Pardon me if this has been brought up... My search fu is weak and I haven't been on the boards in a long time.

Some of the technomancer echoes are deciedly overpowered. Biowire, E-sensing, Acceleration, Mesh Reality

However some seem nifty, such as swap and sprite link. and perhaps should be adapted to magic. Additionally swap should be an advanced echo or metamagic based off of a centering like ability. Sprite link is fine.

Are their any opinions how to fix the abusive echos or how to adapt some of them?

Could you elaborate on that? What do you mean when you say that the echoes you mentioned overpowered?

Overall, the technos got MUCH better/more interesting initiation perks than mages:

The overclocking/biowire/mesh reality/accelerationX3/advanced overclocking route will give the technomancer the equivalent of skillwires (rating = submersion) and 5 initiative passes in VR and 4 in meatspace simultaneously (i.e. total of 5 passes, at least 1 of which must be used as VR.)

Taking Swap twice reduces their threading sustaining penalty to zero.

Sprite Link allows him to summon sprites that didn't even exist in the rules when his character was made. (Playing a base-book mage....it'd be nice to be able to summon guardian or task spirits, but that option isn't open, and can't simply be bought through initiation.)


Overall, the devs may have overreacted slightly to the "technomancers suck" attitude. At this point, I'd call them frighteningly overpowered, except it takes a couple hundred karma to really get there.

Biowire: Calculate the Karma cost for it so you can use it on any level and compare it to the Cost of Skillwires. Now they aren't that overpowered anymore, nej?

E-Sensing: Please explain how this is overpowered.

Accleration: Again, calculate and compare cost.

Mesh Reality: Explain please.



QFT But, does it really matter if it takes hundreds of karma?

Well, if you let them submerge at chargen, and use the karmagen rules, they've GOT 300+ karma to play with, relative to a 400bp character.

no they don't

TM are the only Chars, that really need 650+ Karma an Chargen, if you compare a 400BP against Karmagen.

CFs are really expensive in Karma

cya
Tycho

Meh - the route to power for a technomancer has always been sprite-focused...though a maxed out stealth with threading on top of it never hurts.

Er ... all for the low-low price of 112 Karma (68 if you're part of a network and do seven submersion tasks).


Could you offer an example of a non-technomancer character that does not become frighteningly overpowered with a couple hundred Karma?

Aside from the generalist? (GM: "you've got a 4 in EVERYTHING?") After all, a lot of folks around here think a dice pool of 15 should be considered 'average.'

Yes for 112 Karma you can be as you say overpowered lets break it down

avg 3 karma per game session

38 game session

playing every two weeks you could become "overpowered" in a year and a half congrats!

Woot! Lets start with that straight after mental attributes, complex forms and the occasional skill. What? Increasing physical attributes via ware costs even more karma due to resonance loss? Damn.

(And slash Biowire from the list, those 4 karma per skill are more expensive than a point of resonance lost to cyberware fast)

Because I already have something handy: (built with 400BP +117Karma and +200k )

explanation: blue states a "after chargen"



Old School Elite "Mess with the best, die like the rest"

Race: Norm (0BP)

Qualities: (+10BP)
positive (25BP)
Ambidexterious (5BP)
Codeslinger (Hacking on the fly) (10BP)
Biocombatablility (Cyberware) (10BP)

negative (+35B)
Allergie (unc/med)
Addiction (Betel/mild)
Augmentation Addict
Spirit Bane
(or something else for 35BP)

Attr: (220BP+ 63 Karma)

physical/mental (200BP+ 63 Karma)
Bod: 6 (40BP+18 Karma)
Agi: 5 (7) (40BP)
Rea: 5 (9) (40BP)
Str: 2 (4) (0BP+6 Karma)
Cha: 2 (0BP+6 Karma)
Int: 6 (40BP+18 Karma)
Log: 3 (0BP+15 Karma)
Wil: 5 (40BP)

special (20BP)
Edge: 4 (20BP)
Ess: 0,01

Initiative: 14; 3IP
Matrix Ini: 20; 5IP

Skills: (132BP+ 54 Karma)

Cracking Gruppe 4 (40BP)
-Hacking (Exploit) 6 (24 Karma)
-Cybercombat 4
-Elec. Warfare (Communication) 4 (2 Karma)
Elektronik Gruppe 4 (40BP)
-Computer (Analyse) 6 (24 Karma)
-Data Search (Warez) 4 (2 Karma)
-Software 4
-Hardware 4
Automatics (Machine Pistols) 6 (24BP + 2 Karma)
Dodge 4 (6) (16BP)
Perception 3 (12BP)

Connections (8BP):
Cracker (Loy 4, Con 4)


Gear:(50BP)
Ware:

Cyberware [5,34]:
Commlink (alpha, Adapsin) 0,12 4200Y
Datajack (alpha, Adapsin) 0,06 1000Y
Encephalon 2 (2nd Hand) 1,62 37500Y
Math SPU (Adapsin) 0,12 4500
Simsence Booster (2nd Hand) 0,54 32500Y
Cybereye IV (Adapsin) 0,4 1500Y
-IR 1000Y
-LV 1000Y
-Smart 1000Y
-Vision Enh. 3 4500Y
-Flash 750Y
Move by Wire 2 (Adapsin) 2,4 85000Y
Skillwire Expert System (Adapsin) 0,08 3000Y

Bioware [1,0]:
Muskel Toner 2 0,4 16000Y
Muskel Augmentation 2 0,4 14000Y
Platelet Factories 0,2 25000Y


Genware [0,3]:
Adapsin 0,2 40000Y
PuShed 0,1 15000Y
Sideways Infusions (temp) each 1000Y

=140000Y + 148450Y

Commlink:
Commlink (implantiert)
Res: 6 (8000Y)
Sig: 6 (3000Y)
Sys: 6 (3000Y)
Fir: 6 (3000Y)
-Optimization for Exploit (500Y)
-Costume Interface (250Y)
-Resonance Enhancer 6 (12000Y)
-Simsence Acceleration (15000Y)

Software (all illegal for 10%):
Purge (Virus Resistance 3, Ergonomic) 6
Analyse (Ergonomic) 6
Encrypt (Ergonomic) 6
Stealth (Ergonomic) 6
Edit (Ergonomic, Mute) 6
Exploit (Mute) 6
Attack (Targeting, Rust, Armor Piercing 3) 6
Blackout (Targeting, Rust, Armor Piercing 3) 6
Black Hammer (Targeting, Rust, Armor Piercing 3) 6
Armor (Ergonomic) 6
all other programs 6

Cost:
8*Common Use 6 = 480Y
18*Hacking 6 = 10800Y
1*Viral Resistance = 30Y
6*Ergonomic = 180Y
2*Mute = 60Y
3*Rust = 675Y
3*Targeting = 675Y
3*Armor Piercing 3 = 675Y
= 13575Y

Pistol Skillsoft (Pluscode 3) 4
Longarms Skillsoft (Pluscode 3) 4
Heavy Waepon Skillsoft (Pluscode 3) 4
Unarmed Skillsoft (Pluscode 3) 4
Pilot Groundcraft Skillsoft (Pluscode 3) 4
Ettikette Skillsoft (Pluscode 3) 4
Negotiation Skillsoft (Pluscode 3) 4
Con Skillsoft (Pluscode 3) 4
Running (Pluscode 3) 4
Swimming (Pluscode 3) 4
Climbing (Pluscode 3) 4
Gymnastic (Pluscode 3) 4
Infiltration (Pluscode 3) 4

each 1500Y
13*1500Y=19500Y

Shadowing Skillsoft 4
Demolition Skillsoft 4
Medizin Skillsoft 4
Survival Skillsoft 4
Tracking Skillsoft 4
Navigation Skillsoft 4
Arcana Skillsoft 4
Palming Skillsoft 4
Armorer Skillsoft 4
Locksmith Skillsoft 4
Forgery Skillsoft 4


11*1200Y=13200Y

over all cost:
186275Y+186450Y

for the carryover: 77275Y

Agent 6 (Mook modifiziert)
-Cascading 3
-Expert Offensive 3

maybe some more Skillsofts

Fake SIN

Weapon:

Ares Crusader (GV3, Personalised Grip, Smartlink, impr. Rangefinder, additional Clip)
Dam---AP----Mode------RC----Ammo
4K------------SA,BF-------4-----2*30©

Ares Alpha (Additional Clip, Gas Vent 3, Personalized Grip, Improved Range Finder, Foregrip, Shockpad)
Dam---AP----Mode------RC----Ammo
6K-------1----SA-FA------8-----2*42©

Armor:

Form Fitting Body Armor, Full Body+
SWAT Armor + Helmet + PPP (all custome made)
=> Bal 21/Stoß 15 (without Encumbrance)
or
Heavy Mil Grade Armor (Weapon Arm (, Gyro (4), Hydaulic Jacks 5 (6), Strengh Upgrade 2 (2)) + Helm (upgraded, Biomonitor)
Bal 18/Stoß 16


Elektronic Tools
RFID Eraser
Sat Uplink
Medikit 6
Biomonitor

Low Livestyle (spoofed)

Muni and Trivia



Dicepools:

Node Hacking: (Skill 6 + Spec 2 + Prog 6 + Optimization 1 + Hot Sim 2 + Encephalon 2 + Pushed 1 + maybe Codeslinger 2) = 22w (on th fly); 20w
Encryption/Decryption: (Skill 4 + Math SPU 2 + Prog 6 + Hot Sim 2 + Encephalon 2 + Pushed 1) = 17w
Cybercombat: (Skill 4 + Prog 6 + Targeting 2 + Hot Sim 2 + Encephalon 2 + Pushed 1 + Sideways 1) = 18w
Matrix everything else: (Skill 4/6 + Prog 6 + Hot Sim 2 + Encephalon 2 + Pushed 1 + maybe Spec) = 15w-19w

Matrix Ini (Res 6 + Intution 6 + Hot Sim 1 + Costum Interface 1 + Responce Enhancer 6)= 20
Initative (Rea 5(9)+Int 6)= 15

fireing Ares Alpha (Automatics 6 + Agi 7 + Smart 2 + 1 Sideways) = 15w (bursts without penalty)
fireing 2 Ares Crusader ((Automatics 6 + Agi 7)/2+Spec 2 + Sideways 1)=10w/9w
Dodge (full dodge): (Rea 6(9) + 2 Sideways +(Dodge 4 + MbW 2) = 11w (17w)
Perception (Int 6 + Perception 3 + Sideways 1 + maybe Vision Enh 3) 10w (13w if visual)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

so I hope I don't miss something in my translation.


a TM is not that good with the same amount of Cash and Karma...

cya
Tycho

E-sensing shouldn't be there it was a mistake. The adapt questio was would it be reasonable to adapt swap ans sprite link to be metamagic techniques?

Mesh reality is overpowevered becuase a minus four is not a huge penelty with the insanly large dicepools you can get.

Most SR4 games I've been in give out 4-6 karma per session. Let's average that to 5.

23 game sessions.

In home games, most people get together weekly. So, that takes the time down to under 6 months.

That's not including Group initiations and ordeals. That's 68 karma, right?

14 game sessions, or a little over 3 months. In other words, if you started playing at the start of summer, you'd be there now.

The issue I'm having is that with Acceleration, drone riggers are going to become obsolete. There's nothing that a drone rigger can do that an otaku cannot; and now, they can even break a core rule.

There are more important things to increase with karma than submerging. A start TM has very low physical Attr. very little Skills outside Matrix etc.

Moreover most GM won't let you submerge with all karma you earned, just like a mage a TM has to gain a certain level of maturity, before he can submerge.

cya
Tycho

Biowire is overpowered only because Skillwires are overpowered - a discussion I will not get into here.

E-Sensing I have difficulty judging - it may be overpowered, but does not immediately strike me as such.

Acceleration - Much cheaper to obtain with 'ware. I can see it's appeal, but I consider it a wasted Echo.

Mesh Reality - One of the few I actually like, it is not overpowering. Yes, you negate a -6 Dice Pool Modifier with it, but due to the circumstances, that only ever really comes into play if you are using Hot Sim VR in the middle of combat - nice once you get access to it, but not something that would cause to much difficulty for any reason. You cannot take more actions than you are normally allowed with it. Considering the price to obtain it, it is very reasonable.

What's most important to raise is highly subjective. Given that a starting otaku is behind the curve vs a well-built starting decker, it's also important to build up your matrix abilities. Some would say that it's even more important.

As far as submersion goes, I've never seen a GM deny a mage or otaku the chance to initiate. I've *heard* of some cases when the mage hadn't been using magic very much, but that happens rarely.

My point is that starting otaku are still underpowered, until and unless they earn enough karma to initiate repeatedly and get the echoes that will make them game-breaking. I mean, 5 IP's and a combat drone means they're more than a match for any street sammie.

That's when Signal Jamming comes in handy. No Signal, No TM controlled Drone.

are you forgetting that hackers can get 5IPs as well? Plus hackers and riggers advance much more quickly. So your TM will reach 5ips after a mundane hacker. Long term TMs are beeter so are all the awakened. It's part of the game. Adepts cost 5bp to take why? They can be just as powerful as a Mage. Mistical adepts are the best in the game long term no astral projection but they can own meat with there spells and powers.

What use do you have with 5 IPs when you can't reach your opponent? It's not like you need some combat turns to activate that thingy, you know?

Ok, if deckers and riggers advance more quickly, and can also achieve 5 IP's, just what are otaku good for, anyway?

Prior to Unwired, it took a ridiculous amount of karma for an otaku to match a well-built starting decker, and even more ridiculous amounts to significantly exceed one. Not to mention that the decker would be earning karma as well; plus the fact that he could buy or create better equipment to give him a significant boost, as well as being able to use cyber. The karma expenditure was so ridiculous, it exceeded the amount you were likely to earn in a normal campaign, and meant every other character should be a walking god.

Now, we have group initiations and ordeals available, which potentially reduces that karma cost. However, it doesn't change the cost to raise your Resonance stat, which is essential to improve an otaku's abilities. So, the karma cost is sill very high. If the Echoes don't allow them to exceed normal deckers, then they're back where they started: hideously underpowered in comparison to the decker. But if the Echos *do* allow them to exceed normal deckers, they become game-breakers after a certain point.

Is there a balance point?

by the time the TM is more powerful than the decker the decker will have moved in to other fields or be just behind devoting huge amounts of time to getting evrything7+. But look at the adpet and the sam the same problem happens after a lot of karma adepts and TMs can power up infinitely (or close to) given enough karma but mundanes can not.

Infinite power-ups require infinite karma, which doesn't ever happen in reality.

Essentially, what I see is this: by the time an otaku has earned enough karma to actually significantly exceed the starting decker, you've already gone past the point where most campaigns would stop. By the time the otaku has earned enough karma to reach a place where no decker can match him, every other character should be a living legend already.

So, the "infinite power-up" is a myth, as is the otaku PC as a matrix god. It simply won't happen in the course of a normal game.

The new Echoes complicate this equation somewhat, but it doesn't solve the issue. Starting otaku remain noticeably underpowered in relation to starting deckers; and they still need to earn ridiculous amounts of karma to equal them, let alone exceed them. And in the meanwhile, as the otaku is repeatedly initiating and raising his resonance, the decker is not only raising his skills higher than the otaku, but also getting better programs and gear.

You do play with Compiling and Threading, ne?

Threading is overrated, although I haven't seen it with the new Threading Options in play yet. Basically, it still doesn't really allow an otaku to exceed a decker, and it causes drain.

Sprites are another issue. They're sometimes more powerful and versatile than the summoners. That leads to a bundle of issues all its own. On the balance of things, though, they don't completely close the gap between a decker and otaku. One agent is no match for a sprite, but a botnet will eat sprites for breakfast. And don't start spouting that an Agent Smith army isn't possible or easy; I just looked at that section. Sure, each one needs a separate Access ID, but the very next paragraph tells you how to Spoof that ID. Since an agent's Access ID cannot be altered once spoofed, all you have to do is assign a different ID number to each agent copy, spoofing each one individually. This actually makes the problem worse; instead of handwaving the upload of agents, you have to make five hundred separate Spoof rolls.

hum so having a rating 12 CF is no better that a rating 6 program...

Then oh no TMs can use programs and bot nets too.

Not once you factor in Drain and sustaining penalties, not really.

And the rules are very clear that the otaku uses for Computer/Hacking skills and the normal uses are incompatible. Otaku cannot use their Software skill to code programs for deckers to use; they need to buy the skill twice for that. They also can't run normal programs and agents on their Living Persona. So they actually can't get full use out of programs and botnets unless they invest into decker skills as well as their special otaku skills. Which would put them even further behind the curve.

Threading is very powerful when used correctly - especially with Stealth & Attack Programs. It also makes a Technomancer more-or-less immune to Signal Jamming.

As for Agent Smith, it was clearly stated in one of the Unwired threads at release that Spoofing Access ID's for Agents was a mistaken addition (I believe based on earlier drafts), and is scheduled for errata. To create a new Access ID for an Agent, you must program it into it's code - a process taking weeks. So, yes, Agent Smith is still possible, but far from quick or easy.

Wait, we are talking about the same edition, right?

the rules say that the skills for TMs and hackers are different. it doesn't say a thing about them having different effects.

a TM may have a different computer skill, and use different tools (CFs, specifically) to accomplish the task, but when you do a matrix perception test, the TM doesn't fail to analyse normal programs because they're not resonance based. likewise, just because the TM spoofs with his TM hacking skill + spoof CF, it doesn't mean that somehow he can't spoof an agent's access ID, it just means he does it differently. if you're going to argue the rules, please don't make stuff up.

(and on the subject of spoofing access IDs, the version of doing that which takes a very minimal amount of time is to be errated. there is a way of doing it by patching that is supposed to be the only way, and it requires weeks per copy of the agent you're trying to make).

so yes, the technomancer *can* use botnets just like a hacker can. and because he isn't dedicating his money to buying patches for his programs, upgrading his 'ware, or buying new programs/options, he can also have a drone army too, and save up for retiring if he wants.

that said, i'm not about to bother discussing this with Cain. it's a waste of time.

Nope as far as i read it they just need a comlink and to buy the stuff. As even there hard wear skill id "diffrent" what dose that mean the Otaku have a useless skill?

Edit: Jaid beat me and said my point better

Well you use hardware for hacking things like maglocks. So it isn't useless, they just jack with it differently than a normal person would do.

Do you have a link for that?

Considering that's not what I said, I wonder who's making stuff up.

I said that agents and botnets can't run on a otaku's Living Persona. This is completely correct; otaku can't use normal programs, they need Complex Forms instead. In order to run an agent and botnet, they need a commlink, and the skills to use it effectively. Their skills, however, aren't compatible with normal commlink usage; in order to do that, they need to buy the skill twice.


Sure, they "can" do it, but only by doing it exactly like a decker would. In other words, using the normal version of the skills (not the special version they already have) and spending money on commlinks and programs, as well as patches. So he wouldn't be able to afford that drone army, since he's spending just as much money as a normal decker (more, actually, since his Software skill can't be used to code normal programs).

Basically, it comes down to this section of the BBB:

The problem here is that buying the normal version of the skill basically duplicates a lot of what an otaku can already do. So, it's basically "useless", since it doesn't really improve his abilities any.

but in reality TMs would need less programs as only agents and other secilised programs are needed. And nothign says sprites can't code (as far as I can tell)

They'd still need the normal versions of the skills. And no sprite has the Software skill, except for Tutor sprites; and it doesn's specify which version of the skill it has. However, since it can teach the skill to otaku, I'd assume it means the otaku version.

But cant a tutor take any skill as an option much like a task spirit? thus could teach the mundane verson.

no skills are required to give your agents commands. you can house an agent in just about anything, and the TM can subscribe to a botnet just like a regular hacker can. no hardware is required for a botnet, at least on the player's side, because you're actually just hacking other people's hardware to house the botnet for you. a technomancer *does* have to buy a single copy of an agent (just like the hacker) but that is the only monetary expense.

sure, you can't run an agent on your living persona (unless your GM supports the interpretation that there is such a thing as an agent CF, which is shaky at best, and probably not worth discussing in the context here). but then again, a player might get maybe 3-4 agents on a rather nice setup, likewise a technomancer can get 3-4 sprites relatively easily (without having to buy them, crack them, patch them, etc). if chosen carefully, the abilities of those sprites can be much more impressive than the abilities of an agent.

so then, now that i've gone back on my word and decided to discuss this further with you, please tell me, Cain... what skills does the technomancer need to have a botnet that they won't have just from being a technomancer? what hardware do they need to run a botnet?

as for your spoofing Agent's ID question, the thread is here (and conveniently the post in question *should* be right on your screen when you follow that link, if i'm not mistaken in how the link i followed to get that URL works).

A Command program is helpful in giving orders to agents. Also, agents require programs, just like deckers do. So, you'll still need to get an Exploit, Attack, and Stealth program for it if you want to do anything useful with it. A botnet is also a VPN, which is not only another program, but one that requires a commlink to use; it helps you with your subscription list. Oh, and if you want that VPN to remain secure, you'll need an Encrypt program as well. And don't forget to add the Adaptation autosoft, since they'll be making a lot of independent decisions.

That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure that there are others. Anyone else want to fill in the blanks?


Otaku are expressly forbidden from buying an agent as a CF; that's what Sprites are for. (BBB, p 233.) And yes, pound for pound, an agent is no match for a sprite. The simple fact that sprites have Edge should prove that. However, sprites are no match for agents en masse, and it's much easier to get a horde of agents than it is to get a lot of sprites. In fact, it's impossible to have more sprites than your Charisma +1. It's easy to get a lot of agents, it just takes a bit of time.

I went over hardware and programs earlier. They'll need a commlink and certain programs, at the very minimum. Skill-wise, they need the normal Software skill to keep patching their programs and agents, as well as the ability to code their own. The normal Computer skill is helpful as well.


Thank you. However, that leads me to a different problem. Namely, agents don't need an access ID if they're being run on a persona. So, you could program an agent as a virus, and have all the copies that are online at a given time open a connection to the same node, and attack that way. You can also bundle a bunch of commlinks into a super-commlink, allowing you to run a lot of agents at once on your persona.

While i fully understand that some groups might prefer a more exclusive approach towards initiation, i thouroughly hope that it is not the majority of GMs who would rule that an average starting mage with Magic 5, one magical skillgroup at 4, and at least one additional magical skill at 5 or probably 6 and good basic knowledge in most, if not all remaining arcane skills, combined with a good selection of spells and probably also some sort of special talent and aptitude (read : magic-related qualities), in other words : someone who is to be considered an expert magic user by normal metahuman standards, is not "mature" enough to initiate.

In fact, i might consider to collegially slap that fellow on the head with my copy of the BBB.

Street Magic claims that it is not unusual to initiate while you're still at college.
The average magical group in Europe is, according to that source, a circle of students who will help each other in their studies.

When a bunch of drunken frat-boys from Corps Astralia Jenensis are allowed to initiate, i would be at least majorly disappointed if my kick-ass shadowrunner spellslinger "is not ready yet".

Moreover, it is indicated in the fluff section that most mages will put all their effort into their magical studies, that these will consume most of their time and training, as magic is such a demanding art to handle.
In game terms : it is perfectly normal that all your karma is sunken into magic-related stuff.

Excuse the threadnap.

I'm pretty sure he meant that most GM don't let mages pend all their karma going iniate,iniate,iniate....
or techno submerge,submerge,submerge...

Why wouldn't they? In addition to the fact you'd need a good in-game reason, it's one of the paths to a more effective character.

That was what i was referring to partially.

What i consider an average starting mage (a slightly sub-optimal build by standards on this board, BTW) is already so good at magic that it could make sense to head for the higher mysteries, to get to the deepest magical secrets, to form a stronger link to his totems, commune with the Loa, walk the path to true enlightenment or however you want to call it with all the determination one can bring up.

In other words : to initiate, initiate, initiate, initiate.

It is not the only way to handle it, and if you only use karma for initiation or submersion, it might mechanically not be the best choice, as just piling up ranks of initiation or submersion without raising your most important attribute (Magic/Resonance) will have its disadvantages.

Not even taking into account that it means not being able to learn new spells/CFs or improve your skills, not to mention becomming less of a liability once you're outside of that precious PMV.

When you suck at anything not matrix-related, having 5 IP just means sucking more often.

Thanks, i'll continue breaking the game with mages.

this just made me giggle uncontrollably, thank you

I'm not sure it works like that.


I'm pretty sure it works like that, though.


I'm really not sure we're talking about the same edition, here.

alright, cain, let's try this again:

show me (ie give me a quote from the book) that says technomancers cannot program with their software skill. they do not need to take it as a normal skill. just like they don't need to take hacking as a normal skill in order to hack a non-resonance based node, they do not need to take software as a non-technomancer skill in order to program non-resonance based programs. until you can show me a quote that actually says anything about the end result of the technomancer hacking skills, and not just the means by which said result is brought about, technomancers can do everything with their technomancer skills that normal hackers can do with their normal hacker skills.

i will allow that you need a bit more than just the agent itself to set up a botnet, but he still doesn't need a commlink. there is nothing to support this interpretation. technomancer's living personas can subscribe to normal nodes, programs, etc, meaning that a technomancer can subscribe to a botnet just like a normal hacker could.

[edit] oh, and also... for your cracked agents on the one super commlink? you can't run multiple copies of the same access ID agent on one node. you know, like for example, your commlink's node. so sure, whatever node you log in to won't detect that all your agents have the same access ID, your *own* node will, and it will reject them other than the first. your worms (i can only assume you meant worms, since you can't have a virus that *is* an agent, per se) still have the same access ID problem as normal agents. they can replicate, but that duplicate copy is still a duplicate copy, and it still has the same access ID. the whole point of a worm is that it can infect *other* devices it comes in contact with, not that you can have a million of one agent on the same device.

also, good catch on the 'no agents as CFs' thing. it's a bit odd, considering unwired indicates that dissonance technomancers have been able to create worm CFs, iirc (though no rules are given, i'll assume that's just an innacurate matrix rumor i guess... ie that it was an accident the writers put that in) [/edit]

Or that the worm CF is an odd type of sprite.

p. 110-111, Unwired

A botnet requires a VPN. A VPN is a program that allows an alteration to a commlink's subscription list. Otaku cannot run normal programs on their Living Persona; they require CF's for that. I grant that you might be able to get around this by developing a VPN CF, but that'd be very iffy at best. A commlink would certainly be easier.


Sorry, but you *are* specifically allowed to run multiple copies of one agent on your own commlink:

It also doesn't stop someone from using an agent along with a Hijacker trojan; at a given time, all the infected devices that are online open a connection to the target node, and the agents begin a mass hack attack. Since they're all on someone else's persona, they are all using different access ID's.

in order to be on someone else's persona, they would have to be with that person's persona, being actively controlled by that persona. if they are taking orders from you, they are clearly not being actively controlled by the persona they're attached to, and therefore don't have that persona's access ID.

a VPN is not a program that modifies your subscription list. it's a list of people (or agents, in this case) which will receive communications when you send them out. if the technomancer has a host somewhere with that list, he can just subscribe to it, and it works just the same. that node could be an RFID you pulled off of your shirt that used to have instructions for washing, for all the difference it makes (and is therefore effectively free), you just need a list of who you're sending stuff to.

i have to say i find it odd that multiple copies of the same agent can be on the same persona, but i suppose that does expand the hacker slightly. at this point, however, the hacker still has to invest in multiple commlinks (or a nexus, or whatever) to run them all, which is going to cost money, and he's gonna have to carry around whatever it is he's got holding all these agents somewhere. due to clustering rules, he can probably even get an infinite amount of them given an infinite amount of money (which is about as relevant as infinite karma technomancers, i think you'll agree, so let's not go there, shall we?) of course, it still isn't very useful, because the agent smith army still has all kinds of problems with stealth, subtlety, and what kind of response you're going to get to your action. it's not particularly a problem any more than the fact that you could probably hire a small gang to try and assault the corporate facility you were supposed to do a run on. sure, you could pay some gang to try to smash their way through the security, get into the secret lab, grab the prototype, and leave, but you can bet mr. J won't be happy about your solution, even if the gang somehow actually succeeds. so yes, you can *try* to hack stuff with your agent smith army, but if you do that, you probably get visited by hackers from all over the world who get called in to telecommute to nuke you. best case scenario, once your army is spotted a spider will just shut down the system, leaving you with nothing. thus, agent smith tactics make for a decently effective denial of service attack, kinda like a go-gang might make a decent distraction, but you wouldn't want to rely on your army for proper hacking anyways, just like you wouldn't send a go-gang into a secure corporate facility to steal a prototype.

Hmm...no.



Read for comprehension, Cain...not to prove SR4 sucks.

Edit: and before you say they have different IDs because they're running off different devices. NO! Read the bloody rules! Unless you do the multi-week reprogramming test, they have the same ID.