Technomancer Echos Options

[venenum]

Pardon me if this has been brought up... My search fu is weak and I haven't been on the boards in a long time.

Some of the technomancer echoes are deciedly overpowered. Biowire, E-sensing, Acceleration, Mesh Reality

However some seem nifty, such as swap and sprite link. and perhaps should be adapted to magic. Additionally swap should be an advanced echo or metamagic based off of a centering like ability. Sprite link is fine.

Are their any opinions how to fix the abusive echos or how to adapt some of them?

[Aaron]

Could you elaborate on that? What do you mean when you say that the echoes you mentioned overpowered?

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Overall, the technos got MUCH better/more interesting initiation perks than mages:

The overclocking/biowire/mesh reality/accelerationX3/advanced overclocking route will give the technomancer the equivalent of skillwires (rating = submersion) and 5 initiative passes in VR and 4 in meatspace simultaneously (i.e. total of 5 passes, at least 1 of which must be used as VR.)

Taking Swap twice reduces their threading sustaining penalty to zero.

Sprite Link allows him to summon sprites that didn't even exist in the rules when his character was made. (Playing a base-book mage....it'd be nice to be able to summon guardian or task spirits, but that option isn't open, and can't simply be bought through initiation.)


Overall, the devs may have overreacted slightly to the "technomancers suck" attitude. At this point, I'd call them frighteningly overpowered, except it takes a couple hundred karma to really get there.

[GreyBrother]

Biowire: Calculate the Karma cost for it so you can use it on any level and compare it to the Cost of Skillwires. Now they aren't that overpowered anymore, nej?

E-Sensing: Please explain how this is overpowered.

Accleration: Again, calculate and compare cost.

Mesh Reality: Explain please.

Overall, the devs may have overreacted slightly to the "technomancers suck" attitude. At this point, I'd call them frighteningly overpowered, except it takes a couple hundred karma to really get there.

QFT (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) But, does it really matter if it takes hundreds of karma?

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Well, if you let them submerge at chargen, and use the karmagen rules, they've GOT 300+ karma to play with, relative to a 400bp character.

[Tycho]

no they don't

TM are the only Chars, that really need 650+ Karma an Chargen, if you compare a 400BP against Karmagen.

CFs are really expensive in Karma

cya
Tycho

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Meh - the route to power for a technomancer has always been sprite-focused...though a maxed out stealth with threading on top of it never hurts.

[Aaron]

The overclocking/biowire/mesh reality/accelerationX3/advanced overclocking route will give the technomancer the equivalent of skillwires (rating = submersion) and 5 initiative passes in VR and 4 in meatspace simultaneously (i.e. total of 5 passes, at least 1 of which must be used as VR.)

Er ... all for the low-low price of 112 Karma (68 if you're part of a network and do seven submersion tasks).

Overall, the devs may have overreacted slightly to the "technomancers suck" attitude. At this point, I'd call them frighteningly overpowered, except it takes a couple hundred karma to really get there.

Could you offer an example of a non-technomancer character that does not become frighteningly overpowered with a couple hundred Karma?

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Could you offer an example of a non-technomancer character that does not become frighteningly overpowered with a couple hundred Karma?

Aside from the generalist? (GM: "you've got a 4 in EVERYTHING?") After all, a lot of folks around here think a dice pool of 15 should be considered 'average.'

[Tsithlis]

Yes for 112 Karma you can be as you say overpowered lets break it down

avg 3 karma per game session

38 game session

playing every two weeks you could become "overpowered" in a year and a half congrats!

[Ryu]

Woot! Lets start with that straight after mental attributes, complex forms and the occasional skill. What? Increasing physical attributes via ware costs even more karma due to resonance loss? Damn.

(And slash Biowire from the list, those 4 karma per skill are more expensive than a point of resonance lost to cyberware fast)

[Tycho]

Could you offer an example of a non-technomancer character that does not become frighteningly overpowered with a couple hundred Karma?

Because I already have something handy: (built with 400BP +117Karma and +200k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) )

explanation: blue states a "after chargen"



Old School Elite "Mess with the best, die like the rest" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Race: Norm (0BP)

Qualities: (+10BP)
positive (25BP)
Ambidexterious (5BP)
Codeslinger (Hacking on the fly) (10BP)
Biocombatablility (Cyberware) (10BP)

negative (+35B)
Allergie (unc/med)
Addiction (Betel/mild)
Augmentation Addict
Spirit Bane
(or something else for 35BP)

Attr: (220BP+ 63 Karma)

physical/mental (200BP+ 63 Karma)
Bod: 6 (40BP+18 Karma)
Agi: 5 (7) (40BP)
Rea: 5 (9) (40BP)
Str: 2 (4) (0BP+6 Karma)
Cha: 2 (0BP+6 Karma)
Int: 6 (40BP+18 Karma)
Log: 3 (0BP+15 Karma)
Wil: 5 (40BP)

special (20BP)
Edge: 4 (20BP)
Ess: 0,01

Initiative: 14; 3IP
Matrix Ini: 20; 5IP

Skills: (132BP+ 54 Karma)

Cracking Gruppe 4 (40BP)
-Hacking (Exploit) 6 (24 Karma)
-Cybercombat 4
-Elec. Warfare (Communication) 4 (2 Karma)
Elektronik Gruppe 4 (40BP)
-Computer (Analyse) 6 (24 Karma)
-Data Search (Warez) 4 (2 Karma)
-Software 4
-Hardware 4
Automatics (Machine Pistols) 6 (24BP + 2 Karma)
Dodge 4 (6) (16BP)
Perception 3 (12BP)

Connections (8BP):
Cracker (Loy 4, Con 4)


Gear:(50BP)
Ware:

Cyberware [5,34]:
Commlink (alpha, Adapsin) 0,12 4200Y
Datajack (alpha, Adapsin) 0,06 1000Y
Encephalon 2 (2nd Hand) 1,62 37500Y
Math SPU (Adapsin) 0,12 4500
Simsence Booster (2nd Hand) 0,54 32500Y
Cybereye IV (Adapsin) 0,4 1500Y
-IR 1000Y
-LV 1000Y
-Smart 1000Y
-Vision Enh. 3 4500Y
-Flash 750Y
Move by Wire 2 (Adapsin) 2,4 85000Y
Skillwire Expert System (Adapsin) 0,08 3000Y

Bioware [1,0]:
Muskel Toner 2 0,4 16000Y
Muskel Augmentation 2 0,4 14000Y
Platelet Factories 0,2 25000Y


Genware [0,3]:
Adapsin 0,2 40000Y
PuShed 0,1 15000Y
Sideways Infusions (temp) each 1000Y

=140000Y + 148450Y

Commlink:
Commlink (implantiert)
Res: 6 (8000Y)
Sig: 6 (3000Y)
Sys: 6 (3000Y)
Fir: 6 (3000Y)
-Optimization for Exploit (500Y)
-Costume Interface (250Y)
-Resonance Enhancer 6 (12000Y)
-Simsence Acceleration (15000Y)

Software (all illegal for 10%):
Purge (Virus Resistance 3, Ergonomic) 6
Analyse (Ergonomic) 6
Encrypt (Ergonomic) 6
Stealth (Ergonomic) 6
Edit (Ergonomic, Mute) 6
Exploit (Mute) 6
Attack (Targeting, Rust, Armor Piercing 3) 6
Blackout (Targeting, Rust, Armor Piercing 3) 6
Black Hammer (Targeting, Rust, Armor Piercing 3) 6
Armor (Ergonomic) 6
all other programs 6

Cost:
8*Common Use 6 = 480Y
18*Hacking 6 = 10800Y
1*Viral Resistance = 30Y
6*Ergonomic = 180Y
2*Mute = 60Y
3*Rust = 675Y
3*Targeting = 675Y
3*Armor Piercing 3 = 675Y
= 13575Y

Pistol Skillsoft (Pluscode 3) 4
Longarms Skillsoft (Pluscode 3) 4
Heavy Waepon Skillsoft (Pluscode 3) 4
Unarmed Skillsoft (Pluscode 3) 4
Pilot Groundcraft Skillsoft (Pluscode 3) 4
Ettikette Skillsoft (Pluscode 3) 4
Negotiation Skillsoft (Pluscode 3) 4
Con Skillsoft (Pluscode 3) 4
Running (Pluscode 3) 4
Swimming (Pluscode 3) 4
Climbing (Pluscode 3) 4
Gymnastic (Pluscode 3) 4
Infiltration (Pluscode 3) 4

each 1500Y
13*1500Y=19500Y

Shadowing Skillsoft 4
Demolition Skillsoft 4
Medizin Skillsoft 4
Survival Skillsoft 4
Tracking Skillsoft 4
Navigation Skillsoft 4
Arcana Skillsoft 4
Palming Skillsoft 4
Armorer Skillsoft 4
Locksmith Skillsoft 4
Forgery Skillsoft 4


11*1200Y=13200Y

over all cost:
186275Y+186450Y

for the carryover: 77275Y

Agent 6 (Mook modifiziert)
-Cascading 3
-Expert Offensive 3

maybe some more Skillsofts

Fake SIN

Weapon:

Ares Crusader (GV3, Personalised Grip, Smartlink, impr. Rangefinder, additional Clip)
Dam---AP----Mode------RC----Ammo
4K------------SA,BF-------4-----2*30©

Ares Alpha (Additional Clip, Gas Vent 3, Personalized Grip, Improved Range Finder, Foregrip, Shockpad)
Dam---AP----Mode------RC----Ammo
6K-------1----SA-FA------8-----2*42©

Armor:

Form Fitting Body Armor, Full Body+
SWAT Armor + Helmet + PPP (all custome made)
=> Bal 21/Stoß 15 (without Encumbrance)
or
Heavy Mil Grade Armor (Weapon Arm ((IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) , Gyro (4), Hydaulic Jacks 5 (6), Strengh Upgrade 2 (2)) + Helm (upgraded, Biomonitor)
Bal 18/Stoß 16


Elektronic Tools
RFID Eraser
Sat Uplink
Medikit 6
Biomonitor

Low Livestyle (spoofed)

Muni and Trivia



Dicepools:

Node Hacking: (Skill 6 + Spec 2 + Prog 6 + Optimization 1 + Hot Sim 2 + Encephalon 2 + Pushed 1 + maybe Codeslinger 2) = 22w (on th fly); 20w
Encryption/Decryption: (Skill 4 + Math SPU 2 + Prog 6 + Hot Sim 2 + Encephalon 2 + Pushed 1) = 17w
Cybercombat: (Skill 4 + Prog 6 + Targeting 2 + Hot Sim 2 + Encephalon 2 + Pushed 1 + Sideways 1) = 18w
Matrix everything else: (Skill 4/6 + Prog 6 + Hot Sim 2 + Encephalon 2 + Pushed 1 + maybe Spec) = 15w-19w

Matrix Ini (Res 6 + Intution 6 + Hot Sim 1 + Costum Interface 1 + Responce Enhancer 6)= 20
Initative (Rea 5(9)+Int 6)= 15

fireing Ares Alpha (Automatics 6 + Agi 7 + Smart 2 + 1 Sideways) = 15w (bursts without penalty)
fireing 2 Ares Crusader ((Automatics 6 + Agi 7)/2+Spec 2 + Sideways 1)=10w/9w
Dodge (full dodge): (Rea 6(9) + 2 Sideways +(Dodge 4 + MbW 2) = 11w (17w)
Perception (Int 6 + Perception 3 + Sideways 1 + maybe Vision Enh 3) 10w (13w if visual)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

so I hope I don't miss something in my translation.


a TM is not that good with the same amount of Cash and Karma...

cya
Tycho

[venenum]

Pardon me if this has been brought up... My search fu is weak and I haven't been on the boards in a long time.

Some of the technomancer echoes are deciedly overpowered. Biowire, E-sensing, Acceleration, Mesh Reality

However some seem nifty, such as swap and sprite link. and perhaps should be adapted to magic. Additionally swap should be an advanced echo or metamagic based off of a centering like ability. Sprite link is fine.

Are their any opinions how to fix the abusive echos or how to adapt some of them?

E-sensing shouldn't be there it was a mistake. The adapt questio was would it be reasonable to adapt swap ans sprite link to be metamagic techniques?

Mesh reality is overpowevered becuase a minus four is not a huge penelty with the insanly large dicepools you can get.

[Cain]

Yes for 112 Karma you can be as you say overpowered lets break it down

avg 3 karma per game session

38 game session

playing every two weeks you could become "overpowered" in a year and a half congrats!

Most SR4 games I've been in give out 4-6 karma per session. Let's average that to 5.

23 game sessions.

In home games, most people get together weekly. So, that takes the time down to under 6 months.

That's not including Group initiations and ordeals. That's 68 karma, right?

14 game sessions, or a little over 3 months. In other words, if you started playing at the start of summer, you'd be there now.

The issue I'm having is that with Acceleration, drone riggers are going to become obsolete. There's nothing that a drone rigger can do that an otaku cannot; and now, they can even break a core rule.

[Tycho]

There are more important things to increase with karma than submerging. A start TM has very low physical Attr. very little Skills outside Matrix etc.

Moreover most GM won't let you submerge with all karma you earned, just like a mage a TM has to gain a certain level of maturity, before he can submerge.

cya
Tycho

[Muspellsheimr]

Some of the technomancer echoes are deciedly overpowered. Biowire, E-sensing, Acceleration, Mesh Reality

Biowire is overpowered only because Skillwires are overpowered - a discussion I will not get into here.

E-Sensing I have difficulty judging - it may be overpowered, but does not immediately strike me as such.

Acceleration - Much cheaper to obtain with 'ware. I can see it's appeal, but I consider it a wasted Echo.

Mesh Reality - One of the few I actually like, it is not overpowering. Yes, you negate a -6 Dice Pool Modifier with it, but due to the circumstances, that only ever really comes into play if you are using Hot Sim VR in the middle of combat - nice once you get access to it, but not something that would cause to much difficulty for any reason. You cannot take more actions than you are normally allowed with it. Considering the price to obtain it, it is very reasonable.

[Cain]

There are more important things to increase with karma than submerging. A start TM has very low physical Attr. very little Skills outside Matrix etc.

Moreover most GM won't let you submerge with all karma you earned, just like a mage a TM has to gain a certain level of maturity, before he can submerge.

What's most important to raise is highly subjective. Given that a starting otaku is behind the curve vs a well-built starting decker, it's also important to build up your matrix abilities. Some would say that it's even more important.

As far as submersion goes, I've never seen a GM deny a mage or otaku the chance to initiate. I've *heard* of some cases when the mage hadn't been using magic very much, but that happens rarely.

My point is that starting otaku are still underpowered, until and unless they earn enough karma to initiate repeatedly and get the echoes that will make them game-breaking. I mean, 5 IP's and a combat drone means they're more than a match for any street sammie.

[GreyBrother]

That's when Signal Jamming comes in handy. No Signal, No TM controlled Drone.

[Dumori]

are you forgetting that hackers can get 5IPs as well? Plus hackers and riggers advance much more quickly. So your TM will reach 5ips after a mundane hacker. Long term TMs are beeter so are all the awakened. It's part of the game. Adepts cost 5bp to take why? They can be just as powerful as a Mage. Mistical adepts are the best in the game long term no astral projection but they can own meat with there spells and powers.

[GreyBrother]

What use do you have with 5 IPs when you can't reach your opponent? It's not like you need some combat turns to activate that thingy, you know?

[Cain]

are you forgetting that hackers can get 5IPs as well? Plus hackers and riggers advance much more quickly. So your TM will reach 5ips after a mundane hacker. Long term TMs are beeter so are all the awakened. It's part of the game. Adepts cost 5bp to take why? They can be just as powerful as a Mage. Mistical adepts are the best in the game long term no astral projection but they can own meat with there spells and powers.

Ok, if deckers and riggers advance more quickly, and can also achieve 5 IP's, just what are otaku good for, anyway?

Prior to Unwired, it took a ridiculous amount of karma for an otaku to match a well-built starting decker, and even more ridiculous amounts to significantly exceed one. Not to mention that the decker would be earning karma as well; plus the fact that he could buy or create better equipment to give him a significant boost, as well as being able to use cyber. The karma expenditure was so ridiculous, it exceeded the amount you were likely to earn in a normal campaign, and meant every other character should be a walking god.

Now, we have group initiations and ordeals available, which potentially reduces that karma cost. However, it doesn't change the cost to raise your Resonance stat, which is essential to improve an otaku's abilities. So, the karma cost is sill very high. If the Echoes don't allow them to exceed normal deckers, then they're back where they started: hideously underpowered in comparison to the decker. But if the Echos *do* allow them to exceed normal deckers, they become game-breakers after a certain point.

Is there a balance point?

[Dumori]

Now, we have group initiations and ordeals available, which potentially reduces that karma cost. However, it doesn't change the cost to raise your Resonance stat, which is essential to improve an otaku's abilities. So, the karma cost is sill very high. If the Echoes don't allow them to exceed normal deckers, then they're back where they started: hideously underpowered in comparison to the decker. But if the Echos *do* allow them to exceed normal deckers, they become game-breakers after a certain point.

Is there a balance point?

by the time the TM is more powerful than the decker the decker will have moved in to other fields or be just behind devoting huge amounts of time to getting evrything7+. But look at the adpet and the sam the same problem happens after a lot of karma adepts and TMs can power up infinitely (or close to) given enough karma but mundanes can not.

[Cain]

by the time the TM is more powerful than the decker the decker will have moved in to other fields or be just behind devoting huge amounts of time to getting evrything7+. But look at the adpet and the sam the same problem happens after a lot of karma adepts and TMs can power up infinitely (or close to) given enough karma but mundanes can not.

Infinite power-ups require infinite karma, which doesn't ever happen in reality.

Essentially, what I see is this: by the time an otaku has earned enough karma to actually significantly exceed the starting decker, you've already gone past the point where most campaigns would stop. By the time the otaku has earned enough karma to reach a place where no decker can match him, every other character should be a living legend already.

So, the "infinite power-up" is a myth, as is the otaku PC as a matrix god. It simply won't happen in the course of a normal game.

The new Echoes complicate this equation somewhat, but it doesn't solve the issue. Starting otaku remain noticeably underpowered in relation to starting deckers; and they still need to earn ridiculous amounts of karma to equal them, let alone exceed them. And in the meanwhile, as the otaku is repeatedly initiating and raising his resonance, the decker is not only raising his skills higher than the otaku, but also getting better programs and gear.

[Aaron]

You do play with Compiling and Threading, ne?

[Cain]

You do play with Compiling and Threading, ne?

Threading is overrated, although I haven't seen it with the new Threading Options in play yet. Basically, it still doesn't really allow an otaku to exceed a decker, and it causes drain.

Sprites are another issue. They're sometimes more powerful and versatile than the summoners. That leads to a bundle of issues all its own. On the balance of things, though, they don't completely close the gap between a decker and otaku. One agent is no match for a sprite, but a botnet will eat sprites for breakfast. And don't start spouting that an Agent Smith army isn't possible or easy; I just looked at that section. Sure, each one needs a separate Access ID, but the very next paragraph tells you how to Spoof that ID. Since an agent's Access ID cannot be altered once spoofed, all you have to do is assign a different ID number to each agent copy, spoofing each one individually. This actually makes the problem worse; instead of handwaving the upload of agents, you have to make five hundred separate Spoof rolls.