Karma Based Character Creation, Some math Options

[Ol' Scratch]

Well no, they don't create characters that are equivalent to each other. That's inherent to any alternative creation methods. While I haven't tried it out, I'm pretty sure the Priority system would create just as many inconsistancies between the two. So allowing characters to be made with different systems is usually a bad idea regardless of what systems are being used. At least that's been my experience.

On the plus side, typing up the basics of the Karma system isn't that hard. I did it just last night.

[Cain]

On the plus side, typing up the basics of the Karma system isn't that hard. I did it just last night.

That, I *know* I'm not allowed to do. I can't cite whole rules sections without having to worry about copyright infringement. And sending copies to them would be illegal as well. It might be safe in a home game, but sending complete pdf files would be too much, I think.

[Ol' Scratch]

That, I *know* I'm not allowed to do. I can't cite whole rules sections without having to worry about copyright infringement. And sending copies to them would be illegal as well. It might be safe in a home game, but sending complete pdf files would be too much, I think.

1. It's not a whole section.
2. It's only copyright infringement if you cut-and-paste it verbatim.
3. It's a set of rules; you can't copyright/trademark that, only the way it's presented.
4. Even if it were, this is more than covered by fair use.

Example.

[Cain]

1. It's not a whole section.
2. It's only copyright infringement if you cut-and-paste it verbatim.
3. It's a set of rules; you can't copyright/trademark that, only the way it's presented.
4. Even if it were, this is more than covered by fair use.

Example.

I'm no copyright lawyer, but again, there's a difference between summarizing something on Dumpshock and sending off pages of the pdf. While I might link to your summary, I wouldn't feel right about copying whole sections of rules onto any online forum-- that's what got SR3R kicked off of Dumpshock.

At any event, after thinking about it, I'm not going to allow karmagen for my online game. Not everyone has RC; and several are complete newbies. I can't possibly be there to go over each of their characters with them as they build it. So, I'll just stick to the basics for now. Probably for the best, really.

[Falconer]

Cain:
You could always just refer them to karma advancement page 263 SR4.

Example:
Instead of spending BP to build the character we'll be using karma. We just use the standard rules to make a character starting on page 70 with some minor changes.

You have 600 karma, no more than 300 can be spent on your physical and mental attributes (edg and mag/res bought seperate, just like normal).

The changes are.
1. If the is a cost listed in BP to do something, simply double it to determine the karma cost.
2. The cost to learn, advance, or specialize an attribute or skill is on page 263 instead of the BP cost tables on p88.
3. You gain (INT+LOG)x6 karma to spend on learning & language skills.


There, that should help you out. Nice, simple, and very straightforward, and the chars will all be roughly equivalent to 400BP chars. I do really like how karma encourages starting characters to come out with a nice balance of skills instead of being hyperspecialized like BP encourages. The important thing is everyone in the game uses the same rules to build, and that you have the power level pegged down.

[Samoth]

Instead of making a new thread I thought I'd bump an old one.

The RC rules say that the max that can be spent on attributes is equal to 1/2 total karma (plus the BP for whatever race you pick x2).

To clarify, does that mean if I make a 750 karma Elf Ghoul, the max I could spend on attributes is 505? (375 total plus 130 for metatype and infected variant) or 435 (375 plus elf Bp cost x2)?

If infected variants count, then you could spend 675 points on attributes for a Nosferatu, which seems incredibly unbalanced.

[Mäx]

If infected variants count, then you could spend 675 points on attributes for a Nosferatu, which seems incredibly unbalanced.

Considering that being a nosferatu cost 300 karma mx you could use for attributes is 520 karma and thats is only if you take max negative qualites and no positvie ones, also that means that the characters have nothing but his atributes and a bunch of negative qualites, i really dont see that being unbalanced in anyway.
But ofcource all that would be tru only if the infected qualites counted for that max and I'm 99,9% sure that isnt the case.

[Samoth]

Considering that being a nosferatu cost 300 karma mx you could use for attributes is 520 karma and thats is only if you take max negative qualites and no positvie ones, also that means that the characters have nothing but his atributes and a bunch of negative qualites, i really dont see that being unbalanced in anyway.
But ofcource all that would be tru only if the infected qualites counted for that max and I'm 99,9% sure that isnt the case.

Can I get a page reference to a karma cost for infected characters? I was under the assumption that infected was a "free" quality just like metavariants are in terms of karma cost. Obviously paying for it is totally logical, but I haven't seen it actually written.

[Mäx]

Can I get a page reference to a karma cost for infected characters? I was under the assumption that infected was a "free" quality just like metavariants are in terms of karma cost. Obviously paying for it is totally logical, but I haven't seen it actually written.

Being an infested is a special quality that doesnt count against the quality point limit, A metavariant is an other race option not a quality.
Only the race is free in karmagen, not qualities, so there no reason what so ever to assume that you would get to be an infested for free in karmagen.
And the qualities cost BP*2 in karmagen so thats where i got the 300 karma for being a nostrefatu.

[Samoth]

Being an infested is a special quality that doesnt count against the quality point limit, A metavariant is an other race option not a quality.
Only the race is free in karmagen, not qualities, so there no reason what so ever to assume that you would get to be an infested for free in karmagen.
And the qualities cost BP*2 in karmagen so thats where i got the 300 karma for being a nostrefatu.

Thank you, I guess I glossed over the fact that infected doesn't count as a race (not sure why I thought it would).

[Mäx]

Thank you, I guess I glossed over the fact that infected doesn't count as a race (not sure why I thought it would).

Clad to be of help. I think the reason why the infected are a quality is that all metahumans can become ghouls and i'm pretty sure metavariants can take the same infested qualities as their parent race.
But on the vain of your original post, an Ai character can spent 595 points on attributes in karma gen and a free spirit character could technically spent 875 points of karma in attributes, but using the RAW limit on the amount of negative qualites the max karma availebul would be 820. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)
But i still stand by my assesment that being apple to spent a ridiculous amount of points for attributes isn't in anyway OP.

[Udoshi]

I have to agree w/ the other posters... I LOVE how karmagen gets rid of the differences between advancement and chargen costs. I hate how BP really encourages extreme min/maxing topping of stats and skills so you don't pay the extra karma, then round out the character in play w/ karma.

The problem. Metatype is the elephant in the room... it's absolutely broken once you add metatypes and eliminate the price incentive to pick a human over anything. And while I agree it's a huge problem to address... the problem is metatypes aren't paying more for larger dicepools... a maxed elf and a maxed human gunbunny... the elf always has the advantage because of his higher natural agility and freebie stats and abilities. That is my only criticism of karmagen.

This. I have to agree completely. However, its worth mentioning, at our table, we use German Karmagen. As it turns out, RC's karmagen rules were meant for 4th Anniversary, and someone messed up. The only big change is this: Karmagen Metatype cost = BP cost in karma, and attributes are rating x 5, not rating times 3. And..... its actually really balanced. It prevents fuckery like playing Free Spirits for no cost, and grabbing five initiations/force 11 out the door, or an AI from hell. The only further thing to clarify is that Edge/Magic doesn't count against the attribute limit, which doesn't gimp awakened characters.

I ran some numbers, once. Going from in the 1-6 range, Rx3 attribute cost is about half-off cost compared to BP-gen. I mean. Really. Just imagine what you could do in BP-gen if all your stats were 5bp/level instead of 10, and maxing out wasn't 25. That's why we don't use RAW karmagen. With a bit of should-have-been errata and common sense, its by far my favorite chargen system.

[Mäx]

This. I have to agree completely. However, its worth mentioning, at our table, we use German Karmagen. As it turns out, RC's karmagen rules were meant for 4th Anniversary, and someone messed up. The only big change is this: Karmagen Metatype cost = BP cost in karma, and attributes are rating x 5, not rating times 3. And..... its actually really balanced. It prevents fuckery like playing Free Spirits for no cost, and grabbing five initiations/force 11 out the door, or an AI from hell. The only further thing to clarify is that Edge/Magic doesn't count against the attribute limit, which doesn't gimp awakened characters.

I ran some numbers, once. Going from in the 1-6 range, Rx3 attribute cost is about half-off cost compared to BP-gen. I mean. Really. Just imagine what you could do in BP-gen if all your stats were 5bp/level instead of 10, and maxing out wasn't 25. That's why we don't use RAW karmagen. With a bit of should-have-been errata and common sense, its by far my favorite chargen system.

Excepts, as has been pointed out in this topic allready, you can with 400BD makes character that cost more then 750 karma on the old system, to say nothing about that updated karmagen.
And thats is why i really really hope agains all odds that when that RC errata comes out, the succested karma amount for normal chargen is raised to 1000, as that will enable one to make those same rounded out character as the current one does. If they just ugrade the prices with the SR4A ones and leave it to 750 karma, thenkarma-gen takes a train to min-max land of numbers on a sheet instead of character that is the BP-gen, except BP-gen makes stronger characters.
becouse many of the karmagen builds i have are not maxed to hell and back, they cant afford to lose dises in from the main pools, so all those points needed to pay for the increaset atribute cost fill come out of the secondary and knowledge/language skills and non essential fluffy gear and qualities. So the no effetines to do the job their made to do is lost, just everythink that actually makes them living breathing characters.

[Falconer]

Udoshi... look when that post was made... it's been around for a while. Someone thread necro'ed. You'll also see in other threads I'm perfectly aware that the german RC was published with some errata such as the SR4a 5x costs included. You'll notice I started a small firestorm (accidentally) when i asked if the RC reprint in the states included the errata. So everything you wrote is prefaced on an understanding that I'm ignorant of the differences. I'm not, if anything you're either unaware of or simply not acknowledging the abuses still rampant in the system.


In any case, I still hold my opinion... karmagen as published sucks the big one and is a disgrace to character generation EVEN THE GERMAN EDITION!!! It continues all the problems of giving metas freebies while penalizing humans. (I always thought humans should get something nifty like 7 is the max rating for any human skill... to make up for their humdrum attributes. Toss in an exceptional skill and skill mods and potential for a 12 dice in skill alone then for a human.... which kinda makes up for the lesser attributes).

An orc intuition tradition mage has nothing EXCEPT benefits over a human one... even take human looking... no one will know the difference. Except the ork paid next to nothing for his increased bod and 'average' str. Stats for free is bad mojo. Even his logic doesn't suffer from the lower cap, he still pays the same reduced rates a human does.


I still hold the best way to do it is to simply charge race BP cost in karma... IE: 40karma to be a troll... now buy your stats exactly the same way as a human... AFTERWARDS apply the metatype adjustments after buying. Great you're not penalized any more than an average human for getting average troll STR. It also avoids silly stupid stuff, such as metas get bonus karma that they can spend on attributes!!! (just why is it that an orc can spend 40karma more on attributes than a human?! especially the ork intuition mage who has zero intention of raising body or strength above!). And they're still paying a little for the special stuff like improved vision, reach, natural armor, freebie package deal improved attribute caps and the like. (the balance isn't perfect.. but it's close enough, and perfection is never a good goal).

I heavily suggest you read back, as all this has been hashed out many many times before. I repeat the karmagen rules published in the german RC are still badly broken, just only slightly less than the pre-SR4a published english first printing. (jury's still out on the second printing).

[Karoline]

Max amount of karma you can get out of the BP system: 1350ish if I recall properly
Max amount of BP you can get out of the Karma system: 750

So, both can get about double out of the other system if you really want. The BP system character was more playable, but the Karma system character could be made very playable by dropping it to about 700BP.

Both of these done with the 5x karma cost and karma cost = BP cost for race.

And thats is why i really really hope agains all odds that when that RC errata comes out, the succested karma amount for normal chargen is raised to 1000, as that will enable one to make those same rounded out character as the current one does. If they just ugrade the prices with the SR4A ones and leave it to 750 karma, thenkarma-gen takes a train to min-max land of numbers on a sheet instead of character that is the BP-gen, except BP-gen makes stronger characters.

Please, 1k karma? Even with the increased 5x cost my characters generally end up better overall being made in karmagen (750) over BP (400). There are some exceptions, mostly in the form of trolls with soft maxed body and strength, but in general... Also, BP is the system that encourages min/maxing, not karmagen. BP encourages you to get everything at maximum available or not bother getting it. Karmagen encourages you to get a smattering of stuff with a few high end skills, though it still allows for higher end stuff as well.

[Falconer]

The ONLY way to get that much karma out of the BP system is to well and truly go only for max karma gaming the system.

IE: buy up logic & intuition for all the freebie knowledge skills you can get... then max out a few (each one at rating 6 is 21 karma). Intentionally buy and bond rediculously high force foci (especially power foci). Oh yeah, lets not forget soft-maxing racial stats just because you can.

I don't buy the claims that people need more than 750. Only in the most badly powergamed or numbercrunched situations. (or weird stuff like the str 10 troll since it's obviously too obvious to treat a str10 troll as just as abnormal as a str 6 human in terms of attribute cost!!). (see comment about applying attribute bonuses and negatives after buying attributes)

[Karoline]

The ONLY way to get that much karma out of the BP system is to well and truly go only for max karma gaming the system.

IE: buy up logic & intuition for all the freebie knowledge skills you can get... then max out a few (each one at rating 6 is 21 karma). Intentionally buy and bond rediculously high force foci (especially power foci). Oh yeah, lets not forget soft-maxing racial stats just because you can.

I don't buy the claims that people need more than 750. Only in the most badly powergamed or numbercrunched situations. (or weird stuff like the str 10 troll since it's obviously too obvious to treat a str10 troll as just as abnormal as a str 6 human in terms of attribute cost!!). (see comment about applying attribute bonuses and negatives after buying attributes)

Yes, it was a purposeful attempt to get as much karma out of the BP system as possible, just as the other was the same. I have the sheet on my other computer which I may actually get around to rebuilding sometime soon. But, the opposite was also true. In order to get 750 BP out of the karmagen system you basically have to keep all attributes at 2 and get every single skill in the book at 2. The point of those two characters was to show that each could be made to be 'better' than the other system all depending on what kind of character you made: min/maxing is better on BP, and well rounded characters are better on karma.

If you missed my post, I'm also on the side of leaving it at 750. There is plenty of karma there to make a good character that is easily comparable to (and often superior to) a 400BP character. The idea of needing an extra 250 karma is ridiculous.

[Cthulhudreams]

To me the ultimate test is what is the karma and BP values of the sample characters in the base book provided match the ratios provided in RC.

That is actually fair and reasonably unbaised compared to specific, stupid builds cooked up by people to make a point one way or the other.

Hint: They don't, pointing our how unreasonably more powerful 750 karma characters are than vanilla 400 BP ones.

[Karoline]

To me the ultimate test is what is the karma and BP values of the sample characters in the base book provided match the ratios provided in RC.

That is actually fair and reasonably unbaised compared to specific, stupid builds cooked up by people to make a point one way or the other.

Hint: They don't, pointing our how unreasonably more powerful 750 karma characters are than vanilla 400 BP ones.

Not really. There is constant mention of how poorly built the sample characters are. A better comparison would be to pull up some old character sheets that were made with the purpose of being played in mind, and aren't being specially made for this conversation. That would be a much better comparison. The simple truth is that for the BP system to be used to its fullest, you need to utilize at least a bit of min/maxing, and the sample characters seem to try as hard as they possibly can to be average in nearly every respect (Which is of course the strength of the karmagen characters).

In fact, I was making a technomancer just recently, purely for the sake of making a technomancer as it is something I haven't really tried before. Not finished yet, but at last count she was around 420ish BP, and just under 800 karma, which is basically the same in both systems.

Still, that said, I want to emphasize again, I'm not in favor of giving any more karma to karmagen. I like it at 750, with attributes at x5. Seems to generate quite similar power levels.

[Glyph]

Karmagen with the German rules comes closer to 400 BP, although it still usually works out to more than 400 BP if you compare them. But it is more like 400-something, rather than 600 BP or so like the old karmagen was.

I don't think humans really get screwed over that much in the German rules, except that Special Attributes being included in the 375 Karma cap makes awakened characters such as adepts much more problematic. Metahumans, after all, come out ahead in BP too.

It's simply more of a sliding scale in karmagen. They gain a bit more if they start out with the minimum in their boosted Attributes, but pay through the nose once they start raising them over the normal human range. For example, a troll has a net gain of 90 Karma over a human (40 cost and losing 10 from not having an edge bonus, vs. 140 karma from two 5's) if they take minimum Body and Strength. If they raise Body and Strength to 9, though, they have spent 300 karma, vs. 140 karma for a human to have Body and Strength of 5. In BP, by contrast, the troll stays 30 points ahead of the human all the time.

[Ancient History]

T'be fair, the German rules did include my errata.

[Udoshi]

Udoshi... look when that post was made... it's been around for a while. Someone thread necro'ed.

HAHhahahahaha oops. Sorry pal, thats really my bad.


That being said, you can break both BP-gen and Karma-gen. With proper optimization, its not hard to do exceptional things in either. The question should really be 'which makes characters better', followed by 'how do we balance it?' I, for one, put my vote with karmagen - because I hate minmaxing my characters(bp-gen) to get decent dice in my primary role on the team. I can do it, I can do it well, but that doesn't mean i have to like it - or that its the best way to get players introducted to the system.

[Falconer]

Yes, and if the troll/orc chooses NOT to raise Str and Bod (say a troll decker/mage...), that troll is effecitvely 90 karma AHEAD of any human, as he's not penalized at all for raising his mental stats outside of the caps. The exact same 'savings' that people tout for humans apply FULLY to the troll. AND he can spend 80 karma MORE on attributes than can the human (higher special attribs like magic and edge... you can still only max out one, but under karma you don't have 'soft-max/hard-max' penalty BP cost.


10BP ~= 20karma... so attributes over rating 4 cost more in karma than in BP. Under 4 and you're paying less in karma than in BP.
IE: comparing BP to karma... for every stat the troll raises above 4... he makes up with the savings from raising a mental stat from 2->3. 5->6... 1->2. Since Str & Bod are only two stats out of 6 basic ones... each one is offset by karma cost savings in 3 other attributes!!! (compared to BP). The only way this can be addressed is to charge extra to raise penalized stats, but this isn't done.

Metas for free == bad idea... just as only giving attribute bonuses and not applying penalties does similarly!

Trolls are just so extreme, they break/distort a lot in the system... bows, elves (in half), variants, and chargen.

[Mäx]

Not really. There is constant mention of how poorly built the sample characters are. A better comparison would be to pull up some old character sheets that were made with the purpose of being played in mind, and aren't being specially made for this conversation. That would be a much better comparison.

Actually thats kinda what i did, i originally build my Sasha(combat face) with BP-gen and then i remade her with karmagen, in that proces she got +1 to agility,intuition,strenght and edge aas well as +1 to her weapon and social skill and she turned in to a dryad. So thats +2 dice to weapons and +3 dice to most social skill, so not that much stronger, well i quess that being able to speak 17 languages can also help with the face job, but not much concidering lingua softs exist.
Now making the conversion to SR4A costs would requier 211 more karma(166 for atributes and 45 for race), all of those can be taken from the fluffy parts of the character sheet, but at that point i could just make it easier for myself and just go back to BP-gen.

[Karoline]

Now making the conversion to SR4A costs would requier 211 more karma(166 for atributes and 45 for race), all of those can be taken from the fluffy parts of the character sheet, but at that point i could just make it easier for myself and just go back to BP-gen.

See, now that's the hanger. I don't think anyone will argue that using SR4a costs is balanced with BP gen (though plenty will complain that you should still use them because they want to be munchkins). It is the 5x attribute cost and paying karma for race that keeps it balanced.

Yes, and if the troll/orc chooses NOT to raise Str and Bod (say a troll decker/mage...), that troll is effecitvely 90 karma AHEAD of any human, as he's not penalized at all for raising his mental stats outside of the caps

And in BP he is way ahead of a human regardless of raising Str and Bod. Only difference is that in karmagen he can get to max at no penalty instead of soft max.