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TKDNinjaInBlack
After playing a while, I've never had to use astral combat. Everybody in the groups I've played with have been either mages who cast spells on the astral plane, or mystic adepts who have just physically attacked astral entities with either foci or killing hands. In my game, I have a character that actually engaged another mage in astral combat and the whole thing felt pretty shaky (especially on my end where I wasn't even sure if I was doing it right).

I think according to the book, there are 3 different possibilities of combat, astral form vs. astral form, astral form vs. dual natured (perceiving) being, and dual-natured vs. dual natured, right?

First, Astral form vs. astral form (astral spirits, and projecting magicians)
Attacker rolls logic + Astral Combat + Weapon Focus (if using one) vs the defenders Intuition + Astral Combat. The reason for the logic is because IIRC the book says you use your corresponding mental attribute to relate to what the physical attribute you would use during normal melee combat, and astral combat is resolved in the same manner. Likewise with the intuition, because the defender would be rolling (normally) reaction + dodge (or unarmed to block/blades to parry), but instead rolls the mental equivalent of of that which is Intuition. If the attacker wins the test, damage is given as straight Charisma/2 + net hits. Is there any damage resistance test or is it just straight taken off the loser's damage track/ condition monitor?

Second, Dual Natured vs Dual Natured
this one is just like normal combat. Since the entities are still in their corporeal forms, the attack and defend with their physical attributes and skills. ie: the martial arts adept attacks with Agility + Unarmed vs the other astral perceiving adepts reaction + clubs (to parry) + weapon focus (yay weapon foci!). if the attacker wins though, here is where I get confused. strength determines the damage done, but since attacking through the astral plane (with your body in tow), is the damage given to your opponent resisted by body and armor?

Third, Dual Naturded vs astral form
according to the RAW, IIRC the attack isn't made with physical attributes at all and is instead a Willpower + astral combat attack? So the dual natured martial arts adept doesn't use his flash kung fu and killing hands skills to attack the spirit, he uses his mind and charisma even though he is still in his body?

Come to think of it, under the weapon focus passage it mentions a weapon focus can be taken with and used, but used with the attack Willpower + Astral Combat. Does that mean you don't relate the corresponding physical and mental attributes and just us Willpower + Astral combat for everything? Do you defend with Willpower + Astral Combat too?

Help Plz!
Ol' Scratch
Adepts (or anyone else) still need Astral Combat to fight a purely astral entity. Their physical combat skills are useless for doing so in the SR4 rules, Weapon Focus or not. They also have to use their mental attributes when doing so. It's on SR4 p. 184.

So, basically, it doesn't matter what form you're in. It's what you're fighting. If they have a physical body (Dual-Natured, Manifested, etc.) you use your physical skills and abilities. If they're purely astral, Astral Combat and mental attributes. Weapon Foci work in both forms and you can take a specialization in Astral Combat for a specific group of weapon foci.
TheOOB
Magicians usually prefer to stick to manabolt for astral combat, it's cheep, it's effective, and it doesn't need a skill that a magician wouldn't already have. That said, astral combat does have it's uses. Adepts and other beings who can't use sorcery must use it to attack astral forms, and even a magician who fights in astral a lot will most likely want it. Keep in mind your weapon foci function just fine in the astral plane, so with a nice magical sword you can be doing just as much if not more damage in astral combat without having to worry about drain or astral signatures.
TKDNinjaInBlack
So, let me get this right then.

The adept who is astrally perceiving fighting the other adept doing the same follows just a normal fight and they actually have damage resistance because they are physical attacks on physical bodies and they both are stupid for fighting in the astral because they get a -2 to perception tests and would be better off using natural vision.

the adept who is astrally perceiving fighting the spirit who is entirely astral would roll Willpower + Astral Combat (+ weapon focus if applicable) against the spirit's Intuition + Astral combat. The adept looks really silly swinging and punching at thin air, but through sheer force of will damages the spirit on the astral plane and the spirit takes charisma/2 (or weapon focus damage) without resistance.

The projecting magician dueling another magician rolls logic + Astral Combat ( again + weapon focus if applicable) against the other magician's intuition + Astral combat. The first magician wins because he brought a magic sword (a no-dachi for a +2 reach on top of being a badass focus) to the fight and trounces the other magician, who takes an unresisted weapon DV equal to charisma/2+ (whatever a no-dachi's bonus DV is).

This feels a bit more solid in gameplay than what I was wondering in the beginning. Thanks guys. Also brings up the absurdly hilarious idea of magicians and adepts carrying around weapon foci that they can't wield in normal combat because they lack the skill and training, but can use when fighting astral entities with deadly efficiency.

"hey guys, watch me hack this spirit in half with this sword I can't even pick up!"
TheOOB
QUOTE (TKDNinjaInBlack @ Sep 24 2008, 01:59 AM) *
So, let me get this right then.

The adept who is astrally perceiving fighting the other adept doing the same follows just a normal fight and they actually have damage resistance because they are physical attacks on physical bodies and they both are stupid for fighting in the astral because they get a -2 to perception tests and would be better off using natural vision.

the adept who is astrally perceiving fighting the spirit who is entirely astral would roll Willpower + Astral Combat (+ weapon focus if applicable) against the spirit's Intuition + Astral combat. The adept looks really silly swinging and punching at thin air, but through sheer force of will damages the spirit on the astral plane and the spirit takes charisma/2 (or weapon focus damage) without resistance.

The projecting magician dueling another magician rolls logic + Astral Combat ( again + weapon focus if applicable) against the other magician's intuition + Astral combat. The first magician wins because he brought a magic sword (a no-dachi for a +2 reach on top of being a badass focus) to the fight and trounces the other magician, who takes an unresisted weapon DV equal to charisma/2+ (whatever a no-dachi's bonus DV is).

This feels a bit more solid in gameplay than what I was wondering in the beginning. Thanks guys. Also brings up the absurdly hilarious idea of magicians and adepts carrying around weapon foci that they can't wield in normal combat because they lack the skill and training, but can use when fighting astral entities with deadly efficiency.

"hey guys, watch me hack this spirit in half with this sword I can't even pick up!"


If two adepts are astraly perceiving they can be attacked with either physical or astral attacks, which might give a more social adept the edge over a more physical one. As soon as you use astral perception you become dual natured and thus become vulnerable to attacks from two planes, it's a risky gambit but oftentimes worth it.

Otherwise you got things pretty much right. Weapon foci are essential for being good in astral combat, just as you don't usually want to fight unarmed in physical, being unarmed in astral isn't safe either(unless you are an adept built for those things, natch), and just as a hacker can be clumsy and slow in the meat but fast and skilled in the matrix, a magician can be inept at combat with a real sword but deadly with it's astral form.
ornot
I'm pretty sure that the type of weapon focus is unrelated to the damage bonus, which is governed by the weapon foci's force. Thus in astral combat a force 4 butter knife weapon foci provides a greater damage bonus than a force 2 no dachi. I'm pretty sure that reach bonuses don't apply in the astral, although I could be wrong.

As for a dual natured form attacking an astral form, it's not the greatest plan, since the astral form gets to use astral initiative and astral movement rates, while the dual natured adept is tied to their physical initiative and movement rate. If the astral form has any form of ranged attack (for example, spell casting) they can float out of range of the adept and hurl magicy bolts of doom at them.
TKDNinjaInBlack
I looked at Aaron's rules cheat sheets, and that's where I got the confirmation that reach carries into the astral. You mystic blade of longer length would provide you with the reach bonus across the astral as well. Since he's a dev, I'll trust that he's right on the matter. Also, by the book, under the weapon focus description it says that the weapons damage is the same on the astral plane as in the physical plane. I'd say that's good indication of taking into account the blades bonus DV.

So how would 2 adepts using astral perception play out then? The attacker (while in physical combat) with the other chooses to attack the astral form of his dual natured opponent. He rolls willpower + astral combat (because he's attacking an astral form), but looks really sissy because in the meat world, because his body is still tied to his astral form, and as he does as really flamboyant display of willful power, his teammates laugh at the drama. The defender rolls intuition + astral combat to create an equally silly real world display as he reacts to the attacker. The attacker wins the test and the defender takes charisma/2 damage to his stun track.

See, I think we're missing damage resistance on the side of the defender. Why else would there be an equivalent body attribute on the astral? Shouldn't willpower be rolled as a damage resistance test to soak some of that nasty astral combat damage? Wouldn't mystic armor also apply? It says it does in the book under its description, so there has to be a damage resistance test that I'm missing, right?
TheOOB
Look at page 184 of the core rule book on the table. For the magician attack it lists damage as Charisma/2 round up, and for magician with weapon focus they list the damage as by weapon type, which means you do use the weapons damage as listed(though since charisma replaces your strength while astral you use your charisma for damage).

I'm not sure if a dual natured being uses cha for str for damage though.
Ol' Scratch
In the end, Astral Combat as a skill is really only in 4th Edition as a legacy skill. It doesn't make much sense the way it's presented (being the universal kick-ass skill that works equally well with unarmed attacks, swords, maces, staves, or monofilament whips). Astral combat appears to be identical to melee combat in every way except the change of stats, regardless of how goofy that is. Especially when dealing with dual-natured beings (including astrally-perceiving adepts and mages). At best Astral Combat should have just been a specialization available to normal melee skills much the way Remote-Control is a specialization for vehicle skills, with the only change being... exactly the same. Namely, the use of different attributes for determining the outcome. And even that's a stretch for dual-natured fighters who, obviously, still have to hit you with their physical weapon.

But we're stuck with it, so... c'est la vie.
Mithral MAge
QUOTE (TKDNinjaInBlack @ Sep 24 2008, 01:31 PM) *
I looked at Aaron's rules cheat sheets...



These are where?
TKDNinjaInBlack
They are on his shadowrun resource site.

http://pavao.org/shadowrun/index.html

@funk: there's no need to hound whether or not this skill is worthless in gameplay, or its parallels to unarmed combat. In its form it functions just fine to make a mage or shaman beastly when they astrally project and combat other astral entities. That said mage or shaman might not know a thing about real life unarmed combat, and that makes a lot of sense to me. Likewise the other way. Those skilled at meat body unarmed combat could be completely inept at astral combat because although they know application of force and power, these things don't matter at all on the astral. It would be an impressive display of combat prowess to attack an astral entity with force and strength while dual natured, but more or less fool hearty unless the character knows how to apply that spiritual/mana based combat attack.

That being said, you've said your opinion, and I've stated mine. It's very unlikely that we'll change our minds whatever the examples we lay down. Being that this is a fictional game, nobody can really site FACT to back up their argument. We have no need to nag back and forth like we've done on other threads.

Still, can anybody clarify if there is a damage resistance test? Under Mystic Armor, it more or less suggests there is one. Also on p 184, It mentions how astral combat is handled like any normal melee combat, so there should be a damage resistance test where body is turned into willpower, right?
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (TKDNinjaInBlack @ Sep 25 2008, 11:27 AM) *
@funk: there's no need to hound whether or not this skill is worthless in gameplay, or its parallels to unarmed combat. In its form it functions just fine to make a mage or shaman beastly when they astrally project and combat other astral entities. That said mage or shaman might not know a thing about real life unarmed combat, and that makes a lot of sense to me. Likewise the other way. Those skilled at meat body unarmed combat could be completely inept at astral combat because although they know application of force and power, these things don't matter at all on the astral. It would be an impressive display of combat prowess to attack an astral entity with force and strength while dual natured, but more or less fool hearty unless the character knows how to apply that spiritual/mana based combat attack.

That's why you use your mental attributes on the astral plane and your physical on the real world. With the way astral combat works in 4th edition, you're using exactly the same swings, maneuvers, and techniques when fighting an astral entity as you do with physical opponents. The same reach. The same weapon damage. The same martial arts maneuvers. Everything. But, for some reason, it requires a completely different skill for no apparent reason. And even worse, that one single skill covers every melee fighting style known to man. But only on the astral. For some reason. If you're a scrawny little elven mage who can barely cut a piece of wet paper with a knife in the physical realm, when you swing that same knife focus on the astral plane it's suddenly doing a phenomenal amount of damage to astral entities due solely to your overwhelming Charisma. But you're still swinging that knife like you would in the real world. Yet... for no good reason... a completely different skill.

In previous editions it worked on a different principle. You literally were attacking with your force of will. You could just stand there and make an angry face as you fought if you were so inclined. You also had the option of using an Astral Combat skill for doing so or the appropriate melee skill if you were so inclined (and wanted to use a weapon focus). With the way they changed astral combat in 4th Edition, having an Astral Combat skill makes little to no sense precisely because they changed it so that you still have to (meta-)physically attack your target just like you would in the physical world.

QUOTE
That being said, you've said your opinion, and I've stated mine. It's very unlikely that we'll change our minds whatever the examples we lay down. Being that this is a fictional game, nobody can really site FACT to back up their argument. We have no need to nag back and forth like we've done on other threads.

Probably because I wasn't citing FACT in my previous post. It was pretty fucking clear I was just stating my OPINION on the subject. God fucking forbid. In fact my first post in this thread told you exactly how it works in SR4. That said, you're the only one who brought anything up from anywhere here (nevermind that I don't even have a clue what you're whining on about with any of this). So, in other words, piss off.

QUOTE
Still, can anybody clarify if there is a damage resistance test? Under Mystic Armor, it more or less suggests there is one. Also on p 184, It mentions how astral combat is handled like any normal melee combat, so there should be a damage resistance test where body is turned into willpower, right?

Except for the differences mentioned in the tiny little section of the Magic chapter, it works just like melee combat. Much like you, yourself, just said. Or is "handled like any normal melee combat" really that hard to comprehend?
TKDNinjaInBlack
And I wasn't telling you that your opinion was wrong, just that mine was different. Being that you not only decided to repeat your opinion with more gusto, but especially after I had explained I understood it was your opinion, you then throw more personal attacks at me and try to get the last word in to prove victory. On top of the vuglar display of language and insinuated anger, you then tell me to "piss off" and insult my ability to comprehend things.

I'd say that an admin needs to step in and do something about Funk. If not a banning, at least a suspension.
Ol' Scratch
If you don't want people telling you to piss off, maybe you should stop starting things by telling them they're nagging, not founded by "FACT," and otherwise acting like a dick yourself. Especially when you're only whining about some imaginary battle of epic proportions that only exists in your head.
Fortune
QUOTE (TKDNinjaInBlack @ Sep 26 2008, 04:03 AM) *
I'd say that an admin needs to step in and do something about Funk. If not a banning, at least a suspension.


Backseat Moderation is also frowned upon by the Powers-That-Be, but I've noticed a fair amount of that kind of thing going on over the past few days, both from yourself and several others.

QUOTE (Posting Guidelines)
Please do not try to do the job of the forum staff. If you have an issue that you would like to see addressed, PM a moderator and we will take a look at the situation.

This includes such actions as telling people what to post or not post, asking people to leave or stop posting, or telling someone that you are reporting them to forum staff, among other things.

TKDNinjaInBlack
I'll keep that in mind.
The Monk
OK, now that all that is over, does anyone have any idea how to make Astral Combat more usefull. Any house rules?
Ravor
Personally I like the old rule about all drain being Physical while on the Astral, that and allowing people in Astral Combat to just stare at each other.

But then again I've never liked the idea that you could use mundane weapon skills to fight something in the Astral.
The Monk
QUOTE (Ravor @ Sep 26 2008, 12:29 PM) *
Personally I like the old rule about all drain being Physical while on the Astral, that and allowing people in Astral Combat to just stare at each other.

But then again I've never liked the idea that you could use mundane weapon skills to fight something in the Astral.


I picture of two spiritual masters meeting at a bridge, they stare at each other and after a few moments one gives way to the other defeated.
Ravor
Yeah, only with the addition that one falls over dead from his brain turning into mush. cyber.gif
TKDNinjaInBlack
Well, who's to say that a master of Astral Combat wouldn't just stand there as he astrally perceives and stares down his opponent? I mean, if it is an astral form he's attacking, it's with Willpower + Astral Combat, so there's no definite description saying that the stare of death doesn't happen. Imagine if you will, the adept and the magician meeting on a bridge, and facing off. They both go astral to assence their opponent and they feel they can take each other. The adept goes first and attacks because his initiative is higher and really hits the magician, making him stumble backwards, but the magician grabs the ropes of the bridge and whips his head around to give this death stare at the adept that knocks him flat on his ass. The adept knows he obviously shouldn't have picked this fight and backs off. In RL we see nothing actually hit the adept, but on the astral, the magicians astral form unleashes an attack that punches the adept right in the face. Or am I getting this all wrong and very literally, your astral form is COMPLETELY tied to your body when you are dual natured? Would this be better left as a spell cast on the adept?
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
OK, now that all that is over, does anyone have any idea how to make Astral Combat more usefull. Any house rules?

There's really no easy way to resolve it without completely retooling the astral combat rules in SR4. My house rule, as mentioned earlier, is that Astral Combat is no longer a skill but a specialization available to melee skills. Blades (Astral Combat), for instance, instead of Astral Combat (Blades). Not only does it help magicians out a bit by shaving down the number of skills they may or may not need to get, but it still allows them to suck in physical combat while excelling in astral combat since the latter still uses their mental attributes. Thus the Elven Mage with Str 2 and Cha 8 and Unarmed Combat (Astral Combat) 3 will do next to no damage when sucker punching a random security guard, but throw him into an astral fight and he's suddenly got a combat skill of 5 and a virtual Strength of 8.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that in my version of said rules, that would be the only specialization allowed in astral combat, thereby reflecting the awkwardness of using melee weapons in astral combat for those who are unfamiliar and untrained in such things... but still not requiring them to learn a whole new skill in order to use their weapon essentially the exact same way as they normally do, only with different attributes.

QUOTE
Well, who's to say that a master of Astral Combat wouldn't just stand there as he astrally perceives and stares down his opponent?

Because that's not what SR4's rules for astral combat entails. You still fight the opponent just as you would if they were physical (hence the use of Reach, Damage Values, Armor Penetration and everything else). You just use your mental stats and Astral Combat in place of your ordinary melee skills. Unless, of course, you let people just stand there squinting in physical melee combat, too.
The Monk
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Sep 26 2008, 11:09 PM) *
EDIT: Forgot to mention that in my version of said rules, that would be the only specialization allowed in astral combat, thereby reflecting the awkwardness of using melee weapons in astral combat for those who are unfamiliar and untrained in such things... but still not requiring them to learn a whole new skill in order to use their weapon essentially the exact same way as they normally do, only with different attributes.


Would you allow someone without the specialization Astral Combat to still use that weapon against a fully astral being if the Adept was able to Astrally Percieve?

For example the adept is astrally percieving has a weapon focus but does not have the astral combat specialization, he can still fight the fully astral spirit.
Ol' Scratch
Sure would. The restriction you listed basically negates any other specialization the character may have. So if they have Blades (Swords) 3, for example, they'd only get 3 dice while fighting astral beings rather than their usual 5. They may be a pro when using a sword in the meat world, but it's just awkward enough on the astral to negate that bonus. General knowledge and skill isn't being penalized, however, since that's the entire point of a general skill versus a specialization.
The Monk
Would you allow dodge skill to be used in astral? Hmm, are there any indirect mana spells?
Ol' Scratch
Dodge? Yes, it's used in the default rules, too. Indirect mana spells? No. "Indirect Spell" is basically just the hip new term for "Elemental Manipulation Spell."
TKDNinjaInBlack
See, the one thing I don't like about keeping astral combat and unarmed combat the same skill is the implied connotations that the skill means. I thought you were saying that we're trying to promote the idea of a meat body awkward mage who doesn't really know how to wield the weapons he takes with him on the astral. If that said awkward mage has low physical attributes, but a high blades skill, technically, he's received as much training as a physically sound and superior attributed blade martial artist of the same skill rating. Unless you also have house rules to counter the possible abuse of your astral combat on the real world, that awkward mage just got a big leg up in combat with his real sword.

That's why I've always liked the idea of having two separate skills for the different applications of melee combat. Clubs, blades, and Unarmed combat are skills that account for the various applications of physical force and strength with the implied weapons. Applied physical force doesn't work on astral entities so those years of training on how to punch a dude really really hard are useless, but willful manipulation of mana causes damage in the astral. IMO that would be a different skill even though I may be using the same weapon for both attacks. If I shoot a gun at a target, I would use my firearms skill, but if I was using my gun's grip as a hammer, or a bludgeon, I wouldn't be using my firearms skill, it would be clubs or whatever mechanic skill (depending on beating a fool in the face, or hammering nails).

I know a lot of players complain about having a separate skill that is almost the same as an existing skill, especially since it is a BP and karma sink, but I think that it adds to the logical play to the game and cuts down on having to create another house rule to prevent another house rule from being used logically and most likely abusively. Instead of making 2 house rules to get the same effect, I'll use the RAW. Plus, astral combat is one heck of a bonus (it encompasses blades, clubs and unarmed on the astral) for getting 3 skills for one instead of the writers making us learn 3 separate skills for 3 skills that on the physical require each to be their own skill. Of course, this is only my opinion.
The Monk
QUOTE (TKDNinjaInBlack @ Sep 28 2008, 04:52 PM) *
See, the one thing I don't like about keeping astral combat and unarmed combat the same skill is the implied connotations that the skill means. I thought you were saying that we're trying to promote the idea of a meat body awkward mage who doesn't really know how to wield the weapons he takes with him on the astral. If that said awkward mage has low physical attributes, but a high blades skill, technically, he's received as much training as a physically sound and superior attributed blade martial artist of the same skill rating. Unless you also have house rules to counter the possible abuse of your astral combat on the real world, that awkward mage just got a big leg up in combat with his real sword.

By abuse do you mean a combat between two astrally percieving opponents or one astrally percieving and one projecting? What kind of abuse can there be?

I mean if the mage is astrally percieving and he attacks someone that isn't astral in any way, isn't his physical attributes used?
Ol' Scratch
There isn't any abuse, and he does indeed use his physical attributes when attacking physical opponents.

QUOTE
...but a high blades skill, technically, he's received as much training as a physically sound and superior attributed blade martial artist of the same skill rating.

Sure has. Except that if you pit them against one another the mage is pretty much guaranteed to be a shishkabob. Because while he knows how to use a sword, he doesn't have the same physical prowess to take full advantage of that knowledge. Unless he's fighting an astral entity where his personal mastery and superior attributes turn him into a bad ass... against said entities. What's more, if the magician has the Astral Combat specialization while the adept has, say, the Swords specialization, the differences on both planes are even more drastic.
Ravor
From a rules standpoint I agree Dr. Funkenstein, I just don't like it from a thematic POV.
TKDNinjaInBlack
Where I was trying to go with saying "abuse" was stating that your mage will be able to handle himself in physical combat against real life opponents. It doesn't quite fit with the classic "inept at physical sword use but stellar at astral manipulation of the same weapon" mentality that I think is more fitting for gameplay. And yeah, while that mage gets to use his high skill for physical combat and lower stats vs the swordsman who is training his body as well as his skills, I feel the separation between the two of them should be more than 3-4 dice for a switch in attribute, and 2-4 for a specialization difference. You might end up with a 6-8 dice difference between that martial artist and your mage when they fight on the physical realm. If we side the RAW way, that difference is even more drastic because then there is an assumed difference between the mage's higher mental attributes and physical attributes for a possible 3-4 dice there, but then there could be a lack of any physical melee combat skill as compared to a highly skilled martial artist with a spec in swords which would just give us another 6-8 dice pool difference on top of that. I am not going to deny the practicality of your house rules (because they do allow more versatility at lower BP or karma), but I just really feel that it is a different skill entirely and can't transcend the gap between the astral realm and the physical.
Ol' Scratch
That's one of the things I addressed earlier.

Astral combat in SR4 isn't like that scene in Big Trouble in Little China where Egg and Lo Pan have a duel with spectral samurai. It could have been described like that in former editions of the game, but not SR4. Astral combat in SR4 is literally the same thing as physical combat, only with different mental attributes and the forced use of Astral Combat (as opposed to an optional use).

Which actually creates the opposite problem when dealing with adepts, who really are the ones most likely to engage an astral entity in combat. Full magicians almost always stick with their mana spells, as they should since they're not only more powerful in almost every single way, but let them use the same skills and attributes they normally use and excel in. So who is Astral Combat targetted at? Even aspected conjurers can't use it properly (-4 to -6 dice pool penalty), so they're right out. Hell, even they might as well stick with spellcasting as they receive exactly the same penalty and spellcasting can not only be used for fighting astral entities but everything else, too.

So the only character likely to use Astral Combat on even a semi-regular basis is the adept. With the adept being the one class in Shadowrun most closely associated with martial training and direct combat. So why, again, are they needing a completely different skill to use their weapon(s) in exactly the same way when that spirit decides to stop being dual-natured and instead go fully astral? They still have to be close enough to swing their sword at. They still suffer the exact same amount of damage. The same amount of armor is penetrated. But... not? WTF?

The only reason I can see the change is to justify characters taking the skill, which wasn't a popular choice even when it did make sense for both types of characters to have it from time to time. "It was in the older editions and no one ever took it, so let's bring it over and force people to take it." In other words, its only point in existing is to justify its only point in existing. Again: WTF?

Now if you came up with a completely new set of astral combat rules, and/or fighting on the astral plane could be done with either the unique Astral Combat skill or normal melee skills, it might occasionally be a valuable tool. And not just because the game designers wanted to force people to take it which, again, is the only real reason it's still in the game. But even then, it wouldn't be a popular choice unless a character concept specifically revolved around it (such as an aethermancer style character who explores the astral on a regular basis).

Which is why earlier in this thread I advocated just ditching it altogether. The characters who have no choice but to use it (adepts) only use it because they do, in fact, have no choice but to use it. The characters who normally wouldn't use it (magicians) still will rarely, if ever, bother with it. So what's the real point in it with the way astral combat works in SR4?
The Monk
My problem is that my mage doesn't even bother with Astral Combat, he bought one ranking at char gen and now wonders why he did that. His stats are better in astral whether he has it or not. Its the same reasoning why mages seldom have those close combat and weapon skills, why bother when you can just blast them with a spell?

Astral Combat is useful for my on again off again physical adept player. But then again if he had to do it all over again he wouldn't have gotten astral perception because its just too expensive. Dr. Funkenstein's house rule would benefit him the most. It opens up a lot of options for him including martial arts maneuvers, which in turn makes astral combat more interresting (rather then the you astral combat, i astral combat, you astral combat, i astral combat, ooh you take two boxes).
Muspellsheimr
My suggestion would be to change Astral Combat range to Line of Sight, remove the ability to use standard Weapon Foci, add a special "Astral Combat Focus", & remove the physical actions, like swinging a sword.

You now have a purely mental Battle of Will.
Ravor
You would also either need to outright ban spellcasting while on the Astral or do something else to make simply tossing Manabolts around seem like a bad idea, perhaps instead of making all drain Physical, don't allow soaking while Astral. Otherwise we would still be in the situation that Dr Funk describes where Astral Combat is always a second string skill at best.
TKDNinjaInBlack
While I agree that it is more or less a wasted skill, we were never really supposed to be discussing how we thought it was worthless or not. Like I said in my first post, it had never come up in my previous groups because we were all powergamers only picking skills and powers that benefited us, but in my campaign now, which I like a lot more, it's a lot more RP intensive and this skill has actually been used.

It's a thematic skill, and one that my magic players like taking and engaging in regularly now. They view astral combat as a combat rite that is a great equalizer whereas spellcasting cheapens victories.

Plus, it would be very handy for any kind of non-martial art adept to take (especially one with high mental attributes unlike most martial arts adepts have) for spiritual defense, while in the real world he might just shoot someone.

One last thing that you guys are not giving astral combat credit for though is movement across the astral plane. Since almost anywhere line of sight can be moved to within any initiative pass or action phase, you are always effectively engaged in close combat. Take into account cover from real life shadows cast onto the plane and visibility modifiers for spellcasting due to astral clutter and residue, and that astral combat skill is looking a whole helluva lot nicer than it was before, especially if your mage has some astral armor cast on himself.
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