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Fyndhal
I was building a boxer character over the weekend and noticed that Bone Density and Bone Lacing don't appear to be mutually exclusive. So, assuming the character in question has Strength 7, Bone Density 2 and Plastic Bone Lacing, what would his unarmed damage value be?

Unarmed is (Str/2)S
Bone Density is (Str/2)+1P
Bone Lacing: Plastic is (Str/2)+1P

Is the final value for this character: 5P or 6P

(I apologize if this was asked and answered before, I did a search and found nothing)
Tarantula
I'd say 5, because no text explicitly stacks them together, so you could choose to use either one at (Str/2)+1P.
Ol' Scratch
They would only "stack" if the bonuses were additive like +1 rather than a full Damage Value such as (Str/2)+1P.
Stahlseele
Stack for Damage-Resistance, only highest Bonus for Damage dealing
BullZeye
I'd call it a 5P, too. But what if you wear hardliner gloves on top? That's also just a bone lacing of sorts...
Tarantula
Hardliner gloves also have a full damage code, and aren't a modifier to unarmed attack damage, so, then you would use the hardliner gloves damage code.
Stahlseele
dumb as it is, using titan bones and hardliner gloves softens your hits compared to just the titan bones . .
Fyndhal
Thanks for the answers, folks. I assumed the answer would be 5P, but it seems like an odd place for things not to stack -- like the aforementioned Hardliner Gloves and Titan Bones.

Of course, as it is, the character ends up having 7+1+5+2 = 15P damage value, so it's pretty gross already. (Str 7, Plastic Bone Lacing/Bone Density II, Critical Strike Adept Power 5 and Boxing +2 DV if Unarmed)
Kurious
QUOTE
Are bone lacing cyberware and bone density bioware compatible?

No. A character can have both, but only the highest bonus would apply.


Oh, wait... you don't like the official FAQ.

Never mind.

Even if you do allow them to stack for damage resistance/armor, it is quite silly to stack the damage. As the general consensus agrees, your punch would still be based off the hardest substance- and would remain unaltered by the secondary 'substance'. Same applies for hardliner gloves.

That is a pretty sick adept you got there Fyndhal. $$
Tarantula
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 29 2008, 01:26 PM) *
dumb as it is, using titan bones and hardliner gloves softens your hits compared to just the titan bones . .


If your fist is harder than what the gloves are made out of, they'd work as padding.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Kurious @ Sep 29 2008, 01:54 PM) *
Oh, wait... you don't like the official FAQ.

Never mind.


Only when the FAQ contradicts the rules, or just arbitrarily makes up new ones.
Fyndhal
QUOTE (Kurious @ Sep 29 2008, 01:54 PM) *
Oh, wait... you don't like the official FAQ.

Never mind.

Even if you do allow them to stack for damage resistance/armor, it is quite silly to stack the damage. As the general consensus agrees, your punch would still be based off the hardest substance- and would remain unaltered by the secondary 'substance'. Same applies for hardliner gloves.

That is a pretty sick adept you got there Fyndhal. $$



I didn't check the FAQ first. My mistake! smile.gif

And, yes, he is pretty sick. Not sure I'd play him as is, but a fun exercise in math.
ElFenrir
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 29 2008, 03:26 PM) *
dumb as it is, using titan bones and hardliner gloves softens your hits compared to just the titan bones . .



We rule that it adds +1 to the DV of an unarmed attack, period. Makes more sense that way, to us. Hardliner gloves are not soft, poofy boxing gloves. They are...hardened gloves. If I ring a metal baseball bat with wood or heavy, hard plastic, I don't see it doing less damage, if anything, it will add to the weight and I'll probably still edge a liiitle more power out of it. If I wrap it in styrofoam? Ok, maybe then. But Hardliners aren't styrofoam.

(keep in mind, I cap the martial arts damage bonus value at +2 DV, period. So this really doesn't throw things off too much.)

As for the bone lacing, I would only rule it as the highest one counting. I suppose you could use the baseball bat with some extra weight arguement here, but I don't think that mixing the lacings/density would double the power. At the MOST I'd maybe add an extra +1 damage(for, again, added weight.)

I didn't even know the bone lacings were stackable, to be honest. I always thought the highest one counted, anyway.
Ol' Scratch
That's how Hardliner Gloves worked originally anyway (adding to your blows rather than replacing the damage code).
Stahlseele
yep, one of the reasons why high STR Trolls were badass in SR3 . . 18M Damage, just 4 Successes and you're basically doing Panther Damage with your fists! . . even if it is only stun . . .
BullZeye
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Sep 30 2008, 12:31 AM) *
We rule that it adds +1 to the DV of an unarmed attack, period. Makes more sense that way, to us.

Same here.
Neraph
You can easily get around a +9 DV on unarmed attacks (not including str, bone density, or hardliner gloves) just by being an Adept with Critical Strike and 30 BPs worth of Martial Arts. I think Martial Arts ends up giving you +12 or +13 DV on unarmed attacks if you get all of them (in game, of course).
HappyDaze
Critical Strike is a problem, as is allowing marital arts to add more than +2 DV. Using problematic rules as justification for creating even more problematic rules is unwise.
Neraph
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Sep 30 2008, 03:29 PM) *
Critical Strike is a problem, as is allowing marital arts to add more than +2 DV. Using problematic rules as justification for creating even more problematic rules is unwise.


How so? What's problematic about that? Go tick off a Tai Chi Chuan master and see how bad it hurts when he hits you.
Fyndhal
QUOTE (Neraph @ Sep 30 2008, 01:17 PM) *
You can easily get around a +9 DV on unarmed attacks (not including str, bone density, or hardliner gloves) just by being an Adept with Critical Strike and 30 BPs worth of Martial Arts. I think Martial Arts ends up giving you +12 or +13 DV on unarmed attacks if you get all of them (in game, of course).


Interestingly, I would be very careful about allowing the +DV from different Martial Arts styles to stack. For example, Boxing says you can take +1DV twice, for a total of +2. Adding Muay Thai style can also give you up to +2. Note that neither says they stack together, and in both cases specify that +2 is the limit. So, I'd allow +1 from boxing and +1 from Muay Thai to stack, but a third +1 to Unarmed DV from Martial Arts styles would not be allowed -- the character is at the +2 Maximum.

Edit:
And as for Critical Strike being a problem, it *is* limited to Magic Rating in ranks, but yes, it can easily be abused. As I said in my earlier post, it makes for an interesting math problem, but I'm not sure I'd play such a character. Doing 14 or 15 DV unarmed is a bit over the top for a starting character.
Neraph
For your amusement:

Pg. 156, Arsenal: Martial Arts (Positive Quality): 3rd paragraph, first sentence "A character gains the advantages of all martial arts styles she knows; should they overlap, these dice modifiers stack."

I know DV isn't a dice modifier, but that ruling should be implemented as a precedent for DV gains from the same positive quality. If it helps you sleep at night, you can even use the next line and say you can't get the +DV from Martial Arts higher than the weapon skill.
Tarantula
It also doesn't say that you can't stack them together. Since they are referenced as a +1 DV bonus, and not modifying the DV to (Str/2)+1S, then, by RAW they should stack together.
ElFenrir
Last I heard, technically, they DO stack. But I personally keep it at +2 maximum. I mean, I'm a melee fanatic, and I houserule it in my own games, nor do I take more than +2 with martial arts. Between things like bone lacing, critical strike, hardliners, etc, the ''Wise Old Master'' dude with Strength 3 can nail home a rather painfully high DV(as well he should). Say he's got some Bone Density 3(to help with those pesky old age bones), +2 DV martial arts, and a set of hardliners(original rules) ; and the old geezer is smacking you for 7P. That's an assault rifle. If the old geezer is an adept instead, add another 4 to that, at least(even with bone density. That's only .9 essence.) [I did one fun build that ended up as a human with 13 DV unarmed attacks. Mundane with cyber, not even and adept, and I did not take anymore than +2 DV. It's really not needed.]

Also, allowing too many to stack I find leads to the infamous Strength-dump samurai. At least making it count SOMEWHAT sort of helps. It's not the most important thing; Strength 3 and strength 5 is only 1 DV. Then again, the difference between a 3 and a 7 is only 2 DV. So it's not like the 3 sucks. I mean, besides, there are all these other abilities to get, too. Stacking Martial Arts gets you other abilities(extra DV with blades, dice to attacks, defense), AND the ability to get more manuevers which rock, so it's still good to get more martial arts if you want them. I found that no one ever took anything except for the +DV, so it just sounded better to keep it at 2.

It's strange, actually...we play a very laid-back, bit higher-power(750 karma range, no Availability limit at chargen, and we allow you to break augmented maxes with cyber since it's damn hard to anyway) games...but there are certain little things that just sorta ''bug'' me a little bit, and overstacking these DVs is one of them. I can't explain why, because it even makes sense when I think about it-if you're damn good, you don't have to be strong to do a shit-ton of damage to someone. But something just sort of irks me.
Neraph
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 30 2008, 03:49 PM) *
It also doesn't say that you can't stack them together. Since they are referenced as a +1 DV bonus, and not modifying the DV to (Str/2)+1S, then, by RAW they should stack together.


Thank you. Not to mention a better precedent than the one I suggested is acutally the text in parenthesis when it talks about the Boxing or Mui Thai DV, which states 'stacks twice, for total +2' (pretty much). Therefore, it can be theorized that if we get additional +DV, it'd all stack.

Adept, 6 Martial Arts, r4 Bone Density = +12 DV (not including str) at chargen. Stun or Physical, whichever.
sunnyside
While the rules get a little shaky I'm not too worried about high unarmed damage even with fresh characters.

Remember trolls probably hit harder just with good base stats in SR2/3, and that wasn't broken.

Stahlseele
only because even if you were a STR/Bod1 elf but hat 8 dice in unarmed combat you could turn tables on the STR/Bod16 troll if he only had 4 dice in unarmed combat.
if the troll had enough dice in unarmed AND a good combat pool? yeah, even me as a troll-player found that to be somewhat broken from time to time . . got worse once you started silly stuff like troll adepts . . 10D damage against impact armor? even other trolls had a hard time resisting that one
Drogos
But in a game of tactical ranged combat, how much use does the unarmed specialist see?

In our current game, we have two unarmed specialist adepts. They have enough gun skill to make it work, but when we get into combat, the heavy hitters (and they both hit for quite a bit) have a heck of a time closing the distance before the mage and the two sams demolition the opposition with ranged attacks. If we manage to get the drop on someone or we end up in a situation where we are unable to be armed, then yeah, they are at a great advantage over most of the oposition, but isn't that the point?

Shadowrun is all about a cohesive team where sometimes the spotlight shifts to the hyper specialized. For alot of your one hit killing strikes the character has used up all his available advantages, sunk points into a skill that is only useful in specific combat situations that happen to be in the minority and handicapped (to some extent at least) a defining stat in order to bump up their one trick. So horray for you, guy who hits like a ton of bricks. You sunk a good portion of a limited resource into achieving your shtick. Not necessarily a bad thing, heck every character maximizes their strengths while trying to prop up their weaknesses. However, they decided that if they get into melee combat (not necessarily the easiest thing to do), they want to dominate. They are likely going to be pretty weak on the IPs compared to the shooters, they are going to be at a disadvantage against other ranged attackers and groups, and they use a complex action to complete their shtick. They are like close range mages without counterspelling or spirits. Of course, it's your game, play what you like, but further hampering the melee character in a world dominated by firearms only makes it less and less attractive a path.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Neraph @ Sep 30 2008, 10:55 PM) *
Stun or Physical, whichever.

Actually, once you got bone upgrades, you always cause Physical Damage - except when using the Sweep Manuver.
Neraph
My math was flawed earlier... It comes to +14 DV for unarmed attacks.

But that aside, it shouldn't be that hard to close for combat. I made a 400 BP adept that was unarmed spec'd and Gymnastics Dodge spec'd. The entire concept was a le parkour vigilante, and as it turned out he had about roughly 9 dicepool (before full dodging) against ranged attacks. If you really want to try, you can close combat for melee pretty easy. Don't forget to use cover too (no real help in hallways though).
Drogos
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 1 2008, 10:05 AM) *
But that aside, it shouldn't be that hard to close for combat. I made a 400 BP adept that was unarmed spec'd and Gymnastics Dodge spec'd. The entire concept was a le parkour vigilante, and as it turned out he had about roughly 9 dicepool (before full dodging) against ranged attacks. If you really want to try, you can close combat for melee pretty easy. Don't forget to use cover too (no real help in hallways though).

With things like elevation, fire and displace and other standard tactics that trained ranged attackers should use, it can be nearly impossible for the close combat specialist to close. Every round spent full dodging is a round not spent moving toward your target. There are already more obstacles for the CC specialist, why hamper them more. And how much does the guy pay for +14 DV? What does he go without for those same BPs/Karma? I mean yeah, he kills people with one hit, just like the Troll Bowman, the Combat Mage and the Full Auto Sam.
Tarantula
Uh, you can move AND dodge at the same time. Most especially if you're full gymnastics dodging.
Drogos
Well, I'm an idiot biggrin.gif Still, you can't full out run and dodge (iirc). So you're stuck with base move, which they can do as well while shooting. So yeah...
Neraph
I forgot to mention that my guy has walk/run of 20/50. So yeah, he'll catch up. Think Matrix shtuff.
Drogos
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 1 2008, 12:51 PM) *
I forgot to mention that my guy has walk/run of 20/50. So yeah, he'll catch up. Think Matrix shtuff.

Can I ask what else he does? Maybe just a post of the character in it's entirety. Again, I'm not seeing the concept any more damaging than a 2 short burst SMG to the face from the shooter Sam. You hit people like whoa!! You get to kill/incapacitate one person per IP that you have managed to close on. I mean, it's cool and you have one heck of a shtick, but how exactly is it different from the otehr guy doing the same thing with his Mojo or the one using bullets to do it?
Tarantula
Well, you can split melee attacks at multiple people in range with a complex action. And with distance strike, you can have a lot of people in range.
Stahlseele
if it's worth it, with the few dice left O.o
Tarantula
Movement doens't have a melee combat penalty, and charging has a bonus. With martial arts qualities and being an adept, its pretty easy to have a lot of unarmed combat pool. Especially that when you use distance attack, they don't get to use their melee skill to parry it.
Rotbart van Dainig
It's a real shame that you can't use Elemental Strike with Distance Strike - not that the former is actually that useful, but the special effects alone...
Ol' Scratch
I don't get why you can't. It would have filled a niche for the classic Kung Fu Mystic image that is the adept perfectly, it's not anymore unbalanced than either power alone, and is nothing that can't be done better through other means (be it spell or gear like a flamethrower or taser).
Neraph
BURN KNUCKLE!!

Unfortunately, the adept in question really only has dodge, unarmed, like 1 pnt in pistols, a handfull of athletics skills, and gymnastics. He wasn't build to wow, but built for concept. An exercize, really.
Drogos
That's kind of my point, you can hyperspecialize and completely own combat a number of ways, but you can't do much else. Therefore, you are combat, but your team gets to carry you through everything else. I see no problem with it, but I'd advise any of my players against it because it just leads to them being in non combat situations with NOTHING to do, but pick fights which is just a big PITA.
Tarantula
Super melee adepts double real well at B&E, well, at the breaking in part of it anyway.
ElFenrir
Yeah, I've played plenty of melee types, and you can still make them good at other things. They can have ranged backup effectively(for example, a mundane cyber fellow with 7 Agility and Automatics(SMGs) 2(+2) gets 11 dice(13 with smartlink), and 7 agility isn't even that twinky. A natural 5 agility still rolls 11 dice with the gun. You could have archery or thrown weapons, as well.

For those who want a more pure melee build, well, there are still plenty of other skills you can get(infiltration for not being seen/surprises), good Athletics dodge(if cybered, a synthacardium adds to this), and really, the sky is the limit with the points; you could be a combo face, tech, or whatever you want.

Hell, once of my more effective melee characters was an elf face/martial artist. Great social skills to deceive the enemy into closing in(who thinks the pretty-elf face guy can hurt them? Then again, in SR, I hope people aren't *that* gullible all the time), good ware to help both his physical side and his face-side(Agility and Strength modified 7's, ceramic bone lacing, Body of modified 5-with additional bone lacing damage bonus as well, Charisma 6 with some pheremones).

He was awesome, certainly not a one-trick pony, and the original one was even made under the 400 BP system(I admit, the 750 version got even more awesome. grinbig.gif The addition of a bit of stealth and the like. ) Oh yeah, as for pain factor, he hit for 9P damage after all was said and done(4 base +2 Martial Arts, +2 Bone Lacing, +1 Hardliners), rolled 14 dice(15 with Kick Attack) and had six maneuvers. He DID have a 2(+2) Pistols(Semi-Automatics) skill for backup as well, given his role sometimes as a bodyguard. But he rarely uses the gun unless it's really, really needed.

Point is, since melee isn't terribly skill intensive-get the melee skill of choice and some martial arts to go with it, good Dodge or Gymnastics dodge, and if cyber, appropriate ware-if adept, appropriate powers, and you can give them about any secondary stuff and make them highly effective.

No one combat build is ''perfect.'' Even Mr. Super Automatics has some of his own drawbacks. Melee can have it a bit tough sometimes but it's far from useless; you just need to make sure you have a few tricks up your sleeve.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Oct 2 2008, 01:30 AM) *
I don't get why you can't.

Ask the devs - they ruled it out in Street Magic.
Tarantula
You can't, because they didn't want hadoukens in their game.
Stahlseele
Fighter-doken>hadouken anyway ^^
Cue Master Blaster or Colossus and Wolverine Character Concept with the Troll being a throwing Adept and the Dwarf being all close-combat . .
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