Upgraded Character Generator, Updated Generator Based on work from Autarkis and Blakkie Options

[DamienKnight]

Version 1e is now available

http://www.mediafire.com/?zttgjeneldh

sr4cg_dk_1e
- Fixes to Armor outfits
- Revised Gear Categories
- Added flamethrowers and laser weapons
- Removed lifestyles from Gear page and replaced with Doc wagon contracts

[Delarn]

Missing AI qualities. E-Ghost and Piloting Origin.

---Edit---
Also miss the inherent programs from AI code. This should be put into a different shee than the base one (a Copy of hte technomancer maybe) With the calculated Rating in there and not in the main sheet.
So the AI race cost would be 110 and not only 60.

--- Edit December 26th ---
It would need a way to print only the sheet. Or a way to export the sheet to an HTML.

[Delarn]

Can it be used for a backbone file to a more userfriendly interface ?

[KarmaInferno]

Any reason why the sheet averages Cyberlimb armor?

The SR4A doesnt actually say to do that, even if it is a good house rule.

I modded my sheet to have an option checkbox so you can select to average it or not.




-karma

[DamienKnight]

Any reason why the sheet averages Cyberlimb armor?

The SR4A doesnt actually say to do that, even if it is a good house rule.

I modded my sheet to have an option checkbox so you can select to average it or not.
-karma

Based on the way armor outfits work in the Arsenal book, and the way other Cyberlimb Enhancements are applied via an average, I cannot conceive that they intended a 6 point armor enhancement on your left leg to provide you the same armor as a lined coat that covers everything but your head.

It is great that you were able to program in your house rule allowing superpowered cyberlimb armor. I commend your spreadsheet prowess.

I would not ever consider using that house rule, and unless I am convinced there are a lot of users that want it, suggest you do not look for it to be included in any future versions of the sheet.

Can it be used for a backbone file to a more userfriendly interface ?

What exactly are you looking for? Back in *edit* early beta 9 I setup XML exporting/importing options for excel versions of the sheet. It required a plugin be installed in excel, did not work in Open Office, and caused cell's formatting to be reset when importing. All in all it was a big headache with very little payout. Since there was not any community feedback about the xml exporting I had setup, I assumed no one was using it and discontinued it in Beta 9k.

One could write a macro to export the data, but I do not see myself being bored enough to do that anytime in the near future. I have removed most macro functionality from the spreadsheet, since macros do not translate between different Spreadsheet programs, such as Open Office Calc and Microsoft Excel.

If you are wanting to write a macro for exporting some character data, I am available to answer questions. VBscript is a very well documented scripting language, and easy to use. Open Office Basic less so, but could still get the job done.

[Dakka Dakka]

Based on the way armor outfits work in the Arsenal book, and the way other Cyberlimb Enhancements are applied via an average, I cannot conceive that they intended a 6 point armor enhancement on your left leg to provide you the same armor as a lined coat that covers everything but your head.

Here is the reason why adding the armor is indeed RAW: Armor is not an Attribute (Those are STR, AGI, REA, BOD, CHA INT, LOG, WIL, EDG, MAG, RES).

There are several other armor items that cover portions of different sizes of the wearer's body but provide the same bonus: Lined coat (6/4), Chameleon Suit (6/4), Armor Vest (6/4). The reason for this is that the armor value represents both the protective capabilities of the material and the area it covers. This is also the reason why even the most advanced helmet, which is made out of more durable material than most flexible armor worn on the torso or extremities, only adds +2/+2 to the overall protection. Just assume that the cyberlimbs can use the same protective material. Since most arms, legs and torsos are larger than a head, I can see why each limb can have up to 4 points of armor.

There are also some practical considerations: every point of capacity that is used for armor cannot be used for other cool stuff.

Oh and BTW cyberlimb armor goes only up to 4 per limb.

I would not ever consider using that house rule, and unless I am convinced there are a lot of users that want it, suggest you do not look for it to be included in any future versions of the sheet.

As I wrote above, adding up all cyberlimb armor is RAW and not a houserule. If you haven't guessed already, I'm for including this in the spreadsheet.

Don't get me wrong, I admire your work so far and hope you continue it, even if we agree on this subject.

[DamienKnight]

Here is the reason why adding the armor is indeed RAW: Armor is not an Attribute (Those are STR, AGI, REA, BOD, CHA INT, LOG, WIL, EDG, MAG, RES).

There are several other armor items that cover portions of different sizes of the wearer's body but provide the same bonus: Lined coat (6/4), Chameleon Suit (6/4), Armor Vest (6/4). The reason for this is that the armor value represents both the protective capabilities of the material and the area it covers. This is also the reason why even the most advanced helmet, which is made out of more durable material than most flexible armor worn on the torso or extremities, only adds +2/+2 to the overall protection. Just assume that the cyberlimbs can use the same protective material. Since most arms, legs and torsos are larger than a head, I can see why each limb can have up to 4 points of armor.

There are also some practical considerations: every point of capacity that is used for armor cannot be used for other cool stuff.

Oh and BTW cyberlimb armor goes only up to 4 per limb.

As I wrote above, adding up all cyberlimb armor is RAW and not a houserule. If you haven't guessed already, I'm for including this in the spreadsheet.

Don't get me wrong, I admire your work so far and hope you continue it, even if we agree on this subject.

Interesting points. I see there is a thread in the main shadowrun forum about this, lets continue the discussion there:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=29296

[Delarn]

Based on the way armor outfits work in the Arsenal book, and the way other Cyberlimb Enhancements are applied via an average, I cannot conceive that they intended a 6 point armor enhancement on your left leg to provide you the same armor as a lined coat that covers everything but your head.

It is great that you were able to program in your house rule allowing superpowered cyberlimb armor. I commend your spreadsheet prowess.

I would not ever consider using that house rule, and unless I am convinced there are a lot of users that want it, suggest you do not look for it to be included in any future versions of the sheet.



What exactly are you looking for? Back in beta 8 I setup XML exporting/importing options for excel versions of the sheet. It required a plugin be installed in excel, did not work in Open Office, and caused cell's formatting to be reset when importing. All in all it was a big headache with very little payout. Since there was not any community feedback about the xml exporting I had setup, I assumed no one was using it and discontinued it in Beta 9.

One could write a macro to export the data, but I do not see myself being bored enough to do that anytime in the near future. I have removed most macro functionality from the spreadsheet, since macros do not translate between different Spreadsheet programs, such as Open Office Calc and Microsoft Excel.

If you are wanting to write a macro for exporting some character data, I am available to answer questions. VBscript is a very well documented scripting language, and easy to use. Open Office Basic less so, but could still get the job done.

I'll check with a friend we would like to export it in XML.

[KarmaInferno]

Based on the way armor outfits work in the Arsenal book, and the way other Cyberlimb Enhancements are applied via an average, I cannot conceive that they intended a 6 point armor enhancement on your left leg to provide you the same armor as a lined coat that covers everything but your head.

It is great that you were able to program in your house rule allowing superpowered cyberlimb armor. I commend your spreadsheet prowess.

I would not ever consider using that house rule, and unless I am convinced there are a lot of users that want it, suggest you do not look for it to be included in any future versions of the sheet.

I'm not sure I came off the right way. I wasn't trying to ruffle any feathers, just asked a question based on what I understood the rules to say.

I also think averaging the armor values as a good idea, which is why the modification I mentioned allows one to turn the averaging on or off, rather than just eliminating it. More options and functionality = teh better, I think.

My personal copy of your spreadsheet I've modified so extensively you'd probably barely recognize it. But that's because I'm in inveterate tinkerer, I can't ever leave well enough alone when I see something that isn't quiiite the way I want it, or perhaps I see a way to add some bits that I find interesting.

Thanks for the sheet! It's a great help to me.



-karma

[Draco18s]

Just FYI: a full cybor body with all capacity filled with armor gets you 22/22* armor (non-averaged) and costs some (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 66,600 (obvious 'ware), 6.25 Essence (both before better grades), and 5 Restricted Gear qualities (one for each limb that has 3+ armor in it)

Full body armor with helmet and ballistic shield gives you 18/14 armor for only (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 8,500

You could also add in R3 Dermal sheath (to either) for another +3/+4 for a cost of 1.6 Essence and (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 40,000 + Restricted Gear
Or R3 Dermal Plating (again, to either, exclusive with dermal sheath) for +3/+3 cost: 1.5 Essence and (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 15,000 + Restricted Gear

Seems reasonable to me.

*Maximum 4 armor in any given limb (see SR4 p336), each limb loses 8 capacity (except the skull, which as 4 cap and only 2 points of armor taking [4]).

[Dakka Dakka]

In 1e 'ware that provides armor (Orthoskin, Dermal Sheath/Plating, Bone Lacing) doesn't show up on the resistance section of the CharSheet. I'm not sure if it did before, since i rarely build heavily cybered characters. Everything that provides armor (B/I) is missing, bonuses to BOD are there however. Am I doing something wrong?

Maybe you could add an armor item like inherent armor that sums up the character's ware to be included in an outfit? This could also include Mystic Armor, which is missing as well. Only the troll's dermal armor is shown.

[DamienKnight]

Just FYI: a full cybor body with all capacity filled with armor gets you 22/22* armor (non-averaged) and costs some (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 66,600 (obvious 'ware), 6.25 Essence (both before better grades), and 5 Restricted Gear qualities (one for each limb that has 3+ armor in it)

Fully synthetic limbs, loaded with their maximum armor, without using any bulk capacity enhancements, allows for 19 points of Ballistic/Impact without altering the users appearance. This is more armor than the biggest, thickest, heaviest, most restrictive suit of armor available in all of the shadowrun universe. You are basically saying that under the characters skin, without making a very noticable change to their appearance, they have MORE armor that a HUGE suit of armor. It just does not fit.

With the biggest non-limb-replacement enhancement, the limit is +3/+4. Adding limbs gives you extra damage boxes already. I cannot think that they intended for limbs to break this pattern.

I just cannot rectify it within the realm of reason. It defies all other examples of balance put forth in the books.

I'm not sure I came off the right way. I wasn't trying to ruffle any feathers, just asked a question based on what I understood the rules to say.

I guess my feathers were ruffled. Not by the way you said it, but mostly because I am so astounded people are interpreting the rules in that manner. I checked out the main forum and there is a consensus of 'allowance through omission'. Because the book does not specify that armor values per armor should be averaged, then RAW says you MUST not average them.

While that is a valid interpretation, it is not the only interpretation. Because you have a non-specific RAW rule, it is wrong to say that one interpretation is RAW and another is not.

I believe that averaging the armor values together does not conflict with what the book specifies, and is compliant with other aspects of armor and limb rules provided in the books. While NOT averaging the armor of cyberlimbs also is NOT in conflict with the rules laid out for cyberlimb armor, it IS in conflict with the other rules provided.

If Catalyst provided clarification of this in a FAQ or Errata, I would add the option in to the sheet. As of now, I may add in this house rule for those who want super cyberguys with more armor than a tank, but it will not be a priority.

I also think averaging the armor values as a good idea, which is why the modification I mentioned allows one to turn the averaging on or off, rather than just eliminating it. More options and functionality = teh better, I think.

My personal copy of your spreadsheet I've modified so extensively you'd probably barely recognize it. But that's because I'm in inveterate tinkerer, I can't ever leave well enough alone when I see something that isn't quiiite the way I want it, or perhaps I see a way to add some bits that I find interesting.

Thanks for the sheet! It's a great help to me.

-karma

I am glad you agree about averaging. Now that I have seen how many people have adopted the CyberTANK armor rule, I will eventually add it as a house rule to the sheet.

Its great to tinker... it is how I got started on this sheet. I downloaded Auturkis/Blakkies sheet, then a few others, and realized I wanted a little more (did not know about dumpshocks community project at the time, which had already done a bit of the stuff I decided to do). The more I added, the more I wanted, until suddenly the sheet was huge and worthy of sharing on the forums. It is great fun, and good practice for my work (The company I work for still uses a few huge spreadsheets for certain reports, despite the fact that we have Cognos for reporting.)

If your changes are extensive, perhaps you have more suggestions for this sheet? I promise not to bite your head off if I dont agree with your proposals (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In 1e 'ware that provides armor (Orthoskin, Dermal Sheath/Plating, Bone Lacing) doesn't show up on the resistance section of the CharSheet. I'm not sure if it did before, since i rarely build heavily cybered characters. Everything that provides armor (B/I) is missing, bonuses to BOD are there however. Am I doing something wrong?

Maybe you could add an armor item like inherent armor that sums up the character's ware to be included in an outfit? This could also include Mystic Armor, which is missing as well. Only the troll's dermal armor is shown.

Mystic armor and Quality based armor mods are available on your version of the sheet. Just select them as a normal piece of armor. They appear at the bottom of the armor list under 'Special Placeholders'. They are free of cost, and are there to help you calculate the Mystic Armor and such into your armor outfits.

I neglected to add cyberware/bioware armor into this list. Went ahead and added it in version f. I play a Phys Ad with Mystic Armor and Elemental resistances, so that was my mindset going it. Forgot all about the razorboys.

Currently Elemental Resistances will NOT appear in your dropdown for mods for mystic armor. The cell validation needs to be updated. If manually entered as a mod for Mystic Armor, they WILL calculate correctly, and even highlight if you select a level higher than you purchased on your Magic Page. This is fixed in the next version.

I have yet to add in Orthoskin mods to the Gear Page's Armor Specialty mods. Probably will have it done in this next version.

If you are using cyberlimbs, I highly recommend speaking to your GM about the Cyberlimb Discount Bodyware rule. I believe it is presented in the Augmentation book. Basically it gives a slight discount on price for Bodyware enhancements when you have limbs. This is very important on the sheet if you are getting Dermal Sheathing or Orthoskin, as the sheet calculates them via RAW, which specifies that they do not provide their bonus on cyberlimbs.

So, if you have 3/4 armor from dermal sheathing, and 2 cyberarms, you are probably going to only see +2/3 on your Cyber Armor enhancement, to represent that the sheathing does not cover the arms. If you are suffering that penalty, you should at least not have to pay full price for the sheathing!!

[Vittek]

Hello Damien, thank you for the new version.
Actually I already took a look at it a couple of weeks ago but forgot to comment.
I saw what you did with the DocWagon contracts, nice work.
Regarding lifestyles, I actually preferred the previous version, I don't own the Runner's Companion so the base lifestyles were good for me.
Anyway, I wanted to report that the character sheets a reporting a street lifestyle no matter what, and also the third is reporting a gold DocWagon contract by default.

Thank you again, keep up the good work!

[Tyro]

Hello Damien, thank you for the new version.
Actually I already took a look at it a couple of weeks ago but forgot to comment.
I saw what you did with the DocWagon contracts, nice work.
Regarding lifestyles, I actually preferred the previous version, I don't own the Runner's Companion so the base lifestyles were good for me.
Anyway, I wanted to report that the character sheets a reporting a street lifestyle no matter what, and also the third is reporting a gold DocWagon contract by default.

Thank you again, keep up the good work!

Just a quick note: If you choose your target level in all categories (say, Low), and you don't pick any extras, the cost comes out the same as a base (non-Companion) lifestyle.

Damien: Engraved datajacks still cost zero Essence. Keep up the good work!

[DamienKnight]

Regarding lifestyles, I actually preferred the previous version, I don't own the Runner's Companion so the base lifestyles were good for me.
Anyway, I wanted to report that the character sheets a reporting a street lifestyle no matter what, and also the third is reporting a gold DocWagon contract by default

Good point with the third charsheet. It does not seem to me that the other two have any problems.

Are you remembering to select the # of months the lifestyle has been purchased for? If the lifestyle is used up, it no longer shows up on the charsheet. Also, the charsheets show the most expensive lifestyle/docwagon contract with time remaining on them.

Just a quick note: If you choose your target level in all categories (say, Low), and you don't pick any extras, the cost comes out the same as a base (non-Companion) lifestyle.

Damien: Engraved datajacks still cost zero Essence. Keep up the good work!

Two great points, thanks Tyro. I may need to put a note on the Lifestyle page explaining how to get a basic lifestyle.

Also, I finally added the .1 essence cost for engraved datajacks. Huzzah for your persistance!

[Tyro]

Good point with the third charsheet. It does not seem to me that the other two have any problems.

Are you remembering to select the # of months the lifestyle has been purchased for? If the lifestyle is used up, it no longer shows up on the charsheet. Also, the charsheets show the most expensive lifestyle/docwagon contract with time remaining on them.



Two great points, thanks Tyro. I may need to put a note on the Lifestyle page explaining how to get a basic lifestyle.

Also, I finally added the .1 essence cost for engraved datajacks. Huzzah for your persistance!

Thanks, DK. I use the sheet a LOT. I don't actually play - never have save for one or two short sessions with no followup, both in 3rd - but I've been building characters as a hobby for years.

[Dakka Dakka]

Fully synthetic limbs, loaded with their maximum armor, without using any bulk capacity enhancements, allows for 19 points of Ballistic/Impact without altering the users appearance. This is more armor than the biggest, thickest, heaviest, most restrictive suit of armor available in all of the shadowrun universe. You are basically saying that under the characters skin, without making a very noticable change to their appearance, they have MORE armor that a HUGE suit of armor. It just does not fit.

They are not shells but full appendages.

With the biggest non-limb-replacement enhancement, the limit is +3/+4. Adding limbs gives you extra damage boxes already. I cannot think that they intended for limbs to break this pattern.

To be fair, you should compare it not to Dermal Sheath alone but to dermal sheath+ Titanium Bone Lacing. This combo confers +3 to Bod for damage resistance tests and +4/+5 armor, additionally the user gets (STR/2+3)P Unarmed damage, all the Cyberlimbs get is (STR/2)P. This is still a lot less than 19 but you don't have to deal with the drawbacks of cyberlimbs.

I just cannot rectify it within the realm of reason. It defies all other examples of balance put forth in the books.

I agree that a character with multiple armored cyberlimbs is a lot tougher than a meatier character, but if you compare such a 'borg to a jarhead in an Ottomo with maxed armor, the difference in toughness and inhumanity isn't that big. The drone and jarhead is more expensive and even tougher.

While NOT averaging the armor of cyberlimbs also is NOT in conflict with the rules laid out for cyberlimb armor, it IS in conflict with the other rules provided.

Which rules are you talking about? Worn armor isn't averaged, magic armor isn't averaged, and non-cyberlimb armor isn't averaged either. In all three cases either the values are added or only the highest value applies.

If you are using cyberlimbs, I highly recommend speaking to your GM about the Cyberlimb Discount Bodyware rule. I believe it is presented in the Augmentation book. Basically it gives a slight discount on price for Bodyware enhancements when you have limbs. This is very important on the sheet if you are getting Dermal Sheathing or Orthoskin, as the sheet calculates them via RAW, which specifies that they do not provide their bonus on cyberlimbs.

So, if you have 3/4 armor from dermal sheathing, and 2 cyberarms, you are probably going to only see +2/3 on your Cyber Armor enhancement, to represent that the sheathing does not cover the arms. If you are suffering that penalty, you should at least not have to pay full price for the sheathing!!

I cannot remember that either rule is in Augmentation. Could you tell me where they are?

[DamienKnight]

They are not shells but full appendages.

But the armor is a shell around the appendage. The point being, a synthetic limb looks just like a normal human arm, but somehow can have more armor than a Heavy Milspec suit? Doesnt mesh.

To be fair, you should compare it not to Dermal Sheath alone but to dermal sheath+ Titanium Bone Lacing. This combo confers +3 to Bod for damage resistance tests and +4/+5 armor, additionally the user gets (STR/2+3)P Unarmed damage, all the Cyberlimbs get is (STR/2)P. This is still a lot less than 19 but you don't have to deal with the drawbacks of cyberlimbs.

Fair enough. +4/+5 w/ added bulky appearance is a far cry from +19/+19 with a body that passes visual inspection.

I agree that a character with multiple armored cyberlimbs is a lot tougher than a meatier character, but if you compare such a 'borg to a jarhead in an Ottomo with maxed armor, the difference in toughness and inhumanity isn't that big. The drone and jarhead is more expensive and even tougher.

???

Which rules are you talking about? Worn armor isn't averaged, magic armor isn't averaged, and non-cyberlimb armor isn't averaged either. In all three cases either the values are added or only the highest value applies.

There is only two other examples of an effect being distributed among limbs. Cyberware attributes and armor outfits. Attributes are averaged. Armor outfits establish that the armor that is on a specific location of the body has a dramatically reduced armor value compared to armor that covers the whole body, and not until all parts of the outfit are worn does the armor value compare to equivalent non-specific armor.

To say that four armor on one arm adds four to the total armor value of a character is like saying that limb has 24 points of armor on it. That is more armor than a TANK is allowed to have. All of that fit into a normal looking human limb... yeeeeah.

I cannot remember that either rule is in Augmentation. Could you tell me where they are?

The optional rule for Cyberlimbs causing a discount to bodyware is an optional rule proposed in 3rd edition, and so has been made available on the sheet as an optional house rule.

I am not sure what other rule you are asking about. Do you mean that you think bodyware enhancements should stack on cyberlimbs... so a character with 4 cyberlimbs and orthoskin would get a stacking of their effects on that limb...?

[Dakka Dakka]

Fair enough. +4/+5 w/ added bulky appearance is a far cry from +19/+19 with a body that passes visual inspection.

A Successful INT+Perception(3) test spots synthetic limbs, and dermal sheath unfortunately seems to be quite obvious. I thought in previous edition it was quite hard to spot as well. But I guess I was mistaken. Orthoskin is invisible though.

???

I wanted to say that someone with four cyberlimbs a cyberskull and a cybertorso is closer to a Jarhead in an Otomo than to a human being with some damage resistant ware. He should rather be compared to the former than the latter. It doesn't mesh well either that a brain+armored machine is way more sturdy than a brain and some organs + armored machine(i.e cyberlimbs).

There is only two other examples of an effect being distributed among limbs. Cyberware attributes and armor outfits. Attributes are averaged. Armor outfits establish that the armor that is on a specific location of the body has a dramatically reduced armor value compared to armor that covers the whole body, and not until all parts of the outfit are worn does the armor value compare to equivalent non-specific armor.

A helmet adds a maximum of +2/+2 to the armor rating, that is exactly what a cyberskull can support, half that for the synthetic skull. Arms and legs are larger than most peoples heads. So this portion will get a higher armor value if it is covered with the same material as the helmet. There are several worn armors that either derive their armor value from the type of material(armor vest, 6/4) and from great coverage (chameleon suit, 6/4)

The optional rule for Cyberlimbs causing a discount to bodyware is an optional rule proposed in 3rd edition, and so has been made available on the sheet as an optional house rule.

OK.

I am not sure what other rule you are asking about. Do you mean that you think bodyware enhancements should stack on cyberlimbs... so a character with 4 cyberlimbs and orthoskin would get a stacking of their effects on that limb...?

I meant the rule that some 'ware provides less of a bonus if some limbs are replaced. Was this part of the SR3 optional rule?

[DamienKnight]

A Successful INT+Perception(3) test spots synthetic limbs, and dermal sheath unfortunately seems to be quite obvious. I thought in previous edition it was quite hard to spot as well. But I guess I was mistaken. Orthoskin is invisible though.

I wanted to say that someone with four cyberlimbs a cyberskull and a cybertorso is closer to a Jarhead in an Otomo than to a human being with some damage resistant ware. He should rather be compared to the former than the latter. It doesn't mesh well either that a brain+armored machine is way more sturdy than a brain and some organs + armored machine(i.e cyberlimbs).

A helmet adds a maximum of +2/+2 to the armor rating, that is exactly what a cyberskull can support, half that for the synthetic skull. Arms and legs are larger than most peoples heads. So this portion will get a higher armor value if it is covered with the same material as the helmet. There are several worn armors that either derive their armor value from the type of material(armor vest, 6/4) and from great coverage (chameleon suit, 6/4)

The key concept here is that more armor via physical means (cyberware, worn armor, vehicle armor, etc) means more bulk. If you max out synthetic limbs without averaging, you have a normal sized person who has armor values close to a tank, which has thousands of pounds of armor. Using this SuperCyberArmor rule, this average looking person who might look a little fake if scrutinized but otherwise has the same size dimensions as an average joe.... that person has MORE armor than a Heavy Milspec suit! It is not reasonable.

Indeed, a 4 cyberlimbed person is more of a machine than someone with dermal sheath 3 and titanium bone lacing. And they get 4 extra hitboxes to represent that.

I meant the rule that some 'ware provides less of a bonus if some limbs are replaced. Was this part of the SR3 optional rule?

No. It is an inference based on-

"Cyberlimbs cannot hold any bioware, nor any cyber-implants that take
up Essence rather than Capacity." - SR4a p.343

If you have 4 limbs, and none of them are allowed to contain your dermal sheathing, then only the dermal sheathing on your head and torso count. The only way to represent that would be to allocate the dermal sheathings full armor rating at a 2/6ths effectiveness.

Otherwise, I could have say a cybertorso, a cyberskull, three full cyberlimbs, and 1 cyber lower left leg. The only non limb replaced portion would be my Left thigh. If I install dermal sheathing (only on that thigh) and bone lacing (again, only on that thigh) should I get the full 4/5 armor bonus, with the body bonus too?

If you do not think so, and think that in that ONE situation that one thigh's worth of armoring should NOT give the same protection as a full body covering of sheathing and lacing, then how would you address it?

Granted this is an extreme example which would require delta grade wares to afford the essence of, but it is a possible scenario that takes the flaw to the extreme. If you would address it in that situation, why would you not address it in a lesser situation, such as a character with just 2 cyberlimbs plus titatium bone lacing and dermal sheathing?

I am not convinced. But, I need not be convinced. The purpose of this thread is to discuss what options could and should go into the sheet. I have already stated that I am going to put the non-averaged option on the sheet. If the only purpose we have is to discuss the merits of averaging, then this discussion needs to be moved to the Cyberlimb armor thread, where both of us have made posts.

I am stalwart in my position. I do not believe my position is only logical interpretation of the rules, I just believe it is the most reasonable one. I believe the NON averaged cyberlimb rule is unreasonable. Unless the book provides an example of stacking armor from each limb without averaging it, I will not post the reasonable option as a 'house rule'. Its a moot point... both options will be available.

I have read the cyberlimb armor thread and was not convinced. Unless you have new information, you are only serving to entertain the two of us, and sharpen our discussion skills, but not furthering the developement of SRCG_DK.

Not wanting to put in the last word, I welcome a final reply from you on this topic. Have your say, then let us be done with it. I will not reply to further debate on armor averaging within this thread. If at a later time you discover a new angle that will surely convince me, please post the new information in the Cyberlimb Armor thread, then post a link here.

Thanks alot for your effort. I respect your knowledge, and feel that you seem to have a genuine interest in showing me the truth. I believe that you would not persist unless you thought I was an open minded intelligent person. I also am confident that you will continue aiding in the development of this sheet by making helpful suggestions that honor the focus of this thread.

[Dakka Dakka]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss what options could and should go into the sheet. I have already stated that I am going to put the non-averaged option on the sheet.

Sorry, I have missed that you are going to put the unaveraged option in.

If the only purpose we have is to discuss the merits of averaging, then this discussion needs to be moved to the Cyberlimb armor thread, where both of us have made posts.

Besides dicussing the merits of averaging my intention was to have the unaveraged option in this sheet I like very much. I will take my opinions to the other thread when I feel like it.

Thanks alot for your effort. I respect your knowledge, and feel that you seem to have a genuine interest in showing me the truth. I believe that you would not persist unless you thought I was an open minded intelligent person.

Thanks.

I also am confident that you will continue aiding in the development of this sheet by making helpful suggestions that honor the focus of this thread.

That is my intention, and I hope I have not discouraged you to continue your work on this great sheet with my contrary opinions.

[Tyro]

I just want to say it's nice to see two people disagreeing amicably - flame wars suck (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Scythe31337]

I opened it in Excel 2007 and got a label in cells not supported error. I searched the thread and looked like I'm not only one with this issue. I tried open office to see if it gave me the same error but it didn't, I had to however enable macros. But the big problem I'm having is the Magic tab. I see a lot of notes(red triangle on the upper right corner of the cell) made like I'm supposed to see labeled columns and other text there but theres nothing but and oddly formated table to the right and down a bit from all the cells. Most of the other Tabs look fine but that one and its in both open office and excel. The last version I had of this was back in 2006 when the original was made. Is this normal?

Ally Spirit tab also shows just says Karma cost and a line and a bunch of notes as well.

[Dumori]

Would you mind keeping an up-to-date attachment on the gwave. as I can't use media
fire from where I get the most free computer time.

[Draco18s]

I am not convinced. But, I need not be convinced. The purpose of this thread is to discuss what options could and should go into the sheet. I have already stated that I am going to put the non-averaged option on the sheet. If the only purpose we have is to discuss the merits of averaging, then this discussion needs to be moved to the Cyberlimb armor thread, where both of us have made posts.

If your goal is to makea sheet for everyone, then you need only one argument:

Some of us believe that not averaging is RAW, therefore it needs to be in the sheet. Labled "house rule" or vice versa is a matter of opinion (yours). You've already added in over 6 other house rules, most of which I'm sure were for the benefit of others and you don't use yourself. If they're YOUR house rules, why did you make them optional and not enforce them on us, like you are with this?