Karma Based Character Creation, Some math Options

[Falconer]

Lets break that down. In order to build a char under karma, which you can't build under BP, you need to find things which cost more than 1.75 karma per BP. (1:1 meaning roughly 1:1 within an engineers 10% ballparking)

And I want to put this up front so it's not lost... I understand where you're going... I think you're trying to state a troll can possibly be built under BP which can't be built w/ karma. The catch is the same things which benefits the human (cheap low stat raises, cheap skill buys) also benefit the troll in saving karma! (equipment and advantages are a wash for both, 6karma to raise a stat from 1->2 offsets 30 karma for 9->10 averaging a mere 18karma for 2 stat raises! and there's more low stat raises than high ones). IF (and I mean IF) a troll had to pay for every stat upgrade from 2->10, he'd average 18 karma per attribute point (6+30/2, 9+27/2... all the way for 18 for 6 in the middle).

Troll (mystic adept): 40BP, 80BP (bod9, str9, all else 1), 35BP advantages, 60BP equipment, 5BP binding costs (1BP per force, max force of 5x magic rating at chargen, log limits active not total bound!). At this point we're up to 180BP of things which clearly match/exceed 1:2 ratio. At this point if we wanted to be a complete cheese, we get the rest in contacts!. Nothing listed is less than 1:2 ratio EXCEPT RACIAL PICK (so we need at least 160BP worth of 1:2 picks to offset that to 1:1.75 starting ratio). Said char cannot be built under karmagen. (said char is also silly and pointless)

More advanced, limiting to 20BP worth of contacts: Race 40BP is free karma! (or another way 80karma worth of freebie stat raises)
Attribs: 80:180, Qual: 35:70, Equip: 60:120, Cont: 20:40, Knowlege: 0BP:30karma freebie rank6 knowledge/language Binding: 5BP/16+10+4 (or 40 if we just get 3 different power foci). Anyhow: 240BP:470karma. 160BP:280 karma to go.... this is not doable as ratio clearly shows you're right back at 1:1.75 marginal karma cost to beat, and this is AFTER expending all our 'karma sinks'.

Things which clearly exceed this ratio and accomplish the goal
Advantages: 1:2... so load up on max 35BP of advantages and no disadvantages.
Contacts: 1:2 again (contacts are unlimited)
Equipment: 1:2... so again load up on max 50BP of gear. (60BP if we spend 10BP on born rich)
Power Focus (2): 12BP == 36 karma (a winner! 1:3)
Power Focus (3): 23BP == 64 karma (again, 1:2.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
Spell Focus (5): 25BP == 60 karma (a respectable 1:2.4)
Spell Focus (3): 12BP == 30 karma (1:2.5)

Things which can't help us meet the goal:
Skills: Skills start at 1:1 and approach 1:1.6 or so for a rating 4 skillgroup(40BP:65karma)... well under the ratio
Specializations: 1:1 no good
Attributes up to 6: start at 10:6 and goes to 10:18... doesn't help us meet goal
Umm... nothing left!


I know what you're trying to get at though... for higher attribute ranks on the broken case (trolls, trolls tend to break so much in this system). Marginal attribute costs get higher than this breakeven ratio.
Here's the problem.
Attribute Rank2: 10BP == 6karma (1: 0.6) <-- trolls, orcs, etc. also benefit in dump stats
Attribute Rank3: 10BP == 9karma (1:1) <-- again
Attribute Rank4: 10BP == 12karma (1:1) <-- again (and under karma no hardcap penalty)
Attribute Rank5: 10BP == 15karma (1:1.5) <-- again (we're still under 1:1.75)
Attribute Rank6: 10BP == 18 karma (1:1.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) (breakeven roughly)
Attribute Rank7: 10BP == 21 karma (1:2.1) (rank7 + Rank5 is still breakeven though)
Attribute Rank8: 10BP == 24 karma (1:2.4) (again rank8 + rank4 is breakeven)
Attribute Rank9: 10BP == 27 karma (1:2.7) (and again, rank9 + rank3 is breakeven)
Attribute Rank10: 25BP == 30 karma (1:1.2) a steal well under the ratio (Rank10 + rank2 == no contest)

Troll: 5->9 == 40BP == 90 karma (1:2.25)
Troll: 6->10 == 65BP == 120 karma (1:1.9) <-- hardcapping actually costs more and comes very close to that magical 1:1.75 ratio
Orc: 4->8 == 40BP == 78 karma (1:2)
Orc 4->9 == 65BP == 105 karma (1:1.6) <-- again hardcap is actually worth LESS than the 1.75 ratio

However, this is where it gets wiggy, if you look ONLY at the extreme stats, yeah... the trolls seem like a joke.

But lets look at our typical troll adept w/ softmaxed (established above this is most expensive karma ratio)

Expensive: Bod9, Str9, (180karma==90BP, 1:2.25)
Cheap: Agi4, Rea5, Cha3, Log4, Int4 (138karma==150BP, 1:0.92), NB: we're up to 240BP worth of attributes here allowed under karmagen, 180+138==318karma, but trolls have a limit of 375+80 for no good reason!)
Absolute steal!: Wil6 suck it mages, (60karma/65BP, again 1:0.9! no hardmax penalty for mage defense), NB: we're up to 300BP:378karma worth of attributes disalllowed under BP generation and still haven't exceeded the 445 karma limit on troll attribs.
Just for lucks sake... edg5 for 42karma more!
With 25 karma leftover, we still have enough for a Mag3... Mag5 easily doable for the troll adept w/ some smart attrib moves.

We've now under karma spent well under the 445 karma allowed a troll on physical/mental attributes, AND HAVE PROCEEDED TO SOFTMAX EVERY SINGLE STAT DESPITE THE *COST PENALTY* we even hardmaxed Wil to defend against mages. 375 in fact was almost enough to softmax everything including edg, not including mag! Just to point this out 375 isn't enough to softmax 9 5's on a human (including edg), let alone hardmax one stat in there! (despite the supposed advantage humans have on this front! w/ their cheap attributes), even less points to go around if you're a mage, as under karma special attributes like edg/mag are included in attribute cap, unlike BP. (in fairness... 310BP worth of attrib raises not including edge, far in excess of 200 allowed under BP as well).

After all this... can you still say that we don't have a leg to stand on w/ some of these criticisms Totori?!

[ludomastro]

This thread is proof that if you ask 10 people for their opinion you will get 11 answers.

[Abschalten]

I know all the numbers and math. I've done it myself and seen the arguments. I've used BPgen extensively, and done a few characters up in karmagen. I've come to the conclusion: I just don't care. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Karmagen, in my opinion, makes more well-rounded characters. The only way they are really better than 400 BPs is some slightly higher-than-average attributes and more skills. I've started my new SR4 PnP campaign on karmagen, and overall I like their character builds much more now. None of them went apeshit and tried to twink out or min/max like I've seen commonly done in 400 BP builds. So it gets my stamp of approval.

If I had to "balance" it in some way (and this is in no way playtested or even fully thought out, so I'm just throwing it out there) I'd make people pay karma for the attributes before racial mods and make them pay the metatype cost in double karma (trolls would be 80 karma). But really, like I said, I haven't seen a problem, so that little fix isn't even needed.

[TheOOB]

I know all the numbers and math. I've done it myself and seen the arguments. I've used BPgen extensively, and done a few characters up in karmagen. I've come to the conclusion: I just don't care. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Karmagen, in my opinion, makes more well-rounded characters. The only way they are really better than 400 BPs is some slightly higher-than-average attributes and more skills. I've started my new SR4 PnP campaign on karmagen, and overall I like their character builds much more now. None of them went apeshit and tried to twink out or min/max like I've seen commonly done in 400 BP builds. So it gets my stamp of approval.

Thats more or less how I feel about it. The BP system strongly encourages players to super specialize there characters, you see a lot of 5(or racial max-1) on attributes, and a lot of ones, and a lot of skills either at 4 or not existing. Most the build I see with it arn't characters that I find fun to be with, the karma system just lets people be more diversified with their characters which in turn creates characters that are funner.

That said, you still gain benefits for playing the metatypes (most notably ork and troll, but elves and dwarves are better then humans 9 out of 10 times if there is no cost.) and like all other things you should need to pay for the benefits with karma.

As I said above, the simplest way to do this is to just make the metatypes cost their BP cost in karma (lower the elves to 25 or even better 20) this will give each of the metatypes a small, but meaningful cost. The numbers are small enough where the metatypes(including humans) all still have a net karma increase for their attributes(in fact at humans are at +6, dwarves are at +7, and elves at 20 karma are at +1 which is all pretty close. Orcs and Trolls are much higher, but have lower racial maximums, racism issues, and their stats benefit a few build way more then others) and the numbers are small enough where you can pick whichever metatype you want without making you feel like your choaking your starting karma. The prices however are large enough where playing a human gives you enough extra resources to give them a boost and make them closer to equal. The other metatypes will have higher max attributes then a human(save edge), but humans will have a few more karma for skills, qualities, resources, and the like.

This system also works well when allowing metavarients and other character types(shapeshifters, infected, ect) it grants them a cost so you don't take the decision to be one lightly, but the cost is light enough so that you still have wiggle room in making the character even when playing an expensive archtype(free spirits I'm looking at you).

[ElFenrir]

This thread is proof that if you ask 10 people for their opinion you will get 11 answers.

I know all the numbers and math. I've done it myself and seen the arguments. I've used BPgen extensively, and done a few characters up in karmagen. I've come to the conclusion: I just don't care. smile.gif Karmagen, in my opinion, makes more well-rounded characters. The only way they are really better than 400 BPs is some slightly higher-than-average attributes and more skills. I've started my new SR4 PnP campaign on karmagen, and overall I like their character builds much more now. None of them went apeshit and tried to twink out or min/max like I've seen commonly done in 400 BP builds. So it gets my stamp of approval.

/agree. Totally agree. I love the idea of more well-balanced characters. Yes, on average they are more ''powerful'', in the sense of having more solid attributes across the board, but again...more well-rounded. I'll take an average DP increase of 1-2 across the board if it means the characters look more like characters anyday.

And yes, it is possible to twink a 400 BP character to be around 700+ Karma, depending on what you do. Again, they won't be the most balanced or well-rounded at all, but you can, indeed, do it. Assuming your table allows anything, you could make a pretty horrific twinked face; through maxing money, contacts, Charisma, getting more Charisma twinking qualities, making them an Adept Pornomancer, whatever. Again, are they balanced? No, but the answer to the question of ''is it possible to transform 400 BPs into 750 Karma'', the answer is ''yes''. But, I sort of abide by the ''the two systems shouldn't be mixed.''

[Mäx]

/agree. Totally agree. I love the idea of more well-balanced characters. Yes, on average they are more ''powerful'', in the sense of having more solid attributes across the board, but again...more well-rounded. I'll take an average DP increase of 1-2 across the board if it means the characters look more like characters anyday.

QFT

[toturi]

After all this... can you still say that we don't have a leg to stand on w/ some of these criticisms Totori?!

I never said you do not have a leg to stand on. All I said was whether you could make a BP build that is much more expensive to build than in karma, without limitations other than RAW.

And the troll is not the most expensive karma ratio I know of. It is one I came up with during breakfast. Enjoy.

Human (because there is no racial karma saving for human) 0 karma
Nosferatu (150 BP not within 35 BP limitation) 300 karma
Softmax Intuition and Logic (softmax to 7 each, for 9 free Knowledge Skills at 4 and 1 free Knowledge Skill at 6, 80 BP) 253 karma
35 BP Positive Qualities 70 karma
50 BP Resources 100 karma

Total BP spent - 315, 85BP left
Total karma spent - 723, 27 karma left

Karma to BP ratio - 2.295

And you mis-spelt my name.

[Falconer]

Well nicely done Toturi. (sp! :)), Hats off to you on that one.

I really like how you did the mental stat finesse to get the freebie skills as karma sinks. Only nitpick is you undercosted the knowledge skills karma it looks like.
80BP, 122karma (4->7 x2). 22x9=198karma (9x rank4), 44x1 (Rank6)
366karma (366-253==113, 113-27==86)

So your final tally is +85BP, -86 karma in the hole.

That only makes your example more impressive.

[toturi]

Well nicely done Toturi. (sp! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ), Hats off to you on that one.

I really like how you did the mental stat finesse to get the freebie skills as karma sinks. Only nitpick is you undercosted the knowledge skills karma it looks like.
80BP, 122karma (4->7 x2). 22x9=198karma (9x rank4), 44x1 (Rank6)
366karma (366-253==113, 113-27==86)

So your final tally is +85BP, -86 karma in the hole.

That only makes your example more impressive.

I don't think so. Knowledge Skills are 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Not 4, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 as Active Skills are.

My numbers are correct.

Further, bond a Reach 2 Weapon focus for 2 BPs, since you already factored in the Positive Qualities(5 for Adept) and the money. 2BP for 10 karma. Buy Contacts with the rest of the BPs.

[Falconer]

That's what I get for posting before double checking my book.... I had the BP and karma costs confused.
For some reason I was thinking it was 1 point to specialize a knowledge, 2 to advance it... mea culpa.

Looking at the chart on p264, I just realized something. I always thought it was 1 karma to specialize a knowledge after chargen... but all specs are 2 karma. In chargen, it's 1BP for a knowledge spec and 2BP for an active spec.

[Cain]

After examining karmagen, I have to offer this: it's new, and different, but that doesn't mean it's not easily broken. I've seen karmagen systems get broken in the past; it just depended on the time involved. I suspect that before too long, people here will be posting pornomancers for karmagen; it's just a matter of time.

To quote Mr. Scott: "The more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."

[Ol' Scratch]

Soft-maxed Charisma and Social Skills plus the Empathy program is enough to make a "pornomancer." That's more a problem with Social Skills and the insane number of options you have to improve them in SR4 more than one with any of the character creation methods.

Your point remains, though. In the end, it's up to the GM to reign in that sort of thing. By and large, the Karma system encourages well-rounded and believable characters whereas the standard BP system encourages more crippled (comparatively) and over-specialized yet unremarkable characters. Can you create the opposite in each system? Sure can. But that doesn't change the basis of what each encourages.

[Cain]

Your point remains, though. In the end, it's up to the GM to reign in that sort of thing. By and large, the Karma system encourages well-rounded and believable characters whereas the standard BP system encourages more crippled (comparatively) and over-specialized yet unremarkable characters. Can you create the opposite in each system? Sure can. But that doesn't change the basis of what each encourages.

"Believable" is up to the player, not the stats. I think you'll agree, here-- I've witnesses good players that the most unremarkable set of stats, and put out a wonderful character. I've also seen the opposite.

"Well rounded" is also somewhat subjective. What do you mean by that? For example, in my mind, it means you've got basic abilities in several areas necessary to function in the 6th world as a shadowrunner. You need at least some stealth, some social skills, combat ability, basic technical skills, and a good perception ability, at the bare minimum. I prefer the term "balanced", which indicates that a character can be uneven, so long as the overall picture works out.

Now, while my experience with karmagen is limited (as it should be, considering the book has been out less than a month in my town) my experiments and my readings indicate that you can create even stronger monsters than before, especially at 750 karma. So, I'll put this to Dumpshock as a whole: is it really that much better than BP at creating balanced characters? Worth the added complexity and math? And if there's a better balance point, in terms of total karma, what is it?

[Ol' Scratch]

Oh I agree with your first point. By believable I was referring more to the well-rounded aspect; there's just a certain number of skills in SR4 that every runner should have that are above the norm (0). Infiltration and Shadowing, Etiquette and Negotiation, Dodge, Perception, First Aid, nearly the entire Athletics group, at least two different Combat Skills (one melee-related, one ranged-related), their professional skills, a large array of Knowledge Skills, and so on and so forth. All of which should be in the 3-4 range just becuase of how often and how important they would be to a professional runner. And the Karma system allows for that a lot more readily than the BP system does.

I know that the BP system was designed around the idea that characters should be more "street-level" which is little more than a nicer term for "low-powered noobs to the shadows," but... I dunno. It just falls flat in that regard and I often get frustrated when I have to build a character with the BP system. Especially since I'm a huge fan of Knowledge Skills; they can even be the great equalizer if you are forced to have a more lop-sided character build, either through concept or limitations in the creation method. But even in the BP system, you have to struggle to have a decent number of Knowledge Skills. Which sucks for me.

So... yeah. I greatly prefer the Karma System. Even with a lower amount of Karma the characters I've made under it have been more satisfactory than what I've created in the BP system. And I'm someone who actually prefers playing Human characters (and no, not because of Edge which I also hate), which has pretty much no advantage to speak of in the Karma system.

The alternate BP system Frank Trollman created (I've tried finding a link to it but it seems to have been lost in the migration to the new forums) was a pretty nice comprimise between the two, too. The Karma system ends up doing much of the same thing that system did, however, without keeping to some of the more unfair advantages in the BP system (which greatly rewards and encourages higher stats over lower stats).

[Glyph]

Personally, I don't think it's how the Karma-gen system is set up that encourages "well-rounded" characters - it's the fact that you can usually get a lot more with it. If you can soft-max your way to an optimal point in your specialty, then yeah, you'll branch out a bit, to either shore up your weaknesses, or to add other things you're good at.

400 Point characters are min-maxed because usually, you have just enough points to be good in your specialty. If you have 500 Points, though, then you will be just as likely to be "well-rounded" as the Karma-gen build. That's assuming the normal caps are left relatively intact, though. If you raise things like Availability or maximum resources, then people will soft-max to the new (higher) optimal point before branching out.

[toturi]

Actually if you think about it, karma doesn't favor either low or high stats. Because if you went the karma efficient(better numbers overall) way during chargen, your character development does not have the kind of acceleration if you went less karma efficient. It is more flexible in a manner of speaking because if you know that you have a party of specialists, then you could specialise while if it is a party of few people, then you can spread out to cover more bases.

[ElFenrir]

IMO, sure, the 750 Karma lets folks have higher things, which means it lets them branch out...but it's not a bad thing. I mean, I look at attributes. I see so many builds where people are dumping 1's into their Strength or Charisma because they, god forbid, wanted a couple of 5's, or...gasp...wanted to max ONE stat! IMO, if a person wants to max a stat, they are not automatically making Broken McBroke, munchkin runner. Good stats have nothing to do with how much spark is in a character-you could have crap for stats and crap for personality, and great stats and be a wonderful character. Or vice versa. It depends on the player.

And again, the attribute boosts it gives...say under the BP system, someone takes 4/4/4/4/3/3/3/3, or the even spread. Ok. That's a nice set of stats. But say they wanted higher for whatever reason. They saw their character as very physically impressive that 5's might have matched, as well as more charismatic, etc. So this turns to 5/5/5/5/4/4/4/4. As I said before...this adds, even after mods or whatnot, ONE DIE to their die pools. This is not enough to break games. At all. And...since the skill caps are still in place(1 6, other 4 or less, or 2 5s, etc), they already had their two, say, main weapon skills at 5+2-and can't gain more there. Hell, the 2 4+2's they had can't go higher, either...since the rest are capped at 4. But yes, their 1-3 skills can gain a bit...and then they can get more. So their lower skills will gain some more dice...but it's highly doubtful it's enough to wreck a game(and all characters SHOULD, IMO, make their characters under the same system.)

I usually think, for a ''typical runner'' (there are atypical runners which deviate from this, different backgrounds, etc...but this is sorta textbook), a core list looks like: A weapon skill, a social skill, Dodge or Athletics, Perception, Infiltration. That's the bare minimum core list, IMO. I then list skills as ''Core Archetype Skills'', which are, of course, core skills X archetype would have(and of course, some of the above skills are increased for some archetypes.) I, personally, usually run ''Main Skills'' in the 4-5 range(+2 If i specialize), and then the others around 1-3, and this is as many as I can, but when the skills cost between 4-14(1 to 3+2), that's only so many(especially since I just blew probably around 60 BP, at least...on my core skills...200 on base Attributes, 10-20 on Edge...etc...of course, there are Contacts and Resources.)

Then there are those flavor skills. Things like Artisan: Metalworking and Armor(Melee weapons) for your street sam, who loves to make his own blades(and has knowledge skills of old weapons, and histories, and you may even dropped a small chunk of nuyen on a weapons collection for him.) IMO, the BP sam, while he will no doubt be able to be a nice, effective sam...the Karma sam will just be better...not as much in the die pools(which, yes, he will have 1-2 higher due to better attributes and skills), he will, again, just be that much cooler as a character...and he won't have to sacrifice his ''role'' to do it.

IMO, the idea that you should sacrifice your role in a group-be less effective at it(like, dropping your core skills down to a 2-3 range instead of a 3-5 range), just because ''it lets you make character!'' is an attitude that needs to die, along with the one that says ''deficient characters have more CHARACTER!'', which sort of go hand in hand. For /&%#&'s sake, I LIKE playing someone not only kicks ass at their role, but has a nice sized pile of flavor-skills as well. This attitude might get me scorned by hardcore ''real roleplayers'',(I use the term loosely, and in quotes, to signify its THOSE type I am talking about) but ahh well, I don't think I'd like their table, anyways.

And btw, I wasn't ranting at anyone in this thread, because I know a lot of folks are sort of on this boat as well, and this site does have it's nice share of normal, sane gamers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) But that attitude does exist in gamers, and frankly I don't like it, but I mean...whatever makes someone have fun at the table is alright with me, I suppose. I don't have to be a part of every table.

So... yeah. I greatly prefer the Karma System. Even with a lower amount of Karma the characters I've made under it have been more satisfactory than what I've created in the BP system. And I'm someone who actually prefers playing Human characters (and no, not because of Edge which I also hate), which has pretty much no advantage to speak of in the Karma system.

The alternate BP system Frank Trollman created (I've tried finding a link to it but it seems to have been lost in the migration to the new forums) was a pretty nice comprimise between the two, too. The Karma system ends up doing much of the same thing that system did, however, without keeping to some of the more unfair advantages in the BP system (which greatly rewards and encourages higher stats over lower stats)

I too play a lot of humans. I make an elf now and again as well, or whatever I had in mind for the character. I've never made a metahuman with Karma just because they are ''better'' under karma. But I won't lie...I've made the 4 Body, 3 Strength Ork before, under BP, and so have friends of mine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

And yeah, Frank's houserules rocked. It was a great balance between the two...yeah, had the same BP disadvantages, but me and my buddies liked it a lot.

[Cain]

So... yeah. I greatly prefer the Karma System. Even with a lower amount of Karma the characters I've made under it have been more satisfactory than what I've created in the BP system. And I'm someone who actually prefers playing Human characters (and no, not because of Edge which I also hate), which has pretty much no advantage to speak of in the Karma system.

When it comes down to it, I've only played humans in SR4, although I've created non-humans; it's just that humans tend to come out better. However, I am curious: the karma system seems to favor metahumans, rather extensively. Do metahumans come out as relatively overpowered as I think they might be?

And again, the attribute boosts it gives...say under the BP system, someone takes 4/4/4/4/3/3/3/3, or the even spread. Ok. That's a nice set of stats. But say they wanted higher for whatever reason. They saw their character as very physically impressive that 5's might have matched, as well as more charismatic, etc. So this turns to 5/5/5/5/4/4/4/4. As I said before...this adds, even after mods or whatnot, ONE DIE to their die pools. This is not enough to break games. At all. And...since the skill caps are still in place(1 6, other 4 or less, or 2 5s, etc), they already had their two, say, main weapon skills at 5+2-and can't gain more there. Hell, the 2 4+2's they had can't go higher, either...since the rest are capped at 4. But yes, their 1-3 skills can gain a bit...and then they can get more. So their lower skills will gain some more dice...but it's highly doubtful it's enough to wreck a game(and all characters SHOULD, IMO, make their characters under the same system.)

Won't that depend, like BP's, on how much you're allowed to spend on base attributes? I mean, if I removed all caps from attribute purchases, under either system, you could do the same thing. I agree that karmagen is more granular, but that's not necessarily a good thing: the more granular your system gets, the more you encourage number-crunching, IME.

Then there are those flavor skills. Things like Artisan: Metalworking and Armor(Melee weapons) for your street sam, who loves to make his own blades(and has knowledge skills of old weapons, and histories, and you may even dropped a small chunk of nuyen on a weapons collection for him.) IMO, the BP sam, while he will no doubt be able to be a nice, effective sam...the Karma sam will just be better...not as much in the die pools(which, yes, he will have 1-2 higher due to better attributes and skills), he will, again, just be that much cooler as a character...and he won't have to sacrifice his ''role'' to do it.

You're preaching to the choir, here. However, I did notice that you don't get free Knowledge skill points under karmagen. Won't that discourage the purchase of knowledge and language skills?

[ElFenrir]

In my experience making and seeing Karma metas...no. Not at all. If anything, I notice their ''lower'' stats being boosted more than the biggies. Most folks who like the idea of their Uber Body Troll...unless they have their ''tank of all trades'' concept...I rarely see go over a 7...maybe an 8 for Body, and Strength is usually around 7-ish. A lot of folks that I have spoken to(mind you, I haven't spoken to every gamer, but ones Ive talked to about karma recently), find it rather rough to drop around 100 Karma on ONE attribute. It seems the points get funneled toward the ones which tend to suffer under BPs.

Karma is more numbers, yes...but you know, I don't have a problem with removing the attribute cap from BP. IMO, it would work better without it. If someone wants to blow all of their BPs to get a bunch of 5s and a 6(345 BPs, is it?) they should be allowed to. It's spending more in one area, less in another. Someone is allowed(technically, a GM might well veto it), to drop all 1's in attributes that can be bought up, proceed to buy them up(via, say, restricted gear), and then spend the rest of their BPs, which might be well over 200, on skills.

As for the Knowledge skills...I find the exact opposite happens. In BP, folks most of the time, if not almost all the time, spend only their allotment on knowledges. However, under Karma...I find characters much of the time have many more knowledges and languages. I too thought it might work opposite...but it doesn't, for some reason. I'm sure you'll have some folks here and there that ignore them, but you'll find players that ignore a bit of anything around, no matter what system you use.

In the end, I just cannot find anything that will unbalance a game with Karma, unless you have problem players or have a GM that will allow absolutely anything and everything in a game. Well, let me rephrase that. Our table is find with it. All tables are indeed different and some just may have some problem with Karma. I'm just in the boat that finds it exactly what we wanted for SR4.

[Ancient History]

When it comes down to it, I've only played humans in SR4, although I've created non-humans; it's just that humans tend to come out better. However, I am curious: the karma system seems to favor metahumans, rather extensively. Do metahumans come out as relatively overpowered as I think they might be?

If you go for a minimal-build - i.e. the lowest attributes you can possibly get - then yes, metahumans have the points for a few more skills and whatnot. It's generally not as bad as some of the more vocal detractors make out.

You're preaching to the choir, here. However, I did notice that you don't get free Knowledge skill points under karmagen. Won't that discourage the purchase of knowledge and language skills?

Not so much, if only because skills are relatively cheap at lower levels, and there are no restrictions on specializations.

[Falconer]

I'm just going to throw this out there. There is an awful lot I like about karma.

My only beef w/ karma is that metatype costs are outright broken. The arguments given for giving metas for free, and then giving freebie attribute points don't pan out. (higher costs for high stats are balanced by cheap costs for low stats.. so you end up averaging under 1.75 karma per BP still).

The best part of karmagen is that there is no discrepancy between char build BP and in-game karma advancement. Similarly, you wouldn't see a discrepancy if people were awarded BP's (instead of karma) in game to spend to advance their chars.

Almost all BP based build optomizing decisions are based around minimizing future karma costs while keeping the character viable and survivable early on. This results simply because two difference systems w/ two different costs are used. Since costs are difference between them.

As far as how generous karma is... 375 karma is enough to do straight 5's on a human. (all 4 phys, all 4 mental, plus 5 karma... with nothing leftover to advance magic, 8*42==336 +36==372). Which is far in excess of the 20 attribute advances allowed under BP. Such a limitation could have been done under karma as well. You can advance attributes 20 times then you're done (or 25 times). I'd posit, it's too generous as it's more advantageous to advance attributes than skills.

I also like how karma produces more balanced characters, because it eliminates that impetus under BP to max everything you can while keeping everything else at 1 rank. If the game awarded BP instead of karma, we'd see the same thing, but people would advance skills equally at all levels, rather than advance lower skills faster than higher. That's a point in karmas favor, increasing marginal costs.


Elfenrir:
I take issue with only one part of your statement... that advancing an attribute is just one more die.

It's one more die to the skill pool you're interested in. But it's also one more die to base attribute tests. It's one more die to every other skill linked to that attribute. And it's one more die when you need to default.

The important thing in a system is the marginal costs. How much does it cost to advance a given skill/skills by 1.

Attributes only cost 3x in karma
A skill GROUP cost 5x in karma
A skill costs 2x in karma. (min 4 because of first rank double)

Look at p111.
Agility: 18 skills
Body: 2 skills (damage reduction, and physical track)
Reaction: 7 skills (avoidance and initiative)
Strength: 3 skills (melee damage)
Charisma: 6 skills
Intuition: 10 skills (initiative)
Logic: 18 skills (not counting +-2 street magic, hacking skills which link program not logic)
Willpower: 2 skills (resisting spells, stun track)

It's another argument for another time, that Body and Strength would be a lot less problematic if they were one stat. (why does bod limit armor instead of str, there's so few skills linked to each... each is only worth half as much as say agi or rea. It would solve a lot of the troll/dwarf/orc problem as it would be far cheaper to advance one attribute than two)... Anyhow that genies long out of it's lamp now, and can't be put back in.

But advancing an attribute advances on average 8 individual skill pools. As well as advancing tests which involve attribute + attribute. So back on point... that's 8 pool increases for 3x new rating cost.

Advancing a skill group advances 3.5 individual pools on average, for 5x new rating (w/ a double penalty)

Advancing individual skill, one skill pool increase, for 2x new rating (w/ double penalty)

That is directly at the heart of why attribute costs are so important. And why people gripe about metas having higher.

[Cain]

Karma is more numbers, yes...but you know, I don't have a problem with removing the attribute cap from BP. IMO, it would work better without it. If someone wants to blow all of their BPs to get a bunch of 5s and a 6(345 BPs, is it?) they should be allowed to. It's spending more in one area, less in another. Someone is allowed(technically, a GM might well veto it), to drop all 1's in attributes that can be bought up, proceed to buy them up(via, say, restricted gear), and then spend the rest of their BPs, which might be well over 200, on skills.

That's where I'm wondering. It's been shown, repeatedly, that 750 karma characters > 400 BP ones, and that's leaving out deliberate metahuman cheese. I know the obvious fix here is to reduce the starting karma... but where should I put it? Would 600 do the trick? 650? Where should I draw the line, so that characters aren't more powerful than before?

If you go for a minimal-build - i.e. the lowest attributes you can possibly get - then yes, metahumans have the points for a few more skills and whatnot. It's generally not as bad as some of the more vocal detractors make out.

As Falconer pointed out, attributes can and do make a huge difference, even more than skills do. Someone here posted a troll build that had soft-maxed attributes with karma to spare, well under the cap. If we use one of the more exotic metatypes, then we could pump even more karma into attributes. So, just from what I've heard, metahumans not only get to spend more on attributes, they can raise them higher, and it costs them nothing for this privilege.

Not so much, if only because skills are relatively cheap at lower levels, and there are no restrictions on specializations.

I see where you're going with that, but I don't understand what you mean by "no restriction on specializations". Last I checked, you can only have one specialization per skill, right? That was the only limit I was aware of.

[Ol' Scratch]

If you go for a minimal-build - i.e. the lowest attributes you can possibly get - then yes, metahumans have the points for a few more skills and whatnot. It's generally not as bad as some of the more vocal detractors make out.

Or, you know, just stay within the Human range. Like, oh you know, all but two or three of the sample characters in SR4 do. Trolls, for instance, start out with the equivalence of 84 bonus Karma (not including the value of Reach, Natural Armor, or Thermographic Vision). That's more than a "few more skills" worth of Karma. And despite people like you implying if not out-right insisting that they're all going to soft-max every one of their attributes, there's no reason at all for them to do so. Especially if playing a non-physical archetype, like a Troll Street Shaman. (Who, incidently, doesn't have a single attribute over 5 in SR4).

When your idea of game balance revolves around "well, I expect them to do this and this" you've already failed. Doubly so when you completely ignore that metahumans can do things a Human can't, which is a boon not a hindrance.

[Ol' Scratch]

That's where I'm wondering. It's been shown, repeatedly, that 750 karma characters > 400 BP ones, and that's leaving out deliberate metahuman cheese. I know the obvious fix here is to reduce the starting karma... but where should I put it? Would 600 do the trick? 650? Where should I draw the line, so that characters aren't more powerful than before?

Honestly it depends. If you think the types of characters you create under the BP system are "just right" for your preferred style of game, then lowering the starting Karma to something closer to 650 works well enough. Personally, I haven't seen any reasonable Karma-built characters (ie, not concept ones used to prove a point) who were overboard. Versatile, yes, but not insane. And if you're allowing insane characters in a game, you can do the same thing with the BP system.

[Cain]

Honestly it depends. If you think the types of characters you create under the BP system are "just right" for your preferred style of game, then lowering the starting Karma to something closer to 650 works well enough. Personally, I haven't seen any reasonable Karma-built characters (ie, not concept ones used to prove a point) who were overboard. Versatile, yes, but not insane. And if you're allowing insane characters in a game, you can do the same thing with the BP system.

Honestly, I think the BP system is more than a little insane; it puts a bunch of arbitrary limits in place, but they don't actually rein in characters, they just encourage hyper-specializing. But before I start allowing karmagen in my games, I want to make sure that the characters are equivalent.

I'm thinking about starting an online game, with players who don't have every book. I'm very leery of allowing karmagen, especially if it gives those players a significant advantage, or the ability to cut into someone else's spotlight time. I don't want to reward extreme number-crunching, and I really don't want to reward those who can afford the books over those who cannot.