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> Adept gunbunny build, Getting back into SR....
SpasticTeapot
post Sep 3 2008, 12:59 AM
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I'm getting back into SR after a long leave of absence, and came up with the following character.

Jules, male elf gunbunny adept.

Backstory:

Benjamin Schmidt was a model employee. After leaving the army, he became "fast-response security support" for a fourth-rate corporation. He showed up at his job daily, chased off the local hoodlums, showed through the appropriate organized crime representatives, and generally didn't do anything that might get him fired.

And then there was the crash.

In one evening, Benjamin ceased to exist. His employer went defunct, his apartment burned to the ground, his accounts burglarized, and his SIN lost in the chaos. He was left with nothing but the clothes on his back and the hold-out he left tucked into his boot.

The ensuing years have not gone well for Benjamin. With no SIN and no references, he was unable to find another job in security. He worked as a bodyguard for hire, with nothing to show for it but some interesting scars and a really expensive suit. Craving his old army stimmies, he picked up a novacoke habit. After snorting some LSD-laced dirty snow, he also got in touch with his mystical side, which, combined with his daily trips to whatever firing range he could afford, led to further enhancement of the firearms skills which formed the last remaining shred of his identity.

Hoping to try the other side of the law, he then printed out a randomized list of 1,000 names from the phonebook...and threw a dart. From then on, he would be known simply as Jules.

Stats:

BOD:4
AGI:6
REA:4
STR:4
CHA:4
INT:4
LOG:3
WIL:2

Edge: 1
Magic: 5

Edges/flaws:
High Pain Tolerance 1
Ambidextrous
Adept

Skills:
Athletics group 3
Unarmed combat 2
Pistols 5 (semi-automatics 7)
Longarms 3
Automatics 3
dodge 1
Perception 2
Intimidation 1 (physical intimidation 3)
Etiquette 2 (corp. etiquette 4)
Armorer 1 (Firearms 3)

Knowlege skills:
Security companies 2
Corp. security tactics 4
Street drugs 2 (Novacoke 4)
Yakuza 1
Security systems 3
Military 2 (Army 4)

Languages:
English: native
Japanese 4
Korean 2

Powers:
Improved reflexes 2
Improved ability: pistols 2
Combat sense 2
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ElFenrir
post Sep 3 2008, 01:06 AM
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Looks good, actually. Great firearms, he can take care of himself in a fistfight as well; a couple social skills and Armorer to take care of his tools of the trade. One thing-since you have Athletics Group and can use that for Dodging(gymnastics dodge), you could drop down Dodge and you might want to pick up Perception.

Looks fine to me, a simple, no-nonsense type of shadowrunner.
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SpasticTeapot
post Sep 3 2008, 01:28 AM
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QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Sep 2 2008, 08:06 PM) *
Looks good, actually. Great firearms, he can take care of himself in a fistfight as well; a couple social skills and Armorer to take care of his tools of the trade. One thing-since you have Athletics Group and can use that for Dodging(gymnastics dodge), you could drop down Dodge and you might want to pick up Perception.

Looks fine to me, a simple, no-nonsense type of shadowrunner.


Hmm. I knew I was forgetting something. Character has been edited per your spec.

I'm also considering the following other modifications:
-Shunting more into Perception. He was a security guard - his job was to notice things!
-More high pain tolerance. This looks really, really useful for a combat-oriented PC.
-Thrown weapons? Should I take this skill later and just put 1 or 2 in it?

Any recommendations for equipment? I was thinking along the lines of the following:
-Two heavy pistols with Smartlinks and quickdraw holsters
-One smartlinked Streetline Special in a concealed holster (for the bonus against MAD detectors)
-One smartlinked sporting rifle with scope
-Contacts with flare compensation, Smartlink, and image link
-Armored jacket
-Cheap-O commlink
-Econobox car
-Climbing gear
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jago668
post Sep 3 2008, 04:14 AM
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Well there is the Morissey Elan out of Arsenal (if you have it), that is completely undetectable by MADs. Might look into that for the small pistol. Also I don't know if you noticed, but you won't get smartgun use if you actually try to dual wield the two heavy pistols. Nothing wrong with packing a backup, just figured I'd mention it.

Just myself, I might look into picking up a smg or assault rifle instead of the sporting rifle. Just seems a guy that worked in the military, security, and bodyguard would more likely have use for one of those than a faux sniper rifle. Just my opinion on how I was reading the guy.

Also you may want to pick up the typical long coat as well, since it increases the conceal for your weapons also. Use it for your walk around time armor so your pistol(s) don't stand out as much. You will also want to put a low-light/thermo item somewhere on your list. Just something you'll want to pick up along the way. Don't forget your armorer tool kit either.

Another thing. I'm not for sure how twinkish you want to get with this guy. However if you can squeeze the money in for the synaptic accelerators (boosters? I always forget which) at rating 2. They cost you a point of essence. Yet that still puts you 2 points up in adept powers. Letting you buy another improved ability pistols, sustenance, nimble fingers, quick draw, more combat senses, improved senses (thermo, low light, etc). All kinds of nifty stuff out there.
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Rasumichin
post Sep 3 2008, 04:17 AM
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Nice build overall, though there's a couple of recommendations.
Feel free to ignore them, it's just the average dumpshock optimization stuff (though you've missed out on a couple of typical SR4 newcomer mistakes, it's a decent gunbunny build overall).

Willpower 2 is dangerously low.
It determins your stun track and with good dodge and armor, you'll take stun damage much more often than physical.
Moreover, it makes you extremely vulnerable to mana spells and many critter powers.
If you leave it at 2, be sure your team's mage packs decent counterspelling and covers you all the time.
Otherwise, a single stunbolt will drop you, a barghest will make you shit your pants- and let's not even begin to speak of control manipulations.
Willpower also determines your resistance against most social skills- your character will be easy to intimidate, order around and get bad deals.

Edge is incredibly useful.
You're missing out on a very important ressource if you leave it at minimum.
I'd strongly advise changing that.
If you don't, at least take the Unlucky flaw (believe me, with Edge 1, your character is unlucky).
Getting 20 points for only using Edge to escape certain death may be worse than having a high Edge pool, but it's better than getting nothing for being stuck with Edge 1.

A word on Ambidexterity : splitting your dicepool will lead to actually doing less damage than before, unless you go up against extremely weak canon fodder.
If the enemy can dodge decently, it may very well come down to firing 4 times and not hitting at all.

This doesn't mean Ambidexterity is completely useless, but its use is limited to "two guns at least means double the ammunition".
You could also fire two shots with an unmodified Ruger Super Warhawk (the most stylish weapon in the game anyway- and it has a nice punch as well).
Or, if you have Arsenal, you could pick up two Savalette Guardians and fire one burst with each.
In both cases, you could make use of your smartlink, which would not be possible if you fire two weapons at the same time.
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sunnyside
post Sep 3 2008, 06:20 AM
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Edge 1 is just begging for punishment. Spend that point and prepare to be violated by a parade of glitches.

How to get the points for it? Glad you asked. Get some flaws. Don't like the flaws in the book? Talk to your GM. If you made up a bunch of flaws on your own they might think you were trying to powergame.

But if you just come to them? If they're anything remotely like me you'll get a mischevious smile.

I'd probably have some fun with the "gunbunny" comment and make the character a furry on the side. Perhaps modeling it on the addiction flaw and applying it twice (once for dressing up and once for needing to hook up with other furries).

Probably a little distinctive style there too.

Anyway after getting the flaw points drop all the specializations. Yes they're a great way to add 2 dice. But they're very BP inefficiant compared to their karma cost! Just buy them after your first couple sessions.

Also ditch dodge and just use gymnastics instead. There are select instances where you might rather use dodge but you already have gymnastics at a higher skill level.

So all that together should net you ~47 points. Spend 20-40 on edge and I'd say raise pistols to 6
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Cain
post Sep 3 2008, 08:32 AM
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Drop a point of strength to raise Edge. Strength really doesn't matter except in melee combat, and since it's half your strength value, rounded up, it won't make any difference there.
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sunnyside
post Sep 3 2008, 09:29 AM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 3 2008, 03:32 AM) *
Drop a point of strength to raise Edge. Strength really doesn't matter except in melee combat, and since it's half your strength value, rounded up, it won't make any difference there.


Strength isn't such a big deal in SR4. But it does show up for more than just punches. Notably

-knocking something out of someones hand. (Something that should be attempted more often
-subdual combat(grappling).

And then there are encumberance rules(130 and 500 in the BBB). These usually only come up in day to day play if the char is strength 1.

But mostly it becomes a major issue when you want to rescue the girl, and you can't pick her up. Or you can't pull yourself up onto a ledge.

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ElFenrir
post Sep 3 2008, 10:39 AM
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This is why I don't always do the ''Odd-Strength'' twink. Don't get me wrong, many times I DO aim for odd-number strength, but if I'm playing, for example, and Ork, I'll take the 6 instead of the 5 sometimes natural. Sometimes you just, you know, see your character as decently strong. Now, if I'm *desperately* scraping for points in a sense I forgot an important skill or need a character-centric skill, and I happened to have even number Strength, then I might nab the points to get something else. Otherwise, I put the number that fits.

Hmm...if you switch Logic and Willpower it will be 2/3 instead, which could work. (again, depends how you see the character.) A few flaws and removal of Dodge will give you enough points for at least 1 Edge...maybe even 2. Of course, there is that awesome Firefight martial art that would fit this guy really well....
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jago668
post Sep 3 2008, 02:17 PM
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Dunno, myself I usually either go 6 or 1 for edge. If I don't max it I don't even bother.
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SpasticTeapot
post Sep 3 2008, 10:58 PM
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QUOTE (jago668 @ Sep 2 2008, 11:14 PM) *
Well there is the Morissey Elan out of Arsenal (if you have it), that is completely undetectable by MADs. Might look into that for the small pistol. Also I don't know if you noticed, but you won't get smartgun use if you actually try to dual wield the two heavy pistols. Nothing wrong with packing a backup, just figured I'd mention it.


D'oh!

Yeah...ambidex is likely a waste of five good build points. I may as well just get an extended clip.

QUOTE (sunnyside @ Sep 3 2008, 04:29 AM) *
Strength isn't such a big deal in SR4. Bu


Aren't Athletics rolls strength-dependent?
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Rasumichin
post Sep 3 2008, 11:45 PM
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QUOTE (SpasticTeapot @ Sep 3 2008, 10:58 PM) *
Aren't Athletics rolls strength-dependent?


Most of them.
Climbing, running, swimming.
That's it.

Of course, for a pistol-based built, getting close to the opposition is important, so decent running DP may be very helpful, as well as good stealth (i also really like the concept of closing up pre-combat by fasttalking the opposition).
For the former, there's two metagenic qualities in Runner's Companion, Celerity and Satyr Legs, though i'm not sure wether you want to take the gunbunny coment upthread serious.
Especially Satyr Legs really rocks, as it also increases kicking power and Gymnastics, including gymnastic dodge.
If you don't mind being a furry.

To give less radical suggestions, if you have Arsenal, you really want the improved range finder modification and if that isn't enough, the barrel extension.
Pistols have a terribly short range, these mods bring them up to a reach that will be sufficient in many situations.
Burst fire mods are also worth considering, they can greatly expand either damage output or dodge pool reduction.
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WeaverMount
post Sep 4 2008, 12:25 AM
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The other thing you can do with two guns besides get more ammo and split your DP into nothingness is get off two long burst per IP. That is actually +3DV per IP, at no penalty is absolutely worth 5bp.
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Cain
post Sep 4 2008, 12:49 AM
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QUOTE (sunnyside @ Sep 3 2008, 01:29 AM) *
Strength isn't such a big deal in SR4. But it does show up for more than just punches. Notably

-knocking something out of someones hand. (Something that should be attempted more often
-subdual combat(grappling).

And then there are encumberance rules(130 and 500 in the BBB). These usually only come up in day to day play if the char is strength 1.

But mostly it becomes a major issue when you want to rescue the girl, and you can't pick her up. Or you can't pull yourself up onto a ledge.

Even then, a strength of 3 should be sufficient. That's average for humans, so with his skill, he should do OK against other humans. Given this character's build, he definitely should not try to enter subduing combat with an angry troll.
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SpasticTeapot
post Sep 5 2008, 12:35 AM
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I do genuinely like the idea of making my character a furry. Not only will it make roleplaying a hoot, but I am almost guaranteed to get quite a few build points in return for taking it as a flaw. I've only got the PHB at the moment, though, so a lot of the trickery listed above won't work so well for me. (Although I'd really, really like that Morissey Elan....)

There's also the age-old issue of "Skills vs. Attributes". Were I to take one point of Adept-boosted agility over two points worth of pistols skill, I'd lose one from my pistols pool...and gain one for automatics, rifles, and all the other fun Agility-linked skills. On the other hand, pistols only become efficient once you've boosted the dice pools into the upper stratosphere - 14 dice just isn't that many. Thoughts?

NOTE: The specializations are quite important. Semi-automatic pistols are generally the only ones worth using (imagine having to reload a revolver after every combat round!), having Armorer dice for anything BUT fixing pistols is pointless, and physical intimidation just makes sense for someone who won't pick up his newspaper without a firearm full of APDS.

Finally, I'm stuck on cybernetics vs. magic for reaction boosting. While one point of cyber could replace three worth of magical goodies (and even fit into the character concept - he's ex-military and only recently discovered his magical ability!), I'm very tempted to later snag that 4th initiative pass. I'm also very keen on keeping this character "low-profile" - there's no point in having 1337 pistol skills if you can't get let in anywhere because you're a twitchy, psychotic mess that shows up on security scanners like a Christmas tree.

QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 3 2008, 07:49 PM) *
Even then, a strength of 3 should be sufficient. That's average for humans, so with his skill, he should do OK against other humans. Given this character's build, he definitely should not try to enter subduing combat with an angry troll.


Athletics skills are very useful, especially when combined with the stealth skills he'll be spending karma on for the forseeable future. (Pistols generally work very well when silenced.)

Of course, there is the issue of his pathetic willpower score...which really won't allow him to function in any social capacity. I suppose he'll get along okay with a strength of 3.
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jago668
post Sep 5 2008, 01:37 AM
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On the Morissey Elan, if you want to play with it until you get the book. Just use the Streetline Special, but entirely out of cermaic/plasteel instead of just a -2 modifier, semi-auto, and about 5 times as expensive. On your comment about cybernetics vs magic. If you use bioware isntead of cyber which is the better option, since the cyber costs you as much essence as the adept does power points. Also it won't show up on your normal scanners. It says in the Augmentation book that it takes detailed medical scanners to detect them, or having someon get x-rays of specific glans that were changed, and a few show up in fecal/urine tests. So it isn't like security just waves a scanner at you and can see it like cyber.
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Rasumichin
post Sep 5 2008, 03:34 AM
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On furries : you should really pick up Runner's Companion, then.
It contains tons of fun options for that case.
SURGE III is a great way to load up on qualities.


On the detectability of bioware : cyberware scanners have real trouble finding it (4 successes, iirc), besides deltaware, it is the next most inconspicious thing to an adept with the masking metamagic (or technomancers, who aré even harder to spot).
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sunnyside
post Sep 5 2008, 03:47 AM
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On specialties. They are very usefull. But they are also very Karma cheap compared to the BP they cost. Therefore I advise picking them up in the first session or two instead of buying them at creation.

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Platinum Dragon
post Sep 5 2008, 04:37 AM
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QUOTE (SpasticTeapot @ Sep 5 2008, 10:35 AM) *
Finally, I'm stuck on cybernetics vs. magic for reaction boosting. While one point of cyber could replace three worth of magical goodies (and even fit into the character concept - he's ex-military and only recently discovered his magical ability!), I'm very tempted to later snag that 4th initiative pass. I'm also very keen on keeping this character "low-profile" - there's no point in having 1337 pistol skills if you can't get let in anywhere because you're a twitchy, psychotic mess that shows up on security scanners like a Christmas tree.


If you can swing the 180K:nuyen: on chargen, Synaptic Booster rating 2 costs only 1 essence, freeing up 2 points of magic for other adept powers. Wired Reflexes isn't worth it for an adept though, since it costs the same essence as the adept power costs in magic.

It's costly though, since you need to spend 40+ BP on cash.
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SpasticTeapot
post Sep 5 2008, 06:51 AM
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QUOTE (Platinum Dragon @ Sep 4 2008, 11:37 PM) *
If you can swing the 180K:nuyen: on chargen, Synaptic Booster rating 2 costs only 1 essence, freeing up 2 points of magic for other adept powers. Wired Reflexes isn't worth it for an adept though, since it costs the same essence as the adept power costs in magic.

It's costly though, since you need to spend 40+ BP on cash.


That's a lot of BP.

I was actually thinking of Improved Reflexes III. Totally invisible...until you don't need it to be.

Taking specializations later does seem like a good idea - I can use all the BP I can get!
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SpasticTeapot
post Sep 8 2008, 03:52 AM
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I've been reading Arsenal, and noticed a few really nifty items:

-Morrissey Elan. Very small, has a decent clip size, completely metal-free, and semiautomatic. I wonder if I can get a nonmetallic silencer?

-HK Urban Fighter. No metal at all...and designed for use with sealed clips! So long as you use Hi-C ammo and nobody looks too closely, you can take these anywhere.

-Weapons World Infiltrator. Can be disassembled into itty-bitty pieces and reassembled when convenient. The only problem is hiding the clips.

-Ares Desert Strike. All of the insane damage in a durable, no-muss no-fuss package! Negates 7 points of ballistic armor when used with APDS ammo!

-Ares Light Fire 70. Combined with a silencer and subsonic rounds, it has a -7 penalty to perception checks to hear it - and it's cheap, too!

And, my #1 favorite:

The Ruger Thunderbolt. Basically a submachine gun with internal recoil compensation which may be fired with the pistols skill. And Lone Star buys them by the truckload - getting parts, mods, and ammo is a snap! Furthermore, combined with an underbarrel weight, the recoil can be completely negated on both bursts, each doing a whopping 7P damage Score! The only problem is the dinky clip - even extended, it's only 15 rounds, but apparently a non-cybernetic Smartlink system allows for automatic clip ejection.

Were it not listed in Arsenal as the "#1 official favorite weapon of the game's biggest security force" complete with all munch-y specs, I wouldn't believe it.


Any other recommendations?

EDIT: I HAZ PORTRAIT!

SpasticTeapot's Jules
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Squinky
post Sep 8 2008, 04:57 AM
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Hey dude,

One thing to consider is the optional rule for geasa that allows a 25% reduction in adept power costs kinda like in SR3. Further info is on Pg. 27 and 31 street magic. It is optional, but it can sure help on those big purchases like Improved Reflexes.

The other thing is that for .25 power points you can get attribute boost level 1. With your Magic of 5 and rating 1 of this skill you can spend a free action to get an average +2 to your agility, and only have to resist 1 stun when it is over.

I really like this one for gunbunnys, not just because it is good mechanically, but I picture it as the character taking that free action to "become one with the gun".

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jago668
post Sep 8 2008, 06:22 AM
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QUOTE (SpasticTeapot @ Sep 7 2008, 10:52 PM) *
I've been reading Arsenal, and noticed a few really nifty items:

-Morrissey Elan. Very small, has a decent clip size, completely metal-free, and semiautomatic. I wonder if I can get a nonmetallic silencer?


Look in the weapon modification section. Under the cermaic/plasteel component mod it says how much getting other options costs when the weapon is cermaic/plasteel. I don't see any reason why you couldn't use the same multiplier on an accessory silencer instead of a mod silencer.
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Rasumichin
post Sep 8 2008, 01:17 PM
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QUOTE (SpasticTeapot @ Sep 8 2008, 03:52 AM) *
The Ruger Thunderbolt. Basically a submachine gun with internal recoil compensation which may be fired with the pistols skill. And Lone Star buys them by the truckload - getting parts, mods, and ammo is a snap! Furthermore, combined with an underbarrel weight, the recoil can be completely negated on both bursts, each doing a whopping 7P damage Score! The only problem is the dinky clip - even extended, it's only 15 rounds, but apparently a non-cybernetic Smartlink system allows for automatic clip ejection.


Try the additional clip mod.
Doubles your ammo for 2 slots.
Combining it with extended clips, you get 30 rounds and even get to pack 2 different kinds of ammo if you want to.
Also, underbarrel weights only work in full auto.
I'd go with electronic firing and probably high STR instead.
I'd also recommend the improved range finder and probably a longer barrel, as pistols have terribly short reach.
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ElFenrir
post Sep 8 2008, 02:20 PM
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Yeah, I think if you manage to tweak a 5 Strength out, you get the +1 Recoil...if I remember correctly. I don't have the book in front of me.

But between that and other recoil mods, you should be able to fire it quite well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

What I would do with his stats...

It's a bit twinky, but Elves DO start with a natural 3 charisma. You could shift 1 from there to his Strength, for a 5, and get your Recoil.

You could also drop Logic to 2(though he DOES have his armorer skill linked to it)-a 2 is sort of considered these days as the ''Joe Average Stat'' rather than a 3. You could up his Willpower to 3 with that.
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