How would you rate your current SR game? Options

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

Also I'd strongly advise against regularly hanging out in AO or higher territory. People become desensitized, and when the medium is purely written or spoken the shock wears off fast. And then it just loses punch.

Totally agree. Adult themes will pump the rating right up to M, but it's the level of detail that will carry it on over into AO. You can still have your dark and gritty game at a nice M rating without giving the specifics and traveling into the AO area. Like in On the Run, mention it's a Atzlan snuff BTL of torture and execution of political prisoners, just like the book says. Mature theme for a mature game. If your players really want to know how they are being tortured and how they die, that description is going to take it up to an AO rating, but let the players decide if it's going there. Give a rich and dark theme by letting them know the type of things they are exposed to, but leave the detail hidden and don't beat them over the head with it. If a character really wants to know, then enlighten them.

[Ravor]

Actually you can't use Bull's sticky as a badge of authority, considering that it was a general reminder to play nice and not a call to deputize various Dumpshockers.

As for the main debate though, perhaps not surprisingly, I disagree, because the dehumanizing of society is what cyberpunk is supposed to be about so to do anything less is quite simply not living up to the ideals of the cyberpunk genre. Luck has nothing to do with it.

[Fuchs]

As for the main debate though, perhaps not surprisingly, I disagree, because the dehumanizing of society is what cyberpunk is supposed to be about so to do anything less is quite simply not living up to the ideals of the cyberpunk genre. Luck has nothing to do with it.

I wouldn't be so sure that we're not already past or post cyberpunk.

What matters is what the specific group has fun with. Shadowrun can accomodate a variety of playstyles and concepts, from CSI:Seattle to P2.0 90210 to Curse of the Neon Pearl to the Matrix Falcon etc. All the "big themes" of Shadowrun can appear in a campaign, although usually to varying degrees.

[sunnyside]

Some very good points. Cyberpunk has the whole desensitizing thing going on.

Though it could be easily argued the Shadowrun is squarely "post cyberpunk" in genre.

But either way all of the major cyberpunk and post cyberpunk works have been M or lower rated stuff. Usually lower actually.

[Cantankerous]

I don't know, but I certainly want my cyberpunk grim and dirty. Now, tact is still implicit in the role of GM, but give me brutal sadistic bastards as the enemy, people you love to hate, that's for me what makes the genre. Yes, off camera the stuff, but don't get so vague that it looses it's impact. There has to be something that makes the PLAYER angry, or disgusted or just saddened.

The reason that published works are decidedly M instead of AO, is quite simply and only audience appeal. Most people (and by this I do NOT mean most gamers) are too easily offended for an AO piece to have a chance in Hell of selling well. So, not only the author, but usually the publisher (and almost always the publisher much more strongly) self censor the hell out of anything meant to appeal to a broader audience.


Isshia

[sunnyside]

Well, remember you can get away with quite a bit under M+. There isn't a single game for a console rated higher than that to give you an idea. All the AO games are for computers and have names like "WET - The Sexy Empire " because it's fairly hard to have enough violence to get the upgrade.

[Whipstitch]

It isn't like a game is neccesarily "better" as it marches it's way up the ESRB ratings. I wouldn't set it as a goal unless you have reason to go there.

Also I'd strongly advise against regularly hanging out in AO or higher territory. People become desensitized, and when the medium is purely written or spoken the shock wears off fast. And then it just loses punch.

Though if the PCs want to go there and you're comfortable with it I suppose there you are.

Yeah, I'm not in a rush to take my game into darker territories. I'm just saying that I have a hard enough time as it is staying in character and keeping the proper mindset when I'm just juggling gangers, Mr. Js, corp suits and houngans. Bringing in the Ted Bundys of the world into things as any more than a cardboard cut out villain is frankly beyond me, so I don't really see the point in trying. We have had Tamanous though, but they're easy since you can just play up the fact that for those guys it's all biz, gruesome as it may be.

[Wesley Street]

As for the main debate though, perhaps not surprisingly, I disagree, because the dehumanizing of society is what cyberpunk is supposed to be about so to do anything less is quite simply not living up to the ideals of the cyberpunk genre. Luck has nothing to do with it.

Cyberpunk is "high tech (cyber) and low life (punk)". The dehumanization of the individual is a theme of some works but is hardly a requirement for inclusion in the dated subgenre.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

There has to be something that makes the PLAYER angry, or disgusted or just saddened.

Agreed. Why play "just another run" when you really want to do something that stands out. After all, it's like telling a story or watching a movie. There has to be something special that's a good reason why you're investing the time into it and experiencing it. Our group either does this by canonical story elements we play through, dealing with typical but elite cyberpunk/shadowrun themes and icons (like cyberzombies, cyborgs, AI's, Shedim, Bug Spirits, etc.) or dealing with and eliminating the darker aspects of society. When players find out they're running opposite a Humanis troll hating neo racist and they're mostly playing metahumans, then they have a really good reason to hate the bad guy and want to succeed beyond the cash. I mean by the books, they give tons of organizations that NPCs can be members of that the players can love to hate. I try to make my campaigns one third iconic involvement, one third dealing with bad dudes who players should want to be dead, and dropped across a one third canonical backdrop.

If the players get too out of line and start doing stuff that is worse than the people they should be wanting to kill, the impact of how morally broken their baddies are is lost. They will start thinking, "So what, we beat him in that category." Likewise if everyone else in the world is doing things that are just as bad as the target or nemesis. The players forget why he's any worse than the rest of society.

[Cantankerous]

Agreed. Why play "just another run" when you really want to do something that stands out. After all, it's like telling a story or watching a movie. There has to be something special that's a good reason why you're investing the time into it and experiencing it. Our group either does this by canonical story elements we play through, dealing with typical but elite cyberpunk/shadowrun themes and icons (like cyberzombies, cyborgs, AI's, Shedim, Bug Spirits, etc.) or dealing with and eliminating the darker aspects of society. When players find out they're running opposite a Humanis troll hating neo racist and they're mostly playing metahumans, then they have a really good reason to hate the bad guy and want to succeed beyond the cash. I mean by the books, they give tons of organizations that NPCs can be members of that the players can love to hate. I try to make my campaigns one third iconic involvement, one third dealing with bad dudes who players should want to be dead, and dropped across a one third canonical backdrop.

If the players get too out of line and start doing stuff that is worse than the people they should be wanting to kill, the impact of how morally broken their baddies are is lost. They will start thinking, "So what, we beat him in that category." Likewise if everyone else in the world is doing things that are just as bad as the target or nemesis. The players forget why he's any worse than the rest of society.

Bingo. THAT is precisely where the limit lays. Violence and decadence are elements of the game, but they are NOT what you WANT to promote in your Player Characters. The books present, pretty clearly, heroes. They are almost always flawed heroes, but they are heroes. They can be brutally rough at times, like the guy we had who very personally gelded the kiddie porn/slavers, but, and that but is the important thing, it was because it hit the Player in the bread basket. It made the Player angry and feel (it was plain on his face) a certain grim satisfaction, but mixed with disgust at what he himself had done. More recently we have a guy who is playing a character who is VERY religiously inclined, actually acting as, among other things, an Exorcist for the Gladius Dei, who really agonizes over some of the things he does, IC, but only when away from the group.

It's amazing to see the weirdness he has incorporated into this character that all hangs together in the dehumanized, cyberpunk tradition, without becoming a monster himself. That is the aim, and it fits here as well as in VtM, "Monsters we are, lest monsters we become." And he has managed it. The exorcist presently has three very minor free spirits he sees as Quasits (through the lens of his obsession) who he is actively trying to CONVERT or save. His methods are bizarre too. For anyone who remembers the thread, we talked about Captain C-Bucks (He was utterly materialistic before he "saw the light".) trying to keep three quasits happy by, among other things, finding hookers to keep them tired and passive. It isn't as weird as it sounds (though I personally think he's crazy, that seems to be part of the point) and hangs together and is all off camera...well, look up the thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Isshia

[sunnyside]

Hey we got a Japan. (FYI I think the difference in US and Japan is primarily the difference in the age at which girls are "legal". In Japan it's 13. You can also get away with slightly more messed up stuff there I believe).

[Cantankerous]

Hey we got a Japan. (FYI I think the difference in US and Japan is primarily the difference in the age at which girls are "legal". In Japan it's 13. You can also get away with slightly more messed up stuff there I believe).

Actually most places in Japan it's 16 to 18, just like in the states. Under the strange but true heading there are certain US states where 12 is legal age if another minor is involved and in many 14 is legal as long as the partner is less than three years older.


Isshia

[Wesley Street]

Because there's a complete separation of church and state but societal repression in the form of conformity, the Japanese are known for their bizarre sexual appetites. It's an attitude of, "You can do what you want to who you want as long as it doesn't affect your productivity." Though what we see exported to the US and Europe in the way of video and animation tends to focus more on the violent aspects (as we live in cultures of violence) which gives us in the West a distorted view. On the flip side, the creation of child pornography wasn't outlawed there until 1999 though possession is still legal and it still flourishes on the Internet and in the semi-underground as lolicon. Check out the Transformers: Kiss Players for an especially disturbing portrayal of how this attitude has even infiltrated the toy industry.

The sex industry in Japan equals 1% of its GDP and is equal to its national defense budget. According to Interpol, the age of sexual consent in Japan is 13 while the age of a child is anyone under 18. Men can legally marry at 18 and women at 16 without parental consent.

Japanese censorship laws have always amused me, especially in how they've caused mutations in the adult entertainment industry, though those have relaxed since the 1990s. Tentacle-porn came about as it was illegal to show male genitals.

[Cantankerous]

Because there's a complete separation of church and state but societal repression in the form of conformity, the Japanese are known for their bizarre sexual appetites. It's an attitude of, "You can do what you want to who you want as long as it doesn't affect your productivity." Though what we see exported to the US and Europe in the way of video and animation tends to focus more on the violent aspects (as we live in cultures of violence) which gives us in the West a distorted view. On the flip side, the creation of child pornography wasn't outlawed there until 1999 though possession is still legal and it still flourishes on the Internet and in the semi-underground as lolicon. Check out the Transformers: Kiss Players for an especially disturbing portrayal of how this attitude has even infiltrated the toy industry.

The sex industry in Japan equals 1% of its GDP and is equal to its national defense budget. According to Interpol, the age of sexual consent in Japan is 13 while the age of a child is anyone under 18. Men can legally marry at 18 and women at 16 without parental consent.

Japanese censorship laws have always amused me, especially in how they've caused mutations in the adult entertainment industry, though those have relaxed since the 1990s. Tentacle-porn came about as it was illegal to show male genitals.

It was also illegal for years to show the genitals of any woman under the age of eighteen and even in drawings and representation. According to one of my Players who has a penchant for this stuff, some sites still have oddly blanked or distorted genital shots, especially in animes. Be careful about age of consent too. Most of the prefectures have their own internal laws which over ride the national laws (just like in the different US states) and many of them adopt much higher ages of consent, including all the way up to 18.


Isshia

[sunnyside]

Actually most places in Japan it's 16 to 18, just like in the states. Under the strange but true heading there are certain US states where 12 is legal age if another minor is involved and in many 14 is legal as long as the partner is less than three years older.


Isshia

Ok. I don't actually know this. But I thought since the national age was 13 and it was just local laws that upped things higher that stuff like porn or games could generally operate without getting sued using 13 year olds. Whereas that won't fly anywhere in the US.

[Malkcntent]

I tend to avoid the sex but the violence, drug use and language are all there in spades. One character is a BTL dealer and most are criminals with little compunction about killing. Besides, one visit to the Body Mall in Redmond gets you an M rating by itself...

[Wesley Street]

Boobs bad, guts good. What a world.

I'll use tits and ass in my setting descriptors when appropriate but my players don't role-play sexual situations.

[Cantankerous]

Boobs bad, guts good. What a world.

It's not the world, thank god, Allah to Zeus and take your pick.

Sexual repression runs deep in the US. For a nation that claims to be (and in some ways still is) a leading light in the world, the still to this day sexual puritanism that was handed down from the earliest colonial days is an object of shame for many of us. Would that it were so for more of us, for then more rapid change might come about. What the Flappers started in the roaring twenties is now eight decades behind us, almost four generations and we still, in many ways, far too many, cling to the same out modded, repression centered values that most of the rest of the world laughs at. We are no longer a young nation. We aren't even a "teenager" as a nation any longer. We may even be moving into middle age as a nation. It's time to stop with the adolescent attitudes concerning sex, machoism and our place in the world community.

May one day it will even occur.

Well, I can dream can't I?



Isshia

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

May one day it will even occur.

Well, I can dream can't I?

seeing how unenlightened the majority of us are over here in the states, I don't think we'll see this day in our lifetime. We've got too many fat rich white men keeping things status quo so they can profit while in power before we'll see any kind of intellectual, sociological or psychological revolution. But hey, ages of enlightenment come and go about every 300 years, and historically, we're about due for one... Unfortunately they always come after some kind of massive plague or life altering event that changes things as-we-know-them.

[Cantankerous]

But hey, ages of enlightenment come and go about every 300 years, and historically, we're about due for one... Unfortunately they always come after some kind of massive plague or life altering event that changes things as-we-know-them.

*weak laugh* Please don't now type the words "Lucifer's Hammer". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Isshia

[Wesley Street]

All nations have their puritanical origins and the US is still in its Pax Americana Imperialist phase. But we're starting to slide a bit into our own late quasi-Victorian era. When we choose to (or are forced to) leave the rest of the world alone and when we decide that we might make better use of our resources shoring up own infrastructure and making sure our own citizens are taken care of rather than proselytizing our way of life to the rest of the world... then "teh boobiez" will be free.

We will never be Brazil but I can foresee the US following in the footsteps of the United Kingdom.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

We will never be Brazil...

Oh but the crazy sex parties that would follow if we were...

[sunnyside]

Sexual repression runs deep in the US. For a nation that claims to be (and in some ways still is) a leading light in the world, the still to this day sexual puritanism that was handed down from the earliest colonial days is an object of shame for many of us.

Unless you're talking about gay buttsex, I don't think the shame thing and "sexual repression" is still around so much in the US. Even if the parents are trying their best.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

Unless you're talking about gay buttsex, I don't think the shame thing and "sexual repression" is still around so much in the US. Even if the parents are trying their best.

I live in the midwest, and I can tell you that sexual repression still runs really deep. There are no sexually liberated individuals like you see on the coasts. While teenagers and college aged individuals still have their fun, there is a still huge overhanging cloud of religious oppression that implies they will be struck down if they act too much outside of doctrine. When I was in college, the number of kids I saw that were engaged to be married and were holding out until then was sickening. Funny thing is that most of their marriages are falling apart now because they were basing the whole marriage step in their relationships as a prerequisite for intercourse and to get closer to each other. Once that's done and over with, they have sex, they realize they don't want each other any more and are stuck unhappily married. They should have just had sex to begin with and realize it was time to move on.

This of course isn't taking into consideration the hypocrite bible thumpers that are lying about their sexual experiences, but if someone is lying about sexual experience, I'd say they pretty much are repressing their thoughts and ideas on the matter.

[Wesley Street]

I'll second that. The amount of push for Abstinence Only education where I live in the Midwest is maddening and disheartening as it's been an abysmal failure. Teen pregnancy is actually on the decline in the United States... except for the teenage children of conservative religious types/anti-contraceptive which are statistically on the rise (just look at the stats in any red state). I've attended five weddings, all for friends of a semi-conservative religious leaning, in the past three years and four of the five marriages are completely on the rocks after only a year or two. Plus I knew way too many pregnant girls at my church and in high school.

It sounds crass to say "just have sex and get it over with" but if that's your primary motivator for marriage (not that anyone would ever admit it), you're well and truly boned. And not in the good way.

Tying that back into Shadowrun, I think you can see a direct correlation between players of games who are squeamish about sexuality but not so much with violence and where they live in the world.