Shadowrun 4th Ed., is it worthy...? Options

[danant]

First of all as it is my first post on this forum, I'd like to say hallo to everyone.

After many years of separation from Shadowrun, I decided to come back to this great RPG. I went to my cellar and after removing some dust from few boxes I discovered my old SR books (some from the first ed, many from the second and core rules from the third). I know that there is a fourth edition running for few years and here comes my question - is it worthy to purchase a fourth edition? And why?

And perhaps you could briefly (and I mean BRIEFLY) list some changes from SR3 to SR4?

Thanks a lot!

[Cain]

First of all as it is my first post on this forum, I'd like to say hallo to everyone.

After many years of separation from Shadowrun, I decided to come back to this great RPG. I went to my cellar and after removing some dust from few boxes I discovered my old SR books (some from the first ed, many from the second and core rules from the third). I know that there is a fourth edition running for few years and here comes my question - is it worthy to purchase a fourth edition? And why?

And perhaps you could briefly (and I mean BRIEFLY) list some changes from SR3 to SR4?

Thanks a lot!

Dear gods.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

Okay, short answer: the rules are completely different. It's a totally different system. Don't even try to convert characters, just rebuild them from scratch.

[Glyph]

It is a good, playable game. It is not as cumbersome as SR3, but sometimes its simplifications make things more muddled. But unlike the previous editions, it really changes the core mechanics, to the point that Attribute ratings and skill ratings mean different things. At first glance, it looks like the game has been drastically powered down, but it isn't really powered down, just different. The talk about making the game more "street level" doesn't help the first impression. What they were really talking about was concentrating on normal runs rather than the "change the world" adventures that were getting overdone towards the end of SR3.

Major changes - slightly more Attributes, the Karma Pool is replaced with the Edge Attribute, and Target Numbers are replaced with hits on a roll of 5 or better (bonuses and penalties affect your number of dice, instead of the TN, now). For skills, you roll skill plus linked Attribute, now (for example, a street samurai with an agility of 7 and a pistols skill of 5 would roll 12 dice for his skill). There is no more Spell Pool - counterspelling is a separate skill, now. If you have an opportunity to browse an actual SR4 book, pg. 52 has a sidebar that goes over the major changes from SR3.

[Larsine]

And perhaps you could briefly (and I mean BRIEFLY) list some changes from SR3 to SR4?

For veterans of Shadowrun, Third Edition (and the first and second editions!), here’s the lowdown on important mechanical concepts that have changed:
• Dice pools no longer exist in their SR3 form. They are now attribute + skill +/– modifiers.
• The target number for dice rolls is now always 5. Yes, all target numbers. Modifiers add or subtract from dice pools, not the target number.
• Each roll of 5 or 6 is a “hit� rather than a “success.� Success is determined by the number of hits scored.
• The Rule of One is triggered more frequently, and may be triggered even when the roll is successful. See Glitches, p. 55. We feel your pain.
• The Rule of Six no longer applies, except when you are using Edge. See p. 67.
• Open Tests no longer exist.
• A new type of test—Extended Tests—has been added.
• The maximum for natural, unaugmented Physical and Mental attribute ratings is now 6 (plus metatype modifiers).
• Intelligence is divided into two new attributes: Intuition and Logic.
• Quickness is divided into two new attributes: Agility and Reaction (Reaction is no longer a derived attribute).
• Initiative is now a derived attribute (Reaction + Intuition).
• Two new attributes have been added: Edge (luck) and Resonance (for technomancers).
• Magic no longer starts at 6; it must be purchased just like other attributes.
• Bioware and cyberware both reduce Essence, but they are tracked separately and the lesser value counts at half.
• Exclusive Actions no longer exist.
• You may now purchase skill groups—groups of related skills with a cheaper bundled cost.
• All types of combat are now handled as Opposed Tests.
• Condition Monitors are no longer fixed at 10 boxes (see Condition Monitors, p. 65).
• Wound Levels are gone and Damage Codes were changed to a single Damage Value (see p. 152) and an Armor Penetration modifier (see p. 152).
• Matrix attributes and ratings are radically different (see The Wireless World, p. 205).
• Street Index, Legality, Concealability, and Weight have been removed from gear statistics in favor of simplified systems.

Otherwise get the SR4 Quickstart rules from http://www.shadowrun4.com/quickstart/

Lars

[Mithral MAge]

I'm finding I like SR4 better than the previous editions, and I only recently returned as well. After taking a hiatus after running a long SR3 game.

[Cain]

For the record: We on Dumpshock are not allowed to compare editions, since that way only lies flames. We are allowed to discuss rule changes, but not say what we prefer. This edict was passed down by the admins a few years ago, shortly after the release, for very good reasons.

I basically agree with Glyph. The system is playable, it's no worse than any comparable system out there, and it mostly does what it sets out to do. I think it more like a beta than a finished product, though: the system breaks down quickly at the high and low ends. There is some high-quality material published for it as well. For example, I love the Hong Kong section of Runner Havens.

[krayola red]

Like Cain said, if you like running extremely low powered or extremely high powered games, SR4 is gonna disappoint you because of the way the dice system is designed. It is simply not made to handle very small or very large dice pools. Normal games work fine though. You can check out the Quick Start Rules to see how you feel about the system and whether or not its worth it to convert. I'm in the process of trying to modify some of the core mechanics to see if they can be adapted to handle low and high end gameplay, but there's a lot of stuff to consider even with a minor change because everything is intertwined. I am having some success though, but it's likely that some factor that I didn't consider will pop up and bring the whole thing crashing down. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Also, SR4 sucks, SR3 rules, and your mommas are all ugly.

[MYST1C]

Also, SR4 sucks, SR3 rules, and your mommas are all ugly.

Your Momma Fight!

[krayola red]

..."This video is not available in your country"? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[Snow_Fox]

I'm going to be the other side of the coin here. Besides the fact I see the com,plete re-write of rules as a money grab, over all I don't like 4th Ed. BUT there are bits worth salvaging.

What works: Decking/hacking is massivley simplified and reworked. For the first time in 19 years deckers are not going to bring the game to a screaming halt while they do their own thing. I like it. Hacking no longer costs several (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 100K to have the right gear. The whole world is on line now, wireless and for most people it's more commonly used that we do cell phones now. If you want an example, think what they have in GitS.

Spirits/Elementals:these have been scaled down massively. and again it is simpler, no longer having to keep track of different environments for spirits- heath, field etc and mages don't need to have beaucoup nuyen to summon elementals.

But other wise the game play has become more realistic/more cumbersome. for example under the 3rd ed. if you wanted to do X you had a target number set by the GM and you would roll dice based on the particular skill. NOW in 4th ed the same thing happens but in a VERY WW type play you now roll a number of dice based on skill and attirbute. differnet situations meaning different mixes of attirubtes and skills. Lots of poeple like this but I find it more cumbersome, drifting back towards 1st ed where relaism seemed to get in the way of play.

We plan to use the decking rules and simplification of conjuring but otherwise keep to the 3rd ed rules.

[Muspellsheimr]

I have not played Shadowrun 1st - 3rd, so cannot make comparisons. I can say, however, that the more I learn about earlier editions, the more I am glad I started out with 4th.

[Snow_Fox]

yeah, for all I said above, 4th ed got the damn hacking/decking/computer stuff right at long last. the old rules were massivley cumbersome.

[hobgoblin]

SR2+VR2.0 or SR3 mostly had a issue of no effective communications channels between the decker jacked in at home base and the team on-site.

except for that the basic number setup was quite similar to SR4 in that one pitted skills and software vs host/node ratings.

[Ravor]

I like Fourth Edition but you have to remember that the Fixed TN breaks easily as Dicepools grow.

Oh and like every edition, the Matrix Rules were written by someone smoking large ammounts of crack.

[dog_xinu]

ok.. I started wth SR1... I didnt play SR1 too much before going on the SR2 then SR3. and when SR4 came out I was not going to move to it. Then a friend of mine sat me down and made me play it for one day. And I was then hooked. I actually bought the books/pdfs online from his couch before I left his house that day. The genre is the same. But they have streamlined somethings to make playing all characters fun to play. And fun for the whole team. in SR2/3 when the hacker started hacking it was like "ok.. everyone go to a movie then dinner, then call to see if the hacking is over otherwise we will see you next time..." Now it is in realtime with everyone else. Same with the Astral stuff. I really like how they streamlined the system to make it much easier to learn. There is only a few type of "test"s and you just have to apply the right test to the situation. Doesnt matter it is hacking, magic, shooting, driving, smooth talking, whatever. It is one of 3 basic tests.

I am a devote SR4er now. my SR3 books (along with SR1/2) are gathering dust in the bookcase.

dx

[Cain]

*Bites tongue*

Guys, please stop comparing editions. It can only end in flames.

[pbangarth]

No flames, yet, Cain. And the OP question is a legitimate one. It can't be answered without some level of comparison.

Peter

[Method]

I think Cain is just recalling the Dark Times... AKA 2005 when damn near every thread went like this:

OP: "I sure think the Ares Predator is a cool looking gun."
Poster 1: "SR3 is still better and you are stupid."

That about covers it.

Anyway, I started playing in 1989; bought SR1 the week it hit the shelves and have collected just about every book published (in English at least... I missed Wake of the Comet somehow) for all 4 editions thus far. I can say without a doubt that SR4 is by far my favorite edition. Make of that what you will.

[Cain]

No flames, yet, Cain. And the OP question is a legitimate one. It can't be answered without some level of comparison.

Peter

I did answer it without comparisons. Twice.

His question is legitimate, but this doesn't come from me. The flame wars were hideous for Dumpshock. I'm seriously fighting the urge to correct some of the posters on the differences between SR1-3 and SR4.

No flames yet, but it's only a matter of time.

[krayola red]

I forgot to mention that Cain's momma is even uglier than an average ugly momma. Plus she's fat.

[Cardul]

Honestly, I have played and run 2nd through 4th edition. 4th made some radical changes, and, while some people like the Priority system, I like the Build Point system. I have not touched, nor will I touch, the Runner's Companion Karma Gen. I do believe that the Priority system is useful for less math, and quicker character creation, but, at the same time, I much, much prefer the Build Point system for the degree of fine tuning allowed in it.(Karmagen seems like it was put in merely because alot of people had been doing their own house rules for it, signifying some players might like it, but has, instead of answering a demand, generated too many flame wars).

The Hacking/Decking Rules in 4th are fast. It is amazing to play a game where the hacking portion is done with a few quick rolls, and not "The Decker/Hacker starts working, the rest of the group go out for Pizza."

Magic and Drain in 4th is flexible and powerful. Spirit summoning gets a little confusing at times, but...well, it always was. This time, at least, you can summon spirits quickly.

One of the things that seems to get alot of negative reaction is that alot of things are left to GM discretion. However, I know I like how that actually cuts down on the rules lawyering, because, in all those cases, the things that are GM Discresion are things that Rules Lawyers would argue over incesessantly. SR4 is alot less Rules LAwyer friendly then previous editions, which practically required the GM to own every single book ever made, because the players could pull something from an obscure book they did not own just to prove their point. Especially as previous editions pretty much used the same rules.

Biggest thing I miss in 4th Edition: Casting a physical spell from the astral through someone's focus. Seriously..nothing was more fun then seeing that Security Wage-mage in the middle of the sec group with a minor focus, and dropping a hellblast through it.

[Cain]

The Hacking/Decking Rules in 4th are fast. It is amazing to play a game where the hacking portion is done with a few quick rolls, and not "The Decker/Hacker starts working, the rest of the group go out for Pizza."

*Bites tongue again*

SR4 is alot less Rules LAwyer friendly then previous editions, which practically required the GM to own every single book ever made, because the players could pull something from an obscure book they did not own just to prove their point. Especially as previous editions pretty much used the same rules.

This I can challenge without comparing editions. SR4 has relatively few books out, so it's just about impossible to pull out an obscure book. As time goes on and books are added, this will inevitably change. Look at oWoD versus nWod: the original World of Darkness had dozens of books out. It was fairly easy to pull something out of a strange book and rules-lawyer your wan into a power combo. At first, you couldn't do that in the new one; but as books are added, it becomes possible. Eventually, SR4 will be easy to rules-lawyer using passages in obscure books.

[Glyph]

I love SR4, but it is not immune to power combos by a long shot. In addition to completely legitimate builds such as Mr. Lucky, Brick the troll, or the pornomancer, there are plenty of people who attempt to abuse ambiguous (to them) wording in regards to possession spirits, the shapechange spell, machine sprites, martial arts maneuvers, and so on.

[toturi]

SR4 is alot less Rules LAwyer friendly then previous editions, which practically required the GM to own every single book ever made, because the players could pull something from an obscure book they did not own just to prove their point. Especially as previous editions pretty much used the same rules.

Not really. Previous editions were less rules lawyer friendly IMO, because of the sheer amount of obscure rules, when the rules lawyers pull something out to make their point, the GM is much more likely to pull something else out to support his if he had the books. Not so in SR4, ambigious statements remain ambigious and are not likely to be clarified in one way or another due to the lack of supporting material (not the mention the sometimes ungodly awful SR4 FAQ).

[DocTaotsu]

I played some SR2, years of SR3 (via MU* but the rules were the same) and I've recently finished up a year long run of SR4.

I like SR4 a great deal.

I also play fast and loose with rules and SR4 is very forgiving of that style. My sig sums up my understanding of the rules and rules lawyering.

It's also very newbie friendly (I've introduced at least 4 RPG virgins to gaming via SR4, they all intend to continue gaming in the future... my work here is done). Every newbie I brought in was more or less up to speed and having fun by the second session. I will also note that this was my first serious turn behind the screen as a GM. Unlike my previous experiences as a GM/DM I actually had a really good time running the game.

I had fun, my players had fun, they want to keep gaming. *shrugs* That's about all I can ask from a game system.

It IS very different than previous editions. Like you, I hadn't played in a while so cracking SR4 was a shock. I was pretty ambivalent about the whole book (wireless Matrix?) and it took some careful reading and relearning before I felt comfortable with the ruleset. I was also playing with a group that had never played SR before (one player had played a handful of games in SR2) so they had zero expectations aside from the whole "Ork's with assault rifles killed my family" vibe. That's a very different situation than a great deal of the people on these boards (who have been playing SR since time immemorial) so it would be dishonest for me to say that coming at SR4 with fresh eyes is similar to what others may experience.

But liked I said, it worked for me and my group. YMMV and other guarded language.