Alright, I'm wondering how on or off the grid should a shadowrunner be? Just how unplugged can you be and still function as a decent runner?
I ask because one of the characters in my group wants basically no gear, and is adamant on a street lifestyle. He's the magic oomph in the group and is the Street Shaman.
Okay, on a character background and development level I have no problem with this, my problem is how much will this hinder him, or hinder the game? Am I overthinking this? He may pick up a few magical goods but wants nothing else. He really hates the idea of even a beat-up taped together commlink and would rather have none. He's also taken the computer illiterate neg. quality. He's all magic and spirits, so it could work, but I'm concerned.
So yeah, how hard is it to be a good mage runner and basically be homeless and penniless? Also feel free to openly discuss any weird lifestyle issues your players might have brought up. It's always good to have perspective.

It's perfectly acceptable for him to not want to use VR, AR, etc. I ran a game with a character who had no commlink. It can work, if he's adamant. But he's got to give you a REALLY freaking good reason. "I just don't want one" isn't good enough. "I'm going all-magic" isn't good enough. He's got to have an anti-tech religion, like the Amish, or else have a (custom-tailored) strange neg. quality that actually causes electronics to go "fizzle" when he touches them. (this could be a cool quality!)

There's only one major drawback that can railroad everything. Communication.

The other characters will likely be using subvocal mics to talk to each other, or other types of commlink communication. They pass information to each other, including files on the target or schematics of a compound. Chances are they won't always have the opportunity to make hardcopy printouts on soypaper just so he can look at the map too.

He'll be going in blind, without a way to talk to his teammates.

The character in my game ended up getting a crappy commlink when the rest of the party decided he needed one. Chances are the guy's friends would either insist he get something... or work without him.

I suggest you let him try without one. A single missed "we're fragged, get out of there!" text message or, less deadly, a few hours playing where his character is left out 50% of the time because the other characters are chatting on comms... he'll probably go buy one.

As stated above, in a standard city-based campaign he would basically need at least a basic plain-Jane commlink. If the player thinks even that is too matrix-like, point out that it is really just an iPhone. This would let people call him if they are on his do-not-block list, and he could use the screen to look at maps, and messages. A utility could even convert sub-vocal message from others as text, if he does not want an earbud mic.

Now if the campaign is less standard, out of the city stuff, it would be more up to the rest of the team.

The character would be a very cool solo character or contact though (see the very cool Ghost Dog: The Way of the Samurai for an unusual Street Sam)

He could always do the mindlink thing to get around communication issues.

Which is great if he doesn't mind taking the penalty on maintaining a spell, burn karma on a quickened, or spend Nuyen on a focus. Seems like one step forward about 5 steps back if he doesn't want to spend the 100ish nuyen on some crap system but does want to buy a focus (and wouldn't he have to burn karma to bond it?) to use something like that.

Also keep in mind that alot of places require you to broadcast your SIN via a PAN. Since he has no commlink, he has no PAN, thus he can't have fake SINs either.

Think of this guy as the rough equivilent of someone today who doesn't own a cellphone, has no credit card, or drivers license, or bank account, or ID card, or anything but the clothing on his back. Then magnify the problem by the fact that no one accepts hard currency for anything, and that your required to show your ID to every passing police officer.

He'll have difficulty moving around, and he'll be completely out of touch with the rest of the team. No colaboration on planning done via commlinks (most is thanks to nifty ARrows and such to illustrate points). Add on top of this no communicating with the rest of the team during a run unless he shouts and gives away his position, or is standing right next to someone else.

So yes, if he wants to not have a commlink, he is going to have tons and tons of problems. Hell, he might miss out on runs entirely because noone could contact his hermit ass. Street lifestyle means no fixed address, and no commlink means no way to call him. The team going to send up smoke signals every time they need him.


The bottom line is he needs to get a commlink. Even if he has to get the hacker to set it up for him and he can't turn it on without help, he needs to have one. Even a total techno-moron can push the big green button to answer an incoming call, or maybe even have it set up to answer them automatically.

If someone wants to not use tech at all in a world dominated by tech, feel free to make their lives hell.

If he wants to play a character who doesn't use tech, then yeah, thats what he'd have to do to get around it. Point is, there are ways to get around it.


Only if they know you're there. Imp Invis, and other such spells keep you from even showing up.


Except he has an ace in the hole. Magic. Police officer, "I need to see your sin." Mage: *casts influence* "No you don't, I'm fine here."


Levitate, imp invis, even shapechange can let mages move around just fine without a commlink. As I said above, mindlink works great for communication during a run, or manifesting. Since you can choose who you manifest to.


I wouldn't say tons and tons of problems. He could have a bound spirit he assigns to someone with "relay messages from him to me via our magical link." Spirit just has to hang out in a closet or something in that guys house. Easy as pie to get a message to the mage.


No, he doesn't. Magic pretty much wins, and you don't need to have a commlink to get around and be effective. Will it help? Sure. But is it a death sentence? No.

Well, I never said it was a death sentence, but did you notice how you had to list about 5 spells and the use of a spirit to make up for not having a commlink? I'd say that's making the guy's life hell. Sure, he can get around just fine if he maintains 2-3 spells all the time. The fact that he has no money means not having a means to spend money isn't that big of a deal.

So, is it possible? Sure. Is it going to be a massive pain? Yes. Is it really worth it? Only if you really really really really really really want your character to not have a commlink for some reason. 5 spells and using spirits vs buying an old piece of junk commlink. You decide.

Most mages run around with improved invis anyway. Levitate too. As far as having the spirit... the mage could equally just astrally project over to his buddies place, and manifest, and see if theres any work coming up.

Not to mention, the mage could just live in the slums, where there are lots of SINless, and people still take hard currency.

Thanks guys, part of me just needed to know I was tearing my hair out for no reason, b ut yeah, he's stubborn. Part of it is he doesn't know the game world and almost has an "I don't give a rat's ass about knowing the world, this is what I wanna do." I don't know whether to just sit him down and MAKE him read a little fluff, or try and explain the importance of having a 'link and a fake SIN, or just let him run the gauntlet, trial by fire style, and see how much or a pain in the ass it truly is. I'm afraid he'll get pissy if I do the last saying that I'm singling him out on purpose.
He's dead set on the character being a technophobe, and I don't know how to make it work, or get him to see reason. I know he could make up for a lot of it with spells, but then he's taken a lot of spells just so that he can be a functional member of the team, but will leave less room for other spells to make him a valuable member of the team.

sounds like you've tried to explain it to him. Time to just show him. Maybe when he starts getting whiny about you "singling him out" you could point out that he could go out and buy a fake sin and cheapo commlink for 1300 nuyen, and that would solve a lot of his day-to-day hassles.

You're right, starting to seem like that's the only way to go,sadly.

You may also want to point out that neighborhoods Middle Class and above will require him to broadcast a SIN and ID. It's not a police officer asking you at a random stop, it's drones and built in security scanning everything.

Neighborhoods that don't require a SIN are often in areas that have a background count. Street class neighborhoods should almost always have a background count (think Redmond barrens/Puyallup barrens) just from the misery of the folks living there. Shaman generally don't like background counts. Even a level 1 means no watcher spirits. His magic attribute will also be lower. And as for communicating with his team via an astral trip -- well, is he going to leave his body in the cardboard box while he does so? Hmm... that'd be a short-lived character. And a GM is perfectly within his rights to have a spirit summoned in an area of background count use its edge to resist the summoning.

If the team needs to meet a Mr. Johnson at a upscale place, say a club in downtown, he'd need a commlink to broadcast an ID. Chances are the club, or at least the meeting room, will be warded, so no going in astrally with the team while his body stays in the car.

And no chances that if the rest of the team are out getting drinks and an urgent job comes up, he'll be in on it -- are they really going to take the time to go drive to whatever barrens he's living in and search for his box? Or are they going to the meet/job?

Bottom line: if he wants to be a good runner, rather than a ganger living in the barrens, he's going to need a commlink and an ID (not necessarily his own ID).

Well put tiger.

And as to the fact that most mages get improved invis and levitation and such anyway. Yes, thats true, but they don't generally need to keep those two spells and an additional one up constantly just to function.

I mean sure I could play a quadriplegic mage that levitates everywhere (Would be kinda cool actually) And I could still function. But that would be a constant -2 to everything I do if I don't feel like getting dumped on the ground. So sure, it is possible, and perhaps a drone wheelchair would help. But the end result is that you get a less effective character.

Maybe that isn't the greatest example ever. In fact it is very mild compared to what this guy is trying to do. I say if he is being stubborn about it you let him try it. I'm sure he'll run to the local Stuffer Shack or wherever and pick up some junk commlink by the end of the first game session. Especially when it starts "Sorry, your mage has no way of being contacted and the guys didn't feel like searching for your box, so you don't get to be involved in this mission."

I also like the idea of the mage getting eaten by a devil rat while trying to find out about a mission. edit: Because he is astral projecting from a cardboard box in redmond.

Thanks again, everybody. I got to sit down and tell him all the points you laid out in here, (many of which I had told him already, but having a large amount of others saying the same helps a ton) and he's starting to understand. He's finally down with the idea of having a crappy commlink and a fake SIN just to get the job done. (The Hacker player in the group said he'd even front the fake SIN and commlink just so he'd have one, but it'd be the Shadowrun equivalent to a Hello Kitty or Pretty Pretty Princess commlink. This made me laugh, since the Shaman is a Fomori and all.)
In his defense, his vision for the character somewhat makes sense. His character purposes has no lifestyle or gear in order to keep him more focused on his magic, kind of like a monk, or some tribal shamen who get rid of worldy attachments to bring them closer to the spirits and the land. It's just his chosen land is the street, his chosen jungle is an urban one. Which is kinda cool, I've always dug the idea of a street shamen who looks at the sprawl as it's own jungle, just of concrete and steel, not wood.
So, we're that much closer to meeting in the middle. Any other good ideas I can put across to him? I don't wnat to have him sacrifice his character concept, but how can we make a good runner without losing the gritty street level mage idea? Maybe convince him to ask WWTDD (What would Tyler Durden Do?) and make a Tyler Durdenesque Character, but with magic and spirits? I dunno...whattaya think?

And just as a shaman who is in a real jungle needs a good set of warm clothing (thinking fur cape or something) and a decent shelter, a shaman in an urban jungle needs a commlink.

Just as a hunter needs a bow and arrow for his quarry, a runner needs a gun for his victims.

Just as a rabbit needs its hole, a runner needs his safehouse.

So yeah, if he thinks of the urban landscape as his 'environment' he has to realize that it is innately different from a forest and that it requires different 'basic necessities' to survive, a commlink being one of these necessities.

A mage with improved invisibility and no technological means to make sure his team mates can see him (signal locator, etc.) would face a lot of danger from friendly fire in my game. Also, if magic is rare, then all those spells and spirits will draw a lot of attention, and the astral signature would need to be amsked all the time, everywhere. If magic is not that rare, then the odds of an influence on a cop getting detected by an astrally capable opponent are bigger.

Really? Cause generally invis mages just hide behind cover and throw spells. They don't usually make a habit of prancing about inbetween their teammates and targets.

Oh, as far as getting caught? It takes a few combat turns to erase a signature. Throw a force 3influence on the cop, then spend 9 seconds as you say have a nice day and whatnot to erase the sig. Or just 3 seconds if you have astral chameleon.

my first sr character was a decker (yeah old school) that lived on the street. One thing he had was a darn good commlink (back then it was phones). Otherwise how would he work with his team? get jobs? get a call when the lastest head'wares came in so he could scoop it up? He lived the street lifestyle (slightly modded) until I retired him (~200karma). The only difference from 0karma and 100karma was he bought a used MPUV (think hummer) that he converted into his stash house/mobile home/hack-the-code-room/etc. He would park it in the dingiest of street corners and live in it. Well until his team refused to let him do that anymore and he would park it in one of their driveways (taking turns on who got him).

so living on the street doesnt mean you dont have a phone (err commlink).

The homeless guy that lives in the trees over by the onramp to the highway near my house has a "go fone" cellphone. Dont know who he calls but even he has one. I know he has minutes on it (at least a few) since he called the local waffle house to place a togo order (must have been a good day panhandling).

If the player is feels strongly about not having one, dont make them have one. But when you call the team, just look at them and say "oops.. nevermind they cant call you.." then turn your head to the next person. And the players will do similar things.

EDIT: added the below lines..

now true could do spells/spirits/etc to do communication. But under most instances it would be convenient or easy. I dont tell my players you get 9.2 days off until the next run. I just start asking them about what they are doing then surprise the run on them when they work their downtime up to the designated time. Now how will he know when to get back in contact? When the fixer calls about a job with a johnson, I generally only give a couple hours til the meet (sometimes less than a hour). Which gives the team enough time to call each other, grab their "meet with johnson gear" and to the meet. If I am nice they have time to stake the place out for ~30 minutes prior to meet. I never call on tuesday for a meet on friday.

do whatever you feel is best..

remember this is a game that we all are trying to have fun at.

Yes, really. The mages might not want to make a habit out of prancing between enemies and allies, but no one usually tells the enemies not to change their positions, and in a moving battle - which most of our battles are, if you get pinned down as a runner you're generally dead/caught since the opposition has more firepower on the way - you can't always take cover. Or you take cover, invisible, and get flattened because the troll dove for that same cover too. Or you get caught in some grenade attack, or by a drone laying down suppressive fire.
The idea that you can effectively work with an invisible team mate without knowing where he is, for any length of time, in a moving battle without running into problems or friendly fire seems rather strange.

Re: Magic as replacement SIN: Magic is not that hard to spot. Every cast you do runs a risk of getting spotted - and you can count on it being recorded as well. Also, nine seconds is a rather large amount of time to spend on a cop after throwing an influence on him (and his partner). Not to mention that anyone on overhead watch might find something suspicious if a patrol gets "hand waved" by a suspicious looking person. At least anyone with half a brain would think it suspsicious that sensors report a missing SIN broadcast, yet the patrol lets it slide - especially if coupled with the usualy attire and smell of a street life style in such areas where broadcasting SINs is needed.

And, if the mage is smart, he'll continue to move around so that he stays out of the way of friendly fire. Or away from cover that big troll is heading for.
Having cover generally would keep you safe from grenades, as long as no one else is in the same area. And cover protects entirely from suppressive fire.
Not ot mention, I did say levitate also. How many guys make habits of shooting at the ceiling in your combats?


Getting spotted? You mean by random people hanging around? Or by magical police?

Record what? That you looked at the police guy funny? Sure, overhead watch might think it suspicious. Which might get the cops busted. Cause as far as the cops know (unless they resist it), is it was their own idea.

And, imp invis prevents the mage from being stopped at all.

You're rather soft with your mages if the mage can react faster than the troll samurai diving for new cover when his old cover is turning into a grenade landing zone, and get out of the way of the troll in time. Or if a few drones fly past, to shoot at the runners from behind, to dodge the troll's fire at the drones (or the riccochets) heading his way? And if he also can always keep up with the team, and keep in contact with them through more magic. And tell them when he needs help, and where. And of course if the group doesn't get attacked, ever, by either invisible, concealed, or ruthenium-polymer using foes, which would make the group use alternate means of detection - like spatial recognisers, whcih would no differ between the foes and the mage.
I try to imagine a team moving with a member they cannot see, and I can only come up with a recipe for disaster for many occasions. At the very least it'll slow them down, sicne they need to make sure the mage is with them before moving on each time - or risk leaving the mage behind by accident. And don't get me started on possible trouble with a stunned mage, still invisible thanks to his focus, and the team searching for the guy... under fire...

Also, if you're overhead watch doesn't immediately think "magic" when a poster boy for "suspect" (non-broadcasting, not-corp-looking) is not getting checked by a patrol, but instead get let through, then your NPCs don't have much sense.

Moving around invisible doesn't work with wards, and will attract a lot of attention from astral patrols - and anyone with sensors not fooled by it, like a dog's nose.

In my campaign, magic simply is not the be all end all - because my NPCs know that magic exists, and have taken appropriate counter measures in many cases.

First, there is no damage from a troll running over to where you are to take cover. I'm pretty sure it'd be very easy to use 1 meter of your movement for the turn, to take a step so he doesn't land on you. Though, even if he does, it doesn't cause damage.


Even when the cop says "Oh, that was my sisters kid, he forgot his link at home again. Needs to stop going to the barrens to show how 'cool' he is." Cause you could influence him that way instead.


Masking is your friend. And so is physical mask. Since I dn't know how a dog reacts when he smells something but doesn't see it, I can only assume at the worst, he'd start sniffing the trail and follow the mage. Oh, wait, the mage is levitating up near the ceiling. Good luck.


I'm curious, what would your "overwatch" do if the cop said that? Go, "no, its not your sisters kid, you've been tricked fool, go nab him". Then find out the kid actually was his kid? Or the mage could do an influence that hes an undercover cop, and the one stopping him has worked with him before. What would happen then?

In my campaign, any such answer would be easily checked by overwatch. "Oh, he doesn't have a sister?"/"Is fresh from the academy and with his first partner? Has never worked with an undercover cop?"/"the kid is actualyl at school right now?" *orders hovering drones to start sniping the magical attacker*.
That's just a consequence by the fact that magic exists, and that such spells exist - I consider my NPCs having adapted her protocols and systems to those threats. And many of my NPCs are afraid of getting mind raped, or otherwise magically assaulted. And of course dogs would generally be trained to bark at invisible people - and people know enough to react to it.

Would such stuff come up everytime? No, but enough of the time to make sure that just as a team needs a mage to succeed, a team can't succeed with just magic. Certainly not in a high-security zone.

And none of my players would assume that you'd not take any damage from 400 kg of troll landing on you.

How would you train a dog to bark at an invisible person? They'd bark everytime they smelled a persons trail but couldn't see them.

So, how do cops ever take a bribe if they have that level of overwatch? I really doubt theres a dedicated guy to every cop to fact check everything the cop or his subjects say.

How expansive is your overwatch?

In my campaign, that kind of overwatch is limited to high security areas, not the average districts. The kind of areas where you are expected to be broadcasting a SIN. And where the bribes come from the "upstanding" citizens. And I expect that Overwatch would switch attention to the Cops calling in a "check of no SIN broadcast" just to watch out for those kind of trouble - they won't monitor cops all the time. But in a high-security zone, there won't be too many non-SIN-broadcasting people anyway.

It's a shame that they convinced you, and more so that you convinced him to do this.

Well within the bounds of usage and common sense is the man who will simply by god have nothing to do with technology. They are called Neo-Luddites and they actually bloody exist. They don't need the fall back of being Amish either for Christ sake.

In Shadowrun a Street Shaman who does this is EASILY seeable and still just about as bloody useful as any other eccentric in the group. So, the guy is a Runner, he knows he has to be available and wants nothing to do with tech? Easy. It may take a while, but hey, simplicity itself. One or more folks in the team know a contact of his that the guy checks in with, maybe via Spirit, frequently. Not tough, and it gives him his freedom. If he's living out in the barrens or even under a friggin' bridge in the downtown, doesn't matter. So he gets occasionally picked up by or hassled by the man. That IS life on the Streets in 2040+, it happens, and when it does it's a pain in the rump. But unless he's just pissed on a major player, be it Corp, Government, Yak or whatever, he better being laying very low anyway and as a true Street person there simply ARE less traces of him to be found in any case. Where is the fraggin' problem with this?

He's not instantly available. Ok. So? The character misses out on some opportunities. Yep, he does. PERIOD, full stop, the man will miss out on things. That was his choice. As a GM I'm trying to accommodate my Players desires. I'm not trying to use logic as an excuse to hide behind about why I can't! People, there are friggin' dragons in the game. There is active and accepted magic! If you are going to hide behind the flimsy facade of logic as to why you as GM can't do something that is NOT unreasonable and doesn't grant advantages incommensurate to the their converse, then you might just as well get rid of the fraggin' dragons and the magic and the bloody whole shebang.


Isshia

Would you force any player to have his PC go out of character to work with such a neo-luddite? Despite all the disadvantages?

I can't see many professional runners who would work with such a character.

I can see many. Accepting the fact that sometimes he might not be available is just also part of the game, part of the Runners life. People don't just sit around waiting to be called. That's metagamey. Sometimes they are working on other things when they get the call they can get so easily, because they have more input.

Make them do it? HELL NO!!! But then when the characters are getting made the Players aren't existing in a vacuum. They are adult enough to know that if they present a concept for a character that the other Players don't want to have to deal with, that a compromise will HAVE TO be be made, or the concept gets scrapped. And this is with ANY concept, be that concept what it may. Including the one often seen as a "Runner " archetype, the "psychopath" personality.

We usually try to accommodate one another and my players know that I won't punish them for being creative by withholding scenarios because they couldn't get hold of guy X when, ultimately, I as GM am the one dictating how hard he IS to get hold of.


Isshia

How do runs ever get pulled off in those areas if there is this kind of overwatch present? Why doesn't overwatch just do a quick check on SINs in the entire area to see if they're valid? That'd keep all shadowrunners out, since the usefulness of a SIN is pratically nothing when it actually gets checked.

And if you'd like to be one, you'd best be taking incompetent in at least computers, if not multiple skills, as neo-luddites are given as an example for that.


As any other eccentric? Sure. As useful as a pro? Not a chance, hes unreliable to be found, or maybe he got thrown in jail for the night.


Not much fun for the player to show up to play, not get a phone call, and just sit watching you guys play the rest of the night. As a GM, you should let him do it if he wants to yes.... but you should also let him know, he might not always be involved, and that would suck.


No, they don't sit around, they live their life hoping someone finds them a job.


No one said force the player to get one. We advised him to explain the hardships of not having one, and how that would be very inconvienient.


Accommodating is one thing. If I choose to play a quadriplegic with a permanent hospital lifestyle, what runs would you let me go on? No, I'm not awakened, nor a TM, and no hacking/computer skills at all. Can I play? No? But you said you were accommodating.

We do not use the SIN check rules as written, so fake SINs hold up better.

You can't not have a sin cause you will get screwed, but we made fake sins work better so its ok to screw people without one worse.

Yes. I want people to either have a fake SIN, or a regular SIN to walk around in high-security areas.

My point is, you ramped up security because you changed how fake sins work.

My discussion is from how the rules are written, in which fake sins aren't that good, and as such, you'd be stopping and questioning people for "possibly invalid sins" necessitating a lot more overwatch personal, or less overwatch overall.

IMO time again.


Ohh come on man, think outside of the box. He IS a professional...and as professional as any other Runner. He just has a different quirk. All he needs to be just as useful as any Street Sam doing his Street Sammie things or Hacker doing his is a bit of creativity. THAT is what gets stressed anyway, that is what role playing is all about.

So, he's not in the hospital for three weeks at a time getting new cyberware crammed in his butt. He's no more, and maybe less, likely to be busy than any other guy just waiting for a job, which is what he is doing as well. The "Pro" does not sit around his doss all day either. He gets involved in other things, sometimes little things, like working for the local gang boss as an enforcer to keep them as informal security for his doss. Or whatever else have you. You may be able to get him on the phone in ten seconds instead of getting contacted by a spirit in three hours, but the guy is ready to go, not tied up playing security guard. Keeping permanent things and a permanent place and all the other stuff that goes with maintaining the "Pro" lifestyle also has it's flip side.

And hey, your Pro sitting around waiting for a job has no hobbies? No life outside of Running? That is being a Pro?

That is being a metagame archetype, not a pro.


Isshia

I'd not be worried about him being incommunicando as much as about him being a liability on any run due to his unwillingness to use standard gear for communciation and information sharing.

Like I said, I've talked to him and gotten it clarified a little more. He's not Amish, or a Luddite, he's not even an actual technophobe, his character just doesn't like high tech. He'll use it if he has to (which is why he will have a crappy commlink, out of necessity...he'll barely touch the thing.) He just wants to focus on his pursuit of magic, and his character does this by basically going all "vow of poverty" "buddhist monk" style. He wants to own nothing he didn't make and focus on improving his magic. Now this I'm cool with. I've explained that he was given a commlink and fake SIN by the hacker in the group so they can communicate with him and he can stay in touch or runs ( I still had him buy it with his points at chargen, because to me making the hacker give him something that he spent points on so that the Shaman didn't have to spent character points is a cop-out on the Shaman's part) but he doesn't feel the commlink is "his." The Hacker just lets him use it so he can function with the group, so he still falls into his own belief set. This I'm fine with, any of the foci he'll buy at chargen will be considered to be made by him, and he'll be making sure he has the ability to make more as his character. So yeah, we've found a middle ground which is workable...his character is still eccentric, but workable with no game snags to slow the story done et all.

Which is where you need creativity. A simple fix might be to simply always have him partnered up with someone else who DOES use the "standard gear".

Is it a limitation to have such a person? Sure! Can it be an advantage in certain situation? Sure, I can think of several wherein his penchant for doffing tech could be a help. As many as the converse? No, no way. But where they might they might well be hugely important. Hey, they have something like quickening in 4th edition too yes? How about the Mindlink spell? (Sorry, my 4th edition Core Book is out on loan.) How about that for an organic "fix" for the problem?


Isshia

This does sound good. Damned good in fact. Everybody gets to fulfill their ideals and everyone's happy. Win/win.


Isshia

Not always able to be used. But it would work most of the time.

I would love to hear your situations in which not having tech helps.

Quickening still lights you up on the astral, and I don't know about you, but I'd like to make sure I get along real good with someone before they put a near-permanent telepathic connection between us. Still a problem when wards are around.

Okay, got a question, since it seems to come up so often in this topic. How readily apparent is the mage in a group anyway? From the way some of the posts are going it sounds like you couldn't make a stealthy mage, they raise too many "magic flags" That seems kinda off to me, I would figure you could make a magic infiltartion expert as easily as a tech one.

Spelsl are visible on the astral, and so any astral patrol (spirit, mage) can detect them. Wards also block quickened/sustained spells from passing through, and serve as alarms when broken through.

By the same token, guns are visible on the physical, so any physical patrol (guards, animals) can detect them. Doors also block you from passing through, and can serve as alarms when broken through.

If you have so much astral security that a mage can't possibly sneak in, all the time, thats a game choice you've made as GM to make magic weaker via having more security against it.

Not all the time, but any high-security facility will be warded, and astrally patrolled. And you won't be able to use invisibility or physical mask to sneak onto a party of the upper class. The goal is to make those places locations where you need a tam, and not just a few spells, to get into.

By allowing magic to be the answer to everything, and ignoring obvious conters, you make the choice as a GM to have magic be more powerful.

You make it sound as if the astral patrols are entirely unavoidable. And, astral patrols can screw regular infiltration just as well. So how does the non-magical guy avoid getting spotted?

EM Pulse for one. Ohhh, not something standard? You bet ya it isn't. Take away a thing a person relies on, like communications technology, and they are MUCH more up the creek than someone for whom it never was a big deal. Some of our corps set up negative zones just outside of important facilities. Places where tight scrambling technology is employed to louse up the day of those not prepared for it. In such areas the Corp of course, has IT'S people ready for the situation.

As to the problem with astral space and glow effect, you just covered it in your reply to Fuchs. If you are going to nerf magic and let tech stand as is, of course tech rules. If you find ways of limiting those pretty tech toys too though (and what corp will avoid THAT certain edge against Runners) you've got a different ball game.

Over reliance on ANY edge will sooner or later turn around and bite you in the posterior.


Isshia

Oh no? No you can't communicate with your team. Where as the other option shown........ you couldn't communicate with your team.

I fail to see how having something that could be disrupted is worse than not having it at all.

Over reliance. Watch what happens with a boxer who relies on a his hand speed being quicker and isn't flexible because he has ALWAYS had the hand speed edge. Put him in a situation where he doesn't and he self destructs, even if he had tons of other advantages with the guy. You REALLY get to see this in certain heavy tactics games, like D&D, where if you put a tank in against something intangible he's utterly stymied.

The guy who isn't used to working within the framework of constant communication doesn't miss it when it's gone. The others do. They VERY LIKELY expend time and attempts t rectify THAT situation, because they are taken out of their comfort zone.

I've seen this in a D&D game where the party usually operated as two separate groups (and often gamed on separate nights as well) where one bunch was used to mind linking before every combat because they relied so heavily on mobility and positioning. The other group did the same except they used a regional dialect (from the distant south) that they all knew that was hugely uncommon in the uncharted north, which was where the two fights I'm about to reference took place. Both found themselves in a magic dead zone and even though the group that wasn't used to using mind link had two mages (the other group had just one) they went along without a hitch while the other team was stymied by the fact that they weren't able to have that constant and nigh instantaneous communication. It was amazing to watch.

The simile here is simple, magic was the stymied groups "technology" and when it was taken away they were just plain stuck...at first, they recovered and did ok, retreated and thought things through, while the "non-tech" team just forged on ahead as always.

Over reliance on ANY edge can hide a trap within it.


Isshia

And in the example you gave for shadowrun... we have a team with everyone able to use commlinks to communicate. In comparison to a team with everyone but one ablet o use commlinks to communicate.

Team 1 loses the ability to use their comms, now they can't talk to each other.
Team 2 loses the ability to use their comms, now they can't talk to each other, and still can't talk to that one guy.

I'm just saying, you lose nothing by having the ability to use the comm network if you want to use it. Having options is good, eliminating them for no reason is bad.

I have a solution your player might really like.

Have him buy a Pager, hacked to run on the current matrix. It's so oldschool, it's like carrying a calculator, and it's probably soldered and taped and crappy looking, but it'll work. He probably won't mind it, as it's so low-tech.

Then have your team's hacker keep a spare commlink of his own that he hands the mage when they're going on a run, for communication and info sharing. Rule that the hacker has control of the commlink (it's slaved to his own) so he can display things on the screen, etc. so the mage doesn't have to know what he's doing. When the run's over, he gives back the tech.

The PC can then say that no, he does NOT own a commlink. He simply borrows someone else's as a tool for the job.

Meta-game have the PC's player pay nuyen for the equipment, so as not to inconvenience the hacker's player, but in-game the equipment belongs to the player.