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danant
First of all as it is my first post on this forum, I'd like to say hallo to everyone.

After many years of separation from Shadowrun, I decided to come back to this great RPG. I went to my cellar and after removing some dust from few boxes I discovered my old SR books (some from the first ed, many from the second and core rules from the third). I know that there is a fourth edition running for few years and here comes my question - is it worthy to purchase a fourth edition? And why?

And perhaps you could briefly (and I mean BRIEFLY) list some changes from SR3 to SR4?

Thanks a lot!
Cain
QUOTE (danant @ Nov 2 2008, 12:15 PM) *
First of all as it is my first post on this forum, I'd like to say hallo to everyone.

After many years of separation from Shadowrun, I decided to come back to this great RPG. I went to my cellar and after removing some dust from few boxes I discovered my old SR books (some from the first ed, many from the second and core rules from the third). I know that there is a fourth edition running for few years and here comes my question - is it worthy to purchase a fourth edition? And why?

And perhaps you could briefly (and I mean BRIEFLY) list some changes from SR3 to SR4?

Thanks a lot!

Dear gods.... eek.gif

Okay, short answer: the rules are completely different. It's a totally different system. Don't even try to convert characters, just rebuild them from scratch.
Glyph
It is a good, playable game. It is not as cumbersome as SR3, but sometimes its simplifications make things more muddled. But unlike the previous editions, it really changes the core mechanics, to the point that Attribute ratings and skill ratings mean different things. At first glance, it looks like the game has been drastically powered down, but it isn't really powered down, just different. The talk about making the game more "street level" doesn't help the first impression. What they were really talking about was concentrating on normal runs rather than the "change the world" adventures that were getting overdone towards the end of SR3.

Major changes - slightly more Attributes, the Karma Pool is replaced with the Edge Attribute, and Target Numbers are replaced with hits on a roll of 5 or better (bonuses and penalties affect your number of dice, instead of the TN, now). For skills, you roll skill plus linked Attribute, now (for example, a street samurai with an agility of 7 and a pistols skill of 5 would roll 12 dice for his skill). There is no more Spell Pool - counterspelling is a separate skill, now. If you have an opportunity to browse an actual SR4 book, pg. 52 has a sidebar that goes over the major changes from SR3.
Larsine
QUOTE (danant @ Nov 2 2008, 09:15 PM) *
And perhaps you could briefly (and I mean BRIEFLY) list some changes from SR3 to SR4?

QUOTE (SR4 page 52)
For veterans of Shadowrun, Third Edition (and the first and second editions!), here’s the lowdown on important mechanical concepts that have changed:
• Dice pools no longer exist in their SR3 form. They are now attribute + skill +/– modifiers.
• The target number for dice rolls is now always 5. Yes, all target numbers. Modifiers add or subtract from dice pools, not the target number.
• Each roll of 5 or 6 is a “hit� rather than a “success.� Success is determined by the number of hits scored.
• The Rule of One is triggered more frequently, and may be triggered even when the roll is successful. See Glitches, p. 55. We feel your pain.
• The Rule of Six no longer applies, except when you are using Edge. See p. 67.
• Open Tests no longer exist.
• A new type of test—Extended Tests—has been added.
• The maximum for natural, unaugmented Physical and Mental attribute ratings is now 6 (plus metatype modifiers).
• Intelligence is divided into two new attributes: Intuition and Logic.
• Quickness is divided into two new attributes: Agility and Reaction (Reaction is no longer a derived attribute).
• Initiative is now a derived attribute (Reaction + Intuition).
• Two new attributes have been added: Edge (luck) and Resonance (for technomancers).
• Magic no longer starts at 6; it must be purchased just like other attributes.
• Bioware and cyberware both reduce Essence, but they are tracked separately and the lesser value counts at half.
• Exclusive Actions no longer exist.
• You may now purchase skill groups—groups of related skills with a cheaper bundled cost.
• All types of combat are now handled as Opposed Tests.
• Condition Monitors are no longer fixed at 10 boxes (see Condition Monitors, p. 65).
• Wound Levels are gone and Damage Codes were changed to a single Damage Value (see p. 152) and an Armor Penetration modifier (see p. 152).
• Matrix attributes and ratings are radically different (see The Wireless World, p. 205).
• Street Index, Legality, Concealability, and Weight have been removed from gear statistics in favor of simplified systems.


Otherwise get the SR4 Quickstart rules from http://www.shadowrun4.com/quickstart/

Lars
Mithral MAge
I'm finding I like SR4 better than the previous editions, and I only recently returned as well. After taking a hiatus after running a long SR3 game.
Cain
For the record: We on Dumpshock are not allowed to compare editions, since that way only lies flames. We are allowed to discuss rule changes, but not say what we prefer. This edict was passed down by the admins a few years ago, shortly after the release, for very good reasons.

I basically agree with Glyph. The system is playable, it's no worse than any comparable system out there, and it mostly does what it sets out to do. I think it more like a beta than a finished product, though: the system breaks down quickly at the high and low ends. There is some high-quality material published for it as well. For example, I love the Hong Kong section of Runner Havens.
krayola red
Like Cain said, if you like running extremely low powered or extremely high powered games, SR4 is gonna disappoint you because of the way the dice system is designed. It is simply not made to handle very small or very large dice pools. Normal games work fine though. You can check out the Quick Start Rules to see how you feel about the system and whether or not its worth it to convert. I'm in the process of trying to modify some of the core mechanics to see if they can be adapted to handle low and high end gameplay, but there's a lot of stuff to consider even with a minor change because everything is intertwined. I am having some success though, but it's likely that some factor that I didn't consider will pop up and bring the whole thing crashing down. spin.gif

Also, SR4 sucks, SR3 rules, and your mommas are all ugly.
MYST1C
QUOTE (krayola red @ Nov 2 2008, 11:15 PM) *
Also, SR4 sucks, SR3 rules, and your mommas are all ugly.

Your Momma Fight!
krayola red
..."This video is not available in your country"? eek.gif
Snow_Fox
I'm going to be the other side of the coin here. Besides the fact I see the com,plete re-write of rules as a money grab, over all I don't like 4th Ed. BUT there are bits worth salvaging.

What works: Decking/hacking is massivley simplified and reworked. For the first time in 19 years deckers are not going to bring the game to a screaming halt while they do their own thing. I like it. Hacking no longer costs several nuyen.gif 100K to have the right gear. The whole world is on line now, wireless and for most people it's more commonly used that we do cell phones now. If you want an example, think what they have in GitS.

Spirits/Elementals:these have been scaled down massively. and again it is simpler, no longer having to keep track of different environments for spirits- heath, field etc and mages don't need to have beaucoup nuyen to summon elementals.

But other wise the game play has become more realistic/more cumbersome. for example under the 3rd ed. if you wanted to do X you had a target number set by the GM and you would roll dice based on the particular skill. NOW in 4th ed the same thing happens but in a VERY WW type play you now roll a number of dice based on skill and attirbute. differnet situations meaning different mixes of attirubtes and skills. Lots of poeple like this but I find it more cumbersome, drifting back towards 1st ed where relaism seemed to get in the way of play.

We plan to use the decking rules and simplification of conjuring but otherwise keep to the 3rd ed rules.
Muspellsheimr
I have not played Shadowrun 1st - 3rd, so cannot make comparisons. I can say, however, that the more I learn about earlier editions, the more I am glad I started out with 4th.
Snow_Fox
yeah, for all I said above, 4th ed got the damn hacking/decking/computer stuff right at long last. the old rules were massivley cumbersome.
hobgoblin
SR2+VR2.0 or SR3 mostly had a issue of no effective communications channels between the decker jacked in at home base and the team on-site.

except for that the basic number setup was quite similar to SR4 in that one pitted skills and software vs host/node ratings.
Ravor
I like Fourth Edition but you have to remember that the Fixed TN breaks easily as Dicepools grow.

Oh and like every edition, the Matrix Rules were written by someone smoking large ammounts of crack.
dog_xinu
ok.. I started wth SR1... I didnt play SR1 too much before going on the SR2 then SR3. and when SR4 came out I was not going to move to it. Then a friend of mine sat me down and made me play it for one day. And I was then hooked. I actually bought the books/pdfs online from his couch before I left his house that day. The genre is the same. But they have streamlined somethings to make playing all characters fun to play. And fun for the whole team. in SR2/3 when the hacker started hacking it was like "ok.. everyone go to a movie then dinner, then call to see if the hacking is over otherwise we will see you next time..." Now it is in realtime with everyone else. Same with the Astral stuff. I really like how they streamlined the system to make it much easier to learn. There is only a few type of "test"s and you just have to apply the right test to the situation. Doesnt matter it is hacking, magic, shooting, driving, smooth talking, whatever. It is one of 3 basic tests.

I am a devote SR4er now. my SR3 books (along with SR1/2) are gathering dust in the bookcase.

dx
Cain
*Bites tongue*

Guys, please stop comparing editions. It can only end in flames.
pbangarth
No flames, yet, Cain. And the OP question is a legitimate one. It can't be answered without some level of comparison.

Peter
Method
I think Cain is just recalling the Dark Times... AKA 2005 when damn near every thread went like this:

OP: "I sure think the Ares Predator is a cool looking gun."
Poster 1: "SR3 is still better and you are stupid."

That about covers it.

Anyway, I started playing in 1989; bought SR1 the week it hit the shelves and have collected just about every book published (in English at least... I missed Wake of the Comet somehow) for all 4 editions thus far. I can say without a doubt that SR4 is by far my favorite edition. Make of that what you will.
Cain
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Nov 2 2008, 07:59 PM) *
No flames, yet, Cain. And the OP question is a legitimate one. It can't be answered without some level of comparison.

Peter

I did answer it without comparisons. Twice.

His question is legitimate, but this doesn't come from me. The flame wars were hideous for Dumpshock. I'm seriously fighting the urge to correct some of the posters on the differences between SR1-3 and SR4.

No flames yet, but it's only a matter of time.
krayola red
I forgot to mention that Cain's momma is even uglier than an average ugly momma. Plus she's fat.
Cardul
Honestly, I have played and run 2nd through 4th edition. 4th made some radical changes, and, while some people like the Priority system, I like the Build Point system. I have not touched, nor will I touch, the Runner's Companion Karma Gen. I do believe that the Priority system is useful for less math, and quicker character creation, but, at the same time, I much, much prefer the Build Point system for the degree of fine tuning allowed in it.(Karmagen seems like it was put in merely because alot of people had been doing their own house rules for it, signifying some players might like it, but has, instead of answering a demand, generated too many flame wars).

The Hacking/Decking Rules in 4th are fast. It is amazing to play a game where the hacking portion is done with a few quick rolls, and not "The Decker/Hacker starts working, the rest of the group go out for Pizza."

Magic and Drain in 4th is flexible and powerful. Spirit summoning gets a little confusing at times, but...well, it always was. This time, at least, you can summon spirits quickly.

One of the things that seems to get alot of negative reaction is that alot of things are left to GM discretion. However, I know I like how that actually cuts down on the rules lawyering, because, in all those cases, the things that are GM Discresion are things that Rules Lawyers would argue over incesessantly. SR4 is alot less Rules LAwyer friendly then previous editions, which practically required the GM to own every single book ever made, because the players could pull something from an obscure book they did not own just to prove their point. Especially as previous editions pretty much used the same rules.

Biggest thing I miss in 4th Edition: Casting a physical spell from the astral through someone's focus. Seriously..nothing was more fun then seeing that Security Wage-mage in the middle of the sec group with a minor focus, and dropping a hellblast through it.
Cain
QUOTE
The Hacking/Decking Rules in 4th are fast. It is amazing to play a game where the hacking portion is done with a few quick rolls, and not "The Decker/Hacker starts working, the rest of the group go out for Pizza."

*Bites tongue again*

QUOTE
SR4 is alot less Rules LAwyer friendly then previous editions, which practically required the GM to own every single book ever made, because the players could pull something from an obscure book they did not own just to prove their point. Especially as previous editions pretty much used the same rules.

This I can challenge without comparing editions. SR4 has relatively few books out, so it's just about impossible to pull out an obscure book. As time goes on and books are added, this will inevitably change. Look at oWoD versus nWod: the original World of Darkness had dozens of books out. It was fairly easy to pull something out of a strange book and rules-lawyer your wan into a power combo. At first, you couldn't do that in the new one; but as books are added, it becomes possible. Eventually, SR4 will be easy to rules-lawyer using passages in obscure books.
Glyph
I love SR4, but it is not immune to power combos by a long shot. In addition to completely legitimate builds such as Mr. Lucky, Brick the troll, or the pornomancer, there are plenty of people who attempt to abuse ambiguous (to them) wording in regards to possession spirits, the shapechange spell, machine sprites, martial arts maneuvers, and so on.
toturi
QUOTE (Cardul @ Nov 3 2008, 02:04 PM) *
SR4 is alot less Rules LAwyer friendly then previous editions, which practically required the GM to own every single book ever made, because the players could pull something from an obscure book they did not own just to prove their point. Especially as previous editions pretty much used the same rules.

Not really. Previous editions were less rules lawyer friendly IMO, because of the sheer amount of obscure rules, when the rules lawyers pull something out to make their point, the GM is much more likely to pull something else out to support his if he had the books. Not so in SR4, ambigious statements remain ambigious and are not likely to be clarified in one way or another due to the lack of supporting material (not the mention the sometimes ungodly awful SR4 FAQ).
DocTaotsu
I played some SR2, years of SR3 (via MU* but the rules were the same) and I've recently finished up a year long run of SR4.

I like SR4 a great deal.

I also play fast and loose with rules and SR4 is very forgiving of that style. My sig sums up my understanding of the rules and rules lawyering.

It's also very newbie friendly (I've introduced at least 4 RPG virgins to gaming via SR4, they all intend to continue gaming in the future... my work here is done). Every newbie I brought in was more or less up to speed and having fun by the second session. I will also note that this was my first serious turn behind the screen as a GM. Unlike my previous experiences as a GM/DM I actually had a really good time running the game.

I had fun, my players had fun, they want to keep gaming. *shrugs* That's about all I can ask from a game system.

It IS very different than previous editions. Like you, I hadn't played in a while so cracking SR4 was a shock. I was pretty ambivalent about the whole book (wireless Matrix?) and it took some careful reading and relearning before I felt comfortable with the ruleset. I was also playing with a group that had never played SR before (one player had played a handful of games in SR2) so they had zero expectations aside from the whole "Ork's with assault rifles killed my family" vibe. That's a very different situation than a great deal of the people on these boards (who have been playing SR since time immemorial) so it would be dishonest for me to say that coming at SR4 with fresh eyes is similar to what others may experience.

But liked I said, it worked for me and my group. YMMV and other guarded language.
Fuchs
I started playing and GMing with SR1, and played all editions since then. We waited with switching to SR4 mostly out of inertia, but I like the new rules - although with a few house rules, like a hard cap on DP.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Cardul @ Nov 3 2008, 07:04 AM) *
Biggest thing I miss in 4th Edition: Casting a physical spell from the astral through someone's focus. Seriously..nothing was more fun then seeing that Security Wage-mage in the middle of the sec group with a minor focus, and dropping a hellblast through it.


that was dropped back in SR3...

a somewhat radical change that didnt get any kind of meta-story cover iirc.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Glyph @ Nov 3 2008, 08:59 AM) *
I love SR4, but it is not immune to power combos by a long shot. In addition to completely legitimate builds such as Mr. Lucky, Brick the troll, or the pornomancer, there are plenty of people who attempt to abuse ambiguous (to them) wording in regards to possession spirits, the shapechange spell, machine sprites, martial arts maneuvers, and so on.


heh, glass cannons and one trick ponies, got to love em wink.gif
Fuchs
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Nov 3 2008, 01:03 PM) *
that was dropped back in SR3...

a somewhat radical change that didnt get any kind of meta-story cover iirc.


And might be the main cause of all the magicl focus rush.
Cain
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Nov 3 2008, 04:05 AM) *
heh, glass cannons and one trick ponies, got to love em wink.gif

"Glass cannons" is a term you could use to describe just about every character in SR4. And as far as "one trick ponies" go, all the characters Glyph describes can and do have full skill sets. That means that have a dice pool of 6-8 in all the major categories, or can substitute for them (e.g., skillwires). It is not difficult to have a character that is both well-rounded and hideously broken at the same time.
Drogos
I know in the good old days of grounding, I never used a focus. I actually didn't even look at them in 3rd because of it.

As for the OP, playing 2nd and 3rd is great (I have played a lot more 3rd than 2nd though). I miss some of the things from 3rd. But 4th made a lot of things more streamlined and fun. I like fast and loose and it is much easier to do. There are times I pine for my combat, spell and decking pools, but then I remember that's what edge is for. Sometimes I miss 9M, but 5P -1 AP works. I'm an avid fan of SR and the 4th edition is truly the only 4th edition of any ruleset worth playing. It's great fun and intuitive, which I think equals good.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 3 2008, 01:24 PM) *
"Glass cannons" is a term you could use to describe just about every character in SR4. And as far as "one trick ponies" go, all the characters Glyph describes can and do have full skill sets. That means that have a dice pool of 6-8 in all the major categories, or can substitute for them (e.g., skillwires). It is not difficult to have a character that is both well-rounded and hideously broken at the same time.


skillwires, or any similar system where one can use one resource (money) to do what one normally only do with another (karma, xp, build points), things get troublesome. this as one can basically build the character at double build rate.

iirc, skillwires have always been a pain in the backside in SR. i recall reading posts about its problematic nature as far back as SR2, when i had barely gotten started.
MYST1C
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Nov 3 2008, 01:35 PM) *
iirc, skillwires have always been a pain in the backside in SR. i recall reading posts about its problematic nature as far back as SR2, when i had barely gotten started.

I've never understood why skillwires weren't capped somehow. In CP2020 is was so simple: Natural skills went up to rating 10 while skillchips only went up to 3 (and were only available for some skills).
DocTaotsu
Wow, am I the only one who finds playing a glass cannon incredibly boring? Being able to throw YES dice in a narrow set of scenarios is fun and all but what the hell do you do during all the other scenes?

*shrugs*

Maybe I'm just a sucker for the well rounded runner.

Ooo! And to the OP, a good house rule is the Charimsa X2 free contact points, helps people make a bit of a wider or deeper circle of "friends".

Also, karmagen from Runner's Companion is supposed to be better balanced than the RAW karmagen system. I haven't used it yet but the rules seem to read well.
Wesley Street
SR4 released three years ago. I'm curious as to what the average time frame of acceptability is for conservative purchasers of RPGs. Anyone out there still hanging on to SR2?

Shadowrun was one of the Top 5 Selling RPGs for 2007. I can't find 2008 stats but I'm still looking. SR3 ceased production in August of 2005.
QUOTE
ICv2 Top 5 Role-Playing Games
1. Dungeons & Dragons
2. Warhammer 40K Roleplay
3. World of Darkness
4. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
5. Shadowrun

We all have our personal opinions about what works and what doesn't for our own games but numbers don't lie.

EDIT
DocTaotsu
Hey we made the top 5! Go SR!

I'm giving it a couple more years (or the release of SR5, something I don't think is even in the works). People are reluctant to change after spending years whacking the shit out of the previous system until it does what they want and they've adapted to it quirks (See: SR3R). With the amount of blood, sweat, and tears people have poured into SR3 (which is certainly one of my favorite system) I'm unsurprised that they're reluctant to adopt. There isn't a clear continuum between the two other than it still uses d6's and canon history.

Not being one of those people made adopting SR4 easy for me. Much like I adopted D&D 3.5 because I missed the release of 3 and how I probably won't adopt 4 (until everyone else is playing it) because 3.5 works well enough for my average dungeon hack.

I do think that reports of SR4 being more problematic than any of the earlier editions to be a bit overblown. I have clear and vivid memories of RAW SR3 kicking me up and down the streets while it's lapdog Rigger3 tore at my limbs. Similar memories abound concerning the decking rules which, in at least three cases, caused members of my party to vomit graphing calculators.
Cantankerous
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Nov 3 2008, 03:26 PM) *
SR4 released three years ago. I'm curious as to what the average time frame of acceptability is for conservative purchasers of RPGs. Anyone out there still hanging on to SR2?

Shadowrun was one of the Top 5 Selling RPGs for 2007. I can't find 2008 stats but I'm still looking. SR3 ceased production in August of 2005.

We all have our personal opinions about what works and what doesn't for our own games but numbers don't lie.

EDIT



No, numbers don't lie, but they also give no indication of what works and what doesn't. They are, in general, MASSIVELY more indicative of who's advertising budget is largest. Take a good look at that list again and then do a comparison of who spent the most in advertising and you'll find that the two are identical in basis.

Isshia
Cain
QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ Nov 3 2008, 06:07 AM) *
Wow, am I the only one who finds playing a glass cannon incredibly boring? Being able to throw YES dice in a narrow set of scenarios is fun and all but what the hell do you do during all the other scenes?

*shrugs*

Maybe I'm just a sucker for the well rounded runner.

Like I said, I've seen an awful lot of "one trick ponies" that *were* well-rounded.
DocTaotsu
Ah misread that section.

<Edit: No wait, a quick search of the forums reveals your stance on this issue. As Grinder has asked, we won't retread old ground>

Still misread what you said though.
Grinder
Not again that topic, please.
Wesley Street
QUOTE (Cantankerous @ Nov 3 2008, 09:43 AM) *
No, numbers don't lie, but they also give no indication of what works and what doesn't. They are, in general, MASSIVELY more indicative of who's advertising budget is largest. Take a good look at that list again and then do a comparison of who spent the most in advertising and you'll find that the two are identical in basis.

Advertising in what way? Other than WotC products like D&D, as it's a house-hold name and WotC runs ads for it in comic books and other nerd niche publications like Wired, how do Warhammer, WoD, and Shadowrun publishers advertise other than word of mouth through the sheer numbers of players, retailers, awards and conventions? Wait, I think I'm onto something there... Anyway, it's mostly viral advertising in the RPG world. It has been since the gaming bubble burst in the mid-1990s. And a weak product doesn't survive in that environment.

As a designer I'm fairly perceptive to nerd marketing and I don't see big money ad campaigns for the non-D&D products. I've never even seen a Shadowrun cardboard display rack in a bookstore, hobby store or comic book shop.
Adam
Most of our advertising, at this point, is through game industry publications.

Of course, it's important not to conflate marketing and advertising -- doing POP displays for stores would be marketing, our convention presence is marketing, etc.

I'm generally pretty suspicious of ICv2's sales stats, though. Watching them for years and knowing what I know of our sales figures, sales figures for companies I've worked for, and some other companies ... they don't add up. There is no equivalent of "Soundscan" in the game industry, so any best-seller lists you'll see are likely flawed in a variety of ways.

[That said, damned confident that as a line, Shadowrun would be one of the top-selling lines of the year in 2008]
hobgoblin
QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ Nov 3 2008, 03:42 PM) *
I do think that reports of SR4 being more problematic than any of the earlier editions to be a bit overblown. I have clear and vivid memories of RAW SR3 kicking me up and down the streets while it's lapdog Rigger3 tore at my limbs. Similar memories abound concerning the decking rules which, in at least three cases, caused members of my party to vomit graphing calculators.


ah yes, rigger3. supersonic van's and nuclear powered super-carriers that could not be reproduced by the build rules anyone (the parts where all there, but they didn't fit the schematics)? wink.gif
hobgoblin
QUOTE (MYST1C @ Nov 3 2008, 03:05 PM) *
I've never understood why skillwires weren't capped somehow. In CP2020 is was so simple: Natural skills went up to rating 10 while skillchips only went up to 3 (and were only available for some skills).

if one only go by the BBB, one cant use edge on skillwired skills. however, augmentation quickly removed that one, and even upped it some more by making move-by-wire a combo of wired reflexes and skillwire...
DocTaotsu
@hobgoblin= Rigger players are historically gear queers and I fully expect them to have notebooks full of stats, mods, and vehicle concepts. I just didn't like how Rigger3 seemed to make that a full time occupation, even between games smile.gif I'll admit, I'm probably not smart enough to fully appreciate the wonders of Rigger 3.

Also, isn't the Aug Skillwire Expert system extremely limited in it's Edge uses? You can only reroll glitches or something right? It's not like you get the full bag of awesome when you get said expert system. I'm also not all that sad that move-by-wire and skillwires come as a bundled deal. Move-by-wire costs like hell in essence and money (everyone's getting it at least alpha grade right? Otherwise you don't really have room for much else...). Course I don't think I've actually played or run a game where players were able to rustle up the money for move-by-wire.
Fuchs
For me, whenever I read "Move-by-wire system" I remember that Shadowtech-table for the side effects: "You lucky lobotomy case, you!" and "Social integration is possible on the level of a family pet"
tete
I would just play the old stuff if you have it and buy the 4e core rule book. They have some good ideas but I think the old core rules are more solid, however the subsystem (magic, matrix, rigging) have great steps forward you can pull from. 4e has some, well er unique ideas of game balance. There are certainly right and wrong ways to spend karma/nuyen on your character to get the most bang for your buck. The old systems had their flaws to but as Cain said 4e feels like a beta. 1e felt like a beta though so if your coming from 1e perhaps there is no real difference other than the subsystems are more playable than ever (not perfect).

[edit] there is also some advantage for new players having fixed dice pools over the old combat pool method, personally I find this less fun even if it is technically simpler.
Warlordtheft
My 2 nuyen...4th ed is a different game than previous editions. For the most part the rules are more easily managed. Time and later sourcebooks will tell if that remains true. The biggest changes are the lack of dicepools (combat, magic, astral, hacking, rigging), the fixed target number, the weapons cause boxes damage instead of damage levels (light moderate, serious, deadly), and the glitch gaming mechanism. Overall I find it easier to run than 2nd (I have 3rd but only played a couple games of it).

As to matrix, by the end of 2nd ed (Matrix 2.0), I could do a matrix run in less than 15 minutes. Though on one complicated issue it could still take a couple of hours..in 4th, a few dice rolls and all is figured out.

the_real_elwood
I always liked 3rd edition, but you can't really go wrong with either. You can always just get the SR4 quickstart rules and try it out with your group to see which they like more. But my group got used to SR3, and I don't think you really could have gotten us to change for good.
Glyph
On the subject of skillwires, activesofts are capped at rating: 4, and the expert skillwire system only lets you use Edge to re-roll failures. Skillwires are good to round out your skillset with tertiary skills, but are not a good idea for your primary specialty. They aren't really that unbalancing.

On glass cannons vs. well-rounded runners, they both illustrate the pitfalls of an open build system. The upside is the incredible versatility and customization that are possible with characters. The downside is that you can mess it up in any number of ways. Viable hyperspecialist builds are possible, but you can wind up with someone who is good at one limited thing, and little else. Viable generalists builds are possible, but it is easy to overgeneralize to the point of uselessness.
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