbiage they do not necessarily allow only one free action per turn. They say they can be taken on your turn or after it.

Th e acting character declares his actions for the Action Phase. He
may take two Simple Actions or one Complex Action. Alternately, the
character can choose to delay his action until a later Action Phase in
that Combat Turn (see Delayed Actions, p. 134).
Th e character may also declare one Free Action during either this
Action Phase or on any subsequent Action Phases in the Combat Turn.
Likewise, any character who has already acted in the Combat Turn
prior to this Action Phase and still has his Free Action left may declare
it at this point if he chooses.

Its really hard to imagine they would want to limit it to once per pass.

I cannot think of a good reason why they were would want it more than once per pass, and such a reason has yet to be presented in this thread.

In your elaborate example, you're missing one essential point. Despite the linear nature of tabletop initiative, actions are intended to be occurring nigh-simultaneously, in a series of staggered three-second spans. You're suggesting that it's entirely feasible for a character to walk, make two shots, eject his clip, drop his gun, participate in melee combat with several assailants, and then drop to the ground all within the same three second timeframe.

Hopefully we shouldn't need to expound on why this is unreasonable.

Obviously, the nature of the system pigeonholes a wide variety of actions into a single classification ("Free Action"): mentally pushing a button and speaking a short phrase don't require the same time or effort by any means, but they do all fit the bill of "something I can easily do (within three seconds) whilst doing something else (my simple or complex actions)."

[hobgoblin]

ah, page 132, first column, "declare actions".

of all the places to have that spelled out?

and rereading the opening of "free actions" on page 135 backs that up, but with less words (and therefor being more open to interpretation).

at least for old hats like me, that have 2-3 version under ones belt, stuffing it in the "combat turn sequence" makes it very likely to be missed, as i know the SR combat sequence by heart, damn it!

[DamienKnight]

we will use your example of an initiative of 12 though that is low for someone with 4 IPs, 48 free actions over the span of 3 seconds.

Yes I agree, if you are unreasonable as a DM, and your players are unreasonable, and you allow them to do unreasonable things, then the results would be unreasonable. Strong point.

My group does an ok job of using common sense. If a Krav Maga player decided to quick draw and drop 24 grenades, I would tell him no. I cannot think of any reasonable situation where a DM would allow this. Rules are there to help us make the game more realistic, not to lock us into an unreasonable unreality. If I allow players to take a free action on each initiative number, I am going to put a reasonable limit on how many actions they take.

You're suggesting that it's entirely feasible for a character to walk, make two shots, eject his clip, drop his gun, participate in melee combat with several assailants, and then drop to the ground all within the same three second timeframe.

No, that is not what I am suggesting. Here is my point:

The rules allow you to walk, make two shots, eject your clip, then participate in melee combat with several assailants and dodge multiple bullets. Unless you are going to remove the parry and dodging mechanics, all of that is allowed.

What I am saying is, if you are allowing ALL of that, how does it make sense to tell the player 'sure, you can swing your arm to dodge, then dive roll to the side, then duck, then block a kick.... but if you want to add in dropping your gun or falling prone, NO NO NO, youve clearly taken it too far'. That is the very definition of rediculous.

If I can swing my arm to block an attack, I can relax my fingers to drop a gun.

If I can dodge bullets from three different directions, surely I can fall to the ground.

You did clarify the statement in the rules fairly well though, and yes, it DOES seem like their rules are suggesting that players get one free action per IP.

My question is then, how can I tell my player yes to dodging, blocking, running, and NO to dropping a gun or falling down? The underlying theme in the rulebooks is that all rules should be examined by a group and used only where they make sense and make the game more fun. In this situation, it doesnt seem like they are achieving that.

[Tarantula]

My question is then, how can I tell my player yes to dodging, blocking, running, and NO to dropping a gun or falling down? The underlying theme in the rulebooks is that all rules should be examined by a group and used only where they make sense and make the game more fun. In this situation, it doesnt seem like they are achieving that.

Because then you get some jackass with krav maga saying "i want to quickdraw and drop all 50 of my grenades"

[DamienKnight]

Because then you get some jackass with krav maga saying "i want to quickdraw and drop all 50 of my grenades"

Please refer to my prior comment on that:

Yes I agree, if you are unreasonable as a DM, and your players are unreasonable, and you allow them to do unreasonable things, then the results would be unreasonable. Strong point.

My group does an ok job of using common sense. If a Krav Maga player decided to quick draw and drop 24 grenades, I would tell him no. I cannot think of any reasonable situation where a DM would allow this. Rules are there to help us make the game more realistic, not to lock us into an unreasonable unreality. If I allow players to take a free action on each initiative number, I am going to put a reasonable limit on how many actions they take.

[Tarantula]

Ok, let me amend that. He'll say "but I want to quickdraw and drop a grenade for every action he took. So one grenade for the 2 shots fired. Another for every 2 attacks defended against. Another for every 2 free actions afterwards. Oh, and he walked too, honestly, walking around is a lot harder than pulling a grenade out isn't it? So for every step he took that should be another one, right?"

Once one guy gets it by, the others will say "but they're all free actions, and he got that many".

[jago668]

That is when I say, "Get up and leave the table, you are not in my group anymore." You want to discuss something after the game that is fine, but when I make a call in the game that is it until we are done for the evening. I am quite the despot about things when we are actually running.

[Tarantula]

That is when I say, "Get up and leave the table, you are not in my group anymore." You want to discuss something after the game that is fine, but when I make a call in the game that is it until we are done for the evening. I am quite the despot about things when we are actually running.

I realize that, but if in combat turn one, samurai 1 goes, and takes say, 10 actions total (shoot, shoot, walk, dodge 5 times, drop gun, go prone) would you say that a krav maga guy couldn't take a complex action to run, (equivilent of the 2 shoot actions, and then spend the other 8 free actions on readying and dropping grenades as he runs around?

[jago668]

Defending doesn't take up a free action. So why would they count? So I'd let him get away with 2 grenades. If he really wanted more I'd let him spend a point of edge to get 2 more out.

[Tarantula]

Defending was used in the examples as why it was unreasonable to only allow one free action per pass.

[jago668]

Well, the thing is. There are certain decisions made for game balance that have nothing to do with "real life". So trying to use those arguments for game mechanics is a bit silly in the first place.

Myself I tend to stick pretty close to the rules. However I am not opposed to an extra free action now and again. Like speaking an extra phrase or something along those lines.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

In my opinion, all of these free actions require too much attention for one combat phase. And none of them require enough attention to take up a full pass. And I include defending, and the other automatic actions. Damien, I agree that what you describe isn't completely but having permissive rules leaves them open to abuse. I prefer to leave things looser.

Let me just throw out a few ideas for house rules...

1. One free action every five phases. Or three.

2. Defending and dodging counts as a free, and you can only do one of them per pass. That leaves you open for all of your players holding their attacks for at once.

3. Bump some free actions up to simples. Like "ready weapon"

4. Divide some free actions into several free actions. Like, (1) pull a grenade off your bandolier, (2) grab the pin, (3) drop it. Or (1) pull an arrow from your quiver (2) apply it to the bow and string. Then a simple to aim and release. Or (1) letting my legs go limp so I fall to the ground (2) trying not to get hurt on the way down... oops, too late. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

*shrug*

[Tarantula]

Ready weapon IS a simple action, its through the benefit of krav maga that it drops down to a free action.

[DamienKnight]

It seems to me that not all free actions were created equal, and the Krav Maga rule really causes an issue. Normally free actions are not very abusable (you can only drop prone once, it takes an action to get back up... and you can only drop something once, takes an action to draw it back out), and its not until you can quickdraw on a free that it becomes an issue. In my game we are going to house rule Krav Maga and say instead of making quick draw a free action, it will work like the Phys Ad quick draw (use quick draw rules on any item).

I think Free actions need to be used as a 'Play it by ear' kind of rule. Dropping prone, dropping an item, ejecting a clip... I will never tell a player no on that (unless they have not acted yet). If they do all of those things and speak a phrase, they may be pushing it, but not to any great exploit.

[ShadeRavnos]

I think Free actions need to be used as a 'Play it by ear' kind of rule. Dropping prone, dropping an item, ejecting a clip... I will never tell a player no on that (unless they have not acted yet). If they do all of those things and speak a phrase, they may be pushing it, but not to any great exploit.

One thing that you have to remember is that the inititive rules for any game make it seem like the action is taking place seperately when in fact it's all pretty much happening at the same time in "real time". And if you think that you can do all those things in 3 seconds of time, you sir are a god.

And as was stated before in this topic, it is only one free action per pass per PC. The RAW is clear on that.

BBB pg 135(4th printing) The Action Phase

The character has many options
to choose from: fire a gun, cast a spell, activate a computer
program, and so on. Each of these is classified as one of
three types of actions a character can take: Free, Simple, and
Complex. A character can take either two Simple Actions
or one Complex Action during his Action Phase. In addition,
each character may take one Free Action at any point
in the Initiative Pass (either during his own Action Phase or
at any later time).

Not syaing that you can't run your game how you want. Just wanted to clear up the confusion on that.

[DamienKnight]

One thing that you have to remember is that the inititive rules for any game make it seem like the action is taking place seperately when in fact it's all pretty much happening at the same time in "real time". And if you think that you can do all those things in 3 seconds of time, you sir are a god.

Then call me Zeus, because I think I could fall down, drop whatever is in my hand, and think the thought 'eject' (the effort it takes to eject a clip with a smartlink) in LESS than 3 seconds. Do I need to record a video? Seriously though, falling down and dropping something at the same time... not talking about an olympic effort here. But we are talking about runners who may have olympic grade skills with artificially enhanced physical abilities... dropping something and falling prone shouldnt be too tough for them.

And as was stated before in this topic, it is only one free action per pass per PC. The RAW is clear on that.

Ill refer to my previous post:

You did clarify the statement in the rules fairly well though, and yes, it DOES seem like their rules are suggesting that players get one free action per IP.

I am not currently arguing that the rules say anything else, I am saying the rules are unreasonable.

[Tarantula]

Damien, i'd love to see you fire a 10 round full auto burst, then think "eject clip" drop the gun, and drop prone all inside of 3 seconds.

I don't care how you're aiming for the burst, cause you don't have super awesome skill, just try to keep it pointed in a general area.

Oh, and duck and bob a weave a little, as if you were getting shot at too.

[DamienKnight]

Think about the lobby scene in the first Matrix movie. Once the swat guys started shooting, it was probably 9 to 12 seconds before they were all dead. In slow motion we were able to observe Neo and Trinity dodging, running, cartwheeling, disarming, blocking, shooting etc. etc. etc. and it seemed fantastic... but not totally beyond the physics of someone who can move faster than humans are normally allowed to.

The problem here is, we are saying someone has the ability to shoot, duck, bob, weave, run and parry... but then add fall down or drop something, and NOW its suddenly too complicated!?

If you can move your arm to block 4 or 5 times as you are attacked in melee and that is within the rules, why couldnt you drop one item from your hands?

If you can actively dodge someone shooting at you, which entails moving your body out of the way... why couldnt you drop prone?

The rules are giving away parry and dodge actions, then denying even SIMPLER actions.

So Tarantula, the real question is... can you block 5 melee attacks faster than you could drop a pencil from your hand?

[Tarantula]

One pencil? No. One pencil, and drop prone, and shoot/attack someone in melee combat/etc? Probably.

[DamienKnight]

I am not even talking about your actions. I am talking about actions that are LESS than Free actions. Actions that cost nothing and can always be taken, such as Parrying and Dodging. Adding shooting to it does not affect it, because you are adding shooting to both actions.

IE. Dodge and parry several attacks vs. Drop one pencil

You are saying:

IE. Shoot 10 rounds, then dodge and parry several attacks vs. Shoot 10 rounds then drop one pencil

You need to see the point of what I am saying... if you are going to allow engaging in melee as a free action that can be implemented as many times as your reaction allows, why not allow one extra free action of dropping an object?

[Tarantula]

You take a penalty for defending against multiple attacks. You don't get the option of one for a second free action because free actions don't take tests.

If you really argued the point at my table, i'd probably houserule that you could take a -1 to your defending pool for an extra free action, essentially trading defending against an attack for an extra free action.

[DamienKnight]

And finally you see my point... you have to houserule it because telling a character he cant drop something is kind of silly.

Like I said earlier, Free actions are not game breaking... in fact half of them you can only do once until your next action anyway (drop a gun, then your hand is empty until you have a simple action to draw, or drop prone you are on the ground until you have a complex action to stand).

Its only a real problem when you add Krav Maga to it, which is easily fixed by making Krav Maga work just like the Quickdraw phys ad power.

Anyway, I think this topic has been beaten beyond death. Suffice it to say Free Actions are imperfect, as some things are bound to be in any ruleset.