I have a player who wants to make himself Body Armor, with all enhancements in the core book other than Thermal at rating 6. He definitely has the skill, Armorer 5, but what I can't find is how much the materials will cost him. He already has a Facility (He used the Weapon Specialist written up in the book as his character template), so I could just rule he has all the parts on hand, but I know the other party members will want him to make it for them as well. So I want to know if there is an official way to price items? Right now I am just assuming half of the final cost as the cost of the parts.

IE, 10,000 nuyen retail means $5,000 cost to construct.

Now what if he wants to fabricate everything from raw materials? He does have a Facility, so I imagine he has all the machine tools, forges, and machines he would need. At least for armoring. I would imagine that would reduce his costs to as low as 10% of final retail, no higher than 30%. Is there anything in the rules, beyond the core book (or in it if I have failed to find them) about this?

Plus how should I describe the facility? Would a facility be big like Orange County Choppers newest facility? Older facility? Either would work?

I mean I have seen machine Shops that could pretty much do anything they needed, so I don't really feel clear on the difference between a shop and a facility. It seems to me it would be the machinery. I don't see a shop having everything for 5,000 nuyen, unless they were great at doing auctions. So am I correct in assuming that it is the machinery that is the difference?

Body Armor? Are we talking about Milspec here... I think, it would be a good way to start looking for construction plans. Doesn't have one? No problem, a dozen (skilled) helpers, a big laboratory and aproximatly a million nuyen will let him build his own prototype (with flaws) in less then 5 years.

Sorry, but that's not something a skilled armorer puts toegether in his backyard without any troubles, we're talking about highly sophisticated equipment here where all the parts will probably be hard to come by, as they are manufactored specially for this kind of armor... The first part will probably be to get a construction plan for the thing, a run in itself (stealing an armor and trying to reverse-engineer it would be a possibility, but one that will takes months of work, at least).

Even with the construction plans, I doubt that it'll be cheaper - perhaps more expensive, as it's more cost-efficient to produce dozens (or more) armors than to produce 5 per hand

Personally, I would advise him to simply steal the armor (from someone with aprox. the same size and weight) and re-fit it. Everything else doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

Its the full body armor in the core book. I don't remember mil spec being used to describe it. I hope your referring to something in Arsenal, a book I don't own. In fact the only 4E book I do own is the core book. I do own 20 to 30 books from 2 and 3E SR.

Ah, ok, my fault. In this case, it probably gets easier, but I still don't think that he will save much money when building it himself - and it will take a hell lot of time The availability will probably go down by 2 (or something like that), but I still think that the parts aren't that easy to come by...

Maybe. Then again, there are "parts" of many dangerous things easy to acquire when the finished product is not in our modern day world. Maybe they get better about that in 2070, but I find it hard to believe. Especially when you consider the networks Shadowrunners have to have in order to operate in the SR world.

So the final product may be Availability 12R, but the materials to build it? Probably Availability 2. We are talking pure armor here, none of the electronics, and only the materials to get the rating 6 versus various things like fire, cold, electricity, and chemicals as well as the armor rating of 10/8.

I believe plasteel is the main component of the armor. Raw plasteel is probably as common and easy to get as steel is today in our world. His facility probably allows him to fabricate the plasteel pieces easily, not to mention incorporate the other materials.

Sure, I could rule that the materials are better controlled and have limited availability, but my understanding of the chain of processing raw materials into finished goods doesn't allow me to do so.

Heck, the special materials have many industrial applications, so plenty of channels to get the stuff through.

It's up to the GM what parts should cost (for example doing wood carvings would have little cost).

However the half price measure is used for building comlinks, and I think using it as a default would be a good way to go.

regular armor is made of


For full body armor



I'd say the parts you need to outsource would be the monofilament, the liquid in the packs, and the ceramic-titanium base materials, requiring more than a facility to produce well. But maybe not. I guess that's up to you.

plasteel ingots are mentioned with a price in Street Magic under creating a Homunculus (sp?) don't have my book with me at the moment but I think it was something like 20K/ingot. Ingots = 1 Kg in mass.

So lets say he would need his weight * .5 in plasteel ingots?

I'd probably say that the upgrades to the armor cost full price or maybe 3/4 price, and the raw material cost for the armor comes in at somewhere around 1/4-1/2 the cost for the finished armor. Armor-grade steels are way different than just your standard grade structural steel, and are priced accordingly. Also, any other more specialized materials (like kevlar, composites, or ceramics) you can't just manufacture without extensive facilities and so are going to have to be purchased in an almost-finished state.

More than a facility?

What?

There isn't more than a facility. All the major production is done by "facility" level stuff.

Yes, but:

ceramic-titanium production facility
and
gel-pack production facility

are almost certainly two different facilities.

Otherwise, you end up with weird things like people using their Talismonger shop to modify vehicles.

Per SR4, an armorer facility is applicable for uses of the armorer skill. There is no "ceramic-titanium production facility" or "gel-pack production facility".

The closest set of rules for construction costs in SR4 that I'm aware of are found amidst the rules for desktop manufacturing in Arsenal (p. 130). For only 15,000 nuyen, it's probably the best way to go rather than worrying about normal shops if for no other reason than because they actually do have rules relating to their use. Plus it's more portable than a traditional shop, making it a really nice option for a shadowrunner.

Yeah ok, a "facility" is the highest level where stuff is made, but it doesn't include production for EVERYTHING, from taking raw materials out of the ground to putting a finished product out the door. If you're talking about building armor, you're going to assemble the armor from the component materials. The armorers facility doesn't include material refining, steel forging, heat treating, the chemical processes to make kevlar, the high temperature ovens needed to make ceramics. If you were to come up with the physical specs for a facility that could make a suit of armor up from raw materials, you're talking about something that's got at least 50 acres under roof. It's things like cutting, shaping, and assembling that happen in the armorers facility. You've still got to buy the raw materials, and in the case of armor, those raw materials are a little more specialized and hard to come by than plasteel.

The word you're looking for is Factory. Which exists, but as far as I know doesn't have any rules associated with it because it's out of the realm of shadowrunners.

Ceramics are hard to come by? Really? A lot of people own a kiln. I can't imagine you couldn't buy the right kind of ceramics from a potter who takes orders.

Kevlar, You can probably buy. If nothing else from people who supply the tailors who fix all this armor after it gets shot up. In fact, you could probably get ceramic plates from it too. I bet theres a decent business fixing damage armor all together.

Yes, which is where the 1/2 cost thing can come in.

To be clear



And also if you want to make computer hardware you have to pay half price in costs.

But it is really up to you as the GM based on how you feel about the tech at the time. I mean computers used to take up huge rooms and now you can keep something more powerful in your pocket. So maybe instead of factories you character can get away with a lot using nanotech and the like.

So maybe you just need the base chemistry for the monofibres and you feed them into your electrospinner. Then take your chunks of high grade ceramic material and titanium to make plates, and I guess still the chemical needed for the packs. All in a all a significant reduction in cost.

Well yeah, the ceramics you used to make an ashtray in junior high art class aren't hard to come by, but we're not talking about that. Boron carbide, a typical ceramic used in body armors currently, is not so easy to come by or easy to work with. And you can't make it in the same kiln you used to make that ceramic coffee mug either. I'm not saying this stuff is impossible to come by, I'm saying that I'd charge the player about 1/2 the list price for the armor in material cost. If he was just trying to make some armor jacket with soft armor, I'd say closer to around 1/4 the list price in material cost. And for any enhancements to the armor, I'd charge 3/4 price, because it seems to me that stuff would be purchased closer to a finished state and added an to the armor. So in the end, you can build a suit of armor for less than the list price in the handbook or arsenal, but it's certainly not free. And I'd say the cost is more significant than just multiplying the weight of the armor by the cost of plasteel.

I agree with the half price cost for materials. I disagreed with the facility not being sufficient for creating it from those materials.

Well at that point your just down to details of how you want things to work. Does he buy ceramic plates and cut them or high quality ceramics and titanium and press out an alloy. Does he buy sheats of ballistic monofiber or the chemical precoursours?

Up to you.

He buys "parts" for X nuyen and makes Y armor in his facility.

I don't really care what "parts" it is, but its "parts".

I'd have the GM make the rolls for the player on this. People have gotten bad ceramic plates. They weight just as much and cost a little less, but they don't stop bullets. "For you, special deal!"

There is a reason why people don't weave their own seatbelts or get their girlfriend to sew them a parachute, even if it would be cheaper.

Completely agree with Tarantula on this.

Shadowrun is deliberately abstract on many things and build/repair is one of them.

As long as the GM allows a character to get a facility, then it just becomes parts at an abstract cost plus time = finished piece of gear.

Given where real life tech has already gotten with 3D printers the whole need a factory debate is pointless. I have personally handled metal parts that were grown in a 3D printer to tolerances that could not have been easily machined in even a high end shop.

Having said that, it would still be often true that the time it takes to make a one-off copy ends up costing more (in the value of your time) than the cost of a mass-produced version. But that is already abstracted in the extended test and the character's skill.

We're not disagreeing on this. I'm saying that "materials" is the steel, ceramic, kevlar, gel packs, whatever. So he can buy those materials and build a suit of armor using his armorers facility. But he can't get raw materials and use said armorers facility to make ceramic plates or gel packs. I just wanted to say that it's not right to say that the character can go dig some iron ore out of the ground and use his armorers facility to make some armor.

And I'm saying you don't need to care what the materials are. Its materials, he buys them. Then he makes his armor. The end.

He says, but I found some iron, and you go thats nice, is it armor parts? No, its iron. You need armor parts.

Fair enough, the specific parts aren't important to the rules. The cost of the materials is what's important. As far as the rules are concerned, the armorers facility could magically turn nuyen into armor. I just threw the specifics in there as some additional fluff to go around the costs I suggested.

See Troy Hurtubise, who has created the most advanced body armor in the world to date. He has invented explosion and flame retardant materials that are unprecidented.

The Mark VI, which he designed and built from scratch, took him Seven Years and 150,000 dollars. This is without any Engineering or Armor design experience. He never even got a college degree (took some courses). He was attacked by a bear then decided to make Bear Proof armor, and has gone on from there.

Now just imagine what he could do if he started with a 200,000 facility, and an Armoring skill of 4 or 5? And we arent even talking about making Powered Bear Proof Explosion Proof Fireproof nearly-invincible armor. We are just talking about a standard suit of body armor.

On top of that, he could probably get a blueprint or design off the matrix, granted it may be a few years old or cost a bit. He could even take a suit of body armor and reverse engineer it to create a blueprint, then manufacture duplicates.

Point being, its not quite a million dollar 5 year journey if you already have skill and a facility.

Are you kidding me? Don't reference that guy as justification for anything. He's a crackpot, and there's a reason why no one is jumping at the opportunity to license his armor design. But if you think it's so great, then I'd invite you to get shot at while you're wearing it. REAL armor companies do spend lots of time and money on design, and they do use sophisticated production techniques to make their stuff. Designing your own armor is no easy feat, and would take a significant amount of time. Modifying an existing design and then producing it in your own facility is much easier.

They called the guy who discovered how to cure 90% of all ulcers a crack pot as well. Then the NAtional Enquirer published his cure and now 90% of all ulcers get cured.

The frickin National Enquirer.

So I wouldn't necessarily believe the "experts" are right about anyone being a crack pot, or not.

As for "facility", and costing 100,000 creds, I would guess they have plenty of fabrication type machines in the facility, such as a kiln, one that goes to 2600+ degrees celcius, just like the one at my college. Everything melts at 2600 degrees C. I also know the powdered titanium is available to the ceramics class.

As for the ballistic gel, if its anything like current ballistic gel it is simple enough to make in your kitchen if you know the ingredients.

As for realistic pricing most retail pricing is anywhere from 3 to 8 times what the cost to manufacture was. Even higher, in the case of blue jeans. Those are 10 to 30 times what their cost of manufacture was, depending on the name brand.

$20 dollar jeans were manufactured in Mexico for less than $2.00.

Now, why would it be cheap for someone to manufacture stuff in their facility? They don't charge themselves for the labor. Usually, the single biggest cost of manufacturing, after building the facility itself.

I don't have a problem with "Parts are Parts", so long as Parts X are for Facility X, and Parts Y are for Facility Y. No using gun parts to build computers.


The only thing is, monowire is written as only being able to be crafted by nanites. And some say, in zero-G as well. With that in mind, I'd only allow someone to generate monowire from scratch if they had a nanoforge availiable to them.

And if you guys really want to get into the factory vs facility thing: neither one actually makes things from scratch. You don't send in metal ingots and raw rubber, and expect to get a car with tires. You send in prefabricated parts, which are then assembled.

Personally, I picture a facility as one of those major shops on Pimp my Ride. You know, the ones that can take apart a car and rebuild it from the frame up? It also has points that aren't moveable, such as mechanic's pits or full-size hydraulic car-lifters. Technically, they *can* be moved; but you'd have to re-dig a hole for them, lay concrete, etc, etc. A shop can fit in the back of a decent-sized van, but a facility requires a commercial flatbed, and some parts might not be movable at all.

As a gross simplification of distribution and productions costs:

• Consumer pays store 100
• Store paid distributor ~50
• Distributor paid producer around 20–30
• Producer may have paid subcontractor 10–15

In other words the direct cost of mass production is about 10% of the retail price. The other 90% covers indirect costs, labour, and profit at each level of production.

Amazon skips the store, as they are their own distributor, which is how they sell things at 30–40% off, give free shipping, and still make a profit.

When you buy a book from its publisher, you are skipping 1–2 step in the normal chain, and therefore are at least doubling the publishers gross income.

P.S. Having said all that you should still buy game books from your local store whenever possible since those stores are key to creating new customers, and those new customers are key to the paper RPG hobby not going away.

You can search that guy's name on Youtube and see a video of his creation. See for yourself how much of a crackpot he is. But honestly, the proof is in the pudding, and he has nothing to show for his creation. Also, the gel pack stuff that was referenced earlier isn't the same thing as the ballistics gel on mythbusters. The description of the gel says that it hardens when a bullet hits it from the shockwave coming from the impact, so it's a little more complex of a material than the ballistics gel you can make in your kitchen. THAT ballistics gel is just something that has roughly the same density as flesh.

You mean a non-newtonian fluid? Ya know, like cornstarch + water? Cause thats hard to make

"Homemade body armor? Sure. After all, what could possibly go wrong?"

If you're talking about that new nano-gel stuff that hardens when it's struck (and I'm pretty sure they are because I read about it in a science magazine and pretty soon saw it in a SR sourcebook) then it's definitely not something you can just mix up in your basement. It takes very precise materials (read: expensive and far from common) and very precise mixtures to make the stuff work as advertised.

And yes, $20 jeans cost less than $2.00 to make. Of course, shipping and all of the inter-related tasks isn't free, either.

Tell you what. You make a cornstarch and water gel suit and I'll shoot you a few times with my Glock. We'll see what force wins.

Its is my opinion that people on this board worry entirely to much about reality, and not enough about gameability. Is it plausible that a character could make him self a suit of high-tech mil-spec armor out of raw materials at his home facility at huge cost savings? Possibly.

Is it a good idea in game to allow a character to do it? Probably not. I mean, if he can make mil-spec armor at such a cost savings, why is he shadowrunning? He should become a professional armor maker, of course them we would have to change the name of the game to ArmorMakerRun, and it probably wouldn't be as catchy.

So a short sweet gameable answer is he can build it in about a month for half-cost. Set the threshold/interval on his test appropriately. This preserves balance in the game, but still gives him some use out of his skill (as he is still getting a major cost savings and getting to ignore Availability).

----

Of course some may not be satisfied with this, so why exactly might he not be able to mass-produce custom mil-spec armor at his facility? The answer, in a word, is Time. For PC's time is money. While he likely could build and design said armor from scratch at a tremendous cost savings, the amount of time it would take would be prohibitive.

#1. This character doesn't just want an armored jacket, he wants custom Mil-Spec armor with (almost) all the fixings. Designs for that don't just exist out on the net someplace for him. If those designs exist at all they are carefully guarded trade secrets of the company who designed them. While it might be possible for a character to design such a piece of Armor himself, it is more likely carried out by a team of professional armor designers at the corp to save time. Doing it on his own would take much more time. Possibly a year? Of course he could 'acquire' those plans somehow. Sounds like a good hook for a run to me.

#2. While his facility probably does have all the tools, furnaces, and what not to build the armor from scratch, this is likely not the most efficient manner of doing it. Or the way your typical armor factory does it. They likely buy armor plate, ballistic fiber, and what not from another factory that specilises in thier manufacture. As doing it this way is faster and cheaper. Of course your character can still weave his own ballistic fiber if he wants, but it is much more time consuming. Buy the semi-finished parts is much faster, but of course this is more expensive.

#3. He has a facility, not a factory. Think of it like a proto-type lab or something. He can of course build virtually anything (appropriate to the facility) from scratch here, but there is a big gap between being able to build it, and being able to mass-produce it. His facility is based around doing small jobs, not huge ones. So mass-production is out of the picture. (Not sure if this would be a concurn of yours, but I know my players would think of it).

It's not really an issue of saving money. Nuyen is easy to get in the shadows, especially with the new costs of things in SR4. Availability isn't even really an issue anymore as it can be rendered null and void by time (it's just a Negotiation + Charisma extended test; 20/1 week in the case of milspec armor). Since downtime can be from days to months, it's... well, it's not really a big issue. Especially if you have a hardcore Face in your group who could knock that down in no time.

If you really have an issue with characters making things instead of buying them, just use the item's Availability in the same way for the crafting tests. In other words, milspec armor would require an Armorer + Logic (20/1 week) extended test. For every 25% of the base cost of the item they put into it (representing buying the more difficult components instead of having to homeforge/jury-rig them) adds an extra die to each test, up to a maximum of 10 dice. Maybe give a -1 Threshold bonus for each "level" of tools the player has.

What's a rule like this accomplish It grants characters an alternative. Especially those characters where having hot-shot social skills aren't appropriate for the concept, but having crafting skills are. Now instead of having to wait months and paying the full price (if not more) for an item, they can either craft their own in about the same amount of time or do it less time for more money.

The end result is the same: The character still winds up with the item. So, honestly, I don't get why people get their panties in a bunch about things like this. If as a GM you have some reason to not want players to have certain items, well, you can be narrow-minded and simply outright ban it from your game. Personally I'd rather just let the players go through the effort only to learn that there are consequences for possessing and using that kind of gear where it's not appropriate. But that's just me, apparently.

Well, what really happened in this thread is that the OP asked a simple and reasonable question about what cost he should charge his player for the materials to make a suit of armor. A general consensus was reached in a couple of posts, and the rest of the thread has been pretty much entirely people arguing about the fluff-related details of making some armor. I don't think anyone really disagrees with the precept of letting the character make a suit of armor at a reduced cost from the list price stated in the handbook.

The majority of my previous post had to do more with keeping with the abstracts that Shadowrun is grounded in, as opposed to the attempts at hyper-realism (and especially the whining and pouting about how it's just not realistic OMFG).

The only reason I worry about the realism is I was in manufacturing for a few years, taking raw materials and turning them into finished products, including casting, molding, etc...

So I just wanted a sense of where the SR rules are in comparison to my understanding of manufacturing, price mark ups, etc...

I have that now.