Lifestyle Issue., A treatise on the street. Options

[Cantankerous]

It's a shame that they convinced you, and more so that you convinced him to do this.

Well within the bounds of usage and common sense is the man who will simply by god have nothing to do with technology. They are called Neo-Luddites and they actually bloody exist. They don't need the fall back of being Amish either for Christ sake.

In Shadowrun a Street Shaman who does this is EASILY seeable and still just about as bloody useful as any other eccentric in the group. So, the guy is a Runner, he knows he has to be available and wants nothing to do with tech? Easy. It may take a while, but hey, simplicity itself. One or more folks in the team know a contact of his that the guy checks in with, maybe via Spirit, frequently. Not tough, and it gives him his freedom. If he's living out in the barrens or even under a friggin' bridge in the downtown, doesn't matter. So he gets occasionally picked up by or hassled by the man. That IS life on the Streets in 2040+, it happens, and when it does it's a pain in the rump. But unless he's just pissed on a major player, be it Corp, Government, Yak or whatever, he better being laying very low anyway and as a true Street person there simply ARE less traces of him to be found in any case. Where is the fraggin' problem with this?

He's not instantly available. Ok. So? The character misses out on some opportunities. Yep, he does. PERIOD, full stop, the man will miss out on things. That was his choice. As a GM I'm trying to accommodate my Players desires. I'm not trying to use logic as an excuse to hide behind about why I can't! People, there are friggin' dragons in the game. There is active and accepted magic! If you are going to hide behind the flimsy facade of logic as to why you as GM can't do something that is NOT unreasonable and doesn't grant advantages incommensurate to the their converse, then you might just as well get rid of the fraggin' dragons and the magic and the bloody whole shebang.


Isshia

[Fuchs]

Would you force any player to have his PC go out of character to work with such a neo-luddite? Despite all the disadvantages?

I can't see many professional runners who would work with such a character.

[Cantankerous]

Would you force any player to have his PC go out of character to work with such a neo-luddite? Despite all the disadvantages?

I can't see many professional runners who would work with such a character.

I can see many. Accepting the fact that sometimes he might not be available is just also part of the game, part of the Runners life. People don't just sit around waiting to be called. That's metagamey. Sometimes they are working on other things when they get the call they can get so easily, because they have more input.

Make them do it? HELL NO!!! But then when the characters are getting made the Players aren't existing in a vacuum. They are adult enough to know that if they present a concept for a character that the other Players don't want to have to deal with, that a compromise will HAVE TO be be made, or the concept gets scrapped. And this is with ANY concept, be that concept what it may. Including the one often seen as a "Runner " archetype, the "psychopath" personality.

We usually try to accommodate one another and my players know that I won't punish them for being creative by withholding scenarios because they couldn't get hold of guy X when, ultimately, I as GM am the one dictating how hard he IS to get hold of.


Isshia

[Tarantula]

In my campaign, that kind of overwatch is limited to high security areas, not the average districts. The kind of areas where you are expected to be broadcasting a SIN. And where the bribes come from the "upstanding" citizens. And I expect that Overwatch would switch attention to the Cops calling in a "check of no SIN broadcast" just to watch out for those kind of trouble - they won't monitor cops all the time. But in a high-security zone, there won't be too many non-SIN-broadcasting people anyway.

How do runs ever get pulled off in those areas if there is this kind of overwatch present? Why doesn't overwatch just do a quick check on SINs in the entire area to see if they're valid? That'd keep all shadowrunners out, since the usefulness of a SIN is pratically nothing when it actually gets checked.

[Tarantula]

It's a shame that they convinced you, and more so that you convinced him to do this.

Well within the bounds of usage and common sense is the man who will simply by god have nothing to do with technology. They are called Neo-Luddites and they actually bloody exist. They don't need the fall back of being Amish either for Christ sake.

And if you'd like to be one, you'd best be taking incompetent in at least computers, if not multiple skills, as neo-luddites are given as an example for that.

In Shadowrun a Street Shaman who does this is EASILY seeable and still just about as bloody useful as any other eccentric in the group. So, the guy is a Runner, he knows he has to be available and wants nothing to do with tech? Easy. It may take a while, but hey, simplicity itself. One or more folks in the team know a contact of his that the guy checks in with, maybe via Spirit, frequently. Not tough, and it gives him his freedom. If he's living out in the barrens or even under a friggin' bridge in the downtown, doesn't matter. So he gets occasionally picked up by or hassled by the man. That IS life on the Streets in 2040+, it happens, and when it does it's a pain in the rump. But unless he's just pissed on a major player, be it Corp, Government, Yak or whatever, he better being laying very low anyway and as a true Street person there simply ARE less traces of him to be found in any case. Where is the fraggin' problem with this?

As any other eccentric? Sure. As useful as a pro? Not a chance, hes unreliable to be found, or maybe he got thrown in jail for the night.

He's not instantly available. Ok. So? The character misses out on some opportunities. Yep, he does. PERIOD, full stop, the man will miss out on things. That was his choice. As a GM I'm trying to accommodate my Players desires. I'm not trying to use logic as an excuse to hide behind about why I can't! People, there are friggin' dragons in the game. There is active and accepted magic! If you are going to hide behind the flimsy facade of logic as to why you as GM can't do something that is NOT unreasonable and doesn't grant advantages incommensurate to the their converse, then you might just as well get rid of the fraggin' dragons and the magic and the bloody whole shebang.

Not much fun for the player to show up to play, not get a phone call, and just sit watching you guys play the rest of the night. As a GM, you should let him do it if he wants to yes.... but you should also let him know, he might not always be involved, and that would suck.

I can see many. Accepting the fact that sometimes he might not be available is just also part of the game, part of the Runners life. People don't just sit around waiting to be called. That's metagamey. Sometimes they are working on other things when they get the call they can get so easily, because they have more input.

No, they don't sit around, they live their life hoping someone finds them a job.

Make them do it? HELL NO!!! But then when the characters are getting made the Players aren't existing in a vacuum. They are adult enough to know that if they present a concept for a character that the other Players don't want to have to deal with, that a compromise will HAVE TO be be made, or the concept gets scrapped. And this is with ANY concept, be that concept what it may. Including the one often seen as a "Runner " archetype, the "psychopath" personality.

No one said force the player to get one. We advised him to explain the hardships of not having one, and how that would be very inconvienient.

We usually try to accommodate one another and my players know that I won't punish them for being creative by withholding scenarios because they couldn't get hold of guy X when, ultimately, I as GM am the one dictating how hard he IS to get hold of.

Accommodating is one thing. If I choose to play a quadriplegic with a permanent hospital lifestyle, what runs would you let me go on? No, I'm not awakened, nor a TM, and no hacking/computer skills at all. Can I play? No? But you said you were accommodating.

[Fuchs]

We do not use the SIN check rules as written, so fake SINs hold up better.

[Tarantula]

We do not use the SIN check rules as written, so fake SINs hold up better.

You can't not have a sin cause you will get screwed, but we made fake sins work better so its ok to screw people without one worse. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Fuchs]

Yes. I want people to either have a fake SIN, or a regular SIN to walk around in high-security areas.

[Tarantula]

My point is, you ramped up security because you changed how fake sins work.

My discussion is from how the rules are written, in which fake sins aren't that good, and as such, you'd be stopping and questioning people for "possibly invalid sins" necessitating a lot more overwatch personal, or less overwatch overall.

[Cantankerous]

As any other eccentric? Sure. As useful as a pro? Not a chance, hes unreliable to be found, or maybe he got thrown in jail for the night.

IMO time again.


Ohh come on man, think outside of the box. He IS a professional...and as professional as any other Runner. He just has a different quirk. All he needs to be just as useful as any Street Sam doing his Street Sammie things or Hacker doing his is a bit of creativity. THAT is what gets stressed anyway, that is what role playing is all about.

So, he's not in the hospital for three weeks at a time getting new cyberware crammed in his butt. He's no more, and maybe less, likely to be busy than any other guy just waiting for a job, which is what he is doing as well. The "Pro" does not sit around his doss all day either. He gets involved in other things, sometimes little things, like working for the local gang boss as an enforcer to keep them as informal security for his doss. Or whatever else have you. You may be able to get him on the phone in ten seconds instead of getting contacted by a spirit in three hours, but the guy is ready to go, not tied up playing security guard. Keeping permanent things and a permanent place and all the other stuff that goes with maintaining the "Pro" lifestyle also has it's flip side.

And hey, your Pro sitting around waiting for a job has no hobbies? No life outside of Running? That is being a Pro?

That is being a metagame archetype, not a pro.


Isshia

[Fuchs]

I'd not be worried about him being incommunicando as much as about him being a liability on any run due to his unwillingness to use standard gear for communciation and information sharing.

[WiredWeasel]

Like I said, I've talked to him and gotten it clarified a little more. He's not Amish, or a Luddite, he's not even an actual technophobe, his character just doesn't like high tech. He'll use it if he has to (which is why he will have a crappy commlink, out of necessity...he'll barely touch the thing.) He just wants to focus on his pursuit of magic, and his character does this by basically going all "vow of poverty" "buddhist monk" style. He wants to own nothing he didn't make and focus on improving his magic. Now this I'm cool with. I've explained that he was given a commlink and fake SIN by the hacker in the group so they can communicate with him and he can stay in touch or runs ( I still had him buy it with his points at chargen, because to me making the hacker give him something that he spent points on so that the Shaman didn't have to spent character points is a cop-out on the Shaman's part) but he doesn't feel the commlink is "his." The Hacker just lets him use it so he can function with the group, so he still falls into his own belief set. This I'm fine with, any of the foci he'll buy at chargen will be considered to be made by him, and he'll be making sure he has the ability to make more as his character. So yeah, we've found a middle ground which is workable...his character is still eccentric, but workable with no game snags to slow the story done et all.

[Cantankerous]

I'd not be worried about him being incommunicando as much as about him being a liability on any run due to his unwillingness to use standard gear for communciation and information sharing.

Which is where you need creativity. A simple fix might be to simply always have him partnered up with someone else who DOES use the "standard gear".

Is it a limitation to have such a person? Sure! Can it be an advantage in certain situation? Sure, I can think of several wherein his penchant for doffing tech could be a help. As many as the converse? No, no way. But where they might they might well be hugely important. Hey, they have something like quickening in 4th edition too yes? How about the Mindlink spell? (Sorry, my 4th edition Core Book is out on loan.) How about that for an organic "fix" for the problem?


Isshia

[Cantankerous]

Like I said, I've talked to him and gotten it clarified a little more. He's not Amish, or a Luddite, he's not even an actual technophobe, his character just doesn't like high tech. He'll use it if he has to (which is why he will have a crappy commlink, out of necessity...he'll barely touch the thing.) He just wants to focus on his pursuit of magic, and his character does this by basically going all "vow of poverty" "buddhist monk" style. He wants to own nothing he didn't make and focus on improving his magic. Now this I'm cool with. I've explained that he was given a commlink and fake SIN by the hacker in the group so they can communicate with him and he can stay in touch or runs ( I still had him buy it with his points at chargen, because to me making the hacker give him something that he spent points on so that the Shaman didn't have to spent character points is a cop-out on the Shaman's part) but he doesn't feel the commlink is "his." The Hacker just lets him use it so he can function with the group, so he still falls into his own belief set. This I'm fine with, any of the foci he'll buy at chargen will be considered to be made by him, and he'll be making sure he has the ability to make more as his character. So yeah, we've found a middle ground which is workable...his character is still eccentric, but workable with no game snags to slow the story done et all.

This does sound good. Damned good in fact. Everybody gets to fulfill their ideals and everyone's happy. Win/win.


Isshia

[Tarantula]

Which is where you need creativity. A simple fix might be to simply always have him partnered up with someone else who DOES use the "standard gear".

Not always able to be used. But it would work most of the time.

Is it a limitation to have such a person? Sure! Can it be an advantage in certain situation? Sure, I can think of several wherein his penchant for doffing tech could be a help. As many as the converse? No, no way. But where they might they might well be hugely important. Hey, they have something like quickening in 4th edition too yes? How about the Mindlink spell? How about that for an organic "fix" for the problem?

I would love to hear your situations in which not having tech helps.

Quickening still lights you up on the astral, and I don't know about you, but I'd like to make sure I get along real good with someone before they put a near-permanent telepathic connection between us. Still a problem when wards are around.

[WiredWeasel]

Okay, got a question, since it seems to come up so often in this topic. How readily apparent is the mage in a group anyway? From the way some of the posts are going it sounds like you couldn't make a stealthy mage, they raise too many "magic flags" That seems kinda off to me, I would figure you could make a magic infiltartion expert as easily as a tech one.

[Fuchs]

Spelsl are visible on the astral, and so any astral patrol (spirit, mage) can detect them. Wards also block quickened/sustained spells from passing through, and serve as alarms when broken through.

[Tarantula]

Spelsl are visible on the astral, and so any astral patrol (spirit, mage) can detect them. Wards also block quickened/sustained spells from passing through, and serve as alarms when broken through.

By the same token, guns are visible on the physical, so any physical patrol (guards, animals) can detect them. Doors also block you from passing through, and can serve as alarms when broken through.

If you have so much astral security that a mage can't possibly sneak in, all the time, thats a game choice you've made as GM to make magic weaker via having more security against it.

[Fuchs]

Not all the time, but any high-security facility will be warded, and astrally patrolled. And you won't be able to use invisibility or physical mask to sneak onto a party of the upper class. The goal is to make those places locations where you need a tam, and not just a few spells, to get into.

By allowing magic to be the answer to everything, and ignoring obvious conters, you make the choice as a GM to have magic be more powerful.

[Tarantula]

You make it sound as if the astral patrols are entirely unavoidable. And, astral patrols can screw regular infiltration just as well. So how does the non-magical guy avoid getting spotted?

[Cantankerous]

EM Pulse for one. Ohhh, not something standard? You bet ya it isn't. Take away a thing a person relies on, like communications technology, and they are MUCH more up the creek than someone for whom it never was a big deal. Some of our corps set up negative zones just outside of important facilities. Places where tight scrambling technology is employed to louse up the day of those not prepared for it. In such areas the Corp of course, has IT'S people ready for the situation.

As to the problem with astral space and glow effect, you just covered it in your reply to Fuchs. If you are going to nerf magic and let tech stand as is, of course tech rules. If you find ways of limiting those pretty tech toys too though (and what corp will avoid THAT certain edge against Runners) you've got a different ball game.

Over reliance on ANY edge will sooner or later turn around and bite you in the posterior.


Isshia

[Tarantula]

Oh no? No you can't communicate with your team. Where as the other option shown........ you couldn't communicate with your team.

I fail to see how having something that could be disrupted is worse than not having it at all.

[Cantankerous]

Oh no? No you can't communicate with your team. Where as the other option shown........ you couldn't communicate with your team.

I fail to see how having something that could be disrupted is worse than not having it at all.

Over reliance. Watch what happens with a boxer who relies on a his hand speed being quicker and isn't flexible because he has ALWAYS had the hand speed edge. Put him in a situation where he doesn't and he self destructs, even if he had tons of other advantages with the guy. You REALLY get to see this in certain heavy tactics games, like D&D, where if you put a tank in against something intangible he's utterly stymied.

The guy who isn't used to working within the framework of constant communication doesn't miss it when it's gone. The others do. They VERY LIKELY expend time and attempts t rectify THAT situation, because they are taken out of their comfort zone.

I've seen this in a D&D game where the party usually operated as two separate groups (and often gamed on separate nights as well) where one bunch was used to mind linking before every combat because they relied so heavily on mobility and positioning. The other group did the same except they used a regional dialect (from the distant south) that they all knew that was hugely uncommon in the uncharted north, which was where the two fights I'm about to reference took place. Both found themselves in a magic dead zone and even though the group that wasn't used to using mind link had two mages (the other group had just one) they went along without a hitch while the other team was stymied by the fact that they weren't able to have that constant and nigh instantaneous communication. It was amazing to watch.

The simile here is simple, magic was the stymied groups "technology" and when it was taken away they were just plain stuck...at first, they recovered and did ok, retreated and thought things through, while the "non-tech" team just forged on ahead as always.

Over reliance on ANY edge can hide a trap within it.


Isshia

[Tarantula]

Over reliance. Watch what happens with a boxer who relies on a his hand speed being quicker and isn't flexible because he has ALWAYS had the hand speed edge. Put him in a situation where he doesn't and he self destructs, even if he had tons of other advantages with the guy. You REALLY get to see this in certain heavy tactics games, like D&D, where if you put a tank in against something intangible he's utterly stymied.

The guy who isn't used to working within the framework of constant communication doesn't miss it when it's gone. The others do. They VERY LIKELY expend time and attempts t rectify THAT situation, because they are taken out of their comfort zone.

I've seen this in a D&D game where the party usually operated as two separate groups (and often gamed on separate nights as well) where one bunch was used to mind linking before every combat because they relied so heavily on mobility and positioning. The other group did the same except they used a regional dialect (from the distant south) that they all knew that was hugely uncommon in the uncharted north, which was where the two fights I'm about to reference took place. Both found themselves in a magic dead zone and even though the group that wasn't used to using mind link had two mages (the other group had just one) they went along without a hitch while the other team was stymied by the fact that they weren't able to have that constant and nigh instantaneous communication. It was amazing to watch.

The simile here is simple, magic was the stymied groups "technology" and when it was taken away they were just plain stuck...at first, they recovered and did ok, retreated and thought things through, while the "non-tech" team just forged on ahead as always.

Over reliance on ANY edge can hide a trap within it.

And in the example you gave for shadowrun... we have a team with everyone able to use commlinks to communicate. In comparison to a team with everyone but one ablet o use commlinks to communicate.

Team 1 loses the ability to use their comms, now they can't talk to each other.
Team 2 loses the ability to use their comms, now they can't talk to each other, and still can't talk to that one guy.

I'm just saying, you lose nothing by having the ability to use the comm network if you want to use it. Having options is good, eliminating them for no reason is bad.

[JeffSz]

I have a solution your player might really like.

Have him buy a Pager, hacked to run on the current matrix. It's so oldschool, it's like carrying a calculator, and it's probably soldered and taped and crappy looking, but it'll work. He probably won't mind it, as it's so low-tech.

Then have your team's hacker keep a spare commlink of his own that he hands the mage when they're going on a run, for communication and info sharing. Rule that the hacker has control of the commlink (it's slaved to his own) so he can display things on the screen, etc. so the mage doesn't have to know what he's doing. When the run's over, he gives back the tech.

The PC can then say that no, he does NOT own a commlink. He simply borrows someone else's as a tool for the job.

Meta-game have the PC's player pay nuyen for the equipment, so as not to inconvenience the hacker's player, but in-game the equipment belongs to the player.