Stacking and Unarmed Combat, Bone Lacing and Bone Density? Options

[Fyndhal]

I was building a boxer character over the weekend and noticed that Bone Density and Bone Lacing don't appear to be mutually exclusive. So, assuming the character in question has Strength 7, Bone Density 2 and Plastic Bone Lacing, what would his unarmed damage value be?

Unarmed is (Str/2)S
Bone Density is (Str/2)+1P
Bone Lacing: Plastic is (Str/2)+1P

Is the final value for this character: 5P or 6P

(I apologize if this was asked and answered before, I did a search and found nothing)

[Tarantula]

I'd say 5, because no text explicitly stacks them together, so you could choose to use either one at (Str/2)+1P.

[Ol' Scratch]

They would only "stack" if the bonuses were additive like +1 rather than a full Damage Value such as (Str/2)+1P.

[Stahlseele]

Stack for Damage-Resistance, only highest Bonus for Damage dealing

[BullZeye]

I'd call it a 5P, too. But what if you wear hardliner gloves on top? That's also just a bone lacing of sorts...

[Tarantula]

Hardliner gloves also have a full damage code, and aren't a modifier to unarmed attack damage, so, then you would use the hardliner gloves damage code.

[Stahlseele]

dumb as it is, using titan bones and hardliner gloves softens your hits compared to just the titan bones . .

[Fyndhal]

Thanks for the answers, folks. I assumed the answer would be 5P, but it seems like an odd place for things not to stack -- like the aforementioned Hardliner Gloves and Titan Bones.

Of course, as it is, the character ends up having 7+1+5+2 = 15P damage value, so it's pretty gross already. (Str 7, Plastic Bone Lacing/Bone Density II, Critical Strike Adept Power 5 and Boxing +2 DV if Unarmed)

[Kurious]

Are bone lacing cyberware and bone density bioware compatible?

No. A character can have both, but only the highest bonus would apply.

Oh, wait... you don't like the official FAQ.

Never mind.

Even if you do allow them to stack for damage resistance/armor, it is quite silly to stack the damage. As the general consensus agrees, your punch would still be based off the hardest substance- and would remain unaltered by the secondary 'substance'. Same applies for hardliner gloves.

That is a pretty sick adept you got there Fyndhal. $$

[Tarantula]

dumb as it is, using titan bones and hardliner gloves softens your hits compared to just the titan bones . .

If your fist is harder than what the gloves are made out of, they'd work as padding.

[Tarantula]

Oh, wait... you don't like the official FAQ.

Never mind.

Only when the FAQ contradicts the rules, or just arbitrarily makes up new ones.

[Fyndhal]

Oh, wait... you don't like the official FAQ.

Never mind.

Even if you do allow them to stack for damage resistance/armor, it is quite silly to stack the damage. As the general consensus agrees, your punch would still be based off the hardest substance- and would remain unaltered by the secondary 'substance'. Same applies for hardliner gloves.

That is a pretty sick adept you got there Fyndhal. $$

I didn't check the FAQ first. My mistake! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And, yes, he is pretty sick. Not sure I'd play him as is, but a fun exercise in math.

[ElFenrir]

dumb as it is, using titan bones and hardliner gloves softens your hits compared to just the titan bones . .

We rule that it adds +1 to the DV of an unarmed attack, period. Makes more sense that way, to us. Hardliner gloves are not soft, poofy boxing gloves. They are...hardened gloves. If I ring a metal baseball bat with wood or heavy, hard plastic, I don't see it doing less damage, if anything, it will add to the weight and I'll probably still edge a liiitle more power out of it. If I wrap it in styrofoam? Ok, maybe then. But Hardliners aren't styrofoam.

(keep in mind, I cap the martial arts damage bonus value at +2 DV, period. So this really doesn't throw things off too much.)

As for the bone lacing, I would only rule it as the highest one counting. I suppose you could use the baseball bat with some extra weight arguement here, but I don't think that mixing the lacings/density would double the power. At the MOST I'd maybe add an extra +1 damage(for, again, added weight.)

I didn't even know the bone lacings were stackable, to be honest. I always thought the highest one counted, anyway.

[Ol' Scratch]

That's how Hardliner Gloves worked originally anyway (adding to your blows rather than replacing the damage code).

[Stahlseele]

yep, one of the reasons why high STR Trolls were badass in SR3 . . 18M Damage, just 4 Successes and you're basically doing Panther Damage with your fists! . . even if it is only stun . . .

[BullZeye]

We rule that it adds +1 to the DV of an unarmed attack, period. Makes more sense that way, to us.

Same here.

[Neraph]

You can easily get around a +9 DV on unarmed attacks (not including str, bone density, or hardliner gloves) just by being an Adept with Critical Strike and 30 BPs worth of Martial Arts. I think Martial Arts ends up giving you +12 or +13 DV on unarmed attacks if you get all of them (in game, of course).

[HappyDaze]

Critical Strike is a problem, as is allowing marital arts to add more than +2 DV. Using problematic rules as justification for creating even more problematic rules is unwise.

[Neraph]

Critical Strike is a problem, as is allowing marital arts to add more than +2 DV. Using problematic rules as justification for creating even more problematic rules is unwise.

How so? What's problematic about that? Go tick off a Tai Chi Chuan master and see how bad it hurts when he hits you.

[Fyndhal]

You can easily get around a +9 DV on unarmed attacks (not including str, bone density, or hardliner gloves) just by being an Adept with Critical Strike and 30 BPs worth of Martial Arts. I think Martial Arts ends up giving you +12 or +13 DV on unarmed attacks if you get all of them (in game, of course).

Interestingly, I would be very careful about allowing the +DV from different Martial Arts styles to stack. For example, Boxing says you can take +1DV twice, for a total of +2. Adding Muay Thai style can also give you up to +2. Note that neither says they stack together, and in both cases specify that +2 is the limit. So, I'd allow +1 from boxing and +1 from Muay Thai to stack, but a third +1 to Unarmed DV from Martial Arts styles would not be allowed -- the character is at the +2 Maximum.

Edit:
And as for Critical Strike being a problem, it *is* limited to Magic Rating in ranks, but yes, it can easily be abused. As I said in my earlier post, it makes for an interesting math problem, but I'm not sure I'd play such a character. Doing 14 or 15 DV unarmed is a bit over the top for a starting character.

[Neraph]

For your amusement:

Pg. 156, Arsenal: Martial Arts (Positive Quality): 3rd paragraph, first sentence "A character gains the advantages of all martial arts styles she knows; should they overlap, these dice modifiers stack."

I know DV isn't a dice modifier, but that ruling should be implemented as a precedent for DV gains from the same positive quality. If it helps you sleep at night, you can even use the next line and say you can't get the +DV from Martial Arts higher than the weapon skill.

[Tarantula]

It also doesn't say that you can't stack them together. Since they are referenced as a +1 DV bonus, and not modifying the DV to (Str/2)+1S, then, by RAW they should stack together.

[ElFenrir]

Last I heard, technically, they DO stack. But I personally keep it at +2 maximum. I mean, I'm a melee fanatic, and I houserule it in my own games, nor do I take more than +2 with martial arts. Between things like bone lacing, critical strike, hardliners, etc, the ''Wise Old Master'' dude with Strength 3 can nail home a rather painfully high DV(as well he should). Say he's got some Bone Density 3(to help with those pesky old age bones), +2 DV martial arts, and a set of hardliners(original rules) ; and the old geezer is smacking you for 7P. That's an assault rifle. If the old geezer is an adept instead, add another 4 to that, at least(even with bone density. That's only .9 essence.) [I did one fun build that ended up as a human with 13 DV unarmed attacks. Mundane with cyber, not even and adept, and I did not take anymore than +2 DV. It's really not needed.]

Also, allowing too many to stack I find leads to the infamous Strength-dump samurai. At least making it count SOMEWHAT sort of helps. It's not the most important thing; Strength 3 and strength 5 is only 1 DV. Then again, the difference between a 3 and a 7 is only 2 DV. So it's not like the 3 sucks. I mean, besides, there are all these other abilities to get, too. Stacking Martial Arts gets you other abilities(extra DV with blades, dice to attacks, defense), AND the ability to get more manuevers which rock, so it's still good to get more martial arts if you want them. I found that no one ever took anything except for the +DV, so it just sounded better to keep it at 2.

It's strange, actually...we play a very laid-back, bit higher-power(750 karma range, no Availability limit at chargen, and we allow you to break augmented maxes with cyber since it's damn hard to anyway) games...but there are certain little things that just sorta ''bug'' me a little bit, and overstacking these DVs is one of them. I can't explain why, because it even makes sense when I think about it-if you're damn good, you don't have to be strong to do a shit-ton of damage to someone. But something just sort of irks me.

[Neraph]

It also doesn't say that you can't stack them together. Since they are referenced as a +1 DV bonus, and not modifying the DV to (Str/2)+1S, then, by RAW they should stack together.

Thank you. Not to mention a better precedent than the one I suggested is acutally the text in parenthesis when it talks about the Boxing or Mui Thai DV, which states 'stacks twice, for total +2' (pretty much). Therefore, it can be theorized that if we get additional +DV, it'd all stack.

Adept, 6 Martial Arts, r4 Bone Density = +12 DV (not including str) at chargen. Stun or Physical, whichever.

[sunnyside]

While the rules get a little shaky I'm not too worried about high unarmed damage even with fresh characters.

Remember trolls probably hit harder just with good base stats in SR2/3, and that wasn't broken.