SR Plotline Options

[NightmareX]

Yes, change is a hallmark of Shadowrun. But 2nd and 3rd edition managed to do it without overhauling and dumping the continuity of the whole setting. Plus it was treated a little more seriously. Just the death of Dunkelzahn got its own entire book, on the other hand the removal of half the world's leaders it seems like, the destruction of more than half the megacorps, destroying the matrix, and diluting the magic system, plus more was all done in one campaign book to wipe the slate clean and jump to 4th edition. It was just basically a sudden train wreck on all the developed plotlines in Shadowrun to wipe the slate clean.

With all due respect, can you please explain - in detail - where you think this huge continuity dump happened? Cause I really don't see it and see some huge fallacies in your statement here. For instance:

* Half the world's leaders weren't removed. The Tir /= half the world, and it's unsure what the present situation is precisely. The only leader I can think of that was removed was the sitting UCAS president, and this was due to a conspiracy established in mid 3rd Edition. Tsimshian was "eaten" by the SSC - again /= half the world. So LA got messed up and Pueblo took a good chunk of southern California. Big deal, soCal's been messed up in SR for ages. Addendum - And Pueblo "ate" the Ute Nation (again, big loss).

* "More than half" the megas were not "destroyed". Precisely three of the megas from 3rd Edition have changed in any significant way, namely Cross Applied Technologies, Yamatetsu, and Novatech. Yamatetsu changed it's name to Evo (oooo, big deal), CATco was bankrupted and/or lost it's AAA status during the second Crash, and Novatech (which as you know used to be Fuchi) merged with two AAs (Erika and Transys Neuronet) to form NeoNet. Horizon jumped jumped in to replace CATco. So you're not even close to the ballpark here.

* The second Crash wiped out the majority of the old Matrix, yes. However, the idea of a wireless Matrix was brewing in SR3 ever since Shadows of Europe IIRC. Definitely Shadows of Asia. Technomancers were added (which I agree was a bad idea), but they could (maybe) be seen as an evolution of the otaku.

* As for "diluting" the magic system, the only thing that's really been changed is the Conjuring mechanics, and frankly those have been a screwed up jigsaw puzzle mess even since Awakenings came out back in 2nd Edition and added Vodoun to the nice neat (and artificial ) Hermetic/Shamanic divided. MitS further convoluted the mess by introducing multiple subtraditons (and what spirits they could summon in the case of shamen), many of which are now treated as full traditions in SR4 (big deal). In short, the magic system hasn't been diluted, but rather streamlined - all the flavor of the original variations is still there if you look hard enough. If you'll note, there's enough fluff in SOTA 64 and Shadows of Europe about new magical theories etc coming out - particularly UMT - to support a majority shift in methodology 6 years later.

* What major plot lines have been lost? The Deus/godlike AI/otaku plot line (good riddance), the Winternight plot line (so the leaders got ganked, who cares there could still be cells running around to play with), and the Ares vs CATco plot (big loss, not).

So in short, the huge continuity dump you're talking about seems to me like nothing but an inflammatory overstatement of the natural chain of events that would happen to the 3rd Edition setting if the Matrix crashed again in the manner it did. So I ask again, please, show me where this huge continuity dump is? Cause the only major and dump and overhaul I see is the mechanics, which IMO was (largely) a good thing due to the simplifying factor.

While I think storyline continuity could easily be fixed (2nd edition was in as bad of shape and was fixed)

Related to the above - what precisely do you feel is in need of fixing?

Which is basically what happened-- the two systems are so dissimilar, Shadowrun was essentially converted to a different game engine.

I'm sorry Cain, but the change really isn't that big. Fixed targets over variable, one hit to stage rather than two, damage tracked by boxes rather than levels (the old L/M/S/D thing), Edge instead of karma pool, 4 being the new 6, and caps. The only major change I see is caps, and none of it even combined makes the systems radically dissimilar let alone a new engine. Myself and the long time player I have were able to pick most of it up intuitively, checking only a few details.

So not all those who've moved to 4th edition are entirely happy with the setting either

In all honesty I'm not 100% happy with it either. Specifically, I don't like the technomancers, I don't like AI proliferation, I don't like skill caps, and the Edge mechanics and the Matrix need a good deal of help. But, no game will ever be perfect, and it's better than previous editions in many ways.

I will say that I think he gets mad far too easily

With respect to everyone, I think this is true of half the board - including myself.

I also think he's stubborn, and will cling to a path, no matter what. This can be both a good and a bad trait in a line developer. Kevin Siembieda of Palladium fame is basically the same way; he sticks to what he considers to be the One True Path, and to hell with anyone who stands in his way.

This is true of virtually anyone who debates in online forums I think. People as a whole do not change their minds until they want to change their minds and feel it is their own idea.

Now look at the nuclear war that is DnD 4th. Try being a fan of that game right now.

I left D&D over 4th edition. It simply isn't even close to the same game anymore. I stayed with SR in 4th edition - given as anal retentive about SR as I am (it annoys the hell outta my newer players sometimes), that alone is a large statement about the degree of change between SR3 and SR4 that I see.

[Wesley Street]

Woah. Lets not have more of demonizing all the people who aren't 4th edition fanboys okay?

And let's not refer to players who prefer 4th edition as "fanboys", n'est-ce pas? A preference to the newer system doesn't make one a catamite to CGL or even fanatical for that matter. We're perfectly capable of placing criticism where it's due.

[Fuchs]

sk8bcn,
Welcome to Dumpshock. Just wanted you to know that while lots of people stuck to SR3, there are plenty of long time SR players here like myself who actually prefer SR4.

-JKL

As someone who started with SR1, I consider SR4 to have restored SR closer to it's original flavor. I was hearthily sick of all the baggage from ED seeping into every nook and cranny of SR.

[Skip]

Double post. Ignore me here folks! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Consider yourself ignored. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

As someone who started with SR1, I consider SR4 to have restored SR closer to it's original flavor. I was hearthily sick of all the baggage from ED seeping into every nook and cranny of SR.

Heh, that's funny because I started with 1e and found most of the ED stuff right in with what I expected. I agree they rushed the horror stuff along too quickly and had to kill off the Big D to rectify the situation, but most of the rest I have no issue with.

The IE are not common knowledge in any edition, nor are you likely to meet any of them knowingly. Quite frankly I see large holes in the history as presented by each edition, I really never got too hung up on it, the group I was in at the time treated most of what they heard as wild rumor, and we never actually faced any of the horrors, so it was never really an issue.

[psychophipps]

I remember the first Harlequin adventure. Our characters weren't war criminals based only upon the fact that the UN wasn't involved, but we did Ok for being utterly ruthless. In the end we cacked that baby dragon in one hit from the Troll's di-kote no-dachi, wiped out the prince's guards in a choke point crossfire ambush (almost killing Mr. Pretty in the process...the poofy little ponce), and stole "Tir 2", the prince's private Banshee, to hock it's parts on the BM for the super-bucks.

Good times... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[jklst14]

I have no idea how SR4's release compared to SR3's. But I wouldn't be surprised if SR4 sold less. It's my understanding that the rpg industry has been in decline for a number of years with most vendors selling significantly less books now than they did five to ten years ago (with the possible exceptions of WotC and WW).

That being said, SR3 versus SR4 threads rarely end well. I don't think anyone ever changes anyone else's minds...

[Skip]

Having played RPGs for nearly the entire life of the pen and paper genre, I don't think I've ever seen the community thinking the industry isn't in decline. Yet it is still here. Yes, it is a cyclical business and yes individual games and companies rise and fall, but the industry as a whole is fairly solid as far as I can tell. The only way I really care about it is whether or not I can find a game when I have the time to play.

[Redjack]

Woah. Lets not have more of demonizing all the people who aren't 4th edition fanboys okay?

And let's not refer to players who prefer 4th edition as "fanboys", n'est-ce pas? A preference to the newer system doesn't make one a catamite to CGL or even fanatical for that matter. We're perfectly capable of placing criticism where it's due.

Ditto.

Welcome to Dumpshock. Just wanted you to know that while lots of people stuck to SR3, there are plenty of long time SR players here like myself who actually prefer SR4.

As someone who started with SR1, I consider SR4 to have restored SR closer to it's original flavor.

Also being an sr1 player through sr4 I prefer the sr4 mechanics (still pining for a skill-web though). I actually liked the ED cross-overs, IEs and dragons. All that gave me options. Options to use or ignore. Options for rumors, myths and urban legends. The players never knew how much was true and how much was hog-wash. If I wanted to play prime runners I had prime runner level fluff. None of that stuff mattered too much for street level games though, but it was cool having it available if I wanted to use it.

As in everything in Shadowrun, the real question for the players always is: How much of the what I'm being told is the truth, how much is loosely based on the truth and how much is total fabrication?

[tete]

Couple quick things -

1. Post count is not a measure of time spent on a message board. I've been a lurker on here for two years, signed up for an account last year, never got a registration email, walked away for about six months, and came back to find my account mysteriously worked. So the "I see by your post count..." felt a little condescending, personally.

Shadowrun 3rd to 4th is a different than oWoD to nWoD. Shadowrun is still completely Shadowrun, but with some de-emphasis on some of the plot elements. oWoD doesn't exist any more. They kept a name or two, and that's it. That's not even opinion, that's fact; go on, tell me where Sam Haight is or what's going on in the Underworld post-Sixth Maelstrom.

I've been on dumpshock since the late 90s and survived the great crash of 02' (art imitates life imitates art)

I disagree 3e vs 4e is very much an oWOD vs nWOD. The mechanics drastically changed and the world got a reboot. Not as drastic of a reboot metaplot wise as nWOD did but a reboot none the least. Also I believe they moved the timeline from 61 years in the future to 65. You might say what does it matter, well much in the way some oWOD fans were outraged at a totally new game, you have Shadowrun fans (some who have had on going games since 89' ) have some major core things change. I don't blame anyone for it some things needed cleaning up for new players to come in but the changes for those of us who have read every novel and own every sourcebook (even limited hard cover 3e) its sometimes a tough pill to swallow.

My opinion is that when a game company does something like this they should release a design document containing why they did what they did. We found that this speeds up play or we wanted to take the focus away from skills and put it into attributes and gear. Justin Achillie was nice enough to email me back and forth after nWOD came out giving me the basics of why they went the route they did and while I still disagree with some of the things they were hoping to do I can see that they did in fact accomplish those goals and this makes that pill easier to swallow.

I also think 4e is probably the best shadowrun rules to date however there are more than a few new problems they have created that were not there before (edge and skill caps being the biggest of the offenders, and whats up with group skills and attributes cost 10BP at character creation but with karma group skills cost x5 and attributes cost x3)

[jklst14]

Having played RPGs for nearly the entire life of the pen and paper genre, I don't think I've ever seen the community thinking the industry isn't in decline. Yet it is still here. Yes, it is a cyclical business and yes individual games and companies rise and fall, but the industry as a whole is fairly solid as far as I can tell. The only way I really care about it is whether or not I can find a game when I have the time to play.

I'm not in a position to judge the state of the industry but I've heard some good podcast interviews (i.e. on Fear the Boot ) that have been very informative about the matter.

[tete]

I'm not in a position to judge the state of the industry but I've heard some good podcast interviews (i.e. on Fear the Boot ) that have been very informative about the matter.

I can't judge the world or even the US but I think thats a load of horse stuff in Seattle. We have 2 gaming stores in redmond, 2 in bellevue, 1 in edmonds, 4 in seattle (two of them are mostly boardgames), + barns and noble, & half priced books (6 of them last time I counted) all over the place that have great selections of used RPGs and do well enough in some stores to have their own sections near the front not hidden in the back. 3 of those gaming stores are packed on the weekends. I think when people talk about that they are not looking at indie press or used book sales. There are people in their 50s now who have been gaming forever. I don't think sales of major RPGs is a good way of judging the state of the industry. There are guys still playing 1e AD&D out there, who buy up books from the used book stores. There are the pdf sales, lulu, and a huge indie gaming movement. For the big dogs this is bad news as they have to put out good stuff, one of the reason WOTC 4e isn't selling like they hoped (though still sells well) is you have a % of people like me who think Necromancer and other 3rd party publishers are what made 3.X great and until they are on board we don't have interest in the WOTC stuff. It all boils down to the competition is fierce now, you cant make a game with crappy rules, art, or setting and expect it to sell.

[ravensmuse]

I disagree 3e vs 4e is very much an oWOD vs nWOD. The mechanics drastically changed and the world got a reboot.

The mechanics changed, yeah. But where is this reboot that everyone keeps talking about? The Awakening happened in 2011. Dunkelzahn awoke in 2012 and started Wyrm Talk. The Crash of '29. Bugs started making in-roads into humanity around the '50s. Dunk became president in 2057 only to blow up the night of his inauguration. The Arcology Incident introduced Deus, who would later end up causing the Second Crash. All of that information is still right there in the corebook and is mentioned in all of the major releases Fanpro / Catalyst has written as of this posting.

As Nightmare put it - one corp imploded (but were going to anyway) and a couple corps changed their names. The Matrix went wireless. That's enough to call this thing a reboot?

I'm really just bonking my head against this guys.

[Wesley Street]

You're not the only one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif) There's also a fairly logical reason as to why the timeline was pushed from 2064/2065 to 2070, both in terms of story and game mechanics and that's the introduction of the wireless Matrix. There needed to be a believable time gap to establish the Matrix 2.0 and have it integrate into the cultures of Shadowrun. I seriously doubt that five/six-year gap was arbitrarily picked just to dick over 1st/2nd/3rd ed. players, and I'm speaking as someone who has nearly every SR sourcebook published (they're great flavor pieces even if the leaders and power players have changed). Bringing hackers actually into the running team rather than sitting in their moms' basements is hands down the smartest thing SR 4th ed. does.

[jklst14]

I can't judge the world or even the US but I think thats a load of horse stuff in Seattle. We have 2 gaming stores in redmond, 2 in bellevue, 1 in edmonds, 4 in seattle (two of them are mostly boardgames), + barns and noble, & half priced books (6 of them last time I counted) all over the place that have great selections of used RPGs and do well enough in some stores to have their own sections near the front not hidden in the back. 3 of those gaming stores are packed on the weekends. I think when people talk about that they are not looking at indie press or used book sales. There are people in their 50s now who have been gaming forever. I don't think sales of major RPGs is a good way of judging the state of the industry. There are guys still playing 1e AD&D out there, who buy up books from the used book stores. There are the pdf sales, lulu, and a huge indie gaming movement. For the big dogs this is bad news as they have to put out good stuff, one of the reason WOTC 4e isn't selling like they hoped (though still sells well) is you have a % of people like me who think Necromancer and other 3rd party publishers are what made 3.X great and until they are on board we don't have interest in the WOTC stuff. It all boils down to the competition is fierce now, you cant make a game with crappy rules, art, or setting and expect it to sell.

Not trying to pick a fight - I love PnP gaming and want to see it thrive and do well - but I would suggest listening to the Ryan Dancey interview on Fear the Boot. It is very informative.

I would also say that there is a difference between the state of the hobby and the state of the industry. The industry could die with all the publishers disappearing while the hobby (people playing) could survive based on just what has already been published. But without a healthy game industry with profitable publishers printing new stuff and bringing in new players, the hobby will eventually suffer.

That being said, I agree that there are a lot of good things going on in the RPG industry from PDFs to a proliferation of small press/indie games. But I think the indie press movement might be smaller than you think. Personally, I'm a huge Burning Wheel fan and am having a great time in a Blossoms are Falling... campaign. But despite all the buzz around BW, Luke Crane himself said he's only sold about 5000 copies (can't find the source but you can look at this older sales data he posted on the Forge .

[tete]

Not trying to pick a fight - I love PnP gaming and want to see it thrive and do well - but I would suggest listening to the Ryan Dancey interview on Fear the Boot. It is very informative.

No fight intended (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Seattle may be the exception but honestly the game stores here can't keep some things in stock. Here you can't throw a rock without hitting some type of gamer (computer, rpg, larp, war, or board). The industry experts constantly talk about how sales are down etc etc but then you have things like cthuhlutech 1st printing that as soon as a box of shiny new books gets opened it vanishes before the retailer can put it on the shelf. Then 2nd printing hits and they don't put in the super cool color pages etc etc and retailers buy them up expecting them to sell and they don't. Because gamers today are not the gamers of the 80s, they expect a higher production value. You need eye candy, good setting/writing, a well playtested system. If you give them that you can't keep it in stock. One of my friend recently joined the gaming industry crowed and they can't keep up with demand for the rule book. They thought they would be lucky to sell 1,000, I think they are up to over 3,000 and counting but they obviously don't want to print too many but at the same time the slow release is hurting sales as some gamers just move on.

PS I have heard the interview with Ryan Dancey. I also heard the Batttletech surprise at Gen-Con was amazing and I suspect that book will be hard to keep up with demand on without overprinting.

[Not of this Worl...]

With all due respect, can you please explain - in detail - where you think this huge continuity dump happened? Cause I really don't see it and see some huge fallacies in your statement here.

Can you give me names from 4th edition of leaders who remained? The end of System Failure established that you can remove all of them in a massive overthrow plus you can invoke the Crash 2.0 and Winterknight to kill off any other world leaders.

All of the Matrix was dumped, not just Deus. Deckers, Otaku, the Matrix itself, to be replaced by "The Wireless" tm that goes beyond the bounds of wireless networks by being almost entirely wireless (people fail to realize that you can't replace the landlines or internet backbones by any currently theorized stretch of technology) and making mechanical devices like guns or bio-electric implants.

In 5 years people have stopped using the new slang to do a retro fad worse than 80s Mohawks in talking like people from the 90s or 00s. Immersion -4 for you!

Oh and I'll agree the Magic system had too many variants and needed simplifying since 2nd edition. But they took this way beyond and started making even mages and shamans similar in conjuring (Their distinguishing differences were NOT spellcasting to begin with). This is quintessential Shadowrun from 1st to 3rd that you've got very different intellectual and emotional magic systems and simply a gloss of style.

I find it funny that you ask what major plot lines have been lost but then start answering it yourself. You know the answers but it goes way beyond the few you listed. All plotlines relating to the Matrix, overthrown governments, overthrown Corps or their overthrown leaders. IEs are being downplayed as Dragons are the replacement "flavor du jour", sorry if you actually liked that elven fantasy setting.
Seen any real Native Americans anywhere in 2070? Hmm. I mean just how far do we need to go with this, or is it so long as we have Lofwyr and Damien Knight we have plotline continuity (WoD still has Cain mythology, etc too it should be pointed out). I could go on about this for days (and I'm bound to already post a book in response) listing not only the things that were dropped, but about the related things that have to be dropped as a result of the things that were dropped. If you refuse to see a continuity dump nobody can force you to, so don't be expecting us to reach through your screen and ring your neck.

They may not have destroyed the actual world like they did in WoD, but they did the next closest thing in destroying the Matrix setting and replacing it and completing rewriting the way the rules of Magic work and replacing the core mechanics.

So we dumped all this for what simplifying factor? Character Creation is a pain, vehicle and initiative interactions are a pain and confusing. Sure Hackers can "hack" in gun combat, but real matrix runs are a major pain and lack much of the fear factor of before. Please describe what this great improvement was from 3rd to 4th edition? I've heard enough about how some players prefer the new fluff setting, but many of us including myself simply don't.

As in everything in Shadowrun, the real question for the players always is: How much of the what I'm being told is the truth, how much is loosely based on the truth and how much is total fabrication?

Sure, absolutely agreed to this. The problem is the stuff I object to isn't mere Shadowtalk. It is the actual hard "history" of the book and the premises upon which the world is built.

Now I don't object to an actual 4th edition any more than I objected to a 3rd or 2nd... which is to say not at all.

I object that rather than improving the rule system they simply replaced it and the new one is just as problematic only in different ways. But I've already home ruled the old way to working well so why get a new system to simply do the same?
The Old Matrix system worked when you used the suggestions for integrating Deckers into your group and not trying to treat them the same as a Street Sam. Trying to explain why all the Gangers traded in their old guns for new ones you can hack... well neither myself nor any of my players have gone in for that.

Anyways I think it is enough. Those of you who are really in love with 4th edition aren't going to give it up and start playing 3rd and neither would I care if you did. I'm interested in moving forward and getting back a Shadowrun in development I and many others can really love again as much or more than we love(d) 3rd edition.

Now here is the big money question for those of you so antagonistic to us who aren't fans of 4th edition. Would you rather keep the game in the static direction it is going or find a way to grow the game/franchise by including the majority of SR fans who dislike 4th edition?

[Rasumichin]

I can't stop thinking "Paizo was right" while reading this.
Not because i'd be against SR4 and would like to see a SR version of Pathfinder RPG (heck, 4th is my favourite edition of SR), but because it just makes sense economically.

I think there's a growing market for gaming groups who will not switch over to new editions- and for whom it just wouldn't make sense.
Imagine : you have a bookshelf, or wall, or entire basement or garage full of books for a certain edition of a game you and your group have enjoyed for years, you have a deep and complete grasp of how the rules work, have patched up all the buggy stuff with houserules, have something that really works and now that editions have changed, a steady supply of used material at reduced prices.

Why would you want to change that?

We've seen the division between SR3 and 4, we'll see a split of D&D into Pathfinder and 4e, over here, we have a vast majority of oWoDers (so vast that the new edition's translation actually got cancelled and WoD is clinically dead on a commercial level- but i'm sure there's still aging goths around who have got groups running), we have loads of groups playing third edition of TDE (which in Germany is as synonymous with RPG as D&D is in the US), there's a new print of CP2020...in short, we have a thriving community of vintage gaming.

And there certainly is money to be made by catering to them- it's a smaller market, but with selling PDFs or PODs of older titles, you have a risk-free business model for that.
Of course, we also need new editions to attract younger gamers, editions that adjust to the changes in gamer culture and appear fresh and exiting to younger folks.
And it can't hurt to step out of our grognard manerisms and give them a try, as a new approach to an old product can give a game a focus that a slight overhaul can't provide.
On the other hand, a slight overhaul can do wonders for a working system and might still allow compatibility to older material.

Probably Pathfinder will pave the way for a gaming culture that embraces the parallel existence of different editions.

If someone absolutely wants to play Classic Shadowrun or whatever, well, why not?
You might not be able to convince everyone to follow the change to a new edition.
Once you've reached the point that this is obvious, you might want to take care of that market segment, too.

[jklst14]

I got the first printing of Cthulhutech. Haven't played yet but would like to one day. I think WH 40K Dark Heresy is another good example of a very successful recent rpg release.

Now here is the big money question for those of you so antagonistic to us who aren't fans of 4th edition. Would you rather keep the game in the static direction it is going or find a way to grow the game/franchise by including the majority of SR fans who dislike 4th edition?

No antagonism from me but I am actually pretty happy with the direction SR4 is going in. Really looking forward to Ghost Cartels, Feral Cities and Vice.

[hobgoblin]

http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20080822

[Caine Hazen]

Now here is the big money question for those of you so antagonistic to us who aren't fans of 4th edition. Would you rather keep the game in the static direction it is going or find a way to grow the game/franchise by including the majority of SR fans who dislike 4th edition?

I'm not so antagonistic, just confused by the these fans. After talking a bit with people working for CGL, I see a big-time story line coming up. I don't know what you equate to static in this case. Hell for all you know seeds were already dropped in some of the books for this stuff, you just haven't read enough 4th ed to notice yet.

Oh, and as to killing off lots of leaders, and the "sacred" matrix you speak of... Systems Failure was a 3rd ed book. Even if the edition hadn't changed, the world would have, and it would have moved on with or without you.

Edit: added a ++ to hobgoblin as well... well played sir, well played!

[ravensmuse]

http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20080822

I see your point and raise you -

http://xkcd.com/386/

[Not of this Worl...]

Oh, and as to killing off lots of leaders, and the "sacred" matrix you speak of... Systems Failure was a 3rd ed book. Even if the edition hadn't changed, the world would have, and it would have moved on with or without you.

Systems Failure wasn't created just as some interesting plot book, it was specifically created as an "End of the World" book ala the ending of oWoD. The development line didn't go "oh we created Systems Failure... now what, make an edition to improve the rules?"

No, the development process was well we have this 4th edition where we changed everything. Lets make 1 quick book to paste over the setting and create some illusion of continuity with our new world where we've fundamentally remade everything.

Yeah, it would be nice if if System Failure had been the result of staying up late one night and hitting upon a really awesome plot idea ala Dunkelzahn's Will... but it wasn't and in my opinion it shows. I have my copy of it as a result of someone being so disgusted with it after buying it they were going to trash it so I kept it as a reference instead.

[Tiger Eyes]

Seen any real Native Americans anywhere in 2070?

Well, the PCC did get some mention in Corporate Enclaves, since LA is a part of their nation. That was mentioned in 2062, 3rd Edition, as part of Shadows of North America (pg 85). So it is following a continuous plot.

But the reason you've seen very little of the NAN is because the majority of books published so far have been core rules books, not "fluff" books. Augmentation, Arsenal, Street Magic, Unwired, Runners Companion. The two main fluff books have been location books. Emergence mentioned the NAN (Kivanet anyone?).

As far as plot goes, there hasn't been the plot line releases the other edition had... yet. But Catalyst getting out the 5 core rules books, plus three location books (including Feral Cities), plus a major plot book/written adventure arc (Ghost Cartels)... the plot will be moving forward. Deciding to focus on the core rules books was a decision made by the Powers-That-Be and one that I personally think was wise (YMMV). Should they have ditched one of those books to put something else out instead?

[hobgoblin]

I see your point and raise you -

http://xkcd.com/386/

while i love to read both. for some reason the stickfigures of xkcd comes across as overly self-righteous more often then preferable. but yes, nice one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

i guess i was half expecting it right after hitting "add reply"...

[tete]

Systems Failure wasn't created just as some interesting plot book, it was specifically created as an "End of the World" book ala the ending of oWoD. The development line didn't go "oh we created Systems Failure... now what, make an edition to improve the rules?"

I couldn't have said it better myself. The only way there is still continuity is they didnt rewrite the history like nWOD. If White Wolf had instead said Cain came back the Werewolves died and the Technocracy won and life goes on in a totally new game but it used to be that way. Then nWOD would have done the same thing as Fanpro. TSR did it with FR twice now, Time of Troubles and 4e. I even like a good chunk of all the new settings but trying to deny that it happened is silly (no offense intended), you don't have to rewrite the history to reboot the world.

My only real big problem with 4e is rules that either A. didn't get playtested enough(Edge? hello, a guy with 6 edge is way more powerful in a typical 4 hour SR missions game than the guy with 3) B. they didn't listen to the playtesters or C. make no logical sense (the whole thing of attributes and group skill costs at character creation vs improving with karma) I expected some sort of reboot. Big D dying was a reboot so its not like its been the first time.

Now here is the big money question for those of you so antagonistic to us who aren't fans of 4th edition. Would you rather keep the game in the static direction it is going or find a way to grow the game/franchise by including the majority of SR fans who dislike 4th edition?

I don't want to go backwards that improves nothing, the older editions had their own set of problems. I am hopeful that Catalyst will continue with 4e perhaps adding more optional rules that will be allowed in Missions play (I think it is very important that Missions games be allowed to have optional rules applied, for playtesting reasons if nothing else). Then gathering information about what works, what does not work and going with the majority when 10 years from now we have 5e. I also want the developers to cater to the spirit of 1e and the majority of players not the whiners like myself. If the majority disagrees with me that technomancers should not be a standard option and be moved to runners companion then ill keep whining but go with the majority unless they want something that goes completely against the 1e spirit. For example I hate the point buy system and qualities and think those should both be in the runners companion but I believe I am in the minority in both therefore I don't expect Catalyst to change that on my account. If Catalyst wants the old timers back then need to regain our trust that was lost with Fanpro (some would say late FASA) bringing back the 1e and giving us the best rules ever (even if spread across 9 books as optional rules) if they do that then they will bring us back into the fold and have a well playtested and approved by majority system for 5e core. Big changes are upsetting but if you can make it a real improvement we will change eventually.

PS. that comic xkcd... HILARIOUS

[EDIT] Honestly as much as I love the 1e feel of Metahuman A etc I think if your going to do a pt based character gen you should throw out the legacy and build it balanced but have options for character creation to increase the price of metahumans & magic. Let the GM choose