Cyberlimb Armor, ...wait, you wanted it bulletproof? Options

[MikeKozar]

I'm rolling up the next iteration of Unstoppable Prime Runners to wipe out the party with (best time so far: "Invincible" NPCs completely annihilated by round 3.2) and I'm noticing something distressing about personal armor - it's not bulletproof. For instance, the maximum armor on a cyberlimb seems to be 4. Orthoskin and Subdermal Armor both only go to 3. Neither of these is enough to reliably stop even a holdout pistol. Am I missing something here? Why is our high-end personal defense technology not designed to stop bullets?

[Draco18s]

Both of those armor types are cumulative with worn armor (which is designed to stop bullets). 4 cyberlimb armor is even per limb.

[djinni]

Why is our high-end personal defense technology not designed to stop bullets?

you are missing the point of the armor.
NO armor is "bulletPROOF" it deflects the kinetic force of the object that strikes it.
for example early bullet proof vests would not allow the bullet to penetrate the vest, but it still penetrated the person (preventing the round from breaking apart as hollow tips tend to do.)
dragonscale is harder and disperses the force across a wider area which stops sin penetration but still breaks bones bursts blood vessels, etc...
anytime you get a DV result that is below your armor value the armor stopped the bullet
lets see...
4 cyberlimbs (4 points each)
1 cybertorso (4 points)
Form Fitting Body Armor level 3
Lined coat with gel packs
Armor spell (rating 4)
total Armor: 37 ballistic armor
so that means unless you get hit with APDS and DV value 34 the armor was not penetrated

[Draco18s]

Don't forget cyberskull for another 2/2.

[Karoline]

Don't forget cyberskull for another 2/2.

Then slap them into that personal vehicle thing that can have all those attachments, throw full armor on it and a rigger cocoon for another 30ish armor (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Oh, and don't forget the Gravy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Jaid]

Oh, and don't forget the Gravy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

you mean the formfitting body armor?

[Draco18s]

you mean the formfitting body armor?

That's already in.

[Johnny B. Good]

4 cyberlimbs (4 points each)
1 cybertorso (4 points)

Waitaminute, I thought you averaged the rating of the cyberlimb armor, not added it. It doesn't make sense that somebody with two armor 4 cyberlegs should have a "natural" 8 armor.

[Da9iel]

That's the way it works. It's related to the fact that there are no hit locations in Shadowrun, so the armor rating reflects both coverage area and material stiffness. Cyberlimb attributes are averaged, but armor is not an attribute. All cyber armor is cumulative. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Medicineman]

Waitaminute, I thought you averaged the rating of the cyberlimb armor, not added it. It doesn't make sense that somebody with two armor 4 cyberlegs should have a "natural" 8 armor.

Its not averaged (Cyberarmor is not an Attribute) but added with other Cyberarmor and/or worn Armor. But to be Honest the 40+ Points of Armor are ImO only theoretical.
I'm playing a Char with Cybertoro,Arms,Legs,Head(, Eyes & Ears) He's got 11/11
points of Cyberarmor (his Maximum Cyberarmor will be 14/14) with worn Armor 25/20
(ca) so his Maximum might one Day be 28/24 if/when he's Maxed out

with an added Dance
Medicineman

[Stahlseele]

Waitaminute, I thought you averaged the rating of the cyberlimb armor, not added it. It doesn't make sense that somebody with two armor 4 cyberlegs should have a "natural" 8 armor.

The Averaging was in SR3 and contributed hugely to the general Suck that were Cyber-Limbs back then.

[Ascalaphus]

The Averaging was in SR3 and contributed hugely to the general Suck that were Cyber-Limbs back then.

I understand that, but isn't this a bit too much of a good thing?

[Stahlseele]

Considering how much Essence and Money you have to put in there?
No, not at all. Even if you are highly bullet proof, you still get knocked out due to the Damage going into stun, where your condition monitor is usually shorter anyway.
Also, if you take a burst of Stick and shock, you are out cold too. And Gas and Toxins for injection or contact vector still work too.
Basically, Cyber-Limb-Armor is still useless. You can put so much more into those limbs if you don't go for armor.
Stuff that will make you harder to hit for example, or stuff that lets you do crazy shit.

[Medicineman]

I was writing the same as Stahlseele

Hough!
Medizinmann

[Draco18s]

That's the way it works. It's related to the fact that there are no hit locations in Shadowrun, so the armor rating reflects both coverage area and material stiffness. Cyberlimb attributes are averaged, but armor is not an attribute. All cyber armor is cumulative. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Helmet (worn geart) armor value: 2/2
Cyberskull max armor: 2/2

Seems reasonable to me.

[Medicineman]

Helmet (worn geart) armor value: 2/2
Cyberskull max armor: 2/2

Seems reasonable to me.

A helmet is allways + (+0/+1 up to +2/+2 )
It Adds to worn Armor (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

with an added Dance
Medicineman

[overcannon]

Don't forget the heavy Mil-Spec armor with a helmet and Non-Conductivity, Flame Retardant, Thermal Dampening and Ruthenium coating. Suck it Stick-n-Shock.

[MikeKozar]

Considering how much Essence and Money you have to put in there?
No, not at all. Even if you are highly bullet proof, you still get knocked out due to the Damage going into stun, where your condition monitor is usually shorter anyway.
Also, if you take a burst of Stick and shock, you are out cold too. And Gas and Toxins for injection or contact vector still work too.
Basically, Cyber-Limb-Armor is still useless. You can put so much more into those limbs if you don't go for armor.
Stuff that will make you harder to hit for example, or stuff that lets you do crazy shit.

Okay, the armor being cumulative changes things significantly.

It seems pretty awesome to me...I mean, a full-body kit should get you at least 16 armor; The way I do the math, that should reduce incoming damage by 4~5 on a typical soak roll. Stahlseele usually knows what he's talking about, what would be a better use for the 16 capacity?

[Draco18s]

The way I do the math, that should reduce incoming damage by 4~5 on a typical soak roll.

Add in some worn armor for another 2-3 hits, and body for another 1-2, and assume decent Reflexes dropping Net Hits to about 3 (vs. sharpshooter) and you're looking at 6P (medium caliber weapon) + 3 NH = 9P -> 9S (armor value), reduced by 7-9 leaves 0-2 boxes of stun, or about as bad as being hit in the head with a half-brick: it hurts like hell, but it isn't going to slow you down.

Of course, that's 1 bullet. Burst fire will be a bit more painful.

[Medicineman]

Okay, the armor being cumulative changes things significantly.

It seems pretty awesome to me...I mean, a full-body kit should get you at least 16 armor; The way I do the math, that should reduce incoming damage by 4~5 on a typical soak roll. Stahlseele usually knows what he's talking about, what would be a better use for the 16 capacity?

If I may.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Raising Attributes, Built-In Guns as back-up weapons,Nanohives,Schockhand,Cybergyro,JumpJets,
hidden Compartments,your Comlink with DNI,Grapling Gun/Hand (funny in combination with Shock Hand),Skimmer Disk,Raptorlegs with Claws,Magnetic systems

with a lot of useful Dances
Medicineman

[Stahlseele]

If Physical Damage were not made Stun Damage when the power of the incoming attack is less than the armor, going all out for Armor would be much more usefull.
In SR3, Damage never scaled like that. You got Damage and no matter how much armor you had, you had to roll well enough to stage it down to nothing. Else you got physical or stun damage, depending on what kind of damage was coming your way in the first place. OK, with enough Armor, you could get the Target Number to resist Damage down to 2, but if you need twenty 2's to completely resist damage and you only have 10 dice to roll with, you WILL get Damage. Of course, needing 20 hits is the extreme and once in a million case.
And as the crazy dancer said, there's so many fun toys to be had instead of armor ^^
If you get your agility up and some bonus dice for gymnastics and use gymnastic dodge, you can use that to get out of line of fire instead of trying to withstand the damage as good as you can.
Not being hit in the first place is ALLWAYS preferable to being hit and not needing to fear the damage from the hit.

[Mäx]

Okay, the armor being cumulative changes things significantly.

It seems pretty awesome to me...I mean, a full-body kit should get you at least 16 armor; The way I do the math, that should reduce incoming damage by 4~5 on a typical soak roll. Stahlseele usually knows what he's talking about, what would be a better use for the 16 capacity?

Full body kit can get you as much as 22 points of armor, but that is at the cost of 44 points of capasity(2 per point of armour), as of what would be better use for that amount of capasity, as Medicineman listed almost everythink else you can get in to those climbs.
But getting something like 10 points of armor only cost 4 capasity in all limbs+torso and would probaply be worth it, leaving enought capasity for other toys too,while giving nice boost to your total armor.

[Draco18s]

But getting something like 10 points of armor only cost 4 capasity in all limbs+torso and would probaply be worth it, leaving enought capasity for other toys too,while giving nice boost to your total armor.

By which I think you mean you can get it only once instead of other armor mods.

[Jaid]

i understand that to mean "getting some armor is pretty good, but loading up on nothing but armor in your cyberlimbs is an inefficient use of cyberlimb capacity when there are dozens of other cool things you could do instead".

so basically, if you have 10 points of space left in your assorted limbs... go ahead and pick up 5 points of armor. but first make sure you have all the cool toys you want, because they will quite likely allow you to just not even be shot at in the first place due to the extra flexibility in options. someone with 22 points of cyber-armor and no cool toys has one basic option for getting into a facility, and that is charging the front gate. someone with raptor legs and only 20 armor can climb quickly and easily while the guard is looking the other way, jump from building to building, etc, and is not significantly weaker if combat does become necessary. heck, even within combat, there are some really nice options (like a gyromount on your wrist) that could be considered first; basically, being a one-trick pony leaves you with only one "good" option (and it's really easy to make that one option not a very good one). having dozens of tricks means you can do things many different ways, and when you're a 1-man shadowrunning team, is likely to be a lot more valuable than having only one option that you're somewhat better at.

(also, if it comes down to it... seriously, armor up a manservant drone and send *it* to die in a hail of gunfire. it's a whole lot cheaper than spending the money to armor yourself up)

[KarmaInferno]

Considering how much Essence and Money you have to put in there?
No, not at all. Even if you are highly bullet proof, you still get knocked out due to the Damage going into stun, where your condition monitor is usually shorter anyway.
Also, if you take a burst of Stick and shock, you are out cold too. And Gas and Toxins for injection or contact vector still work too.

Well, if you get the armor rating high enough, you'll be able to soak most of any damage that gets past the opposed test.

My main character runs around with 21 armor at most times, with the only visible bit being an armor jacket. He's only got one cyberlimb.

Usually he's throwing twice the value or more in dice of whatever DV got past the opposed test, resulting in little or no damage getting through the resistance test at all.

Also, the nice thing about armor is that you can modify the worn stuff to protect against the special attacks as well. Pretty cheaply, too.

That's assuming anyone's firing at him. He's an infiltration specialist with all the associated skills and toys. Plus 12 dice on the Opposed test without Dodging, before even getting to the resistance test. Just because you have high armor that's all you an do.

Basically, Cyber-Limb-Armor is still useless. You can put so much more into those limbs if you don't go for armor.
Stuff that will make you harder to hit for example, or stuff that lets you do crazy shit.

Thing is, most of the stuff you can shove into a cyberlimb you can get in a non-implanted version.

And even sticking, say, 5 points of armor in a limb leaves plenty of room for a good chunk of of other implanted gear, especially if you get Bulk Modification.

The aforementioned character has BulkMod 4, a few attribute point boosts, an Orientation System, small smuggling compartment, MAD Scanner, Radar Sensor 3, Biomonitor, a datajack, and 5 points of Armor. In one arm.



-karma