SR Plotline Options

[Jhaiisiin]

The issue with guns (or anything else) being hacked is rather silly. Any professional would have the wireless flat out removed on his weapons right away. Fiber optic cable sewn into the sleeve of your armor/jacket/shirt is a *far* safer way to go. Hell, even sticking with the old ware idea, and making it a skinlink would work.

Yes, the stock, default configuration comes prepared for wireless hookups. Doesn't mean you can't disable them.

[NightmareX]

Do I think the New Revolution planned to stop at taking over the UCAS? Absolutely not, but then it is a stretch to say that the "good ol' boys" were so good at it they were able to really mess up the Tir and NANs (per System Failure).

I was of the understanding that they took the UCAS and maybe managed a couple of assassinations in the NANs. What I meant is that I expect to see further plot developement on this one.

No prob regarding the Tir.

How much do you want? Major chunks of previous SR sourcebooks are now invalidated by quickly glossing over the changes that have happened. I will try to do my best to give you what you think you need if you're serious about it.

I am serious, but I must admit I'm not sure if either of us will be able to change the other's mind truthfully. So I'll leave it to your discretion ok? I don't want to waste your time and effort but at the same time would like to see what you mean precisely (especially if it means I'm missing things that need fixing or explanation).

I've played 4th edition and I've not seen combat flow any smoother than before......Build points for 3rd were simple and I could whip up complete characters in 20 minutes and have time to start writing backstories. Even veteran 4th edition players have had trouble putting together basic characters for 4th edition for me, and the back and forth, back and forth to create the character is silly.

I think this boils down to a YMMV thing. It's significantly faster combat for us, and bp character creation takes us about a half hour in either system (for me and my veteren player).

Familiarity of the old system has to be weighed against improvements in the new. The problem is 4th edition simply is not an improvement to me. Mechanically it is a wash and to even begin to play it means setting up about as many home rules as I already have for 3rd edition to get it to work just as well as 3rd already does for me. So I should drop about $200 for core rule books, ignore the fluff, for a system that is no better and will have to be home ruled just as much? That isn't a sale to me and I expect a lot more to warrant a new edition.

Understandable - I feel the same of D&D 4th.

Gangers don't use Smart-goggles? It doesn't matter either way, it is silly that even the dumbest thug would trade in his weapon for something that can be easily disabled. Street knowledge of this disabling, especially since every runner is doing it would create a hot, hot market for "low-tech" weapons that don't feel the need to use wireless to connect from gun to skin/cable.

Most gangers in my world don't. As for runners, skinlink is all but mandatory IMO.

By treating I mean proceed on a course of development that upsets a large and significant part of their customer/fan base.

The problem is they can't exactly unwrite what they've already published without pissing off the other half (ish) of the fanbase. They are in essence between the proverbial rock and the hard place.

I don't mean the actual world is static. Static was a bad word choice. Probably "stubborn" or "dogged" determination to stick to this new course no matter how unpopular it is with so many fans.

No prob.

I've got a lot of ideas of how it could be fixed, but it would require two things we've not seen so far.

I would seriously love to hear them - a new thread perhaps?

Regarding your requirements (which I agree on), I can't speak for the devs or anyone else, but as I think you can see I am willing to try to find some common ground here. We do it fact share a few gripes after all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But it is relevant. NANs are 2/3 if not 3/4 of the North American map. All of Mexico, have the U.S., and most of Canada are a NAN.

Agreed, I'm just not sure it needs more explanation than what 4th gave - at least in a basic overview. I fully expect a SoNA equivalent down the line (hint hint devs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

Plus the NANs and Elven nations are a couple of my favorite settings because it is fun to play in familiar locations for my players with such different context to them than they're used to.

I agree - I love the NANs (Souix Nation rules - what can I say, I'm something of a pinkskin at heart), and the Tir as is was cool if not that runner friendly (my namesake character is from the Tir). SoNA was one of my favorite 3rd edition books. So I know where you're coming from on this point.

[NightmareX]

Sorry for the late response, I'm a slow poster.

No prob - I type slower than turtle speed myself (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Have you actually *tried* the conversion guide? It doesn't work. I tried converting a few characters from SR3 Missions to 4e, and they all blew chunks. In some cases, they ended up worse than a SR4 starting character with no karma. If your character had tons of karma under his belt, he might escaped with just a serious crippling; but if you were converting a newer character, everything would suddenly suck. For example, one character, a human mage, ended up with a converted Edge of 1. That's not even *possible* for starting humans in SR4.

Agreed, it doesn't work as is - it requires some slight tweaks to be made appropriate. Now admitted my namesake character has been run on and off since 1st edition and has like 800 karma in 3rd edition terms (translates out to roughly 600 in 4th), so he got off easy so to speak. The others were about 100 karma ish, and came out ok but not wow. The point thought is that conversion can be done, with relative ease (though admittedly rebuilding is sometimes preferable), so it's not truly a completely different engine.

The pint is, the focus of the history has shifted dramatically, and some events can cause massive reverberations for many years to come. The Great Ghost Dance is one of them. Ask anyone over a certain age: "Where were you when JFK was shot?" and you'll have a surprising answer. Some things remain firmly planted in our minds, and many of those were glossed over in SR4.

Agreed. Like I told Not of This World above, I expect to see such covered in future supplements. I guess the main difference here is that I'm willing to adopt a wait and see attitude.

Come on, they had multiple doomsday plots go off at the same time. The matrix is just the easiest target. It goes without saying that many major, long-running plotlines and characters were simply swept to the side, in order to have a world with a wireless matrix.

The same could be said of the Dragonheart trilogy and the horrors.

All items have a default Device Rating. That includes guns. Since they have a Device rating, they also have matrix ratings, and can therefore be attacked via the matrix.

All items, or all items that are computerized? Myself I don't view the average sword or non-smartlinked gun (or brick, or piece of garbage, or normal clothes, or whatever) to be computerized, thus I don't view it as an issue. Essentially I take to heart the phrase "The gamemaster has final determination over what items are wireless-enabled." and apply common sense in favor of nonsense like "Even non-electronic devices without moving parts may have a built-in computer, if it might be useful or convenient to the user (wouldn’t you like to be able to download and play your favorite songs on your jacket?)." Perhaps that is not 4th edition as it is intended, but I never stated 4th was flawless.

Further, even if a non-smartlinked gun is wireless enabled, I see no reason why it's compterized components should be able to effect the actual operation of the weapon.

[hobgoblin]

The claim that plot lines have been left dangling from 3rd ed. is laughable. It's a role-playing game. Plot lines are always left dangling. You as a player are expected to fill in the gaps either in-game or in your imagination.

the impression im left with after some threads like these are that some play very close to canon, and will not go close to any dangling plot thread for fear of having their in-game story be contradicted by the in-book story...

YMMV to the Nth...

[Redjack]

It's been three years since Katrina, and we're still rebuilding a lot of New Orleans. It's been seven years since 9/11, and they still haven't done anything with the site of the WTC. It took decades to recover from the Depression; and also, in Shadowrun history, it took decades to fully recover from the original Crash. Compared to the complete FUBAR the world undergoes in System Failure, we can see that everything just got fixed with a wave of a wand. I mean, we've got a massive economic crisis, failure of most major computers on the planet, nukes going off, Megacoprporations and governments crashing, and just about everything possible going haywire. And presto, five years later, everything is basically done and over with.

I was almost ready to cede this point to you, except after sleeping on it and seeing you write it again, I now see the issues.
1) Business must go on. Those aspects hindering business get the most attention.
Example: New Orleans is still rebuilding, but the ability to do business has been rebuilt. In sr, Barrens are still very lacking in wireless, but commercial areas are very built up. Wireless is everywhere, but its mixed with the wired.
2) The towers (or a monument) may not be rebuilt but the stock exchange and business thrive in New York. Business must go on.
3) Iraq was bombed into the stone age. The country is far from rebuilt but cell phones and oil pipelines are getting primary attention. Business must go on.

I think your evaluation lacks the proper RL perspective. Any aspect or infrastructure required to to business will get immediate attention. The wireless infrastructure is one such aspect.

[Redjack]

All items have a default Device Rating. That includes guns. Since they have a Device rating, they also have matrix ratings, and can therefore be attacked via the matrix.

All items, or all items that are computerized? Myself I don't view the average sword or non-smartlinked gun (or brick, or piece of garbage, or normal clothes, or whatever) to be computerized, thus I don't view it as an issue. Essentially I take to heart the phrase "The gamemaster has final determination over what items are wireless-enabled." and apply common sense in favor of nonsense like "Even non-electronic devices without moving parts may have a built-in computer, if it might be useful or convenient to the user (wouldn’t you like to be able to download and play your favorite songs on your jacket?)." Perhaps that is not 4th edition as it is intended, but I never stated 4th was flawless.

Further, even if a non-smartlinked gun is wireless enabled, I see no reason why it's compterized components should be able to effect the actual operation of the weapon.

Ditto. The assertion that just because something is wireless that you can come across the matrix and attack is silly. Everything wireless has a signal rating to connect to a PAN, not everything is connected to the matrix directly. Now, hacking a com that has a smartgun connected to it is another story.

[Bull]

I was almost ready to cede this point to you, except after sleeping on it and seeing you write it again, I now see the issues.
1) Business must go on. Those aspects hindering business get the most attention.
Example: New Orleans is still rebuilding, but the ability to do business has been rebuilt. In sr, Barrens are still very lacking in wireless, but commercial areas are very built up. Wireless is everywhere, but its mixed with the wired.
2) The towers (or a monument) may not be rebuilt but the stock exchange and business thrive in New York. Business must go on.
3) Iraq was bombed into the stone age. The country is far from rebuilt but cell phones and oil pipelines are getting primary attention. Business must go on.

I think your evaluation lacks the proper RL perspective. Any aspect or infrastructure required to to business will get immediate attention. The wireless infrastructure is one such aspect.

To add to this, the other key to remember here is that in RL, a lot of this stuff relies on the government to help it along, and that's slow and takes a lot of time. Business and corporations, on the other hand, can and move a lot quicker.

And in Shadowrun, with the megacorps, when they move, they MOVE. A couple of corps got together, decided wireless was the way to go, and then implemented it. The Corps then turned around and basically told the population that "Ok, everythings wireless now", and with some marketing spin, the people just accepted it. And why not? After all, it's cheaper than what they had before, readily available, and makes their lives easier.

I think that a lot of peoploe when they compare what happened in SR to Real Life forget the one big difference between the two... Megacorporations. They're more powerful than governments, and basically dictate how the average person in the SR world lives, even the ones that don;t work directly for them.

Bull

[Not of this Worl...]

If that isn't a Deus ex Machina I don't know what you think would qualify....

[Bull]

If that isn't a Deus ex Machina I don't know what you think would qualify....

If this is in response to my bit about the Megacorps, why do you say that?

Hell, this happens now, and we don;t even have anything as large as a Mega. Corps and companies tell us what to wear, what to eat, who's popular, what to watch... We get a little bit of say now, by what we do and don't purchase, but at the end of the day, the masses will consume whatever they're told, if the company responsible pumps enough advertising dollar behind it.

[Not of this Worl...]

It often doesn't work though.

But more importantly my point has more to do with plot use than real world use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina

Rather than a credible plot line over time, the transition between 3rd and 4th is so messed up you have to have super organizations come in, wave their magic wand, and say "it just is".

People can argue over words of whether it is rebooting, retconning, Deus Ex Machina, restart, whatever. Point is you're making a good case that SR was intentionally just wiped and Megacorps are the 'Deus Ex Machina' invoked as a magic explanation invoked for a lack of continuity in setting up the new edition.

[Not of this Worl...]

I am serious, but I must admit I'm not sure if either of us will be able to change the other's mind truthfully. So I'll leave it to your discretion ok? I don't want to waste your time and effort but at the same time would like to see what you mean precisely (especially if it means I'm missing things that need fixing or explanation).

Okay, well I'll start with one. The Boston setting.

Covered in Target: UCAS, Corporate Downloads, Corporate Punishment, etc.

Well 4th edition has destroyed Novatech, detonated a huge bomb in the city, killed off several of the most important NPCs to the setting, and left it so that most of the others are probably dead. Now my wife is from Boston, loved playing it as a setting. If you enjoyed the previous setting and want something similar and close, but want to play the current canonical edition how do you do it?

Those sourcebooks for Boston are mostly invalidated by 4th edition changes and pulling any of her old GM's plots forward would be quite a stretch.

One of my players was a drone Rigger (already using wireless in 3rd edition) and heavily involved with some Otaku plotlines... can't carry those on in 4th edition. Don't get me started on converting Otaku to Technomancers, mechanically they might be similar but fluff wise they're night and day.

So there are a couple ways if we stayed with 4th edition material it would massively change our game. 3rd edition isn't just hard to convert to 4th stat wise, it can be near impossible to convert your character stories to 4th edition and continue on the same plots sometimes.

The problem is they can't exactly unwrite what they've already published without pissing off the other half (ish) of the fanbase. They are in essence between the proverbial rock and the hard place.

One they put themselves in it should be added. I do believe it can be done, I just expect the playerbase will really have to dwindle as it did in Shadowrun 2nd edition. When they saw things were doing really poorly they got rid of or toned down a lot of things people hated that they were wasting so much development time on (i.e. Leonardo, Horrors).

I would seriously love to hear them - a new thread perhaps?

Regarding your requirements (which I agree on), I can't speak for the devs or anyone else, but as I think you can see I am willing to try to find some common ground here. We do it fact share a few gripes after all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Well I'm very serious about it too. So can we put together our common complaints about 4th edition and start from there? See if we can create solutions that are generally appealing to both new and old communities.

* NAN treatment
* Tir treatment
* Technomancers
* Character creation
* Shadowslang
* Too much Wi-Fi
* better Vehicle integration

Please add or subtract from this list as you see fit.

I agree - I love the NANs (Souix Nation rules - what can I say, I'm something of a pinkskin at heart), and the Tir as is was cool if not that runner friendly (my namesake character is from the Tir). SoNA was one of my favorite 3rd edition books. So I know where you're coming from on this point.

Making these settings more prominent, and retaining their unique characters plus returning to the old Shadowslang would at least make me interested in 4th edition sourcebooks again even if not the ruleset.

[Fuchs]

I simply retconned the wireless as "was always like that", and play in a mid-50s setting with sr4 rules. Works very well. Any other differences can easily be integrated - it really doesn't matter much what corp one is tangling with, Fuchi, Novatech, NeoNet.

[ravensmuse]

Okay, well I'll start with one. The Boston setting.

Covered in Target: UCAS, Corporate Downloads, Corporate Punishment, etc.

Hm, this is where Boston is covered? Good. I was looking for information for my own work on Boston.

Well 4th edition has destroyed Novatech, detonated a huge bomb in the city, killed off several of the most important NPCs to the setting, and left it so that most of the others are probably dead. [....] These sourcebooks for Boston are mostly invalidated by 4th edition changes and pulling any of her old GM's plots forward would be quite a stretch.Now my wife is from Boston, loved playing it as a setting. If you enjoyed the previous setting and want something similar and close, but want to play the current canonical edition how do you do it?

Let me ask you how, say, people who played their campaigns in Chicago felt after Bug City? Or LA, Denver or the Phillipines after Year of the Comet? Hell, Seattle's even had some serious plot tossed at it in-between books. These are all 2nd and 3rd edition books...

Oh, and from one Bostonite to another, howdy to your wife (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fuchs]

Good point: People complain if changes come with a new edition, but as long as entire megacorps/cities/countries get nuked within an edition, it's all a-ok?

[hermit]

I\'m seeing the word \"retcon\" bandied about and it\'s becoming clear that the definition of that word is not understood. Retroactive continuity implies that through some sort of process or deus ex machina (ie: Crisis on Infinite Worlds for you DC Comics readers) events that happened in the past were \"scrubbed out.\" That they never occurred. That is not the case with 4th edition\'s setting. Every event that happened in 1st through 3rd editions happened in the time line presented in 4E.

Sorry, wrong. See the mess they made of the arcology. Here\'s an overview of the plotline centering around the arc:

R:AS - Something bad happened in the arc. Raku says it\'s Terrorists, but noone believes it.
Brainscan - an evil AI took over the Arc, but now the Army is there to save the day. Move over, corp boys, and watch us win.
SotA63/64 - The Arc\'s a brilliant setting for the mroe extreme reality shows, and the occasional drone shredding a candidate adds nicely to ratings.
SF/BBB 4.0 - Deus came back again, but was blasted, ebven if he took the Matrix with him. The Arc events are a major trauma for Seattlites.
RH - The Arc matter still stirs up people, and there\'s a memorial for that planned, but somehow, people don\'t mind living in the arc, and noone wants to redevelop the grounds it\'s standing on.
Arsenal - The arc disaster made people distrust anythiing Raku produced that somehow had it\'s own decision-making mechanism, and Raku worked hard to make a comeback in household drone market. In other news, arcology drone rip-offs are selling well.
Emergence - Noone knew of Deus, the Arc history, it\'s all actually been secret all along! Hence, everybody loves AIs, when Horizon mediablitzes them.
Unwired - AIs are recognised as nice fellow sentients, never mind the first three together offed the population of a medium-sized nation state. Because they have fluffy icons. The Arc? What Arc?

Find the discontinuity.

I can get back to the kind of Neuromancer/Tron/Max Headroom matrix anytime i want and even make believe that sculpted systems and UV hosts are the latest fad and otaku babbling about ghosts in the machine are the mysterious new matrix phenomenon.

The WiFi hyped second Matrix (sorry, but this \'giving everything this computer program feel\' thing feels old to me, it died with the new economy) did what exactly to change that? UV hosts still are the latest fad, Technomancers still babble about ghosts in the Matrix, and VR sculpting is more common than ever (you have, if playing by Unwired rules, design sculpted systems for *every piece of equipment you own* and assign IC and other defensive programs to it!) ... where\'s the change for the better? Also, the \"everything\'s wireless! WIFI FTW!\" fad gets truely ridiculous when it is extended to vehicle engines, like in Unwired. I\'m sure everyone would want their car to shut down in case a thunderstorm moved by.

Not to even mention that, by all reason, the SR 4 cities should be bopmbarded with Thunderbirds (the critter), who are said to attack any kind of radio communication with great vigor, emit EMP, and explode upon death. But apparently, they, for some reason, mysteriously vanished off the face of the earth.

ala the point of \"half the megas being destroyed\"

Well, 4 out of 5 is close enough, isn\'t it? And yes, neither NeoNet nor Evo have anything in common with their supposed parent corps. Cross is totally gone, and Horizon just teleported into the world out of nowhere.

SR4 material specificially states (implied in the BBB, directly in Unwired) that the actual backbone of the Matrix is still wired - backbone meaning the RTGs and the like.

Well. BBB says that, yes ... but Unwired? That book even specifies that the Matrix\' backbones are wireless too, and even gives stats for a wireless backbone server.

If you were writing a roleplaying game set in 2000, would you go into excessive detail about WWII if it wasn\'t immediately relevant to the current setting, or would you just gloss it over and say \"WWII happened\"?

If you were writing a present day RPG in any part of Europe, doing that wopuld make the setting very much unbelievable. Because WW2\'s aftershocks still are a strong factor in how people as well as nations here interact.

Few peoples, like Americans, may live sufficiently far away from the rest of the world to ignore history like that. You may really be able to brush over history that way (though, what about the Civil War? Is it over with, including the repercussions regarding race? hunh?) in such a setting. But in everything else, history can\'t just be ignored.

Catalyst does have some talented people working for them; in particular, I think Demonseed Elite\'s treatment of Hong Kong is absolutely brilliant

QFT

[Not of this Worl...]

Let me ask you how, say, people who played their campaigns in Chicago felt after Bug City? Or LA, Denver or the Phillipines after Year of the Comet? Hell, Seattle's even had some serious plot tossed at it in-between books. These are all 2nd and 3rd edition books...

Oh, and from one Bostonite to another, howdy to your wife (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It is a valid point, but there are a lot of differences in how it was handled. First of all "Year of the Comet" didn't have a lot of apocalyptic events that demolished cities, mass number of fatalities, etc. You could play with cults, or just assume you didn't bump heads with them. Unless you SURGE'd, most things went back to normal afterwards and it was just a bunch of events. Even if you were set in the Yucatan, one of the most destructive settings... the war next explicitly come to your next of the woods and it could just be ominous news events from next door if you wanted to GM in the canon setting that way.

Now bug city was very destructive and unavoidable. It was also pretty well hinted at in multiple sourcebooks and novels in advance. If you were following the canon setting prior to Bug City, it was already full of bugs. The Cermak blast brought them to the surface and created open warfare and walls as an after result containment. I'd also note that the destruction of the Bugs reversed that direction and brought things basically back to the way it was before. (Now just do that with System Failure and we'll be happy, kk? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ) Plus on top of that Bug city is still a setting and event book that adds a lot to the Shadowrun setting. Both Bug city and Arcology Shutdown are mini localized environments that are contained, and life outside the Arcology in Seattle or outside the Chicago containment zone in the rest of Chicago continues on with your old plot hooks.

System Failure is just the opposite. It is an "Apocalypse" book designed to take away from the setting. You've got 9 Cermak blasts going off around the globe. You've got the essentially utter destruction (oh yeah it exists afterwards, but nothing exists like you knew it) of the Matrix which could be described as almost a third of the Shadowrun setting (Physical, Magical, Matrix) in some ways. You've got the assassination of unknown numbers of world leaders (remember the book tells us the description of UCAS is only the begging and worse things supposedly happened in countires as of yet undetailed... plans to do more damage to the setting in the future?). You've got the deaths and elimination of most of the Shadowtalk personalities you knew and loved. The whole premise behind System Failure is that the Shadowrun world you knew and loved is over and it is not meant that for you to continue having Shadowrun the way you knew it whether you like it or not.

So if you really liked the setting of SR3, System Failure and SR4 turned that on you and basically says we're going to have that any more.

Why is there any surprise that a large number of players then choose not to like SR4 and either to not play it or play it with reluctance?

One of the first and I think very necessary things to get SR3 fans into SR4 is to play down the events of System Failure and make them catalysts of change, rather than forcing the end of things as they were. They should have simply moved forward like SR2 and SR3 did without slamming a door on the past.

[hobgoblin]

Sorry, wrong. See the mess they made of the arcology. Here's an overview of the plotline centering around the arc:
R:AS - Something bad happened in the arc. Raku says it's Terrorists, but noone believes it.
Brainscan - an evil AI took over the Arc, but now the Army is there to save the day. Move over, corp boys, and watch us win.
SotA63/64 - The Arc's a brilliant setting for the mroe extreme reality shows, and the occasional drone shredding a candidate adds nicely to ratings.
SF/BBB 4.0 - Deus came back again, but was blasted, ebven if he took the Matrix with him. The Arc events are a major trauma for Seattlites.
RH - The Arc matter still stirs up people, and there's a memorial for that planned, but somehow, people don't mind living in the arc, and noone wants to redevelop the grounds it's standing on.
Arsenal - The arc disaster made people distrust anythiing Raku produced that somehow had it's own decision-making mechanism, and Raku worked hard to make a comeback in household drone market. In other news, arcology drone rip-offs are selling well.
Emergence - Noone knew of Deus, the Arc history, it's all actually been secret all along! Hence, everybody loves AIs, when Horizon mediablitzes them.
Unwired - AIs are recognised as nice fellow sentients, never mind the first three together offed the population of a medium-sized nation state. Because they have fluffy icons. The Arc? What Arc?

Find the discontinuity.

all i see are the classical media sheeps doing the approved happy dance...

[Tiger Eyes]

The Matrix is gone. Every Shadowtalk commentator you know except Fastjack is probably dead.

Okay, just for fun (and because the coffee cake has another 30 minutes to bake) I ran thru the current posters on Jackpoint and looked them up in pre-SR4 books I have on PDF.

Some are bigger names than others: Slamm-0!, Kane (most wanted man in 17 countries), Pyramid Watcher, Man of Many Names, Smiling Bandit, Puck (just a minor plot character, really (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ), and Frosty (Jane Foster... remember her?)

Others:

Aufheben (Loose Alliances)
Cosmo (Underworld, Portfolio of a Dragon, SoTA64)
Ecotope (Loose Alliances, SoA, SoTA64)
Glasswalker (SSG)
Glitch (MJBB, SoTA64, LA, SoNA)
Ma'fan (LA, SoA)
Marcos (Year of the Comet)
Pistons (SSG, SoNA, SoTA63 & 64)
Riser (Loose Alliances - okay, so he gets a full section there)
Rigger X (SSG, SoTA64, New Seattle, SR3 BBB, SoA, SoNA)
Traveler Jones (SSG, Loose Alliances, SoA, SoTA63, System Failure, SoNA)
Winterhawk (SoTA63, Loose Alliances, SSG)

And invited guests on Jackpoint:

Snow Tiger, Lei Kung, and Pyramid Watcher

Sorry, the cake's done, I gotta go feed my kiddos... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Cain]

Agreed, it doesn't work as is - it requires some slight tweaks to be made appropriate. Now admitted my namesake character has been run on and off since 1st edition and has like 800 karma in 3rd edition terms (translates out to roughly 600 in 4th), so he got off easy so to speak. The others were about 100 karma ish, and came out ok but not wow. The point thought is that conversion can be done, with relative ease (though admittedly rebuilding is sometimes preferable), so it's not truly a completely different engine.

I wouldn't say "with relative ease". You could convert characters from D&D 3.x to 4.0, but it's not easy; the same thing applies to SR3-4 characters. It's difficult, not just because of the stats, but because a lot of gear has to be changed over, new Essence calculations, some items have had their roles completely changed/removed, and so on. You'll also have to add new gear, factor in Qualities that the character should have, and a bunch of other things. In fact, doesn't the start of the conversion document say you should just build a new 400 point character, and add karma?

It is ia different engine. It's a totally different core mechanic, with totally different tactics required to build an effective character.

All items, or all items that are computerized? Myself I don't view the average sword or non-smartlinked gun (or brick, or piece of garbage, or normal clothes, or whatever) to be computerized, thus I don't view it as an issue. Essentially I take to heart the phrase "The gamemaster has final determination over what items are wireless-enabled." and apply common sense in favor of nonsense like "Even non-electronic devices without moving parts may have a built-in computer, if it might be useful or convenient to the user (wouldn’t you like to be able to download and play your favorite songs on your jacket?)." Perhaps that is not 4th edition as it is intended, but I never stated 4th was flawless.

Further, even if a non-smartlinked gun is wireless enabled, I see no reason why it's compterized components should be able to effect the actual operation of the weapon.

First, I wasn't the one who argued that a gun should be able to be attacked wirelessly, that was someone else. You'd have to ask him what he thinks. However, according to RAW, *all* items have a default Device rating that stands in for their matrix attributes. That means a gun can be hacked, although you might get into a debate as to what you can do once you've hacked it. Given that guns have had digital ammo readouts in 2060, I'd say that at the very least you can jam that.

If you decide that in your games, certain items don't have a "default", that's up to you. I'm just pointing out what it says.

I was almost ready to cede this point to you, except after sleeping on it and seeing you write it again, I now see the issues.
1) Business must go on. Those aspects hindering business get the most attention.
Example: New Orleans is still rebuilding, but the ability to do business has been rebuilt. In sr, Barrens are still very lacking in wireless, but commercial areas are very built up. Wireless is everywhere, but its mixed with the wired.
2) The towers (or a monument) may not be rebuilt but the stock exchange and business thrive in New York. Business must go on.
3) Iraq was bombed into the stone age. The country is far from rebuilt but cell phones and oil pipelines are getting primary attention. Business must go on.

I think your evaluation lacks the proper RL perspective. Any aspect or infrastructure required to to business will get immediate attention. The wireless infrastructure is one such aspect.

1) Business must go on, and might get a lot of attention; but even so, SR4 doesn't just say that the infrastructure has been fixed. *Everything* has been fixed.
2) The stock market and Wall Street weren't targeted in the 9/11 attacks. They didn't really lose anything. However, some of the businesses that were based out of the WTC are still disrupted.
3) Iraq is a joke. They're still working on basic power and water to some areas. You can't have modern business without electricity, and they've been working on that for five years. The oil fields weren't bombed or targeted in the inital invasion, so they were more-or-less intact from the beginning.

The wireless infrastructure would need to be developed, marketed, manufactured, and delivered in less than five years; incidentally convincing everyone involved that it was better and more cost-effective than replacing the existing lines. Just planning for that sort of thing can take years.

To add to this, the other key to remember here is that in RL, a lot of this stuff relies on the government to help it along, and that's slow and takes a lot of time. Business and corporations, on the other hand, can and move a lot quicker.

And in Shadowrun, with the megacorps, when they move, they MOVE. A couple of corps got together, decided wireless was the way to go, and then implemented it. The Corps then turned around and basically told the population that "Ok, everythings wireless now", and with some marketing spin, the people just accepted it. And why not? After all, it's cheaper than what they had before, readily available, and makes their lives easier.

I think that a lot of peoploe when they compare what happened in SR to Real Life forget the one big difference between the two... Megacorporations. They're more powerful than governments, and basically dictate how the average person in the SR world lives, even the ones that don;t work directly for them.

The megacorps also took damage in the disaster. In fact, Cross went down as a result. Logically, the corps would have focused on rebuilding themselves, rather than investing in infrastructure. That's more-or-less why they left governments intact; so they could leave the grunt work to someone else. In fact, the Z-O actions showed that during the crash, the corps were more interested in protecting themselves than helping out. Why should they make an expensive and rushed investment in infrastructure? There's no money to be made in disaster relief.

If this is in response to my bit about the Megacorps, why do you say that?

Hell, this happens now, and we don;t even have anything as large as a Mega. Corps and companies tell us what to wear, what to eat, who's popular, what to watch... We get a little bit of say now, by what we do and don't purchase, but at the end of the day, the masses will consume whatever they're told, if the company responsible pumps enough advertising dollar behind it.

That's not true, though. Despite massive advertising campaigns, there's plenty of failed products and TV shows that come and go each year. Remember New Coke? It died, despite a truly massive media blitz. The bottom line is that tons of advertising is not a recipe for mass obedience.

But if you're truly crediting the megas with the power I think you are, then it's still a Deux Ex Machina. Instead of a Greek god, or a fairy, we have the megacorps coming down from the heavens and waving their magic wands. Presto, everything fixed.

[hermit]

Have you actually *tried* the conversion guide? It doesn\'t work. I tried converting a few characters from SR3 Missions to 4e, and they all blew chunks. In some cases, they ended up worse than a SR4 starting character with no karma. If your character had tons of karma under his belt, he might escaped with just a serious crippling; but if you were converting a newer character, everything would suddenly suck. For example, one character, a human mage, ended up with a converted Edge of 1. That\'s not even *possible* for starting humans in SR4.

Rebuilding from scratch with KarmaGen kinda works.

Wireless is everywhere, but its mixed with the wired.

Ever read Arsenal?

To add to this, the other key to remember here is that in RL, a lot of this stuff relies on the government to help it along, and that\'s slow and takes a lot of time. Business and corporations, on the other hand, can and move a lot quicker.

Yeah, we can see that in Iraq. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And in Shadowrun, with the megacorps, when they move, they MOVE. A couple of corps got together, decided wireless was the way to go, and then implemented it. The Corps then turned around and basically told the population that \"Ok, everythings wireless now\", and with some marketing spin, the people just accepted it. And why not? After all, it\'s cheaper than what they had before, readily available, and makes their lives easier.

Sure, because corps have never made any significant investment in non-wireless equuipment before, have infinte money and people are being mind controlled by them via mediablitz magic.

Corps and companies tell us what to wear, what to eat, who\'s popular, what to watch... We get a little bit of say now, by what we do and don\'t purchase, but at the end of the day, the masses will consume whatever they\'re told, if the company responsible pumps enough advertising dollar behind it.

So your computer is running Vista?

[Bashfull]

Love it. Love the way it's kept up-to-date, love the way Catalyst have kept the feel of the original SR while keeping it fresh, and made the rules better. A product that keeps getting better and better, fed by a lively online community here.

[jklst14]

* NAN treatment
* Tir treatment

Personally, I never liked the NAN or the Tirs, even back in 1989.

* Technomancers

I'm kind of neutral on technomancers.

* Character creation

I don't have a problem with SR4 char gen. Equipment purchasing has always been the most time consuming part for me and it has been an issue across all editions.

* Shadowslang

Shadowslang was cool but I'm fine with real swearing as well. I still use the occasional chummer, drek and frag.

* Too much Wi-Fi
* better Vehicle integration

Agreed.

Looking at the above list (and reading the countless SR3 versus SR4 threads here and other places) has made me realize that the SR3 and SR4 crowds will never come to agreement. But at least we can hopefully peacefully coexist (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Bull]

So your computer is running Vista?

Not yet, will be one of these days. I haven't gotten a new computer anytime recently because I haven't needed it yet. I'll likely upgrade in the next year or so.

Of course, XP is still supported, and most game sthat come out run on it. If within a year of Vista coming out, no new games were compatibvle with XP? Yeah, I'd have switched over ASAP. I don;t really give a rats ass what my computer's running, so long as it runs the games I want to play.

Bull

[hermit]

Of course, XP is still supported, and most game sthat come out run on it.

XP is still supported because the customers want it to be (hence the "Vista downgrade" option). Games run on XP because they sell better than Vista-only games. And that's in a world where there's practically a monopoly in the OS for home computers market; in SR, it's much more competitive, and interchangeable programs that run on any given OS are standard. Actually, in SR, the customer is notably less fucked in that market segment than in Real Life. And still, the RL monopolist didn't get it's way with it's hugely advertised new product.

Corp Power, like all else, has it's limits.

[NightmareX]

Well 4th edition has destroyed Novatech, detonated a huge bomb in the city, killed off several of the most important NPCs to the setting, and left it so that most of the others are probably dead. Now my wife is from Boston, loved playing it as a setting. If you enjoyed the previous setting and want something similar and close, but want to play the current canonical edition how do you do it?

Well, for starters Novatech is still around as part of NeoNet. I was under the impression that the nukes Winternight used were rigged to be essentially EMP only bursts, maybe a small concussive detonation but not on nuclear scale. I was never too clear on that though. If you want to preserve the Boston setting, simply considering this interpetation would be a good start IMHO - it's certainly the approach I use (cause IIRC Seattle got a bomb too no? unsure on that). Of course the ECSE did move (again) and logically would due to infrastructure damage (wait, if there was an ECSE left to move don't that imply it wasn't a full on nuke?).

Regarding NPC deaths - are you talking Boston specific NPCs or world NPCs? I don't recall any real detail about Boston specific NPCs being mentioned.

One of my players was a drone Rigger (already using wireless in 3rd edition) and heavily involved with some Otaku plotlines... can't carry those on in 4th edition. Don't get me started on converting Otaku to Technomancers, mechanically they might be similar but fluff wise they're night and day.

Yeah, you're kinda screwed there unfortunately (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) While I don't mourn the end of the Deus/otaku mess (sorry, it was dragging on too much like the horrors thing for my tastes), it does leave you (and likely others) in a lurch. If your plotline didn't involve directly involve Pax's crew, I would (if I were GMing it, this is only hypothetical) run the remaining otaku NPCs you need to complete the story line essentially as otaku - they still need the implants (and can have implants without penalty) but have CFs and sprites to a degree. I know you said not to get you started (sorry about doing so), but this approach would preserve the fluff elements, which I consider more important than slavish devotion to crunch (besides, technos suck (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) ).

One they put themselves in it should be added.

Very true.

Making these settings more prominent, and retaining their unique characters plus returning to the old Shadowslang would at least make me interested in 4th edition sourcebooks again even if not the ruleset.

Cool 8D I can totally agree to that. In regards to specific elements, I'll make a new thread for the discussion (aside from and in addition to what we're talking about elsewhere). I feel it's important to bring in as broad a consensus as possible if the goal of the endeavor is to be met.

One of the first and I think very necessary things to get SR3 fans into SR4 is to play down the events of System Failure and make them catalysts of change, rather than forcing the end of things as they were. They should have simply moved forward like SR2 and SR3 did without slamming a door on the past.

I guess in a way I've already done this, thus my failure to understand your (and others) objections previously. But agreed - SF needs to be made into a changing point, not an ending.