Question: Astral Combat, not sure about something... or anything for that matter. Options

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

After playing a while, I've never had to use astral combat. Everybody in the groups I've played with have been either mages who cast spells on the astral plane, or mystic adepts who have just physically attacked astral entities with either foci or killing hands. In my game, I have a character that actually engaged another mage in astral combat and the whole thing felt pretty shaky (especially on my end where I wasn't even sure if I was doing it right).

I think according to the book, there are 3 different possibilities of combat, astral form vs. astral form, astral form vs. dual natured (perceiving) being, and dual-natured vs. dual natured, right?

First, Astral form vs. astral form (astral spirits, and projecting magicians)
Attacker rolls logic + Astral Combat + Weapon Focus (if using one) vs the defenders Intuition + Astral Combat. The reason for the logic is because IIRC the book says you use your corresponding mental attribute to relate to what the physical attribute you would use during normal melee combat, and astral combat is resolved in the same manner. Likewise with the intuition, because the defender would be rolling (normally) reaction + dodge (or unarmed to block/blades to parry), but instead rolls the mental equivalent of of that which is Intuition. If the attacker wins the test, damage is given as straight Charisma/2 + net hits. Is there any damage resistance test or is it just straight taken off the loser's damage track/ condition monitor?

Second, Dual Natured vs Dual Natured
this one is just like normal combat. Since the entities are still in their corporeal forms, the attack and defend with their physical attributes and skills. ie: the martial arts adept attacks with Agility + Unarmed vs the other astral perceiving adepts reaction + clubs (to parry) + weapon focus (yay weapon foci!). if the attacker wins though, here is where I get confused. strength determines the damage done, but since attacking through the astral plane (with your body in tow), is the damage given to your opponent resisted by body and armor?

Third, Dual Naturded vs astral form
according to the RAW, IIRC the attack isn't made with physical attributes at all and is instead a Willpower + astral combat attack? So the dual natured martial arts adept doesn't use his flash kung fu and killing hands skills to attack the spirit, he uses his mind and charisma even though he is still in his body?

Come to think of it, under the weapon focus passage it mentions a weapon focus can be taken with and used, but used with the attack Willpower + Astral Combat. Does that mean you don't relate the corresponding physical and mental attributes and just us Willpower + Astral combat for everything? Do you defend with Willpower + Astral Combat too?

Help Plz!

[Ol' Scratch]

Adepts (or anyone else) still need Astral Combat to fight a purely astral entity. Their physical combat skills are useless for doing so in the SR4 rules, Weapon Focus or not. They also have to use their mental attributes when doing so. It's on SR4 p. 184.

So, basically, it doesn't matter what form you're in. It's what you're fighting. If they have a physical body (Dual-Natured, Manifested, etc.) you use your physical skills and abilities. If they're purely astral, Astral Combat and mental attributes. Weapon Foci work in both forms and you can take a specialization in Astral Combat for a specific group of weapon foci.

[TheOOB]

Magicians usually prefer to stick to manabolt for astral combat, it's cheep, it's effective, and it doesn't need a skill that a magician wouldn't already have. That said, astral combat does have it's uses. Adepts and other beings who can't use sorcery must use it to attack astral forms, and even a magician who fights in astral a lot will most likely want it. Keep in mind your weapon foci function just fine in the astral plane, so with a nice magical sword you can be doing just as much if not more damage in astral combat without having to worry about drain or astral signatures.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

So, let me get this right then.

The adept who is astrally perceiving fighting the other adept doing the same follows just a normal fight and they actually have damage resistance because they are physical attacks on physical bodies and they both are stupid for fighting in the astral because they get a -2 to perception tests and would be better off using natural vision.

the adept who is astrally perceiving fighting the spirit who is entirely astral would roll Willpower + Astral Combat (+ weapon focus if applicable) against the spirit's Intuition + Astral combat. The adept looks really silly swinging and punching at thin air, but through sheer force of will damages the spirit on the astral plane and the spirit takes charisma/2 (or weapon focus damage) without resistance.

The projecting magician dueling another magician rolls logic + Astral Combat ( again + weapon focus if applicable) against the other magician's intuition + Astral combat. The first magician wins because he brought a magic sword (a no-dachi for a +2 reach on top of being a badass focus) to the fight and trounces the other magician, who takes an unresisted weapon DV equal to charisma/2+ (whatever a no-dachi's bonus DV is).

This feels a bit more solid in gameplay than what I was wondering in the beginning. Thanks guys. Also brings up the absurdly hilarious idea of magicians and adepts carrying around weapon foci that they can't wield in normal combat because they lack the skill and training, but can use when fighting astral entities with deadly efficiency.

"hey guys, watch me hack this spirit in half with this sword I can't even pick up!"

[TheOOB]

So, let me get this right then.

The adept who is astrally perceiving fighting the other adept doing the same follows just a normal fight and they actually have damage resistance because they are physical attacks on physical bodies and they both are stupid for fighting in the astral because they get a -2 to perception tests and would be better off using natural vision.

the adept who is astrally perceiving fighting the spirit who is entirely astral would roll Willpower + Astral Combat (+ weapon focus if applicable) against the spirit's Intuition + Astral combat. The adept looks really silly swinging and punching at thin air, but through sheer force of will damages the spirit on the astral plane and the spirit takes charisma/2 (or weapon focus damage) without resistance.

The projecting magician dueling another magician rolls logic + Astral Combat ( again + weapon focus if applicable) against the other magician's intuition + Astral combat. The first magician wins because he brought a magic sword (a no-dachi for a +2 reach on top of being a badass focus) to the fight and trounces the other magician, who takes an unresisted weapon DV equal to charisma/2+ (whatever a no-dachi's bonus DV is).

This feels a bit more solid in gameplay than what I was wondering in the beginning. Thanks guys. Also brings up the absurdly hilarious idea of magicians and adepts carrying around weapon foci that they can't wield in normal combat because they lack the skill and training, but can use when fighting astral entities with deadly efficiency.

"hey guys, watch me hack this spirit in half with this sword I can't even pick up!"

If two adepts are astraly perceiving they can be attacked with either physical or astral attacks, which might give a more social adept the edge over a more physical one. As soon as you use astral perception you become dual natured and thus become vulnerable to attacks from two planes, it's a risky gambit but oftentimes worth it.

Otherwise you got things pretty much right. Weapon foci are essential for being good in astral combat, just as you don't usually want to fight unarmed in physical, being unarmed in astral isn't safe either(unless you are an adept built for those things, natch), and just as a hacker can be clumsy and slow in the meat but fast and skilled in the matrix, a magician can be inept at combat with a real sword but deadly with it's astral form.

[ornot]

I'm pretty sure that the type of weapon focus is unrelated to the damage bonus, which is governed by the weapon foci's force. Thus in astral combat a force 4 butter knife weapon foci provides a greater damage bonus than a force 2 no dachi. I'm pretty sure that reach bonuses don't apply in the astral, although I could be wrong.

As for a dual natured form attacking an astral form, it's not the greatest plan, since the astral form gets to use astral initiative and astral movement rates, while the dual natured adept is tied to their physical initiative and movement rate. If the astral form has any form of ranged attack (for example, spell casting) they can float out of range of the adept and hurl magicy bolts of doom at them.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

I looked at Aaron's rules cheat sheets, and that's where I got the confirmation that reach carries into the astral. You mystic blade of longer length would provide you with the reach bonus across the astral as well. Since he's a dev, I'll trust that he's right on the matter. Also, by the book, under the weapon focus description it says that the weapons damage is the same on the astral plane as in the physical plane. I'd say that's good indication of taking into account the blades bonus DV.

So how would 2 adepts using astral perception play out then? The attacker (while in physical combat) with the other chooses to attack the astral form of his dual natured opponent. He rolls willpower + astral combat (because he's attacking an astral form), but looks really sissy because in the meat world, because his body is still tied to his astral form, and as he does as really flamboyant display of willful power, his teammates laugh at the drama. The defender rolls intuition + astral combat to create an equally silly real world display as he reacts to the attacker. The attacker wins the test and the defender takes charisma/2 damage to his stun track.

See, I think we're missing damage resistance on the side of the defender. Why else would there be an equivalent body attribute on the astral? Shouldn't willpower be rolled as a damage resistance test to soak some of that nasty astral combat damage? Wouldn't mystic armor also apply? It says it does in the book under its description, so there has to be a damage resistance test that I'm missing, right?

[TheOOB]

Look at page 184 of the core rule book on the table. For the magician attack it lists damage as Charisma/2 round up, and for magician with weapon focus they list the damage as by weapon type, which means you do use the weapons damage as listed(though since charisma replaces your strength while astral you use your charisma for damage).

I'm not sure if a dual natured being uses cha for str for damage though.

[Ol' Scratch]

In the end, Astral Combat as a skill is really only in 4th Edition as a legacy skill. It doesn't make much sense the way it's presented (being the universal kick-ass skill that works equally well with unarmed attacks, swords, maces, staves, or monofilament whips). Astral combat appears to be identical to melee combat in every way except the change of stats, regardless of how goofy that is. Especially when dealing with dual-natured beings (including astrally-perceiving adepts and mages). At best Astral Combat should have just been a specialization available to normal melee skills much the way Remote-Control is a specialization for vehicle skills, with the only change being... exactly the same. Namely, the use of different attributes for determining the outcome. And even that's a stretch for dual-natured fighters who, obviously, still have to hit you with their physical weapon.

But we're stuck with it, so... c'est la vie.

[Mithral MAge]

I looked at Aaron's rules cheat sheets...

These are where?

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

They are on his shadowrun resource site.

http://pavao.org/shadowrun/index.html

@funk: there's no need to hound whether or not this skill is worthless in gameplay, or its parallels to unarmed combat. In its form it functions just fine to make a mage or shaman beastly when they astrally project and combat other astral entities. That said mage or shaman might not know a thing about real life unarmed combat, and that makes a lot of sense to me. Likewise the other way. Those skilled at meat body unarmed combat could be completely inept at astral combat because although they know application of force and power, these things don't matter at all on the astral. It would be an impressive display of combat prowess to attack an astral entity with force and strength while dual natured, but more or less fool hearty unless the character knows how to apply that spiritual/mana based combat attack.

That being said, you've said your opinion, and I've stated mine. It's very unlikely that we'll change our minds whatever the examples we lay down. Being that this is a fictional game, nobody can really site FACT to back up their argument. We have no need to nag back and forth like we've done on other threads.

Still, can anybody clarify if there is a damage resistance test? Under Mystic Armor, it more or less suggests there is one. Also on p 184, It mentions how astral combat is handled like any normal melee combat, so there should be a damage resistance test where body is turned into willpower, right?

[Ol' Scratch]

@funk: there's no need to hound whether or not this skill is worthless in gameplay, or its parallels to unarmed combat. In its form it functions just fine to make a mage or shaman beastly when they astrally project and combat other astral entities. That said mage or shaman might not know a thing about real life unarmed combat, and that makes a lot of sense to me. Likewise the other way. Those skilled at meat body unarmed combat could be completely inept at astral combat because although they know application of force and power, these things don't matter at all on the astral. It would be an impressive display of combat prowess to attack an astral entity with force and strength while dual natured, but more or less fool hearty unless the character knows how to apply that spiritual/mana based combat attack.

That's why you use your mental attributes on the astral plane and your physical on the real world. With the way astral combat works in 4th edition, you're using exactly the same swings, maneuvers, and techniques when fighting an astral entity as you do with physical opponents. The same reach. The same weapon damage. The same martial arts maneuvers. Everything. But, for some reason, it requires a completely different skill for no apparent reason. And even worse, that one single skill covers every melee fighting style known to man. But only on the astral. For some reason. If you're a scrawny little elven mage who can barely cut a piece of wet paper with a knife in the physical realm, when you swing that same knife focus on the astral plane it's suddenly doing a phenomenal amount of damage to astral entities due solely to your overwhelming Charisma. But you're still swinging that knife like you would in the real world. Yet... for no good reason... a completely different skill.

In previous editions it worked on a different principle. You literally were attacking with your force of will. You could just stand there and make an angry face as you fought if you were so inclined. You also had the option of using an Astral Combat skill for doing so or the appropriate melee skill if you were so inclined (and wanted to use a weapon focus). With the way they changed astral combat in 4th Edition, having an Astral Combat skill makes little to no sense precisely because they changed it so that you still have to (meta-)physically attack your target just like you would in the physical world.

That being said, you've said your opinion, and I've stated mine. It's very unlikely that we'll change our minds whatever the examples we lay down. Being that this is a fictional game, nobody can really site FACT to back up their argument. We have no need to nag back and forth like we've done on other threads.

Probably because I wasn't citing FACT in my previous post. It was pretty fucking clear I was just stating my OPINION on the subject. God fucking forbid. In fact my first post in this thread told you exactly how it works in SR4. That said, you're the only one who brought anything up from anywhere here (nevermind that I don't even have a clue what you're whining on about with any of this). So, in other words, piss off.

Still, can anybody clarify if there is a damage resistance test? Under Mystic Armor, it more or less suggests there is one. Also on p 184, It mentions how astral combat is handled like any normal melee combat, so there should be a damage resistance test where body is turned into willpower, right?

Except for the differences mentioned in the tiny little section of the Magic chapter, it works just like melee combat. Much like you, yourself, just said. Or is "handled like any normal melee combat" really that hard to comprehend?

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

And I wasn't telling you that your opinion was wrong, just that mine was different. Being that you not only decided to repeat your opinion with more gusto, but especially after I had explained I understood it was your opinion, you then throw more personal attacks at me and try to get the last word in to prove victory. On top of the vuglar display of language and insinuated anger, you then tell me to "piss off" and insult my ability to comprehend things.

I'd say that an admin needs to step in and do something about Funk. If not a banning, at least a suspension.

[Ol' Scratch]

If you don't want people telling you to piss off, maybe you should stop starting things by telling them they're nagging, not founded by "FACT," and otherwise acting like a dick yourself. Especially when you're only whining about some imaginary battle of epic proportions that only exists in your head.

[Fortune]

I'd say that an admin needs to step in and do something about Funk. If not a banning, at least a suspension.

Backseat Moderation is also frowned upon by the Powers-That-Be, but I've noticed a fair amount of that kind of thing going on over the past few days, both from yourself and several others.

Please do not try to do the job of the forum staff. If you have an issue that you would like to see addressed, PM a moderator and we will take a look at the situation.

This includes such actions as telling people what to post or not post, asking people to leave or stop posting, or telling someone that you are reporting them to forum staff, among other things.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

I'll keep that in mind.

[The Monk]

OK, now that all that is over, does anyone have any idea how to make Astral Combat more usefull. Any house rules?

[Ravor]

Personally I like the old rule about all drain being Physical while on the Astral, that and allowing people in Astral Combat to just stare at each other.

But then again I've never liked the idea that you could use mundane weapon skills to fight something in the Astral.

[The Monk]

Personally I like the old rule about all drain being Physical while on the Astral, that and allowing people in Astral Combat to just stare at each other.

But then again I've never liked the idea that you could use mundane weapon skills to fight something in the Astral.

I picture of two spiritual masters meeting at a bridge, they stare at each other and after a few moments one gives way to the other defeated.

[Ravor]

Yeah, only with the addition that one falls over dead from his brain turning into mush. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

Well, who's to say that a master of Astral Combat wouldn't just stand there as he astrally perceives and stares down his opponent? I mean, if it is an astral form he's attacking, it's with Willpower + Astral Combat, so there's no definite description saying that the stare of death doesn't happen. Imagine if you will, the adept and the magician meeting on a bridge, and facing off. They both go astral to assence their opponent and they feel they can take each other. The adept goes first and attacks because his initiative is higher and really hits the magician, making him stumble backwards, but the magician grabs the ropes of the bridge and whips his head around to give this death stare at the adept that knocks him flat on his ass. The adept knows he obviously shouldn't have picked this fight and backs off. In RL we see nothing actually hit the adept, but on the astral, the magicians astral form unleashes an attack that punches the adept right in the face. Or am I getting this all wrong and very literally, your astral form is COMPLETELY tied to your body when you are dual natured? Would this be better left as a spell cast on the adept?

[Ol' Scratch]

OK, now that all that is over, does anyone have any idea how to make Astral Combat more usefull. Any house rules?

There's really no easy way to resolve it without completely retooling the astral combat rules in SR4. My house rule, as mentioned earlier, is that Astral Combat is no longer a skill but a specialization available to melee skills. Blades (Astral Combat), for instance, instead of Astral Combat (Blades). Not only does it help magicians out a bit by shaving down the number of skills they may or may not need to get, but it still allows them to suck in physical combat while excelling in astral combat since the latter still uses their mental attributes. Thus the Elven Mage with Str 2 and Cha 8 and Unarmed Combat (Astral Combat) 3 will do next to no damage when sucker punching a random security guard, but throw him into an astral fight and he's suddenly got a combat skill of 5 and a virtual Strength of 8.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that in my version of said rules, that would be the only specialization allowed in astral combat, thereby reflecting the awkwardness of using melee weapons in astral combat for those who are unfamiliar and untrained in such things... but still not requiring them to learn a whole new skill in order to use their weapon essentially the exact same way as they normally do, only with different attributes.

Well, who's to say that a master of Astral Combat wouldn't just stand there as he astrally perceives and stares down his opponent?

Because that's not what SR4's rules for astral combat entails. You still fight the opponent just as you would if they were physical (hence the use of Reach, Damage Values, Armor Penetration and everything else). You just use your mental stats and Astral Combat in place of your ordinary melee skills. Unless, of course, you let people just stand there squinting in physical melee combat, too.

[The Monk]

EDIT: Forgot to mention that in my version of said rules, that would be the only specialization allowed in astral combat, thereby reflecting the awkwardness of using melee weapons in astral combat for those who are unfamiliar and untrained in such things... but still not requiring them to learn a whole new skill in order to use their weapon essentially the exact same way as they normally do, only with different attributes.

Would you allow someone without the specialization Astral Combat to still use that weapon against a fully astral being if the Adept was able to Astrally Percieve?

For example the adept is astrally percieving has a weapon focus but does not have the astral combat specialization, he can still fight the fully astral spirit.

[Ol' Scratch]

Sure would. The restriction you listed basically negates any other specialization the character may have. So if they have Blades (Swords) 3, for example, they'd only get 3 dice while fighting astral beings rather than their usual 5. They may be a pro when using a sword in the meat world, but it's just awkward enough on the astral to negate that bonus. General knowledge and skill isn't being penalized, however, since that's the entire point of a general skill versus a specialization.

[The Monk]

Would you allow dodge skill to be used in astral? Hmm, are there any indirect mana spells?