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> Construction Costs?
Mithral MAge
post Sep 19 2008, 07:19 AM
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I have a player who wants to make himself Body Armor, with all enhancements in the core book other than Thermal at rating 6. He definitely has the skill, Armorer 5, but what I can't find is how much the materials will cost him. He already has a Facility (He used the Weapon Specialist written up in the book as his character template), so I could just rule he has all the parts on hand, but I know the other party members will want him to make it for them as well. So I want to know if there is an official way to price items? Right now I am just assuming half of the final cost as the cost of the parts.

IE, 10,000 nuyen retail means $5,000 cost to construct.

Now what if he wants to fabricate everything from raw materials? He does have a Facility, so I imagine he has all the machine tools, forges, and machines he would need. At least for armoring. I would imagine that would reduce his costs to as low as 10% of final retail, no higher than 30%. Is there anything in the rules, beyond the core book (or in it if I have failed to find them) about this?

Plus how should I describe the facility? Would a facility be big like Orange County Choppers newest facility? Older facility? Either would work?

I mean I have seen machine Shops that could pretty much do anything they needed, so I don't really feel clear on the difference between a shop and a facility. It seems to me it would be the machinery. I don't see a shop having everything for 5,000 nuyen, unless they were great at doing auctions. So am I correct in assuming that it is the machinery that is the difference?
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Steampunk
post Sep 19 2008, 07:36 AM
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Body Armor? Are we talking about Milspec here... I think, it would be a good way to start looking for construction plans. Doesn't have one? No problem, a dozen (skilled) helpers, a big laboratory and aproximatly a million nuyen will let him build his own prototype (with flaws) in less then 5 years. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sorry, but that's not something a skilled armorer puts toegether in his backyard without any troubles, we're talking about highly sophisticated equipment here where all the parts will probably be hard to come by, as they are manufactored specially for this kind of armor... The first part will probably be to get a construction plan for the thing, a run in itself (stealing an armor and trying to reverse-engineer it would be a possibility, but one that will takes months of work, at least).

Even with the construction plans, I doubt that it'll be cheaper - perhaps more expensive, as it's more cost-efficient to produce dozens (or more) armors than to produce 5 per hand (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Personally, I would advise him to simply steal the armor (from someone with aprox. the same size and weight) and re-fit it. Everything else doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
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Mithral MAge
post Sep 19 2008, 08:20 AM
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Its the full body armor in the core book. I don't remember mil spec being used to describe it. I hope your referring to something in Arsenal, a book I don't own. In fact the only 4E book I do own is the core book. I do own 20 to 30 books from 2 and 3E SR.
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Steampunk
post Sep 19 2008, 08:26 AM
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Ah, ok, my fault. In this case, it probably gets easier, but I still don't think that he will save much money when building it himself - and it will take a hell lot of time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The availability will probably go down by 2 (or something like that), but I still think that the parts aren't that easy to come by...
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Mithral MAge
post Sep 19 2008, 09:00 AM
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QUOTE (Steampunk @ Sep 19 2008, 09:26 AM) *
Ah, ok, my fault. In this case, it probably gets easier, but I still don't think that he will save much money when building it himself - and it will take a hell lot of time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The availability will probably go down by 2 (or something like that), but I still think that the parts aren't that easy to come by...



Maybe. Then again, there are "parts" of many dangerous things easy to acquire when the finished product is not in our modern day world. Maybe they get better about that in 2070, but I find it hard to believe. Especially when you consider the networks Shadowrunners have to have in order to operate in the SR world.

So the final product may be Availability 12R, but the materials to build it? Probably Availability 2. We are talking pure armor here, none of the electronics, and only the materials to get the rating 6 versus various things like fire, cold, electricity, and chemicals as well as the armor rating of 10/8.

I believe plasteel is the main component of the armor. Raw plasteel is probably as common and easy to get as steel is today in our world. His facility probably allows him to fabricate the plasteel pieces easily, not to mention incorporate the other materials.

Sure, I could rule that the materials are better controlled and have limited availability, but my understanding of the chain of processing raw materials into finished goods doesn't allow me to do so.

Heck, the special materials have many industrial applications, so plenty of channels to get the stuff through.
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sunnyside
post Sep 19 2008, 12:05 PM
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It's up to the GM what parts should cost (for example doing wood carvings would have little cost).

However the half price measure is used for building comlinks, and I think using it as a default would be a good way to go.

regular armor is made of
QUOTE
monofilament ballistic fabrics, spiderweave
threads, ceramic-titanium composite plates, and liquid armor
packs to cover non-rigid areas,


For full body armor

QUOTE
It features
a padded undersuit, over which patches of liquid armor gel
and extensive armor plates are attached.


I'd say the parts you need to outsource would be the monofilament, the liquid in the packs, and the ceramic-titanium base materials, requiring more than a facility to produce well. But maybe not. I guess that's up to you.

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Magus
post Sep 19 2008, 12:23 PM
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plasteel ingots are mentioned with a price in Street Magic under creating a Homunculus (sp?) don't have my book with me at the moment but I think it was something like 20K/ingot. Ingots = 1 Kg in mass.

So lets say he would need his weight * .5 in plasteel ingots?

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the_real_elwood
post Sep 19 2008, 05:37 PM
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I'd probably say that the upgrades to the armor cost full price or maybe 3/4 price, and the raw material cost for the armor comes in at somewhere around 1/4-1/2 the cost for the finished armor. Armor-grade steels are way different than just your standard grade structural steel, and are priced accordingly. Also, any other more specialized materials (like kevlar, composites, or ceramics) you can't just manufacture without extensive facilities and so are going to have to be purchased in an almost-finished state.
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Tarantula
post Sep 19 2008, 05:45 PM
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QUOTE (sunnyside @ Sep 19 2008, 06:05 AM) *
I'd say the parts you need to outsource would be the monofilament, the liquid in the packs, and the ceramic-titanium base materials, requiring more than a facility to produce well. But maybe not. I guess that's up to you.


More than a facility?

What? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif)

There isn't more than a facility. All the major production is done by "facility" level stuff.
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Mr. Unpronouncea...
post Sep 19 2008, 05:58 PM
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Yes, but:

ceramic-titanium production facility
and
gel-pack production facility

are almost certainly two different facilities.

Otherwise, you end up with weird things like people using their Talismonger shop to modify vehicles.
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Tarantula
post Sep 19 2008, 06:04 PM
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Per SR4, an armorer facility is applicable for uses of the armorer skill. There is no "ceramic-titanium production facility" or "gel-pack production facility".
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Ol' Scratch
post Sep 19 2008, 06:18 PM
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The closest set of rules for construction costs in SR4 that I'm aware of are found amidst the rules for desktop manufacturing in Arsenal (p. 130). For only 15,000 nuyen, it's probably the best way to go rather than worrying about normal shops if for no other reason than because they actually do have rules relating to their use. Plus it's more portable than a traditional shop, making it a really nice option for a shadowrunner.
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the_real_elwood
post Sep 19 2008, 06:55 PM
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Yeah ok, a "facility" is the highest level where stuff is made, but it doesn't include production for EVERYTHING, from taking raw materials out of the ground to putting a finished product out the door. If you're talking about building armor, you're going to assemble the armor from the component materials. The armorers facility doesn't include material refining, steel forging, heat treating, the chemical processes to make kevlar, the high temperature ovens needed to make ceramics. If you were to come up with the physical specs for a facility that could make a suit of armor up from raw materials, you're talking about something that's got at least 50 acres under roof. It's things like cutting, shaping, and assembling that happen in the armorers facility. You've still got to buy the raw materials, and in the case of armor, those raw materials are a little more specialized and hard to come by than plasteel.
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Ol' Scratch
post Sep 19 2008, 06:57 PM
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The word you're looking for is Factory. Which exists, but as far as I know doesn't have any rules associated with it because it's out of the realm of shadowrunners.
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Tarantula
post Sep 19 2008, 06:58 PM
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Ceramics are hard to come by? Really? A lot of people own a kiln. I can't imagine you couldn't buy the right kind of ceramics from a potter who takes orders.

Kevlar, You can probably buy. If nothing else from people who supply the tailors who fix all this armor after it gets shot up. In fact, you could probably get ceramic plates from it too. I bet theres a decent business fixing damage armor all together.
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sunnyside
post Sep 19 2008, 07:10 PM
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 19 2008, 01:58 PM) *
Kevlar, You can probably buy. If nothing else from people who supply the tailors who fix all this armor after it gets shot up. In fact, you could probably get ceramic plates from it too. I bet theres a decent business fixing damage armor all together.


Yes, which is where the 1/2 cost thing can come in.

To be clear

QUOTE
At the gamemaster’s
discretion, certain specialized tools or unusual parts may
need to be acquired separately.


And also if you want to make computer hardware you have to pay half price in costs.

But it is really up to you as the GM based on how you feel about the tech at the time. I mean computers used to take up huge rooms and now you can keep something more powerful in your pocket. So maybe instead of factories you character can get away with a lot using nanotech and the like.

So maybe you just need the base chemistry for the monofibres and you feed them into your electrospinner. Then take your chunks of high grade ceramic material and titanium to make plates, and I guess still the chemical needed for the packs. All in a all a significant reduction in cost.

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the_real_elwood
post Sep 19 2008, 07:18 PM
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 19 2008, 01:58 PM) *
Ceramics are hard to come by? Really? A lot of people own a kiln. I can't imagine you couldn't buy the right kind of ceramics from a potter who takes orders.

Kevlar, You can probably buy. If nothing else from people who supply the tailors who fix all this armor after it gets shot up. In fact, you could probably get ceramic plates from it too. I bet theres a decent business fixing damage armor all together.


Well yeah, the ceramics you used to make an ashtray in junior high art class aren't hard to come by, but we're not talking about that. Boron carbide, a typical ceramic used in body armors currently, is not so easy to come by or easy to work with. And you can't make it in the same kiln you used to make that ceramic coffee mug either. I'm not saying this stuff is impossible to come by, I'm saying that I'd charge the player about 1/2 the list price for the armor in material cost. If he was just trying to make some armor jacket with soft armor, I'd say closer to around 1/4 the list price in material cost. And for any enhancements to the armor, I'd charge 3/4 price, because it seems to me that stuff would be purchased closer to a finished state and added an to the armor. So in the end, you can build a suit of armor for less than the list price in the handbook or arsenal, but it's certainly not free. And I'd say the cost is more significant than just multiplying the weight of the armor by the cost of plasteel.
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Tarantula
post Sep 19 2008, 07:25 PM
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I agree with the half price cost for materials. I disagreed with the facility not being sufficient for creating it from those materials.
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sunnyside
post Sep 19 2008, 07:40 PM
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 19 2008, 03:25 PM) *
I agree with the half price cost for materials. I disagreed with the facility not being sufficient for creating it from those materials.


Well at that point your just down to details of how you want things to work. Does he buy ceramic plates and cut them or high quality ceramics and titanium and press out an alloy. Does he buy sheats of ballistic monofiber or the chemical precoursours?

Up to you.
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Tarantula
post Sep 19 2008, 07:48 PM
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He buys "parts" for X nuyen and makes Y armor in his facility.

I don't really care what "parts" it is, but its "parts".
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kzt
post Sep 19 2008, 08:04 PM
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QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Sep 19 2008, 12:18 PM) *
Well yeah, the ceramics you used to make an ashtray in junior high art class aren't hard to come by, but we're not talking about that. Boron carbide, a typical ceramic used in body armors currently, is not so easy to come by or easy to work with. And you can't make it in the same kiln you used to make that ceramic coffee mug either. I'm not saying this stuff is impossible to come by, I'm saying that I'd charge the player about 1/2 the list price for the armor in material cost.

I'd have the GM make the rolls for the player on this. People have gotten bad ceramic plates. They weight just as much and cost a little less, but they don't stop bullets. "For you, special deal!"

There is a reason why people don't weave their own seatbelts or get their girlfriend to sew them a parachute, even if it would be cheaper.
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MJBurrage
post Sep 19 2008, 08:15 PM
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Completely agree with Tarantula on this.

Shadowrun is deliberately abstract on many things and build/repair is one of them.

As long as the GM allows a character to get a facility, then it just becomes parts at an abstract cost plus time = finished piece of gear.

Given where real life tech has already gotten with 3D printers the whole need a factory debate is pointless. I have personally handled metal parts that were grown in a 3D printer to tolerances that could not have been easily machined in even a high end shop.

Having said that, it would still be often true that the time it takes to make a one-off copy ends up costing more (in the value of your time) than the cost of a mass-produced version. But that is already abstracted in the extended test and the character's skill.
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the_real_elwood
post Sep 19 2008, 08:18 PM
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QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 19 2008, 02:25 PM) *
I agree with the half price cost for materials. I disagreed with the facility not being sufficient for creating it from those materials.


We're not disagreeing on this. I'm saying that "materials" is the steel, ceramic, kevlar, gel packs, whatever. So he can buy those materials and build a suit of armor using his armorers facility. But he can't get raw materials and use said armorers facility to make ceramic plates or gel packs. I just wanted to say that it's not right to say that the character can go dig some iron ore out of the ground and use his armorers facility to make some armor.
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Tarantula
post Sep 19 2008, 08:21 PM
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And I'm saying you don't need to care what the materials are. Its materials, he buys them. Then he makes his armor. The end.

He says, but I found some iron, and you go thats nice, is it armor parts? No, its iron. You need armor parts.
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the_real_elwood
post Sep 19 2008, 08:28 PM
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Fair enough, the specific parts aren't important to the rules. The cost of the materials is what's important. As far as the rules are concerned, the armorers facility could magically turn nuyen into armor. I just threw the specifics in there as some additional fluff to go around the costs I suggested.
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