I'm new in dumpshock's forum. I came there after reading the excellent work on Ancient Files. I've read the topic about Tir Taingire and I must say I have surprised:

First by: The harshness of the posts. But that's not a problem to me.

Second by: How much so people hate the Earthdawn connections.

Wow, I've been playing SR long time before trying ED. At the start, I had no idea of who "The laughing man" could be. Quite seriously, I wasn't really concerned by that. Now I know a lot more: Links between dragons, immortal elves and stuff.

I belong to the persons that appreciate those characters. As the Gamemaster; for the storyplot; but where does that change the story for a cyberpunk scenario?

"dragons are too strong, immortal elves are too strong, bla bla" O_o So what? I don't see the big different between an Ehran and a Richard Villers? I bet none made a scenario whose climax was a gunfight between PC's and Viller with a machine gun.

What I do mean, is that some people liked those story arcs (like me, though I haven't the full overview of this stuff) and other not. But they don't harm the game.

Third: However I am a bit scared. As I have loads of RPGs I play them by phase and it's not my SR yet so even if I already bought 4th edition books, I haven't read them yet.
What I love in SR, is that the setting was credible and the autors knew where they going.

Is this dead with Catalyst?

They haven't done a lot yet, are you guys sure about this?

I've seen a lot of speculation based on the fact that an ork is leader of TT.

So what are the actual pro and cons?

Is it that bad or not?

Simple answer: The game focuses less on world shaking politics and more on the being armed to the teeth criminals with mil-spec gear aspect. On the otherhand, there were alot of changes resulting from the Crash 2.0, and some of the repercussions we have not seen yet. I suspect that in the upcoming novels we will be seeing what exactly is going on. However, just because there is an Ork in charge of Tir Tairngire does not mean that there is not still connections to ED subtly worked in. Not that TPTB can blatantly say so, just like we now have Windln-er, pixies as PC options.

But, yes, from what we have heard out of the SR chat at GenCon, they are moving the meta-plot forward again.

In my opinion, the 4th edition from a background point of view, has taken a totaly different turn : technology is the main focus, magic is a science not a mystical art anymore, and it has no longer the "mad max" feeling you could have in certain place of the world prior to the crash 2.0.
I really dont like it.
But the rule set is MUCH MUCH better than all the previous editions (original SR rules sucked soo much :'( ).
So what i do is run in 2050 (well 2052 now in my campaign) but with the 4th edition rules.
Matrix is a bit tricky to deal with, but i can handle it, same for drones. Basicaly you can keep the rules as they are, but by keeping the pre wireless fluff and possibilities. (so no you cant hack that guy's cyberarm.)
I enjoy it much more that way, and dont have to answer the questions you're asking.
Plus i'm running Harlequin (and managed to find in a shop Harlequin's back this weekend ^^).
I, like you, feel that having immensely powerfull characters isnt a big deal, and even it's totaly impossible to remove those (unless you play D&D because you can just kill everything provided you have the XP ...)

So anyway, if you liked the previous editions fluff, just run in a setting before the crash (the wireless stuff changes EVERYTHING to the way you have to play in my mind).

That's my 2 nuyens

Actually I also do the 2050 world setting with SR4 rules (Especially the matrix rules). I like it because while I'm not sure how much I prefir the older setting I know it a whole lot better. Also it means that not everything is availible right off the bat but will become availible to players over time. Keeping them greedy.

I like the earthdawn stuff personally. It adds a lot of depth to some plots. I totally agree with the "do you get in a machinegun fight with Villars?" comment.

That said I'd wait a while before throwing players into "bigger" plots. Let them get comfortable with smaller stuff.

Also I like the earthdawn connection because it explains a number of things. For example edge is a lot less annoying when it's "real".

My goal is to play a few big campaigns. I've played SR quite a lot but never did I used the whole storyline. And with the pdf plus online buying, I really deepend my collection. So the bug's storyplot + presidential events with the horror theme will be the phase one. Then corporate war+the Arcologie shutdown and Deus events up to the crash will be the phase 2. Enough for the PC to retire and start SR4 with probably enough material to run a good campaign in 2070.

I'll use a bit of the ED connections as the players currently play ED (by the way Redbrick is doing quite a good job on the game. I appreciate the fact they are active on the forum and I was kind of disappointed not to find one official for Catalyst. Direct feedback and discussion with core fans helps developpers, no?), and having an idea of what happens in SR helps on a few hooks.

About these connections, I understand that pure SR fans are not fond of it. But for players playing both games, it's nice. And it will be nice to see some cross themes on Equinox, taking place in the 8th world.



So hoppefully, the plot will go forword and in the right direction.

Long live to the best setting ever! Shadowrun!

I would have loved to do the Bug storyline plot, but my players already did it.
I'm running Harlequin, but basicaly i'm doing 1 or 2 classic runs, then one part of the Harlequin story and go again for classical runs.
It runs smoothly.
By the way, anyone knows what would be the follow up to Harlequin's back plotwise ?(in official scenarios i mean)

I think the events of Super Tuesday come next bookwise. And after HB you're probably free to play that as epic as you want to.

While there may be no central Catalyst forum, Dumpshock is pretty much THE Shadowrun forum, and has outlasted the companies making the products. As a result, the current devs and writers and freelancers do visit here, make comments, and keep us updated with clarifications and errata and even their takes on game situations and concepts. It's actually quite nice.

Not all of us. I'm rather indifferent to it. I find the idea of Earthdawn as the 4th World an intriguing one though it's not a campaign setting I want to play.

What I find frustrating are concepts from Earthdawn being integrated into Shadowrun without solid explanations given to Shadowrun players. It feels like a Shadowrun completest like myself is expected to know what an Immortal Elf/Horror/whatever is. I find that unfair given that no SR sourcebook (caveat: I own approximately 85% of the published sourcebooks so maybe I missed something in the 15% I don't have) has ever been dedicated to or touched on those topics.

Well 4th edition was very unpopular with a very lot of Shadowrun veterans from older editions. It has had its stalwart converts and a lot of new people have picked it up so that you essentially have two sub communities. A lot of people playing older versions soundly disappointed in 4th ed and a lot of people who like their 4th edition.



Well, there is a long history behind that. For people like myself who started with 1st edition there was no Earthdawn. It was supposed to be "this could be our world" if it had a secret history of magic. Earthdawn through most of our real-world realism out the world and started changing a lot of things. It also went from being a possible SR history (which is how I liked it) to becoming THE SR history. I still like it when the ED metaplot is there but isn't so heavily pushed that you feel forced to use it, but could still say it is the real world history of our world if you tried (or even other options presented as well).

But I will also say there is another class of player who just hates all of it.



Well, 4th edition started with Fanpro and not Catalyst. To give them some grace for what I view as the badness of 4th edition they just picked up and ran with what Fanpro left them. I'm sure given time they will do a lot more with the metaplot.

But for me as you pointed out things like an Ork leader are not credible and the whole Crash 2.0 was just an attempt to wipe clean most of the Shadowrun setting and rewrite as much as possible. As you can guess I'm staying with 3rd edition for continuity and because the setting is fun and fleshed out and there are enough plot hooks in my existing collection of books to last a lifetime. Which is good because Catalyst doesn't seem interested in trying to win back the large disgruntled player base of Shadowrun from what I've seen so far.

I've learned enough about horrors and Immortal Elves through Shadowrun osmosis that I think I have a pretty good grasp on them. I don't think a book on the 4th World will be forthcoming...mostly because someone else holds that license. Myself, I honestly don't like the assumption that the horrors and such will be returning, or that we could lose the unique Shadowrun setting. That's a personal feeling, and nothing more.

---

But let's discuss this sudden rush of, "Catalyst hates the Shadowrun backstory! They hate us veterans! Baw baw baw!"

First off, I sincerely doubt Catalyst hates you. In fact, talking to the couple of guys running the Bootcamp on Friday at Gencon (Hi whoever you were!) they love their base. But also fact, they also need to continue to bring in new players at the same rate as people leaving.

Shadowrun is almost twenty years old and has a ton of backstory - and we're talking the stuff that happened before 1e! We've had a gameworld timeline start in 2050, and now we're at 2070 and man, what a ride it's been. Bugs showing up and trying to subsume humanity, Dragons becoming presidents, dying, and then starting up some sort of tribal succession war, Immortal Elves fighting "something" (we call them horrors, but who knows?), Aztlan's blood magic issues (and their later War in the Yucatan), Ghostwalker showing up, shedim trying to steal our corpses, hostile corporate wars...I'm not even scratching the surface at this point. But look at that. That is a lot of stuff.

Now imagine being someone new, being handed a big ol' tome of history, and being told, "read this before we get to gaming." For someone like myself or CanRay, we're all good. We're ready for that. But not every player gives two tosses about the 2057 election or the Arcology shutdown - unless it's actually relevant to the game at hand.

So Catalyst had to punt it. They had to give enough of an overview to explain where some of their concepts were coming from ("wait, why does the United States look like a patchwork quilt?") but not so much that a newbies eyes'd glaze over and roll back into their heads.

I know this is kind of disheartening, but c'mon. For those of us that are into those things, we've got the books already. And you know we love to share.

And occassionally, things need to be stirred up. Change has always been a theme in Shadowrun, right down to UGE, Goblinization, and SURGE (boo, hiss, SURGE, I can already hear some of you saying). Aztlan got kicked out of Denver. Chicago disappeared off of the map. Where's Fuchi? It is random that Pointy Elf Land That Don't Let Us Dirty White Folk In got an Ork for a Prince but - why? Who did it? Is it some Machiavellian elfin power-move, or simply radical racial upheaval within the Council? It's an opportunity for something new, exciting, and mysterious, not some foul plot of the developer's, maniacally chuckling in their shadow'd board rooms. Change, growth, and Awakening are themese used often within the Shadowrun world.

Finally - new players are going to take one look at a computer terminal wired to a character's head and giggle. Sorry. They just don't have the same frame of reference some of us do. 1e and partly 2e is grounded in the 80s and pink mohawks and punk music were the counterculture then. But it's changed, adapted and evolved since, and now most people just won't get why that guy has a wire attached to the skin below a pink mohawk.

Think about this: how many of us have made fun of our parents for being hippies in the 60s? Or having bell bottoms and dancing the hustle? For us sorta younger folk, how many of us shamefully hide their plaid shirts from the 90s and groan whenever that Bee Girl video plays on tv? There you go. That's how someone from this current generation is going to feel about pink mohawks.

Whoo. To wrap up this big ol' block of text (I am so sorry) - from what I see, Catalyst simply wanted to give Shadowrun an easier entry point to people who have been interested in the game but kept away by the seeming complexity of it. Yes the dice mechanic is different. Yes they streamlined magic and made the Matrix..."odd" (I like it, but that's me). They stuck a little anime in there - so what? Ghost in the Shell was an influence as far back as 2e, as was Akira. And the Matrix movies...c'mon. Completely subtracting Neo and Smith from the equation, that's what the Matrix looks at me. People talk about Morpheus the same way we talk about Fastjack. He's damn good at what he does and he makes it look easy (and badass!).

It's not that big a change and Catalyst is not giving older fans the middle finger. They're trying to expand the audience. Big deal. They haven't stuck anything in there that isn't either a complete follow through of plotlines started all the way back by FASA (Deus and the Second Crash) or could begin a whole plot of its own (the aforementioned Ork in the Tir).

I mean, it's not like when White Wolf told all of us oWoDers that we'd been doing it wrong for ten or so years.

Welcome to Dumpshock, sk8bcn.

ah the sweet sting of passionate vitriol and cynical bile burning out the eyeballs backed by raging flames. It must be Dumpshock.

On a serious note occasioanlly you can get some good, insightful and creative discourse. Just load up on patience and fire retardent.

You may find this useful, I did when I ran a "classic" game
http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/shadowrun/adventure%20dates.html

Woah. Lets not have more of demonizing all the people who aren't 4th edition fanboys okay?

I haven't seen anybody claiming Catalyst "hates" us, not even me.

Also, all your stuff about CGL "punting" it is off-base too. It was Fanpro not Catalyst that made that decision. Catalyst simply picked up where Fanpro left them which was having a half-way done launch of 4th edition. So second fact wrong.

Yes, change is a hallmark of Shadowrun. But 2nd and 3rd edition managed to do it without overhauling and dumping the continuity of the whole setting. Plus it was treated a little more seriously. Just the death of Dunkelzahn got its own entire book, on the other hand the removal of half the world's leaders it seems like, the destruction of more than half the megacorps, destroying the matrix, and diluting the magic system, plus more was all done in one campaign book to wipe the slate clean and jump to 4th edition. It was just basically a sudden train wreck on all the developed plotlines in Shadowrun to wipe the slate clean.

Any arguments about 1st edition and 2nd edition are irrelevant because we're talking about 3rd to 4th edition here. Not that I think this is that hard a concept to grasp:

[img]http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/shadowrun/images/7101.jpg[/img]

In fact it works a lot better than either the 3rd edition or 4th edition cover art at conveying the concept of what Shadowrun is. In fact, even people from Catalyst have told me and agreed on that point first hand.



and how many pink mohawks can you count in 3rd edition? Pink Mohawks are a straw man argument in defense of 4th edition who don't truly understand that Shadowrun had already moved past iconic images of the 80s. Even if it hadn't, retro fashion has been a hallmark of Star Trek that hasn't detracted from it being a success and I don't see it being any different for Shadowrun.



Okay, wrong, wrong and wrong. As said before it was started by Fanpro (who was dumped by Wizkids for good reason) and continued by Catalyst. 4th edition HAS NOT expanded the audience, it has replaced it. Most veterans and fans of older editions would whole heartedly endorse any effort to expand the popularity of the franchise that didn't try to disregard and dump the old fans in the process. Now by your join date I see you weren't here when the whole 4th edition controversy was going around but that was essentially exactly what happened. 4th edition got a lot (if not the simple outright majority) of bad feedback and playtesting. But the whole response from Fanpro and Shadowrun management (which is also different now, Rob Boyle has moved on as he was admittedly bored of all things Shadowrun) at the time was to disregard the fanbase and go full speed ahead.

Plotlines continued from previous editions? what exactly are those besides Dragons (particularly Lofwyr) becoming the new Deus Ex Machina behind everything? Plus we have no doubt that an Ork in charge of an Elven Nation won't have a plot, it will simply be a highly contrived one rather than a good one (even bad novels can have a plot, but a bad plot doesn't make you want to read it).

Between complete mechanics rewrite and their oWoD world ending Fanpro/Catalyst did the same thing and told us veteran players we weren't playing Shadowrun right. nWoD is in the same boat as 4th edition, it is doing fine and making money but it has a new player base and a very disgruntled old playerbase.

I will give Catalyst more credit than that even, it isn't that their books suck.
Catalyst is putting forth a good Shadowrun product.
But they dumped a good rule mechanic for a new one that wasn't an improvement because of so many problems. Then worse they dumped an excellent storyline, for a good storyline

Consider us in the same league as veteran Star Wars fans. Are the newer Star Wars movies good? Yes, but they're still a profound disappointment as a follow-up to movies that were so superb. 4th edition has a lot of things that leave a bad taste in the mouths of Shadowrun fans like Midichlorians and Jar Jar do for Star Wars fans.

Now to give the folks at Catalyst more credit they definitely listen to the complaints of veterans and new players alike regarding their product. I've had private conversations with 3 Catalyst employees this summer about why I still play/GM 3rd edition and don't like 4th edition. Two of those employees took the initiative to start the conversation with me and solicit my feedback. But what still disappoints me afterwards is that in my opinion I've yet to see any initiative or resolve to win back those old fans of Shadowrun and expand the playerbase.

But don't be surprised that us old fans still wish for the demise of 4th edition so that a new or old Shadowrun (i.e. Earthdawn 2nd edition canceled and 1st edition license renewed) can take its place. Judging by the market for used copies of 3rd edition and the fanbase that still frequents Dumpshock and other gaming sites it is still quite a lot of people.

If you look at the Deadlands game, you'll see another complicated backstory with a lot of metaplot behind it. However, they managed to condense it all into a digestible chunk, somewhat smaller than the SR4 history sections. They also remained true to the original concepts, adding new ideas without completely changing the world. They managed to give new players an easy entry point into a very complex world. As far as rules goes, there's some argument that the new Savage Worlds engine lacks flavor, because they used a more unified system for special abilities, rather than a special subsection and splatbook for each one. In comparison, I believe about half the SR4 history and world sections deal with the wireless matrix in one form or another.

The problem here is that future views need to be iconic, not trendy. SR4 copied what was popular, and largely discarded the original views. True, the original concepts were heavy on the 80's paranoia and futurism; but a lot of sci-fi settings are popular even though their views of the future are outdated. Star Wars, Star Trek, Traveller, and Buck Rogers all are icons of sci-fi, even though their technology doesn't happen to come anything close to modern life.

What's made Shadowrun compelling over the years has been the world. It's always been a particular future view, but willing to grow and develop via a mataplot. Sure, some influences were added; but they were additions to the world, not flat-out replacements. Some things in SR4 (most notably the wireless matrix) are good ideas, but were poorly added into the Shadowrun world. What happened was the shiny new toys were hammered into place, and the rest of the world was squished around them to fit. The setting has suffered as a result.

Without going into everything Not Of This World said.

I believe and think Catalyst will be bringing back the love for us gronards. After getting to talk with them they seam to at leased understand the problem and are trying to come up with a good solution without 5e coming out. This is after all the company that does Battletech Classic. Which made all the Battletech fans rejoice, so I tend to believe them when they say that they want to bring back the fun that was the early 90s Shadowrun. It will be different of course but I hope they can do it.

Ditto, don't mind the heat, you just inadvertently kicked over an anthill.

I'm not currently playing a game, so I think it gives me a bit of perspective. I'm willing to give 4e a chance, I'm just hoping that the absence of certain older back-stories doesn't mean it has been tossed.

Also, I liked Earthdawn. I thought it fit well into the the SR mythos that was developing at that time, and it gave you a fantasy setting with a reason to find underground labyrinths full of traps and treasure. I also liked the way some ED concepts were worked into SR. I think that surprised a lot of people though, and they had no idea where this line of thought was coming from. The fact that the push of some aspects (horrors) of ED into SR happened way too fast and way too clunkily didn't help.

I liked things like background count, and I'd love to see spell matrixes in ten years or so. The need to have an artistic skill was also a great push to make even a new gamer see the other aspects of the character. The silly thing is that the story didn't need the complete destruction that it got, playing it out in a slower fashion would have made the conversion much easier.

As for the mechanics, I favor the simplest way possible for pen and paper games. Complex probability is for computer games. I liked the 1e skill tree, and if I were creating the game mechanic from scratch I'd say you get one 6 sided die for any test, add the result to your skill (specialization maxes out at 9) and the target number is 1-15. Defaulting to an attribute is at -4 to your unmodified attribute (before even racial modifiers), having a related skill lessens that to -2 off the lesser of the attribute or the skill. Done, everyone can play with one die, and I didn't change a bit of the history.

Two thumbs up for the way they handled Battletech.

Several figure manufacturers of different scales of Mechs. Several different rule sets, different generations of fans and they handled it neatly with Classic Battletech making all preferred styles of play allowed.

I look at that and often wish they could have treated Shadowrun that way instead of continuing Fanpro's 4th edition mess.

While I think storyline continuity could easily be fixed (2nd edition was in as bad of shape and was fixed)

I don't know what you'd do about the mess that has been made of some of the rule supplements. How do you begin to patch back together the mess that has been made of the Matrix? Plus a lot of rules like character creation, vehicle rules, etc that have been made clunky and unwieldy over 3rd edition? I'm sure it can be done, but by the time you do it you're adding a whole bunch more rules supplements and it would be simpler just to have a different edition.

[Though one idea I had suggested before to a Catalyst employee was to make Sourcebooks have stats for 4th and 3rd edition so that both are supported]

I think you missed the point of CBT, it was to save the old style of play when the IP owning company decided to do their own rules set for the game. Neither FanPro nor Wizkids was the same company. They were both producing different games. As it was at the time, it was a true labor of love. CBT was down to only selling 800 copies of each release (as Randall Bills stated in one of his Mechwarrior presentations). It was truely the interest that the new game generated for background which brought many new players to CBT, well that and WK killing off MW.

Coming in also from a retailer standpoint, I can tell you that SR 4th Ed sold better. Period. As far as it went in our area, the launch of 4th saw a revitalization of a community that had been drifting away, and reinvigorated the player base in our area. The old timers can grumble all they want (and I come from launch day... I was there and have been happily playing since) but I think that 4th has had a marked impact on increasing the interest of players. Most of the people I meet at the Catalyst booth over the last few years since the launch have been returning people who quiteafter third premiered, so its not a case of all the people who used to play walking away. In fact I'd say the opposite is happening.

As to Rob getting "bored" with SR... you can put it that way if you'd like. However I think that he wanted to expand his transhumanist view beyond what SR would be willing to support. As sad as I was to see him go, I talked to Peter quite a bit and was happy with the hands the game was left in. And having played a demo of Eclipse Phase now (Rob's new game) I'd say that there is still some love for all that SR was in that game, just with all sorts of extra fun tacked on.

I'm not a retailer, but isn't the launch of a core rulebook a major selling point anyway? I mean, that was part of the logic behind the OGL for d20: Core rulebooks sold best, so letting others spread the other parts around wouldn't be a big detriment to sales.

People drift in and out of love with games all the time. Part of the reason game companies keep pushing new releases is to keep people interested. Clue, the classic boardgame, just went through a serious makeover for this very reason. I think many people who quit would eventually have come back anyway; the same thing seems to happen with many games.

I think they could have just revamped SR3 and done just as good, sales-wise. Heck, a conversion to d20 would have certainly gotten a lot of attention, and drawn sales along with it. Which is basically what happened-- the two systems are so dissimilar, Shadowrun was essentially converted to a different game engine. But the biggest thing was that they released a new edition. In the RPG market, that's big news, and usually heralds big sales.

sk8bcn,
Welcome to Dumpshock. Just wanted you to know that while lots of people stuck to SR3, there are plenty of long time SR players here like myself who actually prefer SR4.

-JKL

Well the launch of Shadowrun in the Portland, OR area saw all but two retailers drop the franchise at the time. Do I expect a release to do well? Pretty much every release is the best time for sales so tracking sales of the SR3 book before a new edition is released isn't exactly a fair comparison. You need to track the initial releases of both to be comparing Apples to Apples. I know in the Portland area SR3 was in every game store, and a few book stores and hobby stores. But that is one local market and sales in places like Germany can be the complete opposite and more than make up for it.

Since then it has managed to pick up more stores again, but not as many as before plus most don't have as many books sitting on their shelves and moving as they did SR3. Though yes I would agree SR3 was definitely dropping sales with the last few books for the series. The quality of the last few books. Though why would they be interested in quality books for a setting they already had plans to kill off?

Now I wouldn't say all SR3 players or older walked away from the game (you can never take a large population and have a universal truth of 100% of them). But as seen by Dumpshock, rpg.net, mmorpg.com, Shadowrun X-box beta forums, etc a lot of ex-Shadowrun players are still lingering around and vocally upset with the development of SR4. Since recently moving I've also seen that it isn't just Portland and Boston with disgruntled Shadowrun players but I've easily picked up interested people who'd rather play SR3 in Seattle. So we're not some extreme minority that is just exceptionally vocal. Plus some people like Cain play SR4 anyways but remain unhappy about it. For that matter my only old player in Portland who plays SR4 vocally complains about the setting and tells the rest of our old group he'd rather still play 3rd edition with us if he could. So not all those who've moved to 4th edition are entirely happy with the setting either but just playing because it is where things are at currently (easier to get players if the game is sold in stores generally).

I will say I don't know Rob Boyle and I've never heard him try to defend his development of SR4. I do know and saw playtesters who gave some rather harsh results and apparently it was just thrown out. Without hearing any defense I'm left to presuming many undesirable behaviors I'm used to seeing when Managers ignore the QA departments findings.

I like Peter since working with him as an Editor on the Euro SB, but I still don't like the edition and direction he was left with Shadowrun. It would be as disrespectful to the new fans of SR4 to do a 180 on the setting as it was to the old fans to overhaul it so badly.

I don't have access to the sales figures for SR3 vs SR4. That being said, from my understanding, *any* release of a new edition of a popular line will always cause a spike in sales. From what I recall of the old WotC marketing strategy, the goal was to emphasize core rulebooks, since those always sold the best.

But if I recall correctly, you don't need major changes to make a new edition popular. D&D 3.0 and 3.5 weren't that different, mechanically speaking. You could switch a great deal of material back and forth between them. However, 3.5 sold very well for its entire run. So, if the goal was sales, any new edition of Shadowrun probably would have done solidly.

There was one podcast where Rob Boyle discussed a few of the changes from SR3 to SR4. I've long since lost the link, but he basically said it was Steve Kenson who came up with the idea to deliberately copy White Wolf. He considered it ironic, seeing as how White Wolf deliberately borrowed a lot of SR1 dice mechanics. I don't recall that much more of the podcast, but basically they ended up doing something similar to what White Wolf did, and practically rebooted the setting.

As far a Peter goes: he and I have had it out far too many times here for me to be an unbiased judge of character. I will say that I think he gets mad far too easily, and isn't afraid to take it out on vocal fans. I also think he's stubborn, and will cling to a path, no matter what. This can be both a good and a bad trait in a line developer. Kevin Siembieda of Palladium fame is basically the same way; he sticks to what he considers to be the One True Path, and to hell with anyone who stands in his way.

Couple quick things -

1. Post count is not a measure of time spent on a message board. I've been a lurker on here for two years, signed up for an account last year, never got a registration email, walked away for about six months, and came back to find my account mysteriously worked. So the "I see by your post count..." felt a little condescending, personally.

2. Edition flamewars are nothing new or unique to Shadowrun or roleplaying in general. You will always upset someone by moving up editions, and older fans can get pretty stubborn about what is and isn't allowed to change. People were extremely upset that they did a 3.5 for DnD, and really that only changed a few things. Now look at the nuclear war that is DnD 4th. Try being a fan of that game right now.

And as for Star Wars fans? You're talking about people who saw the first movies when they were little kids. Of course the new movies aren't going to be as good, because they're not the movies that the fans had in their heads. I'm a fan of the Prequels myself, but I can see where the warts are. They aren't as good, but that doesn't mean they're terrible and worth the derision that's chic within the SW community right now. New Hope, Empire, and Jedi had just as many problems.
Besides, they gave us the Tartakovsky Clone Wars series, so it's win-win in my book.

3. Point out conclusively where they've completely re-written the world. Do they mention that Dunkelzahn was Humanity's Best Friend, became Prez, and died the same night? That Bug City happened? The Arcology Incident? Yeah, they gave a quick overview of it in the History section and bits and pieces get mentioned when it's relevant to the topic at hand (Hatchetman getting mentioned in the section on cyberzombies) so while it's not as emphasized, it's all still there.

Shadowrun 3rd to 4th is a different than oWoD to nWoD. Shadowrun is still completely Shadowrun, but with some de-emphasis on some of the plot elements. oWoD doesn't exist any more. They kept a name or two, and that's it. That's not even opinion, that's fact; go on, tell me where Sam Haight is or what's going on in the Underworld post-Sixth Maelstrom.

As for Deadlands - when they switched over to Savage Worlds, didn't they completely start back from 1870 to get rid of the mess that had become the metaplot? Or am I just mis-remembering?

With all due respect, can you please explain - in detail - where you think this huge continuity dump happened? Cause I really don't see it and see some huge fallacies in your statement here. For instance:

* Half the world's leaders weren't removed. The Tir /= half the world, and it's unsure what the present situation is precisely. The only leader I can think of that was removed was the sitting UCAS president, and this was due to a conspiracy established in mid 3rd Edition. Tsimshian was "eaten" by the SSC - again /= half the world. So LA got messed up and Pueblo took a good chunk of southern California. Big deal, soCal's been messed up in SR for ages. Addendum - And Pueblo "ate" the Ute Nation (again, big loss).

* "More than half" the megas were not "destroyed". Precisely three of the megas from 3rd Edition have changed in any significant way, namely Cross Applied Technologies, Yamatetsu, and Novatech. Yamatetsu changed it's name to Evo (oooo, big deal), CATco was bankrupted and/or lost it's AAA status during the second Crash, and Novatech (which as you know used to be Fuchi) merged with two AAs (Erika and Transys Neuronet) to form NeoNet. Horizon jumped jumped in to replace CATco. So you're not even close to the ballpark here.

* The second Crash wiped out the majority of the old Matrix, yes. However, the idea of a wireless Matrix was brewing in SR3 ever since Shadows of Europe IIRC. Definitely Shadows of Asia. Technomancers were added (which I agree was a bad idea), but they could (maybe) be seen as an evolution of the otaku.

* As for "diluting" the magic system, the only thing that's really been changed is the Conjuring mechanics, and frankly those have been a screwed up jigsaw puzzle mess even since Awakenings came out back in 2nd Edition and added Vodoun to the nice neat (and artificial ) Hermetic/Shamanic divided. MitS further convoluted the mess by introducing multiple subtraditons (and what spirits they could summon in the case of shamen), many of which are now treated as full traditions in SR4 (big deal). In short, the magic system hasn't been diluted, but rather streamlined - all the flavor of the original variations is still there if you look hard enough. If you'll note, there's enough fluff in SOTA 64 and Shadows of Europe about new magical theories etc coming out - particularly UMT - to support a majority shift in methodology 6 years later.

* What major plot lines have been lost? The Deus/godlike AI/otaku plot line (good riddance), the Winternight plot line (so the leaders got ganked, who cares there could still be cells running around to play with), and the Ares vs CATco plot (big loss, not).

So in short, the huge continuity dump you're talking about seems to me like nothing but an inflammatory overstatement of the natural chain of events that would happen to the 3rd Edition setting if the Matrix crashed again in the manner it did. So I ask again, please, show me where this huge continuity dump is? Cause the only major and dump and overhaul I see is the mechanics, which IMO was (largely) a good thing due to the simplifying factor.



Related to the above - what precisely do you feel is in need of fixing?



I'm sorry Cain, but the change really isn't that big. Fixed targets over variable, one hit to stage rather than two, damage tracked by boxes rather than levels (the old L/M/S/D thing), Edge instead of karma pool, 4 being the new 6, and caps. The only major change I see is caps, and none of it even combined makes the systems radically dissimilar let alone a new engine. Myself and the long time player I have were able to pick most of it up intuitively, checking only a few details.



In all honesty I'm not 100% happy with it either. Specifically, I don't like the technomancers, I don't like AI proliferation, I don't like skill caps, and the Edge mechanics and the Matrix need a good deal of help. But, no game will ever be perfect, and it's better than previous editions in many ways.



With respect to everyone, I think this is true of half the board - including myself.



This is true of virtually anyone who debates in online forums I think. People as a whole do not change their minds until they want to change their minds and feel it is their own idea.



I left D&D over 4th edition. It simply isn't even close to the same game anymore. I stayed with SR in 4th edition - given as anal retentive about SR as I am (it annoys the hell outta my newer players sometimes), that alone is a large statement about the degree of change between SR3 and SR4 that I see.

And let's not refer to players who prefer 4th edition as "fanboys", n'est-ce pas? A preference to the newer system doesn't make one a catamite to CGL or even fanatical for that matter. We're perfectly capable of placing criticism where it's due.

As someone who started with SR1, I consider SR4 to have restored SR closer to it's original flavor. I was hearthily sick of all the baggage from ED seeping into every nook and cranny of SR.

Consider yourself ignored.


Heh, that's funny because I started with 1e and found most of the ED stuff right in with what I expected. I agree they rushed the horror stuff along too quickly and had to kill off the Big D to rectify the situation, but most of the rest I have no issue with.

The IE are not common knowledge in any edition, nor are you likely to meet any of them knowingly. Quite frankly I see large holes in the history as presented by each edition, I really never got too hung up on it, the group I was in at the time treated most of what they heard as wild rumor, and we never actually faced any of the horrors, so it was never really an issue.

I remember the first Harlequin adventure. Our characters weren't war criminals based only upon the fact that the UN wasn't involved, but we did Ok for being utterly ruthless. In the end we cacked that baby dragon in one hit from the Troll's di-kote no-dachi, wiped out the prince's guards in a choke point crossfire ambush (almost killing Mr. Pretty in the process...the poofy little ponce), and stole "Tir 2", the prince's private Banshee, to hock it's parts on the BM for the super-bucks.

Good times...

I have no idea how SR4's release compared to SR3's. But I wouldn't be surprised if SR4 sold less. It's my understanding that the rpg industry has been in decline for a number of years with most vendors selling significantly less books now than they did five to ten years ago (with the possible exceptions of WotC and WW).

That being said, SR3 versus SR4 threads rarely end well. I don't think anyone ever changes anyone else's minds...

Having played RPGs for nearly the entire life of the pen and paper genre, I don't think I've ever seen the community thinking the industry isn't in decline. Yet it is still here. Yes, it is a cyclical business and yes individual games and companies rise and fall, but the industry as a whole is fairly solid as far as I can tell. The only way I really care about it is whether or not I can find a game when I have the time to play.

Ditto.

Also being an sr1 player through sr4 I prefer the sr4 mechanics (still pining for a skill-web though). I actually liked the ED cross-overs, IEs and dragons. All that gave me options. Options to use or ignore. Options for rumors, myths and urban legends. The players never knew how much was true and how much was hog-wash. If I wanted to play prime runners I had prime runner level fluff. None of that stuff mattered too much for street level games though, but it was cool having it available if I wanted to use it.

As in everything in Shadowrun, the real question for the players always is: How much of the what I'm being told is the truth, how much is loosely based on the truth and how much is total fabrication?

I've been on dumpshock since the late 90s and survived the great crash of 02' (art imitates life imitates art)

I disagree 3e vs 4e is very much an oWOD vs nWOD. The mechanics drastically changed and the world got a reboot. Not as drastic of a reboot metaplot wise as nWOD did but a reboot none the least. Also I believe they moved the timeline from 61 years in the future to 65. You might say what does it matter, well much in the way some oWOD fans were outraged at a totally new game, you have Shadowrun fans (some who have had on going games since 89' ) have some major core things change. I don't blame anyone for it some things needed cleaning up for new players to come in but the changes for those of us who have read every novel and own every sourcebook (even limited hard cover 3e) its sometimes a tough pill to swallow.

My opinion is that when a game company does something like this they should release a design document containing why they did what they did. We found that this speeds up play or we wanted to take the focus away from skills and put it into attributes and gear. Justin Achillie was nice enough to email me back and forth after nWOD came out giving me the basics of why they went the route they did and while I still disagree with some of the things they were hoping to do I can see that they did in fact accomplish those goals and this makes that pill easier to swallow.

I also think 4e is probably the best shadowrun rules to date however there are more than a few new problems they have created that were not there before (edge and skill caps being the biggest of the offenders, and whats up with group skills and attributes cost 10BP at character creation but with karma group skills cost x5 and attributes cost x3)

I'm not in a position to judge the state of the industry but I've heard some good podcast interviews (i.e. on Fear the Boot ) that have been very informative about the matter.

I can't judge the world or even the US but I think thats a load of horse stuff in Seattle. We have 2 gaming stores in redmond, 2 in bellevue, 1 in edmonds, 4 in seattle (two of them are mostly boardgames), + barns and noble, & half priced books (6 of them last time I counted) all over the place that have great selections of used RPGs and do well enough in some stores to have their own sections near the front not hidden in the back. 3 of those gaming stores are packed on the weekends. I think when people talk about that they are not looking at indie press or used book sales. There are people in their 50s now who have been gaming forever. I don't think sales of major RPGs is a good way of judging the state of the industry. There are guys still playing 1e AD&D out there, who buy up books from the used book stores. There are the pdf sales, lulu, and a huge indie gaming movement. For the big dogs this is bad news as they have to put out good stuff, one of the reason WOTC 4e isn't selling like they hoped (though still sells well) is you have a % of people like me who think Necromancer and other 3rd party publishers are what made 3.X great and until they are on board we don't have interest in the WOTC stuff. It all boils down to the competition is fierce now, you cant make a game with crappy rules, art, or setting and expect it to sell.

The mechanics changed, yeah. But where is this reboot that everyone keeps talking about? The Awakening happened in 2011. Dunkelzahn awoke in 2012 and started Wyrm Talk. The Crash of '29. Bugs started making in-roads into humanity around the '50s. Dunk became president in 2057 only to blow up the night of his inauguration. The Arcology Incident introduced Deus, who would later end up causing the Second Crash. All of that information is still right there in the corebook and is mentioned in all of the major releases Fanpro / Catalyst has written as of this posting.

As Nightmare put it - one corp imploded (but were going to anyway) and a couple corps changed their names. The Matrix went wireless. That's enough to call this thing a reboot?

I'm really just bonking my head against this guys.

You're not the only one. There's also a fairly logical reason as to why the timeline was pushed from 2064/2065 to 2070, both in terms of story and game mechanics and that's the introduction of the wireless Matrix. There needed to be a believable time gap to establish the Matrix 2.0 and have it integrate into the cultures of Shadowrun. I seriously doubt that five/six-year gap was arbitrarily picked just to dick over 1st/2nd/3rd ed. players, and I'm speaking as someone who has nearly every SR sourcebook published (they're great flavor pieces even if the leaders and power players have changed). Bringing hackers actually into the running team rather than sitting in their moms' basements is hands down the smartest thing SR 4th ed. does.

Not trying to pick a fight - I love PnP gaming and want to see it thrive and do well - but I would suggest listening to the Ryan Dancey interview on Fear the Boot. It is very informative.

I would also say that there is a difference between the state of the hobby and the state of the industry. The industry could die with all the publishers disappearing while the hobby (people playing) could survive based on just what has already been published. But without a healthy game industry with profitable publishers printing new stuff and bringing in new players, the hobby will eventually suffer.

That being said, I agree that there are a lot of good things going on in the RPG industry from PDFs to a proliferation of small press/indie games. But I think the indie press movement might be smaller than you think. Personally, I'm a huge Burning Wheel fan and am having a great time in a Blossoms are Falling... campaign. But despite all the buzz around BW, Luke Crane himself said he's only sold about 5000 copies (can't find the source but you can look at this older sales data he posted on the Forge .

No fight intended Seattle may be the exception but honestly the game stores here can't keep some things in stock. Here you can't throw a rock without hitting some type of gamer (computer, rpg, larp, war, or board). The industry experts constantly talk about how sales are down etc etc but then you have things like cthuhlutech 1st printing that as soon as a box of shiny new books gets opened it vanishes before the retailer can put it on the shelf. Then 2nd printing hits and they don't put in the super cool color pages etc etc and retailers buy them up expecting them to sell and they don't. Because gamers today are not the gamers of the 80s, they expect a higher production value. You need eye candy, good setting/writing, a well playtested system. If you give them that you can't keep it in stock. One of my friend recently joined the gaming industry crowed and they can't keep up with demand for the rule book. They thought they would be lucky to sell 1,000, I think they are up to over 3,000 and counting but they obviously don't want to print too many but at the same time the slow release is hurting sales as some gamers just move on.

PS I have heard the interview with Ryan Dancey. I also heard the Batttletech surprise at Gen-Con was amazing and I suspect that book will be hard to keep up with demand on without overprinting.

Can you give me names from 4th edition of leaders who remained? The end of System Failure established that you can remove all of them in a massive overthrow plus you can invoke the Crash 2.0 and Winterknight to kill off any other world leaders.

All of the Matrix was dumped, not just Deus. Deckers, Otaku, the Matrix itself, to be replaced by "The Wireless" tm that goes beyond the bounds of wireless networks by being almost entirely wireless (people fail to realize that you can't replace the landlines or internet backbones by any currently theorized stretch of technology) and making mechanical devices like guns or bio-electric implants.

In 5 years people have stopped using the new slang to do a retro fad worse than 80s Mohawks in talking like people from the 90s or 00s. Immersion -4 for you!

Oh and I'll agree the Magic system had too many variants and needed simplifying since 2nd edition. But they took this way beyond and started making even mages and shamans similar in conjuring (Their distinguishing differences were NOT spellcasting to begin with). This is quintessential Shadowrun from 1st to 3rd that you've got very different intellectual and emotional magic systems and simply a gloss of style.

I find it funny that you ask what major plot lines have been lost but then start answering it yourself. You know the answers but it goes way beyond the few you listed. All plotlines relating to the Matrix, overthrown governments, overthrown Corps or their overthrown leaders. IEs are being downplayed as Dragons are the replacement "flavor du jour", sorry if you actually liked that elven fantasy setting.
Seen any real Native Americans anywhere in 2070? Hmm. I mean just how far do we need to go with this, or is it so long as we have Lofwyr and Damien Knight we have plotline continuity (WoD still has Cain mythology, etc too it should be pointed out). I could go on about this for days (and I'm bound to already post a book in response) listing not only the things that were dropped, but about the related things that have to be dropped as a result of the things that were dropped. If you refuse to see a continuity dump nobody can force you to, so don't be expecting us to reach through your screen and ring your neck.

They may not have destroyed the actual world like they did in WoD, but they did the next closest thing in destroying the Matrix setting and replacing it and completing rewriting the way the rules of Magic work and replacing the core mechanics.

So we dumped all this for what simplifying factor? Character Creation is a pain, vehicle and initiative interactions are a pain and confusing. Sure Hackers can "hack" in gun combat, but real matrix runs are a major pain and lack much of the fear factor of before. Please describe what this great improvement was from 3rd to 4th edition? I've heard enough about how some players prefer the new fluff setting, but many of us including myself simply don't.



Sure, absolutely agreed to this. The problem is the stuff I object to isn't mere Shadowtalk. It is the actual hard "history" of the book and the premises upon which the world is built.

Now I don't object to an actual 4th edition any more than I objected to a 3rd or 2nd... which is to say not at all.

I object that rather than improving the rule system they simply replaced it and the new one is just as problematic only in different ways. But I've already home ruled the old way to working well so why get a new system to simply do the same?
The Old Matrix system worked when you used the suggestions for integrating Deckers into your group and not trying to treat them the same as a Street Sam. Trying to explain why all the Gangers traded in their old guns for new ones you can hack... well neither myself nor any of my players have gone in for that.

Anyways I think it is enough. Those of you who are really in love with 4th edition aren't going to give it up and start playing 3rd and neither would I care if you did. I'm interested in moving forward and getting back a Shadowrun in development I and many others can really love again as much or more than we love(d) 3rd edition.

Now here is the big money question for those of you so antagonistic to us who aren't fans of 4th edition. Would you rather keep the game in the static direction it is going or find a way to grow the game/franchise by including the majority of SR fans who dislike 4th edition?

I can't stop thinking "Paizo was right" while reading this.
Not because i'd be against SR4 and would like to see a SR version of Pathfinder RPG (heck, 4th is my favourite edition of SR), but because it just makes sense economically.

I think there's a growing market for gaming groups who will not switch over to new editions- and for whom it just wouldn't make sense.
Imagine : you have a bookshelf, or wall, or entire basement or garage full of books for a certain edition of a game you and your group have enjoyed for years, you have a deep and complete grasp of how the rules work, have patched up all the buggy stuff with houserules, have something that really works and now that editions have changed, a steady supply of used material at reduced prices.

Why would you want to change that?

We've seen the division between SR3 and 4, we'll see a split of D&D into Pathfinder and 4e, over here, we have a vast majority of oWoDers (so vast that the new edition's translation actually got cancelled and WoD is clinically dead on a commercial level- but i'm sure there's still aging goths around who have got groups running), we have loads of groups playing third edition of TDE (which in Germany is as synonymous with RPG as D&D is in the US), there's a new print of CP2020...in short, we have a thriving community of vintage gaming.

And there certainly is money to be made by catering to them- it's a smaller market, but with selling PDFs or PODs of older titles, you have a risk-free business model for that.
Of course, we also need new editions to attract younger gamers, editions that adjust to the changes in gamer culture and appear fresh and exiting to younger folks.
And it can't hurt to step out of our grognard manerisms and give them a try, as a new approach to an old product can give a game a focus that a slight overhaul can't provide.
On the other hand, a slight overhaul can do wonders for a working system and might still allow compatibility to older material.

Probably Pathfinder will pave the way for a gaming culture that embraces the parallel existence of different editions.

If someone absolutely wants to play Classic Shadowrun or whatever, well, why not?
You might not be able to convince everyone to follow the change to a new edition.
Once you've reached the point that this is obvious, you might want to take care of that market segment, too.

I got the first printing of Cthulhutech. Haven't played yet but would like to one day. I think WH 40K Dark Heresy is another good example of a very successful recent rpg release.



No antagonism from me but I am actually pretty happy with the direction SR4 is going in. Really looking forward to Ghost Cartels, Feral Cities and Vice.

http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20080822

I'm not so antagonistic, just confused by the these fans. After talking a bit with people working for CGL, I see a big-time story line coming up. I don't know what you equate to static in this case. Hell for all you know seeds were already dropped in some of the books for this stuff, you just haven't read enough 4th ed to notice yet.

Oh, and as to killing off lots of leaders, and the "sacred" matrix you speak of... Systems Failure was a 3rd ed book. Even if the edition hadn't changed, the world would have, and it would have moved on with or without you.

Edit: added a ++ to hobgoblin as well... well played sir, well played!

I see your point and raise you -

http://xkcd.com/386/

Systems Failure wasn't created just as some interesting plot book, it was specifically created as an "End of the World" book ala the ending of oWoD. The development line didn't go "oh we created Systems Failure... now what, make an edition to improve the rules?"

No, the development process was well we have this 4th edition where we changed everything. Lets make 1 quick book to paste over the setting and create some illusion of continuity with our new world where we've fundamentally remade everything.

Yeah, it would be nice if if System Failure had been the result of staying up late one night and hitting upon a really awesome plot idea ala Dunkelzahn's Will... but it wasn't and in my opinion it shows. I have my copy of it as a result of someone being so disgusted with it after buying it they were going to trash it so I kept it as a reference instead.

Well, the PCC did get some mention in Corporate Enclaves, since LA is a part of their nation. That was mentioned in 2062, 3rd Edition, as part of Shadows of North America (pg 85). So it is following a continuous plot.

But the reason you've seen very little of the NAN is because the majority of books published so far have been core rules books, not "fluff" books. Augmentation, Arsenal, Street Magic, Unwired, Runners Companion. The two main fluff books have been location books. Emergence mentioned the NAN (Kivanet anyone?).

As far as plot goes, there hasn't been the plot line releases the other edition had... yet. But Catalyst getting out the 5 core rules books, plus three location books (including Feral Cities), plus a major plot book/written adventure arc (Ghost Cartels)... the plot will be moving forward. Deciding to focus on the core rules books was a decision made by the Powers-That-Be and one that I personally think was wise (YMMV). Should they have ditched one of those books to put something else out instead?

while i love to read both. for some reason the stickfigures of xkcd comes across as overly self-righteous more often then preferable. but yes, nice one

i guess i was half expecting it right after hitting "add reply"...

I couldn't have said it better myself. The only way there is still continuity is they didnt rewrite the history like nWOD. If White Wolf had instead said Cain came back the Werewolves died and the Technocracy won and life goes on in a totally new game but it used to be that way. Then nWOD would have done the same thing as Fanpro. TSR did it with FR twice now, Time of Troubles and 4e. I even like a good chunk of all the new settings but trying to deny that it happened is silly (no offense intended), you don't have to rewrite the history to reboot the world.

My only real big problem with 4e is rules that either A. didn't get playtested enough(Edge? hello, a guy with 6 edge is way more powerful in a typical 4 hour SR missions game than the guy with 3) B. they didn't listen to the playtesters or C. make no logical sense (the whole thing of attributes and group skill costs at character creation vs improving with karma) I expected some sort of reboot. Big D dying was a reboot so its not like its been the first time.



I don't want to go backwards that improves nothing, the older editions had their own set of problems. I am hopeful that Catalyst will continue with 4e perhaps adding more optional rules that will be allowed in Missions play (I think it is very important that Missions games be allowed to have optional rules applied, for playtesting reasons if nothing else). Then gathering information about what works, what does not work and going with the majority when 10 years from now we have 5e. I also want the developers to cater to the spirit of 1e and the majority of players not the whiners like myself. If the majority disagrees with me that technomancers should not be a standard option and be moved to runners companion then ill keep whining but go with the majority unless they want something that goes completely against the 1e spirit. For example I hate the point buy system and qualities and think those should both be in the runners companion but I believe I am in the minority in both therefore I don't expect Catalyst to change that on my account. If Catalyst wants the old timers back then need to regain our trust that was lost with Fanpro (some would say late FASA) bringing back the 1e and giving us the best rules ever (even if spread across 9 books as optional rules) if they do that then they will bring us back into the fold and have a well playtested and approved by majority system for 5e core. Big changes are upsetting but if you can make it a real improvement we will change eventually.

PS. that comic xkcd... HILARIOUS

[EDIT] Honestly as much as I love the 1e feel of Metahuman A etc I think if your going to do a pt based character gen you should throw out the legacy and build it balanced but have options for character creation to increase the price of metahumans & magic. Let the GM choose