Question On Bows, And The Firing Rates Thereof Options

[Tarantula]

I think that being limited to one free action is reasonable for not having it impact your ability to defend or things of that nature. I think that just granting a handful of free actions "because it doesn't seem right" is not sufficient reason to change the rules.

[BullZeye]

I fail to see the problem of the Krav Maga as even the fastest guy would be able to ready 12 weapons, or pull 6 weapons and drop them all. One would run out of hands but that's besides the point. I did reread the rules and the thread again to figure what's really going on and gotta say that 1 free action per init score makes little sense to me. One can substitute a simple action to a free action so with the ruling of one free per init would result to people doing 20+ free actions. One free + 2 simple or 1 complex per pass sayth the rules and to change that to something else would again brake few other rules. I would be more worried of the Krav Maga's ability to change take aim to free action. That would enable everyone to aim for max score multiple times in one combat turn, would it not with the 1 per score-rule?

On the issue of one word per free action would end up to bit odd scenes:
"Look out, you got a guy behind you, six o'clock, dodge to your left!"
"Ok, I'll..."
Both took 3 seconds but one had bit higher init score (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Having low init doesn't make one slow speaker nor having high the fastest speaker in the world.

On the issue of ejecting the magazine of a gun, even tho it takes very little time to mentally give the command, the mechanical speed of a clip is something different unless you add a really strong spring to propel the mag out. If you at the same time start swinging the gun around, chances are the mag re-enters or flings to somewhere you don't want it. Of course it depends on the gun in question as guns that don't hold the clip inside a handle do release the clip much faster.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) Running is also a free action so a really fast guy could do 20+ run actions in 3 seconds, too? Overtaking cars by running on freeway would be nasty... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

And not to derail too much, 3 arrows per 2 pass as already mentioned (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And Trolls with bows are deadlier than an assault cannon... I got a bowman in the group and the issue I have is the fact that an arrow's speed is so slow that it can take almost 2 combat turns for the arrow to reach the mark and the guy could be already lot further away than where it originally was. Possibly those troll-bows do have lot higher velocity but still in comparison to a bullet, arrow is slow.

[Tarantula]

Minigrenades reach their targets in one combat turn. I think arrows go at least as fast as those.

[BullZeye]

Typical compound bow has the speed of about 300 feet/s (100m/s) on the arrow. It's the mass of the arrow that makes it so deadly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tarantula]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M79_grenade_launcher
Just to strengthen my point... This grenade launcher has muzzle velocity of 76m/s.

[BullZeye]

So it's just a ruled thing even tho it would take the grenade about 7 seconds to reach it's max range.

I'll still continue bugging the player if he shoots to 500m with his bow (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif) Slow projectiles are still slow projectiles (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tarantula]

Then you had better penalize grenades at least equally.

[BullZeye]

Of course (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Tho none of the group has ever used a grenade with a GL launcher. In the past years they have used grenades twice. First time to stack up a bunch of them to make a hole to a wall and another time to kick it back to the one who tossed it at them.

[Platinum Dragon]

The RAW is clear, so I'm not arguing that at all, but as for realism: (house-rule) how about as many free-actions per round as you want, so long as they don't interfere with one-another? So, you could drop prone, drop an item in your hand and shout a warning, but you couldn't drop an item, quick draw another with the same hand, drop it etc, because that hand is occupied with another free action for that IP. You also couldn't mentally eject a smartgun clip and shout a warning because they both occupy your concentration.

Of course, in both those scenarios you could do the second action as a simple (quick-draw grenade (free) -> drop grenage (simple)).

You could get away with quick-drawing two grenades (one in each hand) but would have to spend a simple to drop them.

That way you have a hard-cap on free-actions (so that things don't get silly, I.E. I quick-draw 10 bricks and drop them because bob over there also had 20 free actions) but introduces some sanity (it really isn't noticably harder to drop an item while falling prone than falling prone in the first place is).

[DamienKnight]

Sounds good Platnium Dragon. You have my vote.

[Shalimar]

What happens if an adept with Quickdraw is using a bow? Could he/she draw and fire as a single simple action? How about an adept with Quickdraw and Krav Maga?

[psychophipps]

What happens if an adept with Quickdraw is using a bow? Could he/she draw and fire as a single simple action? How about an adept with Quickdraw and Krav Maga?

One habit that I would really like to see my fellow SR players/GMs get out of is calling the various techniques in the martial arts by the style name. The style is often inaccurately labeled, as is the case with Krav Maga in this specific instance, and you can feel free (pretty please!) to insert the techniques as written into other existing styles or styles you make up yourselves.

One of my favorite styles for the "Ready weapon is a free action" technique (remember it's a technique, not a style unto itself) is IPSC (International Practical Shooting Confederation) and/or IDPA (International Defensive Pistol Association) which are the professional tactical/speed shooting folks. These folks can draw and fire from the "surrender" position, which is both hands up at shoulder height, and hit the target in well under a second and score a hits percentage that is, frankly, quite scary.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

What happens if an adept with Quickdraw is using a bow? Could he/she draw and fire as a single simple action? How about an adept with Quickdraw and Krav Maga?

Aren't readying a bow and readying (nocking) an arrow, two different actions? Also, I don't think they make quickdraw holsters for bows, though special cases could apply, such as "the bow is lying on the table in front of me." And speaking of quickdrawing arrows, I would think that the standard quiver on the back is considered a quickdraw holster.

[Tarantula]

Quickdraw a bow with adept power, yes, one action, as quickdraw lets you draw and attack as one action. As far as krav maga, you could still draw and fire, then ready it, in one pass, but you couldn't shoot it again till the second pass.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

Wait. Is firing a bow is a simple action, or complex? I was assuming that it's a simple action to ready an arrow, and a simple to fire it. This way, once the bow is readied (see Krav Maga) the Quick Draw power allows you to fire two arrows per round. Quick draw and fire the arrow as a simple, and then do it again for your second simple.

Hmm... didn't we just have this conversation? Oh, no definitive answer was arrived at. So first you have to define which sort of actions it takes to fire a bow. Then you can apply your quick draw rules, or what-have-you.

Krav Maga (p. 157, Arsenal): allows any weapon to be readied as a free action. Your GM will let you know if your bow is in a position where it can be easily readied.

Quick draw simple action (p. 137, SR4): can only be used on pistol-sized weapons (not bows or arrows, IMO). Requires a test.

Quick Draw adept power (p. 179, Street Magic): can be used to draw any weapon. Requires a test.

Ialjutsu martial arts maneuver (p. 160, Arsenal): can be used to draw any weapon. Requires a test.

But quick drawing (either type, plus Ialjutsu) combines readying with firing, at the same action type as firing it.

[Cain]

so if scientist and engineers can come up with materials and designs that can make a troll-portable (i highly doubt that it will be man-portable) bow able to withstand those kinds of forces, the basic idea could work.

Leaf spring from a car for the bow. Steel cable for the string. Steel pipe for arrow shafts (you would need troll-sized arrows). It's not difficult to picture a bow that can handle the stresses a troll would put on it.

Damien, i'd love to see you fire a 10 round full auto burst, then think "eject clip" drop the gun, and drop prone all inside of 3 seconds.

Given that the cyclic rate of fire of fully automatic guns is grossly understated in Shadowrun (likely for reasons of balance, playability, and sanity), firing 10 rounds might just be the fastest of the actions you named.

[Cardul]

A thought for those wanting to allow more free actions: Look at reloading, and how that is based on attributes for things other then clip or speed-loader for a revolver. So, why not allow someone a number of free actions equal to their unmodified Reaction, but they can only use them when someone is acting. Meaning, if you are in a fight with 4 people, and you have a reaction of 6, you are not going to get to use all your free actions, but if it is 8 people, and a reaction of 6, you can run out of them.

[Tarantula]

Wait. Is firing a bow is a simple action, or complex? I was assuming that it's a simple action to ready an arrow, and a simple to fire it. This way, once the bow is readied (see Krav Maga) the Quick Draw power allows you to fire two arrows per round. Quick draw and fire the arrow as a simple, and then do it again for your second simple.

Hmm... didn't we just have this conversation? Oh, no definitive answer was arrived at. So first you have to define which sort of actions it takes to fire a bow. Then you can apply your quick draw rules, or what-have-you.

Krav Maga (p. 157, Arsenal): allows any weapon to be readied as a free action. Your GM will let you know if your bow is in a position where it can be easily readied.

Quick draw simple action (p. 137, SR4): can only be used on pistol-sized weapons (not bows or arrows, IMO). Requires a test.

Quick Draw adept power (p. 179, Street Magic): can be used to draw any weapon. Requires a test.

Ialjutsu martial arts maneuver (p. 160, Arsenal): can be used to draw any weapon. Requires a test.

But quick drawing (either type, plus Ialjutsu) combines readying with firing, at the same action type as firing it.

The problem with your premise is this. Bows are a weapon. Arrows are ammunition. Once you have the bow in hand and ready to have an arrow nocked, you can no longer use quick draw, or iaijutsu with it. You must simply "ready action" to nock an arrow and be ready to fire.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

Not true. Though there are several bow-related rules that are not stated (like what sort of action it takes to fire one), the BBB (p. 137) says: "Readying entails... nocking an arrow in a bow, or generally preparing any kind of weapon for use." Not to mention p. 306: "Reloading the bow takes one 'Ready Weapon' action."

Considering that reaching into my coat, pulling out a pistol, and getting it into a position to fire it can be done with the Quick Draw action, why can't reaching over my shoulder, pulling an arrow out of my quiver and getting it into a position to fire it not be done with the same action? Aside from the similarity of action from a realistic standpoint, in-game they're both ready weapon actions.

[Tarantula]

Why not? Quickdraw action says, SR4, 137, "A character may attempt to quick-draw a pistol or pistol-sized weapon and immediately fire it by expending a Quick Draw action."
The adept power says, SM, 179, "The adept may use the Quick Draw rules (p. 137, SR4) to draw any weapon, not just pistols. An adept may draw and use a single melee weapon, missile weapon, throwing weapon, or firearm in one action, and need not spend two actions to draw and ready the weapon and then attack: drawing and readying occur in the action used for the Attack Test."

Neither says that you can do a quick-ready of a weapon that is already drawn.

Edit:
Would it break the game to do it? No, typically not. But letting that troll bow adept start getting 2 20P shots off a round might. It isn't RAW to allow it, but in most games, it wouldn't break anything to allow it.

[MJBurrage]

There are three points of view here:

1. What is allowed by a strict and narrow reading of RAW.
2. What seems to be intended by RAW, I.E. the big picture visible by comparing multiple sections of rules.
3. What most think should be the way it works. This causes arguments when it goes agaisnt RAW, or when RAW allows some broken effect.

A type 1 reading the Quick Draw simple action limits it only to pistols and pistol sized firearms that may be fired with a simple action. A type 2 reading implies that it was meant to combine Ready Weapon (which specifically includes arrows) with Fire Weapon (which is implied to include bows).

The Quick Draw adept power clarifies that the Quick Draw simple action does in fact only apply to pistol sized firearms, but that the adapt power extends the action to include any "single melee weapon, missile weapon, throwing weapon, or firearm in one action"

The third Krav Maga advantage is not a version of Quick Draw, rather it specifically makes Ready Weapon a free action with no other restrictions on its use.

So the RAW rate of fire for bows are:

• Archer with no special skills or powers – One shot per Initiative Pass (20 shots per min. with one IP)
• Krav Maga practitioner – Three shots every two Initiative Passes (30 shots per min. with one IP)
• Adept archer with Quick Draw power – Two shots per Initiative Pass (40 shots per min. with one IP)

The perceived problem is twofold in that the rules for bows grant absurd rates of fire (even one shot per IP is almost twice as fast as a trained military archer from history at 10–12 shots per min.), and that maxed out troll adept archers, firing maxed out bows, seem to make firearms redundant.

I know much of my post reiterates various points made by various users, but as the thread was still going round and round, I thought the summary would be useful.

It still seems to me that the solution for most of the issues (if you feel one is needed) is to house rule that using a bow takes a total of three simple actions (something like Draw Arrow, Ready Bow, and Fire Bow) this gives mundanes 13 shots per minute. Krav Maga (aka KyÅ«dÅ?, etc.), or a Quick Draw action test, would simply be ruled to reduce firing a bow to two simple actions; for one shot per IP (and a chance to screw up if using the Quick Draw action). Adepts could be left alone (it is magic after all) or reduced to three shots every two IPs.

[Tarantula]

MJ. By RAW quickdraw only is applicable when drawing the bow to fire it. It would not be able to replace the ready weapon action and increase the ROF of the archer by RAW.

[MJBurrage]

MJ. By RAW quickdraw only is applicable when drawing the bow to fire it. It would not be able to replace the ready weapon action and increase the ROF of the archer by RAW.

An arrow is a missile weapon, and hence the Quick Draw power applies. Only if one subscribes to your definition of the word weapon as excluding arrows, would your reading of the rule be correct.

By RAW a character can use the Quick Draw power to do all of the following in one simple action:

1. Draw the bow itself
2. Draw an arrow
3. Nock the arrow
4. Pull back the bow
5. Fire the arrow

But, by your interpretation they could not use the power to just do steps 2–5 again. I find this very odd, since they are Quick Drawing the arrow, which is supported by the rules.

P.S. I currently house rule that step 1 is it's own simple action, and that the power only covers steps 2–5.

[Tarantula]

You were giving an example of the "RAW" position, and your example was incorrect. As I said earlier, it isn't game breaking to allow this, but by BY RAW you cannot use it to ready weapon and fire the bow as one action.

[MJBurrage]

From the Quick Draw power, emphasis mine:

An adept may draw and use a single melee weapon, missile weapon, throwing weapon, or firearm in one action, and need not spend two actions to draw and ready the weapon and then attack: drawing and readying occur in the action used for the Attack Test.

To draw and use a bow is steps 1–5, to draw and use an arrow is steps 2–5. Both are explicitly allowed by the power using one simple action.