Martial Arts Addendum, A few holes filled in and a problem fixed? Options

[reepneep]

The maneuvers in Arsenal made punching people a lot more fun but I couldn't help but feel that subdual combat needed a little boost and some extra flavor. I've added three new manuvers and altered throw, which I felt was both too weak and too limited as it didn't model the Judo-style grabby leverage and muscle throw.

Takedown
An attacker may use Takedown as part of his initial subdual combat attack. It applies a -2DP penalty to it's user's test. If the test is successful, both parties are knocked prone with the attacker retaining his hold as normal.

Joint Lock
Joint Lock can be used when invoking the damage option in the grapple rules. It gives the attack an AP value equal to the user's unarmed skill plus appropriate boni.

Chokehold
Applying a Chokehold pinches off the arteries in the neck causing unconsiousness in three combat turns including the one in which the hold is applied. Treat applying a Chokehold as an attempt to get a better grip. If the opposed test is successful the Chokehold is applied, if not resolve the grip test as normal. The victim gets to attempt to break the hold as normal but suffers a -1DP penalty cumulatively for each turn that passes due to lack of oxygen. The hold is fatal if maintained for 2 + (1/4 victim's body) minutes.
Anyone attempting to percieve the victim's gurgling get a -4DP modifier to his perception check.

Throw (revised)
The throw test is an opposed test of (STR + Unarmed Combat).

Throw can be used in the following circumstances:
1: As a borrow ahead action after a successful clinch maneuver or initial grapple attempt
2: As a complex action once a clinch has been established by either combatant
3: As a complex action when already engaged in subdual combat whether the character has control or not
4: As a borrow ahead action after a successful parry/block by the character or a successful defense against a grapple attempt
5: Any other situation that the GM deems appropriate

If a Throw is successful, the attacker can choose to launch his victim 1 + net hits meters in a direction of his choosing (not up, you crafty bastards) or simply drive him into the ground on the spot. In either case, throw inflicts 1/2(STR)+ net hits in stun damage. At GM discretion Throw may inflict extra and/or physical damage if the victim is thrown somewhere exceptionally unpleasant. (plastcrete, stone, broken glass, off a cliff, in front of a bus, etc.)

Chokehold isn't terribly useful in combat and might need some tweaking and more precise wording but being able to take down people silently without weapons would make it very valuable for the covert ops types. Throw goes from 'why the hell would you spend karma on this' to 'this is one of the best maneuvers in the game'. Joint Lock allows ordinary sorts actually damage people wearing light-medium armor in subdual combat. Takedown allows the attacker to perform two actions at once if he takes a dicepool penalty.

They've been through a few hours of playtesting and seem to add something useful but not totally overpowering. I'm generally pretty happy with them but another few pairs of eyes are always welcome. Feedback please!

[psychophipps]

Not too shabby. I would change the throw test to "The best of STR or AGL + Unarmed Combat" as you can throw by being like a gorilla or by being like a mongoose. In fact, there are distinct advantages in energy savings and explosiveness if you throw using good technique over brute force (all of your strength goes into tossing them rather than some being wasted overpowering them and using what's left for the throw). A STR-based throw is resisted by STR or REA, an AGL-based throw is resisted only by REA would be a good corollary, as well.

Another fun one might be the allow throwing arts like Aikido and Judo to initiate a grapple as an unarmed block equivalent. I think that this puts it on-par with "deals damage while disarming" as they still have to successfully initiate a throw maneuver afterward. They just get their mitts on you as they block or parry your attack. 5BP as normal, IMO.

[reepneep]

I would change the throw test to "The best of STR or AGL + Unarmed Combat"...

Strangely enough I had it that way earlier. I changed it back to STR only partially because I wanted it closer to the RAW, and partially because of the implications it had for resisting it like you mentioned. I'm trying to avoid too much complexity but that certainly would be more accurate. I'm not really sure what I want to do with it, honestly.

Another fun one might be the allow throwing arts like Aikido and Judo to initiate a grapple as an unarmed block equivalent. I think that this puts it on-par with "deals damage while disarming" as they still have to successfully initiate a throw maneuver afterward. They just get their mitts on you as they block or parry your attack. 5BP as normal, IMO.

Thats a pretty good idea, actually. Another seperate maneuver, gives -2DP to the defense test but gives the defender a grip with grade equal to the net hits. Any suggestions on a name? Trap maybe?

[Flatliner]

Don't have access to anything at the moment- so please forgive if this is dealt with in the existing rules, but questions jump to mind.

Chokehold: what if Sam the troll street samurai has dermal plating, orthoskin, or his natural bonus? What about cyberware?

Joint Lock: the cyberware issue again. Not every cyberlimb would be constructed equally, but I think in general that an artificial limb wouldn't suffer the same way a natural elbow being wrenched the wrong way would.

[venenum]

Don't have access to anything at the moment- so please forgive if this is dealt with in the existing rules, but questions jump to mind.

Chokehold: what if Sam the troll street samurai has dermal plating, orthoskin, or his natural bonus? What about cyberware?

Joint Lock: the cyberware issue again. Not every cyberlimb would be constructed equally, but I think in general that an artificial limb wouldn't suffer the same way a natural elbow being wrenched the wrong way would.

Dermal Plating Shoulnt be an issiue as it would have to cover the entirety of the cartoid artieries, which would make the neck inflexable. As to the cyber limps it should be more difficult but possible just due to the fact it is made from sturdier materials than the human body.

However the gurgling penelty should probably be havled. Becuase if your impling the manuver is a strangle ( cuts off blood to the brain and so works faster)
you can speak preeety clearly just high pitch. A choke chrushes the larynx in the process of cutting off the air supply yet takes longer.

[reepneep]

Chokehold: what if Sam the troll street samurai has dermal plating, orthoskin, or his natural bonus? What about cyberware?

Joint Lock: the cyberware issue again. Not every cyberlimb would be constructed equally, but I think in general that an artificial limb wouldn't suffer the same way a natural elbow being wrenched the wrong way would.

Theres an awful lot of GMO in SR4 and this would be no different. Orthoskin and the like might apply a DP penalty equal to their rating or something like that. I can't think of any other cyberware that would apply here, though. What did you have in mind?

For Joint Lock, this only becomes an issue if the victim has no natural limbs. Still, unless they're specifically designed for it, by default a cyberlimb isn't any stronger than a natural one. Unusual joint setups like the Kid Stealth legs can be avoided by going for the arms and weird arms can be bypassed by using a hold that attacks the shoulder. Personally I would even let exceptionally strong characters apply it to limbed drones if they had a relevant knowledge or technical skill. There is also the fact that chrome isn't even factored into the RAW grappling rules at all.

However the gurgling penelty should probably be havled. Becuase if your impling the manuver is a strangle ( cuts off blood to the brain and so works faster)
you can speak preeety clearly just high pitch. A choke chrushes the larynx in the process of cutting off the air supply yet takes longer.

The carotid choke is what I was going for. I've been put in one of these holds (a short stint of Brazillian Jiu Jitsu) and believe me when I say that the best you'll get for volume is quiet talking which is pretty close to a movie silencer, which is far more quiet than the real thing. Your best chance for making enough noise to get noticed would be to knock over something with your flailing or batter the floor with your heels. Besides, I think that halving it would decrease it's effectiveness too much. I'm not interested in creating another curiosity that no one will take like Disorient.

[JudgementLoaf]

Ive run into the chrome problem myself a bit with some of the maneuvers, and I had a house rule that has seemed to work pretty well. Basically, if the joint lock or restraining maneuver is used on a chromed character, one simply assumes that (unless otherwise noted) that the arm functions EXACTLY like a normal arm. After all, martial joint locks and similar techniques rely on the basic anatomy of the metahuman body- something that cyberlimbs are designed to emulate. In the case of a full rotation limb or some other kind of modification that allows for a greater than metahuman range of motion, I have anywhere from a 1 to 5 dice penalty depending on how extensive the 'ware is and what kind of movement it allows. Likewise, chrome can compensate by simply being stronger..... a maxed out cyberarm with additional strength mods would be really, really hard to keep down, regardless of angles. As for the incomplete street sam with only 1 cyberlimb? "Called shot" rules. Apply a 4 dice penalty to grabbing the non-cybernetic limb (if you can even tell its cybernetic initially), reduced by 1 for every level of martial arts quality they take (after all, a more experienced martial artist can not only tie you up in a pretzel, they can choose which limb forms each part of the tasty, broken treat.)

[crash2029]

Instead of Choke Hold how about Sleeper Hold? With the defensive grapple maneuver how about Locking Block?

If your super-sneaky character sucessfully sneaks up on someone and then pins them, what kind of test would it be to give them a Narcojet hypodermic?

[venenum]

The carotid choke is what I was going for. I've been put in one of these holds (a short stint of Brazillian Jiu Jitsu) and believe me when I say that the best you'll get for volume is quiet talking which is pretty close to a movie silencer, which is far more quiet than the real thing. Your best chance for making enough noise to get noticed would be to knock over something with your flailing or batter the floor with your heels. Besides, I think that halving it would decrease it's effectiveness too much. I'm not interested in creating another curiosity that no one will take like Disorient.

Odd... Must be the person. I do jujustu/judo and I can talk at a near regular level (but no louder), I just sound really stupid. However from the gaming perspective it is a valid point.

Instead of Choke Hold how about Sleeper Hold? With the defensive grapple maneuver how about Locking Block?

Becuase the sleeper hold is a choke hold.

[reepneep]

Odd... Must be the person. I do jujustu/judo and I can talk at a near regular level (but no louder), I just sound really stupid. However from the gaming perspective it is a valid point.

The Judo chokeholds are considerably more gentle and precise than the BJJ ones from what I've seen. Correct me if I'm wrong but they seem to specifically target the artery and don't put much pressure on the throat and/or larynx. BJJ chokes are much more forceful and have more in common with western wrestling in that regard.

[venenum]

The Judo chokeholds are considerably more gentle and precise than the BJJ ones from what I've seen. Correct me if I'm wrong but they seem to specifically target the artery and don't put much pressure on the throat and/or larynx. BJJ chokes are much more forceful and have more in common with western wrestling in that regard.

Depends on the choke... However most chokes could be done either way from either style. Also most of BJJ's chokes came from Jujutsu. However we really shouldn't use modern US or Olympic judo as an example... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)