Not true. Your agent is autonomous, it can act separately from you even if it's running on your persona. In fact, you can easily spoof an agent on someone's persona, and get it to attack its owner.

A virus is basically an agent running on your persona, and it definitely does not need to take orders from you.


You are incorrect. See Unwired, p 94:

And if that's not enough for you, let's look at p 100:


I underlined the relevant word. A VPN requires a program to run on your commlink, that modifies your subscription list. You need a program to run a VPN, and otaku do not use programs, they use CFs.

I agree that the infinite money thing isn't likely; however, it's cheap and easy to get 10 5/5 commlinks at chargen. Now that they can be networked, you can have a starting character with a lot of agents running on his persona. Getting even more commlinks is easy; you just take them from bodies, and network them. Granted, it won't be as easy; but you can easily reach a point where you could run a hundred agents from your commlink.

I'll agree that subtlety isn't one of their strong points; but an Agent Smith army can easily overwhelm a node, taking up all its persona slots, and making it hard for opposing deckers to get in. Sending in massive amounts of IC doesn't help, as you'll rapidly overwhelm your node's processing power, and drop their Response to 0. In other words, it's still a highly-effective tactic. Like all tactics, there's a time and a place to use them; but they're still quite useful for a lot of hacking attempts.

Not because they're running on different devices; because they're running on different *personas*.


So, you not only do agents on a persona use the persona's access ID, you can run multiple copies of the same agent off of a persona.

OK, so you admit you haven't actually read the rules, and are just pulling quotes to "prove" your side.

Right.


You've obviously got the pdf version - you might actually want to search for the term "agent smith" before you continue making a fool of yourself.

Yes, so what? There aren't any errata that I'm aware of, and if you have something better than a direct quote from the rules, you should post it before flaming.

Do you have anything substantial to add, or do you just want to keep insulting me whenever I point out a rule is broken?

I've pointed you at the relevant pages a few times already.

You still haven't read them.

You've stated FALSE claims repeatedly.

And you can't be bothered to note that the rules flat-out state that "Agent Smith" does not work.

Get over yourself.

What's false about a single thing I've stated?

The rules also say you can spoof the Access ID of an agent, allowing you to upload multiple copies that way. Synner says that's going to be fixed in the first errata, though, so I haven't been harping on that one.

The only place where the book says anything about "Agent Smith" is this:

The book then goes on to describe multiple approaches that show how to make Agent Smith work.

All you've done is point to the exact same page, and say: "See! Agent Smith doesn't work because it says it doesn't work!" You haven't pointed to a single actual mechanic that hasn't been already defeated by multiple people here, including myself.

So, again, do you have something to show where the rules I've quoted are actually wrong, or are you going to continue to use insults instead?

I came into this thread expecting to read an informative discussion about technomancer echoes , but all I see is threadcrapping. Sad.

NOBODY says you can't have multiple agents attacking - just that the agent smith trick doesn't work.

Simply put: cheap, quick, or effective...choose two.
It's the engineer's dilemma.

You can get cheap and effective, but time consuming: the multi-week ID hacking.
You can get quick and effective, but expensive: purchasing multiple agents.
You can get quick and cheap, but ineffective: the agent smith scenario, where multiple copies of the same agent are used.

Since only one of those is the agent smith scenario, and it explicitly doesn't work, repeatedly claiming it does is pointless. If you want to call all 3 "agent smith," go right ahead, but be prepared to have people tell you you're wrong over and over again.

BTW: "operating independently in different nodes" falls apart when they're accessing the same node...which they kinda have to do to be a multi-agent attack. I'd also like to see a rules reference that says an agent can pretend to be someone else's persona...everything I can find implies that an agent running off of a hacked commlink is effectively just using their system and signal, but remains an agent, NOT a persona. Two hackers working together might be able to use the same copy of an agent, but as far as I can tell, a persona requires a person.


P.S. Sorry Abschalten - the first page was mostly useful at least.

The rules are very explicit that you can have multiple copies of the same agent running on one persona. I'll refer you to Frank Trollman's "Hackastack" trick for the full details; what I'm suggesting is just a modification off of that trick. If you use a trojan to implant your agent onto multiple commlinks, the agent would definitely qualify as part of the persona; it'd be just another program on their loadout.

MrUnpronouncable.karma++;

OK, so you've got a workable, and potentially interesting idea there.

But it's right back to the not-fast limitation:


So you'd need to target a specific OS/attractive-use program, that you somehow got hold of the source-code for (a run in itself) or coded yourself, months of lead-time, and users that aren't sufficiently skilled to notice the unusual activity (which shouldn't be too difficult...risky though.) Still not an agent-smith scenario, though.

Or you can buy one during chargen, or in game. Planting them isn't difficult; you just use the Mass Probe rules, and select the users you think are least likely to notice. You can also add the Metamorphic Engine option, which means they don't degrade.

I don't know why you're harping so much on a very specific definition of an "Agent Smith" scenario, but all right. The problem is that it's fairly easy to arrange for an army of agents to mass-attack a given target, no matter what name you choose to put on it. It's still cheap and effective, even if it's not quite as cheap or easy as it once was.

i don't know that i'd call agent smith particularly effective at anything other than denial of service attacks. and if the other side is able to just remove the antenna, it's not even very good for that.

and frankly, this *still* doesn't require any hacker skills to direct, and the skills it requires to set up are still well within the skill level of a technomancer. a device rating 1 shirt can run the VPN program, and it requires no actual skills at all to direct the botnet. this is not only available to both hackers and technomancers equally, it is also available to street sams, mages, adepts, riggers, faces, and pretty much anyone who has sufficient mental capacity to point out the digital target and send a message to the botnet to attack it. so pretty much anyone who doesn't have the uneducated flaw, more or less. heck, you could probably put an agent in charge of a botnet, for that matter, and even someone who *does* have the uneducated flaw could just give the order for the agent to launch a botnet attack on a target.

so yeah, a substandard tactic that most likely no one is going to bother paying an actual running team for anyways (may as well just hire some random script kiddy), and which requires absolutely no skills to use.

am i supposed to actually care about this? this is supposed to somehow make me believe that technomancers are weak? going back to the original point of the botnet discussion, you still haven't shown that it isn't available to technomancers. you've shown that they need a regular node (somewhere, which could be their clothes, or an RFID costing them less than 1 nuyen to buy) to run the program on, but they don't require any skills at all to order the botnet around, nor any special resources beyond what a hacker requires. the costs to buy the agent is the same, the cost to buy the program is the same... so how does this affect the balance between hacker and technomancer again?

Or mass matrix combats, and in the right circumstances, mass hacking attempts on a node.


I'm trying to find the reference, but I recall seeing that otaku cannot write normal programs. At any event, setting up the botnet requires a fair number of programs, if you want it to be effective. So, yes, it is available to anyone who spends the cash. However, an otaku can't run one off his living persona; so he needs to invest in decker skills and gear to utilize it fully. Otaku are also completely incapable of creating a CF that has the abilities of a virus, so they'd need to use the normal skill to program one.

Basically, an otaku who wants to utilize a botnet has to be part-decker as well. He has to waste points on skills and BP that overlap what he can already do.

A decker is going to get more bang for his buck, since he doesn't have to overlap his abilities. An otaku has to essentially "double up" on things, duplicating what he already has, in order to use this trick. When added to the other areas where an otaku is weaker than a decker, the difference is clear: a starting otaku cannot match a starting decker, unless he's part decker as well.

To bring this back on topic, the new Echos may or may not alter the point at which an otaku can match or exceed a starting decker. However, by the time you've earned that much karma, the decker will be better as well.

At availability (rating X 4)? Good luck, hope you maxed your negotiation and have a trustworthy source for your illegal software.


Because the devs gave it a very specific definition. I don't know anybody who likes it when a rules-lawyer drops a line like "It depends on what your definition of is is."

And, frankly, there's too much room for interpretation as is, we shouldn't really muddy the waters further with sloppy terminology. Remember the injection-vector loophole in SR3?

you're missing the point again.

what skills does the technomancer have to buy as normal skills? the only difference for a TM hacking a node to upload an agent is that the TM needs a separate storage device to upload the agent from, and the hacker can just use his commlink.

the only difference for a TM ordering a botnet around is that they have to route it through 1 extra device first, which need not have the capacity to run even a single rating 1 program.

and you still haven't got a quote that says anything about technomancers needing a separate software skill... and even if they do, it's not as if either a hacker or a TM are going to seriously consider coding anything anyways once the game starts (backstory, yes, but otherwise it's just not worth it to actually write your own code compared to running for a while and then just flat out buying the program you want). but like i said, before the lack of ability to code is proven to be a problem, you have to first prove that there is a lack of ability to write normal code using the technomancer version of the software skill.

you still haven't provided any actual evidence that the technomancer requires anything more than the regular set of technomancer skills to pull off this stunt. and until you do it doesn't even matter to this point whether an agent army is good at anything at all, because until you show that the technomancer *actually* needs to spend so much as a single point of karma (or 1 build point) on the regular versions of hacking/software/computer/etc, both a hacker and a technomancer can use this with equal skill.

So you can start with a Rating 3 trojan easily enough. I understand that Runners Companion allows you to push past the availability cap, so rating 4 or 5 isn't out of the question for a starting character.

At any event, it's not hard to have a character with the ability to unleash an army of agents, right out of the gate. It really doesn't matter if you call it "Agent Smith" or not; the fact is that the army or agents is still a viable and effective tactic, as well as being relatively cheap.

You also need the software skill to patch your illegal software. It's pretty clear that this isn't a normal part of the otaku skill set, since their CF's and Sprites never need patching.


You need to spend BP to get money. An otaku normally doesn't need to spend money (and thus, BP) on programs and commlinks. So, he's going to end up spending even more BP than he usually would, in order to duplicate a decker trick.

you still haven't shown that a technomancer can't patch using the technomancer software skill.

and who says the technomancer is starting with this? given a TM can likely spoof their lifestyle (or at the very least assuming they for some reason decided not to have the needed CF, have a sprite or a series of sprites spoof their lifestyle) and the fact that technomancers don't want any kind of 'ware, all they have to spend the money they gain from running on is software, drones, and retirement fund. shouldn't take long to build up enough nuyen to at least match what the hacker has coming out of the gate (or steal the needed software from someone he runs into at some point, whichever happens first). in any case, while it certainly isn't free at chargen, neither is it all that expensive either in it's most basic form. (and at it's most impressive, you're going to need to exceed chargen availability cap anyways, so if you want an impressive army you're going to want to wait for after chargen anyways, since you can only spend so many BP on qualities to break chargen availability cap).

so yeah, come back when you have some kind of actual proof that technomancers arbitrarily can't use their software skill for the same things a hacker can, in addition to their technomancer abilities.

Within he rules of the game, it's cheaper and easier to buy the required programs at chargen. Unfortunately, this also causes some redundancy in the character's abilities, which translates to wasted BP. Given the fact that it costs otaku a lot of BP to have the closet thing to a viable character possible, you can't really afford to be wasting BP on extraneous items.

Basically, there's no way a starting otaku can hope to match a well-built starting decker. Even though they can theoretically utilize this trick, it doesn't mean that they're the same as the starting decker. Deckers have ohter options that make them better, such as the ability to add cyber without hurting their abilities. Just because they can waste BP's to duplicate one decker ability, doesn't mean they are equal.

I assume you're talking about the clustering rules here. Devices with Persona and Processor Limits (Nexuses/Clusters) may only run [Response] Constructs.

Your example would only be able to run 5 pieces of IC or Agents regardless of how many commlinks you used to build it.

Squirrels are the source of all evil.

That's not what I get:

So, the processor limit of this stack is 25.

It's not very well worded and is directed at 'nexi' but I can't imagine you'll argue that mini-clusters of commlinks can ignore the rules that govern mainframes...

Actually, I will. A mainframe and a laptop is a totally different thing. No matter how many laptops I network together, it won't be the same thing as a massively huge mainframe.

Granted, this does mean the Nexi rules are essentially useless; you can accomplish much more just by networking commlinks. The only advantage of a nexus is that System can exceed Response. That fact alone means that nexi and clusters have different rules backing them.

Exactly, so clusters should not exceed the capabilities of Nexi? No?

YMMV. You'll run it however you like anyway.

Until errata appears I'm going to be treating Clusters as less powerful than Nexi. They have Persona and Processor Limits, that work just as a nexus's do, but their System is still limited by Response.

Squirrels are the source of all evil.

That's actually how it works right now. Only a nexus can have a System higher than Response. I guess that's what makes them "more powerful". Your cluster isn't allowed to do that, but it can do other things, like have a better Processor Limit.

but not run more than [Response] Constructs.

As you yourself pointed out, the restriction on "constructs" is limited to nexi. And even then, I find that a bit silly; that means you can only have (system) worms hiding on it. The easiest way to detect if you've got a worm would be to upload IC until you get a system degrade.

I agree it is a stupid rule, poorly worded and technically not compatible with the rules. It needs a massive dose of Errata.

It's intent, however is to limit Constructs running on a node to Response. As Nexi are the most powerful form of node all less powerful nodes should inherit that property. If Clusters did not have this same limitation the Darwinian laws of commerce would dictate that all Nexi would become Clusters.

It is a gray area in the rules. Thing is, all game systems have a very large number of small gray areas and if every time you find a gray area you err on the side of a 'broken' interpretation is it any wonder that your opinion of the system is that it is broken?

I suppose the difference is that I don't consider it to be a grey area. I do agree that it's silly, and in need of errata.

This wouldn't be the first time that a broken and silly rule ended up sticking; but that's a topic for another thread.

I also don't think that just because a supercomputer has limits, that automatically applies to all lesser computers. You can't run Windows on a Cray.

Roleplaying!!!

You don't need Shadowrun to be a hacker.

The chances of becoming a real life Adept are very slim, a real life Magician - even slimmer (most would say your chances are zero). A smartlink is possible, a trode net, too.

The chances that you might UGE into a real life Troll, an Ork, Elf, Dwarf - you make the call. The chances that you might SURGE?

The chances that the mult-national megacorps might become the de-facto world rulers, that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer - I don't know, what do you think?

The chances that you might become a real lfe Technomancer are right up there with real life Magician.

There are several Shadowrun character concepts that are not fantastical - street ganger is one, face is another, smuggler, fixer, tech wiz. Hacker and drone operator are the least fantastic of all.

Back in the Shadowrun 1st edition days, cyberdecks seemed fantastic. Not any more! Technomancers are fantastic hackers, with the emphasis on fantasy.

The forum to argue which is more powerful is tomshardware.com.