Right here "Emergence - Noone knew of Deus, the Arc history, it\'s all actually been secret all along! " This statement is correct in part - the Arc history was common knowledge (ie bad things happened many people died), but I don't recall Deus's existence ever been common knowledge to the general public prior to SR4. That is contradicted by the statements in Emergence however that state the existence of AIs is a major scare point for the public due to the Arc. The problem then would largely seem to be Emergence (in Unwired people may recognize them as sentient but it's debatable whether Joe Average actually trusts them or not).



Agreed - there's no reason to play music files on your jacket (for instance) - that's what a commlink is for.



I've wondered about that too actually.



3 of 10 (30% as opposed to 80% - sorry I'm being anal here) isn't really that close in my book. NeoNet is still in large part Novatech/Fuchi America from what I understand, and Evo's change in direction is largely a management shift thing. I agree on Horizon though - I thought the same thing ("who the fuck are these guys now that I've never heard of before?") when Wuxing and CATco came on the scene actually.



? Unwired is where I recall the statements about a wired backbone from.



Actually the Civil War isn't really brought up that much - racism has become a separate issue almost. In regards to the analogy though, I simply don't feel that a 4 (or 40 or 400) page write up about WWII would be necessary to make people understand that the war changed what was before and shaped the face of Europe afterward. That could be done in a half page - same goes for the Ghost Dance war IMO.



Yes, came with it (my old one died and I needed a new one).

Relative was the key word there I acknowledge there are a number of things that require tweaking, many of which you mentioned (Magic ratings don't come out quite right either btw IIRC). I wouldn't say it's easier per se to rebuild, but it is more efficient (btw a 500 bp start better models 3rd edition characters).

I think however whether or not it's a different engine is largely a matter we are going to have to agree to disagree about.



Sorry, my bad.



If that was the extent that a gun could be hacked I wouldn't have an issue with it.



Which would be preferable? A "poofed" wireless Matrix, or the Matrix-less mess the SF left behind?



This is entirely possible - it depends entirely on what compromises both groups are willing to make. Any real action of course is entirely in Catalyst's hands, but we can at least attempt a compromise amongst ourselves.

Megacorporate Power, however, does not. You are completely failing to accept one of the major tropes of the entire cyberpunk genre. You are also vastly overestimating the mass populace's ability to reason and not be sheep and lemmings.

However, since you refuse to even entertain a differing opinion, I'm done here. Have fun.

Bull

Good thing you're willing to entertain opinions differing from yours.


That's how the Ghost dance War was handled in SR1. Now, it's a footnote, taking a backseat to half a page on why car engines have gone wireless all of a sudden.


What about "AIs are predominately seen as benign or even friendly" (unwired, p. 31) is debatable?

Honestly, I replied poorly. I was at work and was rushed. My apologies

What I mainly meant was this: I'm explaining the in-game rationale for part of what brought about the Wireless World of Shadowrun. It's more or less fact. Corps are big, corps control 99% of everything about "everyday life" in Shadowrun. So when they decide to do something, it happens. That's a fact.

You and Not of the World obviously disagree with that, and since you're disagreeing with one of the underlying tenets of both Shadowrun and Cyberpunk in general, there's not really any point for this to go forward. My opinion is "SR, as is, works fine because I accept the power of the Megacorp". Your opinion is different. We're at an impasse, and I don't feel the need to butt heads with anyone over that. It's how arguments get started, flame wars erupt, and we get massive migraines as Moderators. So I'm bowing out.

Again, my apologies if you felt insulted.

Bull

Megacorps being the biggest, baddest power players in SR is the core concept for me. I felt in the SR2/SR3 days that this had been watered down a bit too much for my taste, with all the IE hype and stuff. I especially cannot stand Ghostwalker. Lofwyr I see not so much as a GD, but as the owner of Saeder-Krupp, so I've got no problem with his power.

If they happen to all agree on something, yes. Does this happen often?


Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

I don't disagree the megas are the big powers of the SR world, much as noone would disagree that China, the US and Europe are the big powers IRL. However, much like these countries, megas are the biggest playeras on the block, but in my view of things are not omnipotent. They cannut mage the sky turn bright yellow and the moon turn into cheese. They cannot defy the laws of physics, and they cannot act as a deus ex machina the way 4th has used them with both the wireless Matrix (why the Crash? It would have worked if it had just been five years of tech hype and transistion from wired to wireless. It took less time for the DVD to replace the VCR) and Tir Taingire, which is what NotW and I are primarily upset about.

I feel the transistion to the wireless Matrix was bumpy at best, and it's been ridiculously overdone with even engine parts turning to wireless communication for god knows what reason (Arsenal) and wireless Matrix backbones (Unwired). However, I could propably live with that. But reading "Horizon mediablitzed this'n'that and now it's turned upside down and everyone loves that because they've been mediablitzed" all over SR4 is a great strain. No, marketing cannot work magic. And no, mass manipulatzion spells of that magnitude wouldn't work in SR without someone finding out (and would propably require the Books of Harrow).

I don't see how this would be at the core of the cyberpunk idea.

Oh, and apology accepted.

Well, I will see what SR 4 will have to give. Anyway, once I reach this point, there will be a lot of material out already (Catalyst will have time to find his marks anyway).

I always tought that the Cyberpunk-style sometime pushed the power of megacorps to far and I appreciated that they were not the only rulers of the world in shadowrun. I found that more realistic.

I had once a game at a convention where the GM was running the game like: "they are average people, they're stupid and don't get anything but you are shadowrunners and see the corps foul-play."

I found that stupid and naive.

Everyone certainly know that Microsoft loves to make some contestable choices in order to keep their leadership. But I still have Windows running on my PC. If I was working for a compagnie that did some shit, I would feel bad about it, ashamed, but I certainly wouldn't throw off my job whatsoever.


I'll see what will come with SR4. But that Mediablitz story seems a bit stupid in the first hand. Unless they plan to demonize either magic and AI.

In SR4 it gets about a half page (ie one column) split between pages 25 and 26. Hardly a footnote. The wireless matrix gets one paragraph, not counting the explanation of the second Crash (Crash 2.0 is such a lame term IMO). I'm sorry Hermit but your case is rather weak.



This is in character information, and IC comment on the results of polling undertaken to determine the effectiveness of media blitz. We know polls are not dependable IRL, and it's a good bet Horizon is the one doing the polling - media spin anyone? And second hand comment on media spin? In short IC comments do not necessarily equal reality. My opinion.



Yes! White piece of flying crap fucked up Denver and (legally at least) made it into his private playground. You wanna talk about messing with a setting there ya go.



Getting business back in motion would be the one sure fire thing they'd agree on.

It's repeated, albeit not as eloquently, in RC.


Well yes. Changes nothing about that that's how the public is supposed to view AIs.


Polls are reliable enough to be useful, otherwise, noone would waste money on them.- And Horizon is far from having a media monopoly - all Megas have their pet media, and before Horizon mediablitzed into existence, they were all supposed to be quite good at spinning their shit to look good and smearing other corps. But apparently, media blitz works on other media organisations too.


YotC was loathed for good reasons, yes.


Yes, propably, though why this requires car engine parts, guns and underware to integrate wireless computers and communicate with the world is beyond me. It's not a bad idea in principle, but crudely executed.

I think the final thing that makes me crack up here is the dichotomy presented by some of these arguments:

Argument 1: Catalyst hates us and doesn't give us any big plotlines and and stuff no more :pout:
Argument 2: The changes to the world, while supported by big plotlines and world changing events we want, weren't exactly what we wanted :pout:
Argument 3: The new corp playground is wrong cause it shouldn't have happened and Horizon sucks :more pout:

Even though its quite possible that the Horizon thing might be its own plot, that like Bugs, takes a few years to unfold. Because its not what people want, or expected, and because its part of the "New Edition" mentality however, it needs to be pounced on, and torn apart.

It sounds more like what you really want are "static" plotlines and not a growing, changing world with SR. You want only certain things to be "plot-able" and for all other changes to stay out of "your" world.

We don't want asinine changes that feel totally forced into the setting. What's so difficult to grasp there?

Also, I'd like to see where you get Argument 1 from.

Two problems here.

Shadowrun is not entirely Cyberpunk and never should be. Ancient magical cultures can rise up and fight the powers of technology.

Second, even cyberpunk isn't entirely that way. That is a large part of the gangs and other counter-culture revolutionaries come in. If anyone has ever seen Johnny Mnemonic you'll notice the wage slaves go about believing what their employers tell them but the gangs and rebels living in the gutter know better than to believe ANYTHING the corps tell them. In fact various social groups rebelling against the corps this way is common to pretty much all the Gibson novels and part of where Cyberpunk gets the "punk" from. All this to say why should it be even more in favor of the Corps in the Shadowrun setting?

They are in the main book. One assumes those who couldn´t cope died during the days the wireless matrix was taken online?

I don't know why people can't simply do like I do, and cut the party they do not like if they know better what's good for their campaign. No one forces me to use all the Earthdawn sillyness, for example.

These are by far the two most insightful posts of about the whole topic.
(1) Whats done is water under the bridge. Catalyst is not about to reset/reboot/undo anything already done (at least I hope not). I don't like all the things that have been done, but this is a shared universe. Like in RL, things occur that we/you don't agree with/understand/fathom. A far more constructive use of your time would be to discuss specific future events you would like to see.
(2) Use the material you like for your campaign, ignore the rest. Its really that simple.

If the official Catalyst feedback becomes some version of "Like or Leave it" which is just another way of saying what you're proposing then don't worry I will leave all hope of Shadowrun 4th edition being anything worthwhile behind.

But personally I would hope that as previous customers who love buying good Shadowrun products that Catalyst would be interested in what would make SR3 fans like myself, my players in Oregon, and my new playing group I'm starting here in Seattle, and all the others current and moved on from dumpshock who dislike 4th to want to move to 4th edition.

Sometimes when you love something (like my kids) who don't give up on them even when they make you mad. Even when you feel the need to spank their rear over things they've done.

You're an admin so I'd hope you'd have enough passion for the game to understand this. If Catalyst announced a 5th edition tomorrow that was a complete rewrite of the mechanics and story (lets assume they announced they're going back to Shadowrun 3.5), how happy would you be? and would you immediately turn your back and walk away from Shadowrun or would you try to convinced people of a different course of action? Would you buy the books when they came out not matter how different they are from the setting you love?

would you? or can you understand where the 3rd edition fans are coming from?

A slow evolution. Corporate battles over the new wireless standards. Clashes of technology, as one brand tries to dominate the others (and wins, see the recent HD DVD and Blu-Ray battle). Shadowruns going hard and fast between corps. In other words, something to play through, rather than sit back and watch. What's more, accept customer feedback during the scenarios (via Dumpshock or other online venue) and start tailoring the new setting to match what the players have been doing. This method has been successful for Shadowrun Missions, so I don't see why something similar wouldn't work.

We could apply this to other areas of the game as well. As magical theory evolves and the UMT starts to appear, fights start emerging over entrenched beliefs and new powers. A hermetic suddenly develops the ability to spontaneously summon spirits in the middle of a firefight. There's lots of room for adventure and growth that was simply handwaved away.


We're all different people, so we all want different things. That's natural. Shadowrun has always been something of a toolbox game.

But to address your points: No one here has said anything resembling "Catalyst hates us". Some people have said that FanPro wasn't listening when they developed SR4, and provided evidence to that effect. Catalyst is a new development, and we'll see where that goes. That being said, the SR4 team is relatively intact from the Fanpro days, so time will tell if they're really more receptive to feedback, of *whatever* stripe.

Argument 2: The changes to the world were not supported by major plotlines; they were designed to kill them as thouroughly as possible. We were also handed them as a fait accompli, and not as a playable adventure or game aid. Shadowrunners might not have been able to do anything to keep Dunkelzahn from dying, or change his will; but there was an awful lot of playable material that came out of it. The Crash 2.0 is detailed out, second by second, and there's *nothing* you can do to change the events that unfold. All you can do is convert systems, if you want to keep playing.

Argument 3: I have no idea where this came from. If you're referring to the fact that it stretches believability, and is essentially a massive handwave, then I still don't see how this translates to "Horizon sucks". We're just pointing out that saying "media blitzes are 100% effective at totally swaying the minds of people" really pushes the suspension-of-disbelief required to enjoy a game.

We don't have to like everything that has happened; but retcons can and do happen. Besides which, discussing past mistakes is just as constructive as discussing future ideas. You learn from the past.

funny thing is that this is exactly what im seeing over at the fanforum for that other cyberpunk rpg.

its gone so far that one person have created his own version of the bare rules system, and anyone talking about the new version of the setting is branded a heretic.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DisContinuity

funny thing is that fanpro/catalyst left us with a 5 year gap where we could tie up our loose ended/plot-threads and then move over. swapping rules set mid game is nasty stuff anyways...

I've always seen the AAAs as tools of powers, not centers of powers.
If the corps where the "end boss" of every plot, than the SR universe would be quite empty.
Leaders of a megacorp must have hidden schemes and backstories, and saying that "money runs the world" is only partialy true : its those that hold that money that runs the world.
And usualy those guys/gals, have some motives.
Be it "help the world" like Dunky, or bring death and destruction like the horrors behind AZ, they will have an ideology that give them motives and directions to act.
In SR, sure there are the IEs and GDs behind a lot of plots, but you can add quite a lot of other big players : the church, the Black Lodge, Ordo Maximus.
While it's dumb to link all world shacking plots to those kind of players, its not illogical to have most of those plots linked to those players.
After all, if we consider that some people fight for the supreme power, we can assume safely that only a few would actualy be able to succeed (if any) and would destroy any potential threat to their power before it rises to any significant level of power.
So, if you recognise that in SR there are some hidden (or not so hidden) powers, such as GDs, then its entierly natural that these beings run the show : who's going to stop them ? A bunch of old guys in corp suits meeting monthly to improve their revenue ?
I doubt it. Hell, if a GD would want to take power in a corp that doesnt have some serious back up, i dont see what could stop him ? (mass mind control is the most brutish way of doing it ...)

So please, keep the fluff logical, and give us back some nice plots like in the old times, with GDs and IEs

For some of us, it's rather illogical that the corps would be so easy to take over.

I think that is really the key for people who like an older edition. They are in kind of a bind of cleaning up a mess they did not create. I don't think that 4e will ever make pre-4e people happy but I think they can through metaplot and optional rules gain the trust of the old timers and come up with something tolerable. Then PLAYTEST, PLAYTEST, PLAYTEST, and FEEDBACK, FEEDBACK, FEEDBACK, like Not of this World said "who counts on feedback?" my grain of salt suggestion (because I am no expert)

CONCERNING RULES
Use willing missions GMs to playtest new optional rules (it can just be a form with check boxes for optional rules used in that game) and have players submit feedback for points, that can be used for swag.
Develop a database with what works and what does not work. Go into 5e with as much data as possible so the developers can make informed decisions and the fanbase won't be caught off guard.

CONCERNING METAPLOT
Come up with a concept for the story arc and make sure all the authors (freelance and otherwise) know whats coming so they can work with it, drop hints etc. Make sure that enough is known that the authors don't contradict each other and that the fiction can drop really subtle hints that make the forums jump with rumor.

OTHER
Release a special limited reprint of 1e in 2009 as a 20th Anniversary Edition

Well imagine the power available to a GD, just with magic.
I'm not talking about his potential wealth, physical prowess, insanely high inteligence level and experience.
Just plain magic : if you dont have a whole bunch of very high grade initiates (at minimum) to protect your administration council, then how can you expect to keep control of it versus a very high powered mage like any GD ?
He can know all their secrets, can control their actions/emotions, may have a free spirit for each of them to take care of, at levels of power unatainable for the classical high grade initiate.
And he could do all this without being noticed.
So, a corp that doesnt have serious back-up would be in big troubles.
And again, i'm talking about not so clever moves.
Look at Lofwyr's schemes to take over SK
It was clever, and 100% legal so that he did not face any problems afterwards ...

Crash 2.0, the wireless matrix, and the new players in the matrix are a paradigm shift, but they are not a reboot/restart/retcon. This is not the first time that SR has had a big change nor will it be the last. While Catalyst can shift the SR4 world in many different directions going forward, they are not going to undo past events and retcon away the existing 4th Ed. changes.

As for running two editions at the same time, that did not work very well for Earthdawn.

Now with regard to how fast the world rebuilt from Crash 2.0, I always saw it as analagous to Americas WWII build up. Anyone comparing what the SR Megas did to rebuild to the present day as reasoning for why it could not happen should look at how quickly America went from the great depression late thirties to the early forties where we were a global power unlike anything seen by humanity in history.

As for hacking everything, the game does basically say you can, but it deliberately leaves what such hacking can accomplish up to the gamemaster. A couple examples using what many have said should not even have wireless.

• Non-smartguns – as pointed out above just because a gun has a digital readout, and said readout has a wireless interface does not mean that you can take over the guns functionality, it just means that the ammo count could be spoofed. This might make someone reload early if they rely too much on such a readout, but it's not going to cripple their gun.
• Bone-lacing – while one could argue that there is no reason to have any connectivity in such a product there actually is. Micro sensors in the lacing would be able to report to medtechs details of fractures or breaks. If you were getting such bone-lacing for reconstructive purposes (not shadowrunning) you would want this feature. In real life already we have sensors that can be implanted in ligaments to track movement and damage. However hacking these sensors would not let you hurt anything nor would it effect a fight. You could however set off an alert that would make a doc think that damage was greater or lesser than it actually was. I have personally seen cadaver experiments using such sensors on whole limbs and spine segments, as well as such sensors in bone replacement surgery.

I have no doubt that the average wage-slave would like the functionality of having everything in their home connected. Your refrigerator keeps track of the soymilk for you, so that your bot can restock it (if your rich enough the food would be delivered otherwise the shopping list pops up in your vision as you leave work.) Even the coffee maker would be better wireless, it would always make the coffee just as you actually get up so it is fresh and hot by the time you are out of the shower. With wireless comms, nobody "forgets" other peoples names nor appointments.

Essentially I always saw 4th Ed. as a way to make SR technology better fit where we are going now, without erasing the games past.

A paradigm shift would be like Dunkelzahn's will. A very well written plot book which started all kinds of new things in motion, but didn't suddenly terminate vast amounts of the SR universe.

System Failure/ SR4 are absolutely a "restart" because it doesn't just start a new direction, but officially is ended to put the way you've been playing things to a crashing halt.

Worst of all there was a big difference in the why. Dunkie's Will was a paradigm shift because the developers at the time stayed up late one night thinking of all kinds of fun things that would twist the universe. System Failure was the devs sitting around trying to figure how to restart the universe with all the new rules they wanted to throw in that absolutely clashed with the universe. The approach showed in how fun and usable the two resource books are.

P.S. - checking ebay the going price of System Failure is half the price of Dunkelzahn's Will. What does that say?

I find it interesting the constant need to downplay that System Failure/4th ed was a dramatic restart/retcon/reboot of the game. I mean seriously how many of you were actually able to take your 3rd edition characters, transfer them to 4th, and continue working with the same GM stories/plot lines?

Mainly, that one of them is a 10+ years old, out-of-print sourcebook that by now is 2 editions behind, while the other is... not.

So you're saying older editions are worth more than 4th edition?

or books suddenly go up in price when they're out of print?

Both, in a way. Older editions are "worth more" because they are (usually) out of print, no longer published, and therefore, hard to get. This has nothing to do with 4th edition being of "less value", but if a product is readily available to the market, then there iis really no reason for buyers to pay more than the standard retail price.
Really.

...or people really really liked Dunkelzahn.


Again: Bug City, Renraku Arcology, Year of the Comet...


Allow me to translate here: "I liked Dunkelzahn's Will! I don't like System Failure!"


People really like dragons, and some people (like me) have a real nostalgia kick for old supplements?


I find it interesting that you consistantly point to this book and say, "there! There! That's the man officer!" But there are conversion guides for characters linked right on the front page. And really, unless you had something going on with whichever company it was opening itself up for sale the day of Crash 2.0 (sorry, afb), then your plots weren't exactly shoved out the door.

Look. All of this boils down to one thing and one thing alone: You liked 3e, you really liked the plotlines going on in 3e, and you were upset that System Failure brought it all down in one fell swoop. It was a double middle finger to your face that 4e would come out soon after.

And that's what this all primarily is about. You have a preference for one set of material and can't abide that the new material doesn't resemble it. That's fine, that's your preference. However, you feel a consistant need to point out how the new material doesn't resemble the old edition and how that's just wrong wrong wrong. You're becoming noise.

It's been pointed out to you over and over again that really, not much has changed in the world. A few megacorporations changed names, a nation suddenly had a new regime installed (which smells to me like there's a plotbook waiting in the wings), and one of the big plotlines ended. That's about it. In face of this, you've decided to overblow the situation and claim that this isn't Shadowrun any more. To which I say, "in your opinion." Which is what this whole thing is about.

I was immature in using the language and terms that I threw out in that first response to this, but really, you're starting to let your message carry on into threads that really have nothing to do with this. Your thread "fixing" Shadowrun is a start towards something you'd like; there was a thread on this forum awhile back on incorporating some of the 4e stuff into the 3e rules set. You might find that interesting.

But for the love of Dunkelzahn, this is getting embarrassing. You're stomping your foot and saying, "this isn't MY Shadowrun! Give it back!" So do what the old school DnD fans have been doing the last year and a half: play your chosen edition and write material that you like. No one from Catalyst is going to stop you and hey, people might like to hear what you have to say about it. It looks like you're already starting to take that step - focus your energy there instead of getting all worked up here.

As for myself, I'm stepping out of this conversation and further conversations of this type, as I'm the sort that gets jumpy on a keyboard when it comes to matters of opinion. If I have crossed a line here, I apologize and accept whatever punishment comes of it.

I was at GenCon digging through a retailer's milk crates looking for 1st ed. adventures, specifically DNA/DOA, but anything that could easily be tweaked to fit a 4th ed. adventure. Those 1st ed. adventure modules were marked at $20-25 because they were out of print. It made my jaw drop because those things couldn't be more than 25 pages total and they weren't particularly rare. I mean $30 for Ivy and Chrome? Come on. The DMZ and Denver: City of Shadows box sets were going for $50.00 each. I wanted DMZ but couldn't justify the expense. Late second (most which seemed to revolve around insect spirit conspiracies) and most third ed. stuff was selling at cover or 1/2 price. Though I did luck out and picked up Dreamchipper and Imago for $8 total.

well personally I have read most of this topic and I cant help but to think that some people need a reality check but then what the heck everyone has a right to have is hown opinion.

personally my 3ed shadowrun ended is existance early as target practice for my smith and wesson 357 magnum.

a fitting end.

up to last year we sticked to 2ed shadowrun.

4ed is everything I ever wanted in a SR universe. The unified system is great ( with a coupple easy fix at worst) and its fast and its fun.

I play a technomancer and I have played phys ad and I am totally happy with them.

of course if some people want to stick to 3ed stuf its their right but for the love of god no split system! all the attempt to do dual system supplement have been abyssmal failure ( like legend of the five ring Roll and Keep / D20 or deadland classic/d20). Diverting ressource to make previous edition material is the perogative of fans, no compagny should carry the dead weight and while exact conversion are impossible, you can use your imagination to extrapolate material you like in your game.

now if you really want to see how to scrap a world take a look at the new edition of cyberpunk.

Really SR4 is the best compromise and re-edition in the RPG industry! even D&D 4ed aint close to it.

As stared previously, the changes aren't a paradigm shift. They're a total reconfiguring of the world. Dunkelzahn's Will was a major change in the setting; but it didn't totally change the world. Something along the lines of the Will would have been a welcome change. Resetting the entire matrix from the ground up was not.


The Great Depression was something of a different story. First of all, no infrastructure was destroyed during the Depression; companies simply didn't have the money to hire people to run the equipment. Second, it wasn't until FDR's New Deal and massive influxes of government money that we really started to recover. And third, if you look at your history, it wasn't until after WWII started that the economy fully recovered, largely thanks to Europe spending a lot of money buying weapons from us. That massive influx of cash is what made us into a global power. We didn't enter WWII until fairly late in the war, after Pearl Harbor. And after all was said and done, we were the only major player with its manufacturing infrastructure intact, which helped us become a major power after the war was over.


Let's assume you are an average wageslave. Is your fridge less than five years old? What about your coffee maker? How many things in your house are more than five years old? And that's assuming that the Corps were able to magically develop a unified wireless system for everything the moment Crash 2.0 occurred. More likely, wireless function household appliances took a few years to reach the market, and didn't occur in everything all at once. So, the average wageslave of 2070 has a home with no appliances more than two or three years old, including cars. That just doesn't happen.

And don't say "media blitz!" They're media blitzing SUVs and large trucks right now, and it's not working. People simply cannot afford to change cars every three years, let alone every single appliance in their house.

In that case, why can I find stacks of 1st ed books going for less than $5? They're older and out of print.

It IS a matter of popularity. Some older books are quite expensive, and others aren't. Just try chasing down a copy of Bug City or the Denver boxed set on ebay; you'll pay a fortune for them. Others, not so much.

Have you *tried* using the conversion guide? It doesn't work. If your character had a ton of karma under his belt, he might walk away only crippled; but if you had a newer character, you can easily end up with a character who is worse than a native starting SR4 character. For example, I had a human mage I tried to convert. She ended up with an Edge of 1, which isn't even possible for starting SR4 humans.

As far as plotlines go, if you were running a lot of different things, your story just died. Anything to do with otaku? Dead. Running for or against Winternight? Dead. Working for Shadowland Seattle, under Captain Chaos? Dead. And even worse, you couldn't do anything about it except sit on your thumbs for five years, until they rebuilt the world by the megacorps coming down and waving their magic wands.

No. SR4 and System Failure are inextricably linked. System Failure was explicitly written to kill of SR3, and introduce SR4. In fact, System Failure wasn't released until *after* SR4 was, forcing a lot of players to stare and say "WTF!" for a while. System Failure is really just an expanded version of the history chapter in SR4, designed as an apology for the changed they were making.

Wrong. There are those of us here who love Shadowrun. And what we're afraid of is that what we're getting isn't Shadowrun anymore. New Coke might have come in the same cans as Classic coke, but it wasn't the same thing at all.

No, you are wrong.
All your points are invalid.

quick note: this post is not directed at anyone in particular, it's more of a jab at the general style in which this "discussion" is conducted

Very fitting Userfriendly strip

Because they aren't rare. I can go to any used book store with a RPG section and buy 10 of the things for 10 bucks. Core books in any RPG system are never rare. Expansions and modules are, depending on their print runs. Rarity is not a way to judge popularity.

I do like accidentally falling into the middle of an ongoing flame to find someone urinating on the embers, lifts my day.

I am sticking with SR3, that is not because I think SR4 is bad. It is not, it is a well thoughout solid product that will carry the IP onward and fixed some previous ed's problems. Unlike SR1-3 however it has yet to be destruction tested by the mad, bad and dangerous to know fan base. So unlike previous ed's you don't know where the system pitfalls are and what nasty tricks could wreck a game. The meta plot arc for SR4 was radical but look at what the inspiration of William Gibson in his cyber punk novels. Break neck advancement means soon everything changes. Except those absolutes that never change.

At the end of the day however the fundemental truth of this is that every game has a slightly different take on what 'Shadowrun' is. The shared collective impression of the game world for each group is by its nature different, as the component individuals mix to generate a unique impression within general conceptual boundries.

In short go and enjoy your personal games. Why does everyone have to agree with your take? As long as your gaming group have a strong shared vision of what Shadowrun is it is irrelevant even if the Dev's put in something different to that view.

Even with that, I can find tons of expansion and module books on Ebay for cheap. Certain ones, however, are extremely pricey, despite the fact they didn't have a different-sized print run. Just try running down a copy of Lone Star, or Tir Tairngire for that matter. You'll be lucky if you can find it for less than $50.

The rarity factor comes in because the books are popular, and people aren't willing to part with them. Certainly, it'd take a lot for me to part with some of my Shadowrun collection.


All very true. BUT:

What happens is that we all love the Shadowrun concept. We may have different takes on it, but the fundamental concepts remain the same throughout. You can tinker around with those concepts, and be fine: look at Star Trek and all its iterations as an example. They're all variations on a theme. It's when you change that underlying theme that you start running into trouble.

I guess I am lucky as I picked up the Lone Star Sourcebook for $10 and Tir Tairngire for $15. I haven't paid any more than $25 for a Shadowrun sourcebook over eBay, with the exception of Rigger 3 which I got screwed on. There's always people looking to unload their SR collections and there are those who think they can fleece you.

I ran down my copies at used book stores, the prices are usually better there. After looking on Ebay, however, you can't even find them. Last time I saw it, the Denver boxed set was going for over $50. I know I sold my copy of Dunkelzahn's Will for $45, and that was *years* ago. That was the price it reached in open bidding, too. On the other hand, I can find lots of old modules and expansions on Ebay for under $6.

Man, if you grabbed Lone Star for 10, I'm envious.

TT for 15, I'm not sure. I bought it when it came out, so I dunno what it goes for these days.

given the timing of that tech support arc, im starting to suspect that illiad plays SR

I have the feeling that the discussion/opposition between SR3 and SR4 will last for long.

I, at least, will:

Conduct a campaign through every big events of SR2/SR3 under SR3 ruleset, up to System Failure as very last set of the campaign.

Then start a fresh one under SR4.


If SR4 offers good plots, I will be glad with it. Bah things has to come at an end one day, no? And an apocalytic end isn't that bad, no?



Oh, on a side note: if big corporatist names are 50 in 2055, they're 65 in 2070. Most of the humans corporatists big names should change one day or another.

leonization?

Ok, this thread is going nowhere. SO I have a couple things to say, then I'm closing the thread.

RESPECT EACH OTHER'S OPINIONS. And if a disagreement occurs and you cannot come to a mutual understanding within a handful of posts, walk away.

Understand that different people play Shadowrun different ways. Just because you don't agree with them, does not make them wrong.

If there's a specific point from this thread that you want to discuss still, open a new thread. But remember my advice above, and play nice with others.

Bull