I'm rolling up the next iteration of Unstoppable Prime Runners to wipe out the party with (best time so far: "Invincible" NPCs completely annihilated by round 3.2) and I'm noticing something distressing about personal armor - it's not bulletproof. For instance, the maximum armor on a cyberlimb seems to be 4. Orthoskin and Subdermal Armor both only go to 3. Neither of these is enough to reliably stop even a holdout pistol. Am I missing something here? Why is our high-end personal defense technology not designed to stop bullets?

Both of those armor types are cumulative with worn armor (which is designed to stop bullets). 4 cyberlimb armor is even per limb.

you are missing the point of the armor.
NO armor is "bulletPROOF" it deflects the kinetic force of the object that strikes it.
for example early bullet proof vests would not allow the bullet to penetrate the vest, but it still penetrated the person (preventing the round from breaking apart as hollow tips tend to do.)
dragonscale is harder and disperses the force across a wider area which stops sin penetration but still breaks bones bursts blood vessels, etc...
anytime you get a DV result that is below your armor value the armor stopped the bullet
lets see...
4 cyberlimbs (4 points each)
1 cybertorso (4 points)
Form Fitting Body Armor level 3
Lined coat with gel packs
Armor spell (rating 4)
total Armor: 37 ballistic armor
so that means unless you get hit with APDS and DV value 34 the armor was not penetrated

Don't forget cyberskull for another 2/2.

Then slap them into that personal vehicle thing that can have all those attachments, throw full armor on it and a rigger cocoon for another 30ish armor

Oh, and don't forget the Gravy

you mean the formfitting body armor?

That's already in.

Waitaminute, I thought you averaged the rating of the cyberlimb armor, not added it. It doesn't make sense that somebody with two armor 4 cyberlegs should have a "natural" 8 armor.

That's the way it works. It's related to the fact that there are no hit locations in Shadowrun, so the armor rating reflects both coverage area and material stiffness. Cyberlimb attributes are averaged, but armor is not an attribute. All cyber armor is cumulative.

Its not averaged (Cyberarmor is not an Attribute) but added with other Cyberarmor and/or worn Armor. But to be Honest the 40+ Points of Armor are ImO only theoretical.
I'm playing a Char with Cybertoro,Arms,Legs,Head(, Eyes & Ears) He's got 11/11
points of Cyberarmor (his Maximum Cyberarmor will be 14/14) with worn Armor 25/20
(ca) so his Maximum might one Day be 28/24 if/when he's Maxed out

with an added Dance
Medicineman

The Averaging was in SR3 and contributed hugely to the general Suck that were Cyber-Limbs back then.

I understand that, but isn't this a bit too much of a good thing?

Considering how much Essence and Money you have to put in there?
No, not at all. Even if you are highly bullet proof, you still get knocked out due to the Damage going into stun, where your condition monitor is usually shorter anyway.
Also, if you take a burst of Stick and shock, you are out cold too. And Gas and Toxins for injection or contact vector still work too.
Basically, Cyber-Limb-Armor is still useless. You can put so much more into those limbs if you don't go for armor.
Stuff that will make you harder to hit for example, or stuff that lets you do crazy shit.

I was writing the same as Stahlseele

Hough!
Medizinmann

Helmet (worn geart) armor value: 2/2
Cyberskull max armor: 2/2

Seems reasonable to me.

A helmet is allways + (+0/+1 up to +2/+2 )
It Adds to worn Armor

with an added Dance
Medicineman

Don't forget the heavy Mil-Spec armor with a helmet and Non-Conductivity, Flame Retardant, Thermal Dampening and Ruthenium coating. Suck it Stick-n-Shock.

Okay, the armor being cumulative changes things significantly.

It seems pretty awesome to me...I mean, a full-body kit should get you at least 16 armor; The way I do the math, that should reduce incoming damage by 4~5 on a typical soak roll. Stahlseele usually knows what he's talking about, what would be a better use for the 16 capacity?

Add in some worn armor for another 2-3 hits, and body for another 1-2, and assume decent Reflexes dropping Net Hits to about 3 (vs. sharpshooter) and you're looking at 6P (medium caliber weapon) + 3 NH = 9P -> 9S (armor value), reduced by 7-9 leaves 0-2 boxes of stun, or about as bad as being hit in the head with a half-brick: it hurts like hell, but it isn't going to slow you down.

Of course, that's 1 bullet. Burst fire will be a bit more painful.

If I may....
Raising Attributes, Built-In Guns as back-up weapons,Nanohives,Schockhand,Cybergyro,JumpJets,
hidden Compartments,your Comlink with DNI,Grapling Gun/Hand (funny in combination with Shock Hand),Skimmer Disk,Raptorlegs with Claws,Magnetic systems

with a lot of useful Dances
Medicineman

If Physical Damage were not made Stun Damage when the power of the incoming attack is less than the armor, going all out for Armor would be much more usefull.
In SR3, Damage never scaled like that. You got Damage and no matter how much armor you had, you had to roll well enough to stage it down to nothing. Else you got physical or stun damage, depending on what kind of damage was coming your way in the first place. OK, with enough Armor, you could get the Target Number to resist Damage down to 2, but if you need twenty 2's to completely resist damage and you only have 10 dice to roll with, you WILL get Damage. Of course, needing 20 hits is the extreme and once in a million case.
And as the crazy dancer said, there's so many fun toys to be had instead of armor ^^
If you get your agility up and some bonus dice for gymnastics and use gymnastic dodge, you can use that to get out of line of fire instead of trying to withstand the damage as good as you can.
Not being hit in the first place is ALLWAYS preferable to being hit and not needing to fear the damage from the hit.

Full body kit can get you as much as 22 points of armor, but that is at the cost of 44 points of capasity(2 per point of armour), as of what would be better use for that amount of capasity, as Medicineman listed almost everythink else you can get in to those climbs.
But getting something like 10 points of armor only cost 4 capasity in all limbs+torso and would probaply be worth it, leaving enought capasity for other toys too,while giving nice boost to your total armor.

By which I think you mean you can get it only once instead of other armor mods.

i understand that to mean "getting some armor is pretty good, but loading up on nothing but armor in your cyberlimbs is an inefficient use of cyberlimb capacity when there are dozens of other cool things you could do instead".

so basically, if you have 10 points of space left in your assorted limbs... go ahead and pick up 5 points of armor. but first make sure you have all the cool toys you want, because they will quite likely allow you to just not even be shot at in the first place due to the extra flexibility in options. someone with 22 points of cyber-armor and no cool toys has one basic option for getting into a facility, and that is charging the front gate. someone with raptor legs and only 20 armor can climb quickly and easily while the guard is looking the other way, jump from building to building, etc, and is not significantly weaker if combat does become necessary. heck, even within combat, there are some really nice options (like a gyromount on your wrist) that could be considered first; basically, being a one-trick pony leaves you with only one "good" option (and it's really easy to make that one option not a very good one). having dozens of tricks means you can do things many different ways, and when you're a 1-man shadowrunning team, is likely to be a lot more valuable than having only one option that you're somewhat better at.

(also, if it comes down to it... seriously, armor up a manservant drone and send *it* to die in a hail of gunfire. it's a whole lot cheaper than spending the money to armor yourself up)

Well, if you get the armor rating high enough, you'll be able to soak most of any damage that gets past the opposed test.

My main character runs around with 21 armor at most times, with the only visible bit being an armor jacket. He's only got one cyberlimb.

Usually he's throwing twice the value or more in dice of whatever DV got past the opposed test, resulting in little or no damage getting through the resistance test at all.

Also, the nice thing about armor is that you can modify the worn stuff to protect against the special attacks as well. Pretty cheaply, too.

That's assuming anyone's firing at him. He's an infiltration specialist with all the associated skills and toys. Plus 12 dice on the Opposed test without Dodging, before even getting to the resistance test. Just because you have high armor that's all you an do.



Thing is, most of the stuff you can shove into a cyberlimb you can get in a non-implanted version.

And even sticking, say, 5 points of armor in a limb leaves plenty of room for a good chunk of of other implanted gear, especially if you get Bulk Modification.

The aforementioned character has BulkMod 4, a few attribute point boosts, an Orientation System, small smuggling compartment, MAD Scanner, Radar Sensor 3, Biomonitor, a datajack, and 5 points of Armor. In one arm.



-karma

I just want to pop in and point out that cyber limb armor only goes up to 4 per limb, and at standard character creation a person can only reach 2 armor per limb without the restricted gear quality.

Armor only goes up to 4 and with everything else in that arm you have no capasity left for any atribute boost.

Ah, doubling capacity. I missed that as well. That balances the power of this back down into the reasonable - I was planning on a Capacity 10 Synthetic Lower Leg with Armor-4 and six more points to play with. Cutting it down to 2? That's brutal. Thanks for the help, everybody.

Yeah, sorry, 4 armor.

And it was Customized Limb for the attr boosts, not Enhancements. I was mostly trying to match my character's existing attributes.

I look at cyberarmor this way:

There are stats that have limited means of being boosted. Armor is one of them. The mundane stackable means of boosting Armor are one worn suit, Form Fitting armor, a few worn add-ons like helmets and pads, and Cyber Armor.

Of these, cyber armor cannot be installed in anything but a cyberlimb. Most other cyberlimb equipment can be obtained in a non-implant form, so the first thing I consider for what to install is what CANNOT go anywhere else.

That's mostly just attribute boosts and Cyber Armor.

I don't go for attribute boost that much beyond Customizing limbs to match the meat body's attributes, due to the averaging effect. Too much resources for too little net benefit.

Armor, however, by RAW isn't an attribute and as such isn't averaged. Plus it adds to a stat that has limited means to be improved.


-karma

Just a show of (cyber)hands here: How many people allow a single customised/enhanced Cyberarm at Agility 9 to be used without averaging for firearm tests? The sourcebook isn't explicit about whether shooting a pistol is a full-body action that is averaged, so I imagine there's some controversy about it.

A Pistol is one handed/one-Armed.
Anything with a foregrip is USUALLY used two handed.
But as long as you use it one handed, no averaging.

Even two handed it would only be using those two limbs. Legs are not involved (can you shoot why lying down or sitting? Yes. Legs not required).

Except anyone who's actually shot a firearm will tell you it's a whole body activity, even for a handgun.

How you stand, your breathing rate, how you brace the weapon with your off hand, etc.

All affect your aim.

Hell, even your heartbeat can make you miss.

You might be able to isolate one arm for firing with a benchrest at a firing range, but not in a firefight in the field.


-np

Yeah, I agree that in Real Life it's a whole body activity. However, cyberlimbs should have a few advantages over meatpaws when it comes to shooting. As you pointed out, heartbeats are sometimes cited as interfering with accuracy (generally on those 'impossible' shots) which is a problem that cyberlimbs get around by virtue of not having pulsing liquids in them. I generally Customise the limb to 6 and Enhance it to 9 - somewhere in that 5,250Y I would hope is some engineering to ensure a steady firing platform. If you assume a smartgun system linked to the hand, it is reasonable to assume some autocorrecting is possible, perhaps explaining the superhuman accuracy of a top-end cyberlimb.

Using synthetic limbs:
16 armor max total for 4 limbs
2 armor on torso
1 armor on skull
Total of 19 armor, without dramatically altering the characters appearance.

Does anyone see a balance issue here? Allowing the armor to not be averaged means that a character could have MORE armor with hidden cyberlimb armor than they would get with Heavy Military Grade armor and a Military Grade helmet. All that, and they can pass visual inspection.

Consider this: The heaviest possible dermal sheath, which covers the entire body, only confers a +3/+4 armor value.

Cyberlimbs are already adding to characters hitboxes, giving them options for amazing attributes, and allowing them to do physical damage in melee. Are they underpowered, and in need of 19 or 22 points of armor in order to be useful?

Does anyone see a balance issue here?
No Issue at all
240.000 ¥ & 5.0 Essence Points Balance it out !

with a balanced Dance
Medicineman

Yes. ^^

Contrary to MilSpec Armor, Cyberlimb Armor is not Hardened. Every damaging attack has to be soaked completely. There will be unlucky rolls sooner or later.

There are also several attacks that ignore armor (toxins, direct combat spells, etc.) or don't do damage and thus are not resisted by armor (Illusion spells, Manipulation Spells, hacking sensors etc.).

Confrontation in SR is an avanced form of Rock-Paper-Scissors, nobody has the resources to defend against everything. If someone uses most of his resources(as Medicineman pointed out earlier) to be good at soaking physical damage, so what?

Dermal Sheath is a thin layer of energy resisting fabric. Cyberlimbs are fully synthetic maybe metallic constructs which may have a thin coating of synthflesh. Don't you see that in a cyberlimb there is a lot more room to fit materials that slow bullets before they reach relevant parts?

Those are only hit boxes for Physical Damage. High armor values will most likely convert damage to Stun. Amazing attributes are more easily achieved with other augmentations. Characters with cyberlimbs may only do Stun damage in Unarmed Combat via subdual. Oh an not to forget they set off MADs pretty good.
This makes them viable as they provide something that is not available through other means at a lower cost. Was it a yes to this question, Stahlseele?

@Using pistols with one arm: That this is a possibility is largely due to the fact that the example for Unarmed combat in the description of cyberlimbs contradicts the previous rule. Unarmed Combat is a full body action but the example states that the STR of a single Cyberlimb is used to determine damage. If however you would strictly adhere to this rule, single cyberlimbs would be mostly useless unless the rest of the body is augmented as well, since most actions require the use of more than one limb. Even full borgs (2 Legs, 2 Arms) still have a problem, because either they need to augment their meat of torso and head, or need to get cyberlimb enhancement for those parts as well, which don't fit.

What's more straining to my suspense of disbelief than large amounts of armor, is the fact that a shot up Joe Average (all Attributes at 3 and no 'ware) recovers in the same way as Carl Cybaverage (Full set of unenhanced uncustomized Cyberlimbs and natural Attributes of 3), needing no medical care or maintenance.

Nanites.
*Shifty eyes*

I thought about them as well, but what feeds the nanohive and provides the material that may have been removed due to damage?

Uh.. uh..

Magic!

Yes, that's it. Magic.

Nooooo, not magic! Cyberlimbs are made out of the mystical element of Handwavium

If someone uses most of his resources(as Medicineman pointed out earlier) to be good at soaking physical damage, so what?
The 240.000 and 5.0 Essence are for the Raw Cyberbody (in Alpha synthethic Skull,Torso,2Arms & 2 Legs)
Neither Batteries nor Armor included

Dance included
Medicineman

Plug In overnight for energy, for Material ....if you really want to "Hartwurst" it(calculate in minicule detail ) add 1% more Lifestylecost for Raw Material

with a Hartwurstdance
Medicineman

As I hinted above I can handwave it, if necessary. It's just one of those little inconsistencies.